twin spires and express bets

[lamboguy]

i personally stopped playing tracknet a year ago, but from my understanding they no can accept wagers on calder and churchill downs. the horsemen at churchill are closing their twin spires account's because they can no longer bet on them. ken ramsey does not want to accept the purse cuts that churchill downs have offered, he wants his horses running other places. by churchill's new rules you cannot take a horse out of the place and return to the backside of churchill.

if you guys are in support of the horsemen, and have accounts in either express or twin spires, you might consider closing them, not only to show support of the horsemen there, but because you can't bet on it anyway.

[cj]

What does supporting the horsemen do for bettors?

[race]

i personally stopped playing tracknet a year ago, but from my understanding they no can accept wagers on calder and churchill downs. the horsemen at churchill are closing their twin spires account's because they can no longer bet on them. ken ramsey does not want to accept the purse cuts that churchill downs have offered, he wants his horses running other places. by churchill's new rules you cannot take a horse out of the place and return to the backside of churchill.

if you guys are in support of the horsemen, and have accounts in either express or twin spires, you might consider closing them, not only to show support of the horsemen there, but because you can't bet on it anyway.

I have already closed my accounts with them.
Plus I closed my accounts with HRTV too.

[DJofSD]

if you guys are in support of the horsemen, and have accounts in either express or twin spires, you might consider closing them, not only to show support of the horsemen there, but because you can't bet on it anyway.

Say what? Maybe I'm not following the bouncing ball closely enough. I thought the horsemen were at the center of this TS ADW fiasco. Isn't the horsemen that think they should have a larger slice of the ADW bettor's action?

I think the horsemen are getting a lot already. Maybe I missed it but what's the rational behind their greedy demands? Anything that comes close to being legitimate? Or is it just they feel they deserve it?

[lamboguy]

the horsemen supply the entertainment for the fcility, without them there is no game. before tracknet came along there was no problem with revenue distribution, tracknet is just a new word for taking less money out of the pie that gets distributed back to the horsemen. all the horesmen want is what they got taken away from them. its like if you work on commision based on the over profit of the item you are selling. for an example, if you work for a car dealership and you work on a 25% commision of the profit and there teh cost of the car is say $10,000 and $2000 out of that is profit then the salesmen would have made $500. throw a middleman inbetween the manufacturer and the dealership, and he charges $800 to the dealership the commision is now down

to $300.

with tracknet they are the middlemen getting a commision, and they are blocking out adw's that don't want to pay their prices, therefore less offtrack handle and less for the horsemen

i hope i have this right, but that's the way it looks to me

[cj]

There is no game without tracks, there is no game without bettors, and there is no game without horsemen.

The horsemen, in my opinion, don't deserve any more money. The purses would be better if we ran fewer, but more competitive, races. Any attempt to cut race dates and the number of races is fought tooth and nail by the horsemen. This keeps betting down in my opinion. They want to suck up purses in five and six horse fields. Why should I support that?

[lamboguy]

every point here is going to be a valid one. the whole game needs revamping from head to toe. the game needs a commision behind it that has teeth.

the NTRA has been around for about a decade now, the only thing they have accomplished is the slogan "GO BABY GO"

[DJofSD]

They want to suck up purses in five and six horse fields. Why should I support that?

My sentiments exactly. Purses are paid out to 5th, why would any one want to run in a race with more of a chance to not picking up a piece? What are we running here a welfare state?

[BIG49010]

every point here is going to be a valid one. the whole game needs revamping from head to toe. the game needs a commision behind it that has teeth.

the NTRA has been around for about a decade now, the only thing they have accomplished is the slogan "GO BABY GO"


I have to agree with that, and that is what is happening to the fan base!

[lamboguy]

why not start by only paying purses based on the first 3 finishers. lets see how many hobeaus will run their hores for no money, a matter of fact why not make everyone put money in their account's for jockey fee's instead of it coming out of the purses.

[Kelso]

the horsemen supply the entertainment for the fcility,

<snip>

i hope i have this right,Not quite.

The entertainment is the racing. The tracks supply the races. The horsemen supply the horses ... nothing more.

Tracks own all the races. Tracks make their money from the races they own. Horsemen own all the horses. Horsemen make their money from the horses they own.

