Jill Byrne on O'Reilly Factor: Video Link

[JustRalph]

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?videoId=96901&sMPlaylistID=

In case you missed it..................

[BombsAway Bob]

thanks, Ralph...T.O.F. is "V-Chip Blocked" at my house, so I missed it!

[46zilzal]

thanks, Ralph...T.O.F. is "V-Chip Blocked" at my house, so I missed it!
You saved your family a lot of loud nonsense then!

[Marshall Bennett]

Thanks so much Ralph , the wife had to watch the stars dance and I missed it .

[lamboguy]

i am very sad for eightbells, she truly was a champion. i have to disagree with jill byrne on this one though. she claims there was nothing that could be done. i think she is dead wrong. kentucky does not allow banamine before a race. the way that horse travels, she was the reason why banamine is used. kentucky still allows anabolic steroids, but not a thrapeutic drug banamine.

[joanied]

i am very sad for eightbells, she truly was a champion. i have to disagree with jill byrne on this one though. she claims there was nothing that could be done. i think she is dead wrong. kentucky does not allow banamine before a race. the way that horse travels, she was the reason why banamine is used. kentucky still allows anabolic steroids, but not a thrapeutic drug banamine.

HUH :confused: what are you saying?

[lamboguy]

i didn't say that by using banamine would have been a fail safe way of preventing this catostrofic injury. i just said because the way she traveled, a little bit on the rough side, banamine might have helped.

[lamboguy]

as far as the movement goes, i am sure you could see the rider hitting the horse left handed down the stritch because she was drifting towards the rail. i am sure that when she was done racing, before her fracture occured, she was hurting from a race that long with her movement. my contention would be that if she was on banomine, she would not have been hurting.

i am not blaming anyone for this, but if it was in differnt jurisdictions banamine would have been allowed.

[Rackon]

Have you noticed that 8B wanted to lug in and hug the rail in the stretch in her other races too? And in the mornings?

Jones says she was checked, checked again and rechecked, and was perfectly sound; she raced only on lasix in the KD - no painkillers, no steroids cuz she didn't need them.

He says the luggin in was a habit she got into early in her career and was not a sign of lameness or body soreness.

[lamboguy]

i took this view point only because the injury took place when she slowed up after the race in the gallop out. maybe i am wrong, but i will guarantee you alot of other people in the racing industry feel the same way as i do.

[Shenanigans]

i didn't say that by using banamine would have been a fail safe way of preventing this catostrofic injury. i just said because the way she traveled, a little bit on the rough side, banamine might have helped.

Banamine would have not helped one bit. In fact, the scene could have been uglier with the use of banamine. Horses on banamine have been known to get up and continue running with broken legs.

[Marshall Bennett]

Banamine would have not helped one bit. In fact, the scene could have been uglier with the use of banamine. Horses on banamine have been known to get up and continue running with broken legs.
With two broken legs ? Doubt she would have gone very far .

[lamboguy]

i think you missed the point, she did not break her bones during the race, it happened during the gallop out when she could notice pain, and possibly take a bad step. all i have said is that if she had banamine in her, she might not have felt pain. this horse had to run a mile and a quarter, not only does she lug inward on her stretch run, she doesn't look like she is a perfect mover, that is quite common with horses that size, she looked quite huge to me.

i have a broodmare that is a broad brush mare, also real big and an awkward traveler, i chose to stop training and keep her as a broodmare. she has produced 3 great looking foals so far. the first one i sold for big money. my mare went alot worse than eightbells did though, but was as big as her.

[pandy]

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?videoId=96901&sMPlaylistID=

In case you missed it..................

I'm surprised that Jill defended the breeding industry. I still don't see how inbreeding can't be a factor in these increasingly fragile horses. Everyone knows that while inbreeding can create beautiful animals, it also leads to problems, even with dogs and cats, who are inbred and often have serious physical defects.

When I first started following racing about 35 years ago, the average racehorse was much more durable, and appeared to have stronger legs. If you look at photos or paintings of Citation, Man O War, Seabiscuit, you can clearly see that they had stronger looking legs. I have a photo of Citation, a powerful horse with muscular legs, and he looked like he could go 15 rounds with Joe Frazier.

[lamboguy]

100% correct statement pandy. they have inbred for speed, speed, speed.

look at your 2 yo in training sales now, if you don't go 10 1/8 you don't get the money. it is a basic miracle for the horse to last out of those sales. one thing good about adena springs is that the horses go in 13. frank doesn't push his horses for speed.

[joanied]

Banamine?? geeze...no, no, no. You run a horse on banamine, they feel no pain, and that just makes the situation worse. Pain meds & racing do not mix!!



I wonder if this happened because in her gallop out, she was way over towards the outside rail...maybe, just maybe, in working the track, there may have been an inconsistancy in that part of the track, and she stepped on a place that was deeper that the rest of the track...just a thought.