The horsemen do NOT own the races. The tracks do not own the horses. Horses owned by horsemen run in races owned by tracks.

The tracks supply the entertainment to players in order to compete for their wagering dollars. The horsemen supply the horses to tracks in order to compete for their purses.

Takeout is won by successful tracks. Purses are won by successful horsemen. Ne'er the twain should meet.

[Kelso]

matter of fact why not make everyone put money in their account's for jockey fee's instead of it coming out of the purses.Might be because it's the horsemen who are competing for the purses, not the players. The players are competing for the pools. The horsemen pay for the jockeys. The players pay for the tracks.

Two completely different pots of money. And ne'er the twain should meet.

[NoCal Boy]

Tracks do not own the races. Tracks apply to the relevant state racing commissions for race dates. For example, Hollywood Park applies to the CHRB for race dates in the spring and fall. The CHRB evaluates the application and then places conditions on its approval. Those conditions are either agreeable or not to the track and then race dates are approved. A track does not own the races in the true sense of ownership.

[startngate]

Not quite.

The entertainment is the racing. The tracks supply the races. The horsemen supply the horses ... nothing more.

Tracks own all the races. Tracks make their money from the races they own. Horsemen own all the horses. Horsemen make their money from the horses they own.

The horsemen do NOT own the races. The tracks do not own the horses. Horses owned by horsemen run in races owned by tracks.

The tracks supply the entertainment to players in order to compete for their wagering dollars. The horsemen supply the horses to tracks in order to compete for their purses.

Takeout is won by successful tracks. Purses are won by successful horsemen. Ne'er the twain should meet.

Might be because it's the horsemen who are competing for the purses, not the players. The players are competing for the pools. The horsemen pay for the jockeys. The players pay for the tracks.

Two completely different pots of money. And ne'er the twain should meet.

While I don't always agree with you on everything Kelso, this might be the best (and most simple) way of looking at this situation I have seen posted.

Bravo mate! :ThmbUp:

[Kelso]

Tracks do not own the races. Tracks apply to the relevant state racing commissions for race dates.Silly word games won't work, either.

Racing authorities give permissions to tracks to CREATE races. Once created, those races are OWNED by the entities that created them ... i.e., they are owned by the tracks. Once a race is created by a track, all risks of ownership are on the track and the track only. The rewards should be uniquely with the tracks, as well.

[Kelso]

Bravo mate! :ThmbUp:Thank ya kindly, mate.

[Tom]

The whorsemen are destryoing hte game with their greed. We are approachin welfare for stables with all the crappy races being carded, lousy horses being bred, and purse money to losers.

Tracks provide parking, seats, tables, wagering windows, consessions, programs, TV's, simulcasting....the whorsemen show up with a nag and needle and want the world to bow down and throw money at them. Time to treat them for what they are - the "help."

Winner take all on purses. Reward winning, screw losers.

[Murph]

Say what? Maybe I'm not following the bouncing ball closely enough. I thought the horsemen were at the center of this TS ADW fiasco. Isn't the horsemen that think they should have a larger slice of the ADW bettor's action?

I think the horsemen are getting a lot already. Maybe I missed it but what's the rational behind their greedy demands? Anything that comes close to being legitimate? Or is it just they feel they deserve it? Horsemen want and deserve the same cut of the take from ADW wagers as they get from on track and OTB wagers. The tracks only want to benefit from their products. There is a fantastic economic impact provided by horsemen to the national economy and the ag sector in particular. If tracks will not maintain their share of the purse account from ALL wagering, then the horsemen should not allow them to profit from their horses racing.

Here's some notes from a McClatchy Tribune article on the farm bill subject.


Published on Saturday, May 10, 2008 by McClatchy Newspapers (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/257/story/36504.html)

Farm Bill Includes Tax Breaks for Horse Racing Industry (http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/10/8855/)

By Halimah Abdullah

WASHINGTON - Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., netted tax breaks for the thoroughbred horse racing industry in the farm bill worth $126 million over the next 10 years, a provision that helped guarantee his support for the hotly debated bill.
-------
“While many Americans identify the horse industry as one of Kentucky’s signature industries, its economic impact extends well beyond the borders of the commonwealth,” McConnell said.
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According to the Department of Agriculture, horses are Kentucky’s largest agricultural product. The industry contributes $3.5 billion to the state’s economy, directly employs more than 50,000 Kentuckians and contributes approximately $39 billion a year to the U.S. economy, according to the American Horse Council, a Washington-based association that represents the industry.