[lamboguy]

there is to much racing going on now. truth is that without the drugs the horseracing population would be even lower than it is now. Pndy has it right, you have to stop breeding for speed, and breed for longetivity. years ago horses ran every 6 days and didn't have the injury's the horses have today. when you have horses that make the pace in 21 1/5 seconds there are going to be horses that try to chase after them. that's one part of the injury equation. take away the bute, lasix, banamine, clembuterol, all forms of steroids, now see what you have. it would make owning horses more feaseable as well. these crazy vet bills are ruining the horses as well as the game

[Kelso]

there is to much racing going on now. truth is that without the drugs the horseracing population would be even lower than it is now. Pndy has it right, you have to stop breeding for speed, and breed for longetivity. years ago horses ran every 6 days and didn't have the injury's the horses have today. when you have horses that make the pace in 21 1/5 seconds there are going to be horses that try to chase after them. that's one part of the injury equation. take away the bute, lasix, banamine, clembuterol, all forms of steroids, now see what you have. it would make owning horses more feaseable as well. these crazy vet bills are ruining the horses as well as the game

You covered the field with that post, Guy. :ThmbUp:

[Shenanigans]

With two broken legs ? Doubt she would have gone very far .

Going very far isn't the point here. On Banamine, she could have easily got up and started running because the pain isn't as intense. Like I said, it's ugly. I have seen it happen.

[joanied]

Going very far isn't the point here. On Banamine, she could have easily got up and started running because the pain isn't as intense. Like I said, it's ugly. I have seen it happen.

Exactly. As I stated in my post to whoever it was asking about banamine....
pain meds & racing do not mix. Period.

[lamboguy]

i think you guys misunderstood me, i am not in favor of doping up horses with anything. but when you have gone this far over the top with this breeding process, you have horses that are more prone to injuries. in my mind if eight belles had banamine in her, she would still be here today. i am going to reapeat myself again to make it even clearer to you, her injury took place in the gallop out, she must have had pain at that point, and took a bad step because of it. if she felt no pain she would have walked back to the barn, the next morning the trainer would have discovered heat, and lack of eating, and he would have dealt with it then.

if you want to tell me that we are going to change the breeding business, and do what's right for the horses to begin with, i will go along with that. but please don't spin the facts in this case. none of us like the use of banamine or bute, but this would have helped a very sad situation.

[Pace Cap'n]

If horses can't feel pain when medicated, of what use is the whip?

[PaceAdvantage]

If horses can't feel pain when medicated, of what use is the whip?Believe it or not, I don't think the whip (when used properly) causes much (if any) pain to the horse. The infliction of pain is NOT the intent of the whip, despite what PETA may tell you....

Heck, lots of times the jockey ends up striking his own boot, the saddle towel, etc.

[KingChas]

Believe it or not, I don't think the whip (when used properly) causes much (if any) pain to the horse. The infliction of pain is NOT the intent of the whip, despite what PETA may tell you....



About as much pain as a fly swatter on our behind would.
The sound awakens/alerts the horse.
Sounds to spectators worse than it really is.

Not that I advocate over whipping the horse,but without a whip you would see some horses running into the rails or sharply veering left or right.Much more than you see happen now.
Which could cause mass casualties human and animal.

[Pace Cap'n]

Actually, I do understand the use of a whip, and it is not, I repeat, not, a steering wheel.

The smack with the whip is "the claw of predator", intended to impart to the horse a sense of urgency to escape his pursuer(s).

The "pain" comment above was tongue-in-cheek, as in, "how would a drugged-up horse even know he was being whacked?".

[joanied]

i think you guys misunderstood me, i am not in favor of doping up horses with anything. but when you have gone this far over the top with this breeding process, you have horses that are more prone to injuries. in my mind if eight belles had banamine in her, she would still be here today. i am going to reapeat myself again to make it even clearer to you, her injury took place in the gallop out, she must have had pain at that point, and took a bad step because of it. if she felt no pain she would have walked back to the barn, the next morning the trainer would have discovered heat, and lack of eating, and he would have dealt with it then.

if you want to tell me that we are going to change the breeding business, and do what's right for the horses to begin with, i will go along with that. but please don't spin the facts in this case. none of us like the use of banamine or bute, but this would have helped a very sad situation.

Unfortunately we'll never know. As far as they know, Larry Jones and his crew, she was 100% sound. It's possible she had a hairline crack that didn't show up via any routine xrays, again, we'll never know.
I seriously doubt that if she'd been fed pain meds before the race so she felt no pain (and of course, there was no reason to give her banamine or Bute because she was sound) that it would have stopped her that split second before she went down. Just after racing her heart out, adraniline pumping, nothing short of a broken bone would have made her stop at that exact second.
In all fairness, anything is possible, and again, no way to know... but we've all seen this kind of thing happen, and 99% of the time, the horse doesn't stop at all...even at an easy gallop.
Also, she would have had to have a ton of either banamine or bute in her sytem to stop any feeling of pain... a 'normal' dose of either would not have helped Eight Belles feel no pain. And, once again... there was no reason for her to have any pain meds.
:)

[lamboguy]

i am not advocating drugs at all, i wish i could only turn back the clock on this game ane never allow them to begin with. it no doubt is cruel to have a horse mask their pain so they can run. but these horses are all bred to go real fast now, they are not perfect, adn as bad as i know it sounds to both of us joanie, they need these stupid drugs. and i really mean this, eight belles would still be here today if she had banamine in her 4 hours before the race.

[slewis]

i am not advocating drugs at all, i wish i could only turn back the clock on this game ane never allow them to begin with. it no doubt is cruel to have a horse mask their pain so they can run. but these horses are all bred to go real fast now, they are not perfect, adn as bad as i know it sounds to both of us joanie, they need these stupid drugs. and i really mean this, eight belles would still be here today if she had banamine in her 4 hours before the race.

Without trying to ruffle your feathers... If eight belles had run on banamine, she'd have suffered two broken ankles, had been euthinized, and we'd all be screaming how, had she felt pain or discomfort during the race instead of masking such, she'd have pulled up and been ok??????
This discussion is really suffering overkill.
But I am surprised at someone who is involved in this game (I read your posts) would speculate a different scenario for eight belles if she'd had been doped???
Strange line of thinking?

[lamboguy]

i have been around for awhile, i have been involved with horses before the 2 yo in training sales became so popular. my partner trained a horse in his farm by the name of fourstardave. he only ran and won in saratoga for 8 straight years.
that horse never had voodo medicine in his body, never a drop of lasix. and he was not an expensive yealing or 2 yo purchase. a matter of fact i beleive that richard bomzie bred the horse. he owned the mare broadway joan.
when he first stated training his works were spaced out every 4 or 5 days at a time. today works are maybe once a week. the amount of foundation underneath the horse is not the same today as it was years ago. today there is a hurry to start a horse, they even sometimes run without their knees being closed in the 2 furlong sprint races in march of their 2 yo career's. i would love for someone to show me a statistic of how many of those horses actually make it into their 3 yo career. not knowing i venture to say less than 10%.

anyway the camp is still devided between owners and trainers pushing for their horses to run at 2 or those that wait until their horses have fully developed and they start at 3. the problem shows up when the good horses that started at 2 don't make it into the 3 yo campaign. the ones that start at 3 now have less competion to run with, meaning less chance for improvement. and the 2 yo's that happen to make to 3 are already very seasoned tough horses, and the new 3 yo's have trouble with them.

now throw all this in, add the steroids and drugs into the equation and you see where the problems are

[pandy]

i have been around for awhile, i have been involved with horses before the 2 yo in training sales became so popular. my partner trained a horse in his farm by the name of fourstardave. he only ran and won in saratoga for 8 straight years.
that horse never had voodo medicine in his body, never a drop of lasix. and he was not an expensive yealing or 2 yo purchase. a matter of fact i beleive that richard bomzie bred the horse. he owned the mare broadway joan.
when he first stated training his works were spaced out every 4 or 5 days at a time. today works are maybe once a week. the amount of foundation underneath the horse is not the same today as it was years ago. today there is a hurry to start a horse, they even sometimes run without their knees being closed in the 2 furlong sprint races in march of their 2 yo career's. i would love for someone to show me a statistic of how many of those horses actually make it into their 3 yo career. not knowing i venture to say less than 10%.

anyway the camp is still devided between owners and trainers pushing for their horses to run at 2 or those that wait until their horses have fully developed and they start at 3. the problem shows up when the good horses that started at 2 don't make it into the 3 yo campaign. the ones that start at 3 now have less competion to run with, meaning less chance for improvement. and the 2 yo's that happen to make to 3 are already very seasoned tough horses, and the new 3 yo's have trouble with them.

now throw all this in, add the steroids and drugs into the equation and you see where the problems are


Fourstardave, the ultimate "horse for the course", remember him well. I agree with you entirely.

[rastajenk]

the problem shows up when the good horses that started at 2 don't make it into the 3 yo campaign. the ones that start at 3 now have less competion to run with, meaning less chance for improvement. and the 2 yo's that happen to make to 3 are already very seasoned tough horses, and the new 3 yo's have trouble with them.

Forgive me for being obtuse, but I don't see a problem here. I understand that ideally every horse should have a chance to make it in this game; but the winnowing out process, combined with different rates of maturation, has been going on like this forever.