No matter how big Churchill Downs becomes, they cannot match the impact of horsemen on the lives of others who depend on the industry. The tracks can survive by dividing the wagering profits just the same as is done for on track wagers. The horsemen have some clout and they will not be broken by a purse cut for many years. I can grow a whole lot of alfalpha for very little cost beyond my labor.

Race tracks need to earn our business with better facilities, service and racing information. That is, if they want to stay in the horse race wagering business. Horsemen and bettors are here to stay and we'll take our business to the tracks that will share the take properly.

Murph

[Indulto]

The whorsemen are destryoing hte game with their greed. We are approachin welfare for stables with all the crappy races being carded, lousy horses being bred, and purse money to losers.

Tracks provide parking, seats, tables, wagering windows, consessions, programs, TV's, simulcasting....the whorsemen show up with a nag and needle and want the world to bow down and throw money at them. Time to treat them for what they are - the "help."

Winner take all on purses. Reward winning, screw losers.:lol:
Right, Tom.
ADW bettors like yourself should get down on your backsides in boxer shorts and thank those tracks for a) the lack of viewable seating near large monitors you can't hear to view highly-profitable simulcasts, b) high-priced, low-quality concessions including distant parking without shuttles, c) overpriced programs and PPs, d) surly tellers, and of course e) a total lack of respect for anything that moves in the grandstand.

[rrbauer]

My sentiments exactly. Purses are paid out to 5th, why would any one want to run in a race with more of a chance to not picking up a piece? What are we running here a welfare state?

Did you know that in Calif that if you finish lower than 5th you get "appearance" money instead of purse money? Paid for by a 1/2 point raise in exotic takeout 4 years ago. The increase in takeout was supposed to provide workers-comp relief. Instead, they made it into general welfare for the horsemen.

[sandpit]

My sentiments exactly. Purses are paid out to 5th, why would any one want to run in a race with more of a chance to not picking up a piece? What are we running here a welfare state?

Actually, many tracks pay down past fifth place, but it sometimes it ends up being some paltry $, depending on the purse, but it usually covers the lasix (and whatever other drugs they need to get around there :eek:) and jocks mount, at least.

[BigJake]

This whole CD vs. the horseman deal is like the American Axle and GM strikes going on right now. IMHO, if you don't like the conditions at the place you "work" go find another place to "work". If you are not being compensated at the true market value, you can go somewhere else and be compensated.

If the horseman don't like the conditions, go to another track. IN, OH, and IL all have tracks within driving distances of Louisville.

The UAW workers at American Axle were being asked to take a $14 an hour pay cut. They don't want to take it so they strike. However, I believe that if they could make same wage (before the $14 pay cut) in the open market they would just leave. They can't make that much in the open market so they strike to try and work out a deal where they keep a job where they are being over paid.

I know I've wandered off here, but the same goes for the horseman. They can't get better purses at other tracks so they fight to be overpaid at CD. Don't get me wrong, CD is not the "good guys" here. Nor the victims. They suck just like everyone else that has a hand in the current direction of this industry.

Hi, I'm BigJake. That's my opinion and it oughta be yours. ;)

[Kelso]

HoThere is a fantastic economic impact provided by horsemen to the national economy and the ag sector in particular. Oh, spare us the plea for admiration. Thinking people fully understand that horsemen do what they do because they enjoy it and/or because they hope to make money at it. You don't do it for the country, the people or any other unselfish reason. (Nor, by the way, does any thinking person expect you to.)


If tracks will not maintain their share of the purse account from ALL wagering, then the horsemen should not allow them to profit from their horses racing.Now you're showing a spark of insight, Murph. Attaboy! If the horsemen don't like what a track is offering, they don't have to race there. Go someplace else. (OTOH, you don't think that the tracks owe you guys a place to play your games ... and to make huge, guaranteed incomes while you're playing them ... do you?)

[startngate]

Horsemen want and deserve the same cut of the take from ADW wagers as they get from on track and OTB wagers. The tracks only want to benefit from their products. There is a fantastic economic impact provided by horsemen to the national economy and the ag sector in particular. If tracks will not maintain their share of the purse account from ALL wagering, then the horsemen should not allow them to profit from their horses racing.


You are correct, they should get the same cut from the ADW wagers. Actually, to define "same" I would allow a small amount to the ADW provider, so lets use the word "similar" instead.

Here's the thing though ... THEY ARE.

How do I figure? Simple, from your premise "on track and OTB wagers". In the case of CD, TrackNet is supposedly charging 8% host fee, of which the horsemen get half. They are also charging a 7% source market fee, of which the horsemen get half. That's 7.5% for each. As far as an on-track wager, the horsemen might be getting 8% or 9%, but I don't think .5% to 1.5% to the ADW is out of line, but even if you do, that amount is more than made up for by the increase in host fees which cover ALL wagers.

The gap might be a little larger when you are talking about someone at CD betting on Arlington, but in that case the horsemen from Arlington are benefiting from the higher host fee TrackNet is now charging. But each horsemen's group doesn't care if "other" horsemen get some benefits, it's just about them.

The problem is the horsemen want the 6.5% to 7% for purses on ALL wagers from EVERYWHERE. Even from the customers that live 200 miles from the nearest facility. Tell me why they deserve ANY of that money.

Looking at the math it's pretty clear to me that an ADW doesn't make much in terms of profit on wagers that happen in source market areas. They make their "profit" from people that don't live close enough to make it to the track every day. And they should.

Kelso is right (again). If the horsemen don't want to let the tracks profit from their horses running, fine. They can ship all their horses to a farm someplace, and let them run around in a pasture.

It's not just the TrackNet tracks that don't want to agree to the THG demands. Presque Isle Downs isn't on anyone's schedule either right now, and more tracks will fall by the wayside in this battle. The tracks can outlast the horsemen easily in this fight. Remember, purse accounts are tied to handle, so if handle goes down because they can't send signals to everywhere they want to ... guess what, the purses will get cut.

Bad for horsemen.

On the other hand, if the track can't make make it on the lower revenue, it will close.

Guess what ... yep, bad for horsemen too.

You can say that no matter how big CD gets they will never have the economic impact of the horsemen? How big is that impact going to be if there are no tracks to race at?

[lamboguy]

i just wonder who was behind the tracknet to begin with? what a brilliant brainstorm! they just like the company that the electric comany's call "service providers", and the consumer winds up paying more.

obviously the tracknet is there for the benefit of horsemen and horsewagering fans. how could the racing world have lasted the whole 20th century without tracknet? tracknet is such a great invention that there is already talk as to where the kentucky derby's venue switches to next year. i am hearing Presque Isle's would be happy to host the event. judging by the price of CHDN stock, their shareholders must be real happy with the progress and future for their fine led company. i am sorry not to mention magna entertainment, MECA. that beatiful gem is only down about 90% this year alone. i want to congradulate the fine people behind magna for being able to keep that stock on a listed exchange.
oh yes teh people that run those 2 company's have benefited the fans and their shareholders, not to mention some top senior people inside their respective company's that have received pay increases this year

[InControlX]

Putting aside choosing a dog in this fight for the moment, would anybody venture a guess as to what the final outcome will be?

Here's my prognosis... Higher takeout and lower tote payoffs for ADW and out of region OTB wagers. This is already the case at some OTBs. I think this will result because the party that loses in this deal, the handicapper, will not be represented in the court rooms.

ICX

[Zman179]

if you guys are in support of the horsemen, and have accounts in either express or twin spires, you might consider closing them.

Are you kidding me?!? We're talking about the horsemen who would willingly raise the takeout that fans pay so that they could make more money. And any time the horsemen try to battle against track management, it's always the fan who winds up losing in the end.

I could give a rats ass about the horsemen because they've already proven many times over that they don't give a rats ass about me. TwinSpires gives me free video and free pp's of the races. Horsemen don't give anything for free to their fans, never have and never will...and I'm supposed to support the horsemen by closing out my Twin Spires account. :lol: :lol: :lol: