Moss Interview - Very interesting

[john del riccio]

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3382208&categoryId=2378529

[shanta]

Thanks John.

Very informative piece coming from a man who has much respect in the industry.

I hope they do get rid of the whip. As far as race day meds being allowed only in North America while the rest of world does not what else is new??

Anyone wanting a blueprint for success simply has to look at what goes on here in racing and do the opposite. From Adw's to signal wars to race day meds etc etc

[russowen77]

I sure couldn't agree with him more on the breeding problems. We are breeding stallions that would never have hit the shed if it had not been for meds.

The main paper is AR is now calling for an end to the whip.

[ryesteve]

He made some good points, but I sure wish he hadn't began with "PETA didn't go far enough".

[jonnielu]

I sure couldn't agree with him more on the breeding problems. We are breeding stallions that would never have hit the shed if it had not been for meds.

The main paper is AR is now calling for an end to the whip.

All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.

jdl

[russowen77]

All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.

jdl

You and I sure disagree there. I think the new breeding is our main problem.

Race day meds contribute much to that as we are breeding horses that should not be bred. Any horse that needs pain killers to run should not be in the shed period.

I keep hoping that works like the Greyson jockey club report will make a real impact. We need to go back to breeding sound stock or these problems will keep manifesting themselves and we are all going to be stuck with Artificail surfaces.

[Grits]

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

jdl

There, no doubt, needs to be changes made. And Moss has some excellent thoughts.

Regarding Eight Belles, I didn't want her in the race--not at any time. Unlike many, I did not think she belonged. I felt it was asking too much. Too, her trainer gets on her every morning to exercise her--and he weighs how much? Maybe 180-190, at least. Maybe, indeed, more. He's a big man.

Yes, she was by far at the top of fillies in talent; but, here, with the colts she was not a stand out to win. She was going to have to go too hard, especially with the likes of Brown--with his speed, along with several other front runners. One can see, readily in her past performances, she had won by only 1 1/4 length and 3/4 length at a 1 1/16th in her last two races prior to the Derby.

I think the owner pushed his trainer to the Derby; and he made a grave mistake in doing so. And now, his beautiful, talented filly is dead, while he may be haunted by his comment, "we have to do what's right by our filly."

This filly had more starts--9--than any other horse in the race. She had raced every four weeks since her career began in Sept of 07, with the exception of racing two weeks apart last October as a maiden two year old. It was at this time that she won by 10.

At no time, had she been given a rest, a breather. And what concerned me further, unlike every colt in the race, she had never been beyond a 1 1/16th.

They put her up against males, while, at the same time, adding more distance. And unlike Rags To Riches, who was a fresh horse, TRAINED UP TO THE BELMONT, a bigger filly--in muscle mass, and talent . . . . Eight Belles tried just as hard, running on pure heart and will.

She could have had soundness problems. Maybe not. She could have been in too deep. Maybe not. I have no idea really, but it broke my heart.

She may not have known she was special. But you can be sure of one thing--she knew her gender, she was a filly, and she knew they were all colts. THAT, I'm sure she knew in the paddock at Churchill Downs. And that's what caused me to be devastated. She knew. And she ran hard on what was pure and natural to her. Her female instinct, her raw talent.

I don't feel badly for the owner and trainer, both of whom could've exercised better judgement. Mr.Jones could shed some weight if he's going to insist . . .if he's going to continue, getting on the horses in his barn every morning.

I've not watched this race since Saturday. I watched Brown hit the wire far ahead. I knew he had won it, and in fine fashion. I didn't see Eight Belles go down, nor have I seen a photo of her lying on the track, up close, or by NBC's arial camera. I won't watch any of it. Nor will I argue about her right to belong or not.

I will, though, feel deeply for this filly. I don't like a filly running with colts, I never have, I never will. They don't have the capacity to know they are special. They have the capacity, like you and like I, to know their gender. And that is what broke my heart. She knew.

And bless her tremendous heart for the effort she gave. I hope she'll long be remembered for it.

[jonnielu]

You and I sure disagree there. I think the new breeding is our main problem.

Race day meds contribute much to that as we are breeding horses that should not be bred. Any horse that needs pain killers to run should not be in the shed period.

I keep hoping that works like the Greyson jockey club report will make a real impact. We need to go back to breeding sound stock or these problems will keep manifesting themselves and we are all going to be stuck with Artificail surfaces.

Artificial surfaces are here to stay, why? Confused handicappers put boxcar numbers on the board. Boxcar #'s on the board grow handle more then anything else.

jdl

[jonnielu]

There, no doubt, needs to be changes made. And Moss has some excellent thoughts.

Regarding Eight Belles, I didn't want her in the race--not at any time. Unlike many, I did not think she belonged. I felt it was asking too much. Too, her trainer gets on her every morning to exercise her--and he weighs how much? Maybe 180-190, at least. Maybe, indeed, more. He's a big man.

Yes, she was by far at the top of fillies in talent; but, here, with the colts she was not a stand out to win. She was going to have to go too hard, especially with the likes of Brown--with his speed, along with several other front runners. One can see, readily in her past performances, she had won by only 1 1/4 length and 3/4 length at a 1 1/16th in her last two races prior to the Derby.

I think the owner pushed his trainer to the Derby; and he made a grave mistake in doing so. And now, his beautiful, talented filly is dead, while he may be haunted by his comment, "we have to do what's right by our filly."

This filly had more starts--9--than any other horse in the race. She had raced every four weeks since her career began in Sept of 07, with the exception of racing two weeks apart last October as a maiden two year old. It was at this time that she won by 10.

At no time, had she been given a rest, a breather. And what concerned me further, unlike every colt in the race, she had never been beyond a 1 1/16th.

They put her up against males, while, at the same time, adding more distance. And unlike Rags To Riches, who was a fresh horse, TRAINED UP TO THE BELMONT, a bigger filly--in muscle mass, and talent . . . . Eight Belles tried just as hard, running on pure heart and will.

She could have had soundness problems. Maybe not. She could have been in too deep. Maybe not. I have no idea really, but it broke my heart.

She may not have known she was special. But you can be sure of one thing--she knew her gender, she was a filly, and she knew they were all colts. THAT, I'm sure she knew in the paddock at Churchill Downs. And that's what caused me to be devastated. She knew. And she ran hard on what was pure and natural to her. Her female instinct, her raw talent.

I don't feel badly for the owner and trainer, both of whom could've exercised better judgement. Mr.Jones could shed some weight if he's going to insist . . .if he's going to continue, getting on the horses in his barn every morning.

I've not watched this race since Saturday. I watched Brown hit the wire far ahead. I knew he had won it, and in fine fashion. I didn't see Eight Belles go down, nor have I seen a photo of her lying on the track, up close, or by NBC's arial camera. I won't watch any of it. Nor will I argue about her right to belong or not.

I will, though, feel deeply for this filly. I don't like a filly running with colts, I never have, I never will. They don't have the capacity to know they are special. They have the capacity, like you and like I, to know their gender. And that is what broke my heart. She knew.

And bless her tremendous heart for the effort she gave. I hope she'll long be remembered for it.

Spot on.

The owner deserves to be haunted.

jdl

[Fingal]

You and I sure disagree there. I think the new breeding is our main problem.

Race day meds contribute much to that as we are breeding horses that should not be bred. Any horse that needs pain killers to run should not be in the shed period.

I keep hoping that works like the Greyson jockey club report will make a real impact. We need to go back to breeding sound stock or these problems will keep manifesting themselves and we are all going to be stuck with Artificail surfaces.

Society doesn't allow people to inbreed for a reason, it weakens the bloodlines, magnifies defects. Why should it be any different for horses?

[Marshall Bennett]

Thanks John.

Very informative piece coming from a man who has much respect in the industry.

I hope they do get rid of the whip. As far as race day meds being allowed only in North America while the rest of world does not what else is new??

Anyone wanting a blueprint for success simply has to look at what goes on here in racing and do the opposite. From Adw's to signal wars to race day meds etc etc
Whips are often a tool necessary in guiding horses away from danger , especially sudden moves . To remove this mechanism from jockeys would be a disaster in the long run . I've seen instances where jockeys don't carry whips but they're far and few between . They'll never ban the whip .

[ryesteve]

Boxcar #'s on the board grow handle more then anything else.
Yes, because whales love to continue funneling money into pools where the winners fall outside their spread :rolleyes:

[OTM Al]

Society doesn't allow people to inbreed for a reason, it weakens the bloodlines, magnifies defects. Why should it be any different for horses?

These horses are all inbred and always have been. Perhaps you aren't aware of the history of the breed but all are descended through all of 3 sires, the Godolphin Barb, the Darley Arabian and the Byerly Turk. ALL of them. The Darley is responsible for about 75% of all current TBreds and an even great portion trace their lineage through Eclipse, one of his descendants. The problem is not the inbreeding, it is the breeding of genetically defective horses that seemed ok because they were pumped full of drugs during their racing days.

[Jeff P]

Society doesn't allow people to inbreed for a reason, it weakens the bloodlines, magnifies defects. Why should it be any different for horses?Society doesn't allow use of steroids in human atheletes. Why should it be any different for horses?


-jp

.

[GameTheory]

All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.

Could someone please explain this logic to me? I can't make sense of it. So she was running all out -- I get that. Is running all out against boys different that running all out against girls? Are you saying this filly would never have to run this fast against girls? Fillies don't exert themselves when running against other fillies? Fillies running against stiff competition (boys or girls) are in extra danger? Any filly facing a horse that they can't hope to beat is going to breakdown?

What are you talking about? I really don't get it...

[CyberBet]

Marshall Bennett made a point I was going to make. PETA is out of their mind IMO. They cannot take the whips away from the jockey or we will end up seeing multiple horses and jockeys killed on a daily basis!
Taking the whip from a jockey is akin to taking the steering wheel out of your car before you go to the store.

I can see where a lighter more forgiving whip would have merit. Also there need not be this great reach forward to strike down hard. Most horses will take off if you just give them a tap. After all it is their flight reflex that causes this sudden burst of speed and that can be accomplished rather easily with the flick of the wrist not the shoulder.

[JustRalph]

wow! I agree with getting rid of the drugs, but some of the leaps you guys take are astounding.

There is no way in hell the owners of this filly did anything wrong. The fact that she was a filly doesn't make a dimes worth of difference. You cannot foresee what happen to Eight Belles. You can't see the future and anybody going after the owners or the Trainer/Jock is nuts. If it was Monba who ran last, would all the whining that is going on be any different........... I think so. There would be outcry, but not like there is for the filly.

Nobody could have foreseen this. You don't think that if these things could be predicted it wouldn't have been figured out by now? The amount of money at risk alone, would change the game if these kind of things could be predicted. They can't. So they still happen and in this case in the rarest of forms. On the gallop out! Come on???? I have watched the overhead 50 times. She plants her feet to slow down and both give way.......... it is a freak accident. That is all............she obviously had some weakness that was undetectable. Humans have weaknesses too. I worked in an emergency room for two years. Bones break in weird ways sometimes. You can't foresee it.

As Doctor Bramlage stated, the numbers on breakdowns haven't changed for 30 years. That kind of throws a monkey wrench into the theory on breeding, doesn't it? If we are breeding a less sound horse, why haven't the numbers skyrocketed year after year?

[GameTheory]

I caught Michael Savage on the radio for about 5 seconds last night. He seemed to have been convinced somehow that she had broken both legs DURING the race and that the jockey was whipping the horse AFTER that point. Is this what is being reported? (If so, a good example of why it is a bad idea to trust anything you hear in the media about issues you aren't real familiar with.)

[LottaKash]

These horses are all inbred and always have been. Perhaps you aren't aware of the history of the breed but all are descended through all of 3 sires, the Godolphin Barb, the Darley Arabian and the Byerly Turk. ALL of them. The Darley is responsible for about 75% of all current TBreds and an even great portion trace their lineage through Eclipse, one of his descendants. The problem is not the inbreeding, it is the breeding of genetically defective horses that seemed ok because they were pumped full of drugs during their racing days.


OTM, I belive you are correct in tracing the lineage of all T-breds.......But, correct breeding vs. in breeding are two different circumstances.....

After all, it is very legal and safe to marry past your 3d cousin.....food for thought, anyway...

Good breeding takes this into account, but, I think there are too many 1st and 2d horse cousins, that are getting married......and that, will surely magnify the flaws.....



humbly,

[OTM Al]

That's pretty rare though I have seen it. I keep breeding records in my db as some day (of course I've been saying this for some time) I want to have a look at dam sire success rates. What you see much more frequently is the same sort of crosses over and over...and way too many Mr. Prospectors

[ryesteve]

I caught Michael Savage on the radio for about 5 seconds last night. He seemed to have been convinced somehow that she had broken both legs DURING the race and that the jockey was whipping the horse AFTER that point.Good to know that he's consistently moronic, regardless of the subject matter...

[OTM Al]

Very good points Ralph, but I would counter by saying that we should be seeing less because of technology. Bone scans are now common and catch horses that still have weak spots. Horses are raced far less. Tracks, even the dirt ones are safer. These things should be reducing numbers of breakdowns, but they are staying the same. That means the effects of these things are being countered

[JustRalph]

Very good points Ralph, but I would counter by saying that we should be seeing less because of technology. Bone scans are now common and catch horses that still have weak spots. Horses are raced far less. Tracks, even the dirt ones are safer. These things should be reducing numbers of breakdowns, but they are staying the same. That means the effects of these things are being countered

good points ..........

[OTM Al]

Yes, unfortunately.....

I've felt for some time also they should allow new blood back into the line by breeding some Arabians back in. Its not like they aren't all part Arabian already anyway. Speedball male with a solid Arabian dam might give you something that could race well even in the first generation, but surely by the second. Seem to recall TBreds being bred to other groups. I seem to have heard even Secretariat covered a couple standard breds once upon a time. Don't see why such a concept couldn't be easily used to get strength and endurance back in the breed.

[LottaKash]

Yes, unfortunately.....

I've felt for some time also they should allow new blood back into the line by breeding some Arabians back in. Its not like they aren't all part Arabian already anyway. Speedball male with a solid Arabian dam might give you something that could race well even in the first generation, but surely by the second. Seem to recall TBreds being bred to other groups. I seem to have heard even Secretariat covered a couple standard breds once upon a time. Don't see why such a concept couldn't be easily used to get strength and endurance back in the breed.


HaHa.......I think you have to go and and talk to the SHEIKS about that.........

[OTM Al]

I am going to assume you are joking, but just in case you aren't.... There are Grade 1 events run for Arabians at Delaware Park during the summer. Without their Arabian races some of Delaware's cards so far would have about 2 races on them. Plenty of good ones here and around the world.

[misscashalot]

.... and put an end .......... racing and girls racing against boys.


Just on this one point of yours. In Europe girls successfully race against the boys every day, and without incident.

[46zilzal]

Just on this one point of yours. In Europe girls successfully race against the boys every day, and without incident.
MOST of the time in North America as well.

[Indulto]

MOST of the time in North America as well.46,
I'm not sure that's true in recent years. I'm thinking of Danzon who has failed to return to form after almost beating males in a turf stakes race, and Rags to Riches who was injured and defeated following her Belmont victory. Was Azeri as strong after facing males?

I'm not convinced racing females against males is necessarily bad, but if it were my filly or mare, I'd think about waiting for her final race to try unless she had absolutely nothing left to prove in her own division. And I'd sure think twice about risking her future foals if the experiment were to take place on dirt.

Maybe Eight Belles would have survived with more time to develop. It's a tough call and obviously her connections knew she was exceptional.

OA,
What other potential negatives would there be in re-introducing Arabian blood besides the lower price their foals would initially bring.

[chickenhead]

I think whats being missed by pointing to Rags to Riches, Eight Belles, etc, are how many of the colts get injured on the triple crown trail, and/or are never the same again (or never seem the same again). It's not a small number.

[john del riccio]

I think whats being missed by pointing to Rags to Riches, Eight Belles, etc, are how many of the colts get injured on the triple crown trail, and/or are never the same again (or never seem the same again). It's not a small number.

I think if you were to pose that same question globally (ie ALL horses, not just TC trail horses), the numbers would be more staggering than you imagine.

I think the one point Moss made that I don't agree with is that artificial surfaces
are safer, not quite sure about that.

John

[Indulto]

I think whats being missed by pointing to Rags to Riches, Eight Belles, etc, are how many of the colts get injured on the triple crown trail, and/or are never the same again (or never seem the same again). It's not a small number.But as there are far fewer fillies on that trail, and they all appear negatively impacted in some way, shouldn't that tell us something?

[chickenhead]

But as there are far fewer fillies on that trail, and they all appear negatively impacted in some way, shouldn't that tell us something?

What's the sample size, 4 or 5 horses over the last decade? You can't deduce any difference from that, not with the general attrition rate as high as it is for colts.

Maybe a better takeaway is "really fast young horses get injured, often". Magnificience managed to hurt herself without facing boys.

[jonnielu]

Just on this one point of yours. In Europe girls successfully race against the boys every day, and without incident.

Well let's all put on a sundress and sachay down the promenade. Europeans aren't the speed freaks that Americans are. I guess that it just isn't possible that this horse fell out from exhaustion and broke both her ankles doing it.

Horses never run beyond their limits, and they don't know that they are racing either, they are just dumb animals, right? Sorry, but there are differences in the sexes, not with people, that would be politically incorrect. But, with horses, there are differences. The differences don't make much difference in Europe, they do in America.

jdl

[jonnielu]

MOST of the time in North America as well.

Maybe in North America we should find a better way to identify the champions early, and break their spirits so that we can be sure they never over extend themselves.

jdl

[Marshall Bennett]

Appears to be somewhat of a no-win situation for the connections of any high profile filly . If they refuse to race them against the colts they get blasted within the industry and when they do you risk what we have now . I beleive had it been BB that fell instead , the media would have opened fire to the same degree , only using different ammunition in their case .

[Charlie D]

Just on this one point of yours. In Europe girls successfully race against the boys every day, and without incident.

They certainly do, and when they have the ability, like Ouija Board and Pride did, they kick the boys butts too

[Charlie D]

Can't get Youtube to work, but go watch Makybe Diva do something a boy has not done and some want to deny horses of this ability showing how good they are :lol:

[Grits]

Sometimes, I do not agree regarding sex in athletic competition, but in this case, I do agree with jdl on this and as he points out, we're not talking humans here, we are talking about an animal.

As humans, we can force our opinion regarding human competition, we can--and do--demand that choices be made available. A woman can compete and WIN a Formula One Racing event.

Indeed, in Europe females do race against males, but as we all know, 99% of the races run there are on turf. And I would think, we know as well, that turf has more cushion than the freeway that is rolled on Derby Day, and often, other major racing days.

As humans, we think we know what's best for every living thing. And because of our superior intelligence we make those decisions, daily. Now and then, we too, because of that "perceived" superior intelligence, we make mistakes and we end up appearing as . . . . the dumbest clucks on the planet. Trouble is, we're the only ones capable of discussion on the decisions made--all the others can't respond. And doesn't that benefit us greatly!

The observations I wrote today, earlier in this thread, are essentially, the same thing I said in private early Sunday among some friends. I hesitated to post my thoughts here, until today after I visited another forum and read the comments of DanG, someone, many here, have great respect for. After reading his thoughts, I didn't feel badly about my own. I didn't feel I was terribly off base. I still don't.

Well let's all put on a sundress and sachay down the promenade. Europeans aren't the speed freaks that Americans are. I guess that it just isn't possible that this horse fell out from exhaustion and broke both her ankles doing it.

Horses never run beyond their limits, and they don't know that they are racing either, they are just dumb animals, right? Sorry, but there are differences in the sexes, not with people, that would be politically incorrect. But, with horses, there are differences. The differences don't make much difference in Europe, they do in America.

jdl

[Charlie D]

And I would think, we know as well, that turf has more cushion than the freeway that is rolled on Derby Day, and often, other major racing days .

During the summer months turf tracks are watered in UK to give what they call "Good safe ground"


However, turf management like that and the cushion of turf did not stop Ouija Board being injured at York, an injury, that some thought would never see her on a racetrack again, that cushion did not stop Horatio Nelson breaking his leg in English Derby, that cushion did not stop Gypsy King breaking his shoulder in Irish Derby and there have been more




Only way you stop the above, the Eight Belles, the Babaro's, the George Washington's is by NOT racing, however, you can try to minimise these injuries by having a decent cushion, by probably breeding from sounder stock, by probably stopping race day medication

[ny0707ny]

All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.

jdl

I mentioned this the day of the race and got slammed for saying a filly should not be in a race with a colt. My main point was not just the fact that she is chasing a colt, but also the longer distance involved in the race doing it. The derby is 1 1/4 miles. Not an easy distance even for most colts to get. She was great. That is the entire point though! A horse like her will try to death to win. She was very competitive. But how in a million years can she beat a horse like BB anyway? The odds were slim to none.

Doesn't anyone think that a longer distance race will put more stress on her than a shorter distance route? This is not rocket science here. Even if the risk goes up only slightly why do it?

[tomcalta]

Can someone please enlighten me, exactly which race day meds is Randy Moss referring to? Amicar and Lasix are for resp problems and virtually have no effect on acting as an analgesic. There have been studies which have shown performance has increased, but this effect was most likely die to decreased water weight and/or attenuated respiratory stress. So what other meds, i guess besides steroids, is Moss referring to? Isn't most of everything else illegal and/or tested for in pre/post out of competition testing?

As for the whip, i don't know if i think it should be completely removed but i do feel that the stewards should be a little more stringent with excessive use. Most jocks and horsemen will agree (i hope) to know that the whip does not do much for making a horse go faster, but is rather a more effective tool for switching leads or better control of the horse.

I have felt the need to defend this sport numerous times since last Saturday, mainly from those that only watch 3 televised races/year... and i'm sure i'm not the only one on this message board that is getting annoyed.

[tomcalta]

PS... Am i the only one that is absolutely sick of people saying that horses breaking their legs in horse racing is "part of the sport?"

Horses breaking down are not part of the sport, or at least not part of the sport that i have worked in. Yes, as in all sports injuries occur, but by no way are horsemen comfortable with injuries or breakdowns and by saying these things are just "part of the sport" it makes me feel like we just shrug our shoulders and say so what... and then we have another target on our backs from PETA.

[Kelso]

I think whats being missed by pointing to Rags to Riches, Eight Belles, etc, are how many of the colts get injured on the triple crown trail, and/or are never the same again (or never seem the same again). It's not a small number.On a similar note, the win rate for KD fillies is something like 7% ... not all that much different from the colts, I think.

[russowen77]

Can someone please enlighten me, exactly which race day meds is Randy Moss referring to? Amicar and Lasix are for resp problems and virtually have no effect on acting as an analgesic. There have been studies which have shown performance has increased, but this effect was most likely die to decreased water weight and/or attenuated respiratory stress. So what other meds, i guess besides steroids, is Moss referring to? Isn't most of everything else illegal and/or tested for in pre/post out of competition testing?

As for the whip, i don't know if i think it should be completely removed but i do feel that the stewards should be a little more stringent with excessive use. Most jocks and horsemen will agree (i hope) to know that the whip does not do much for making a horse go faster, but is rather a more effective tool for switching leads or better control of the horse.

I have felt the need to defend this sport numerous times since last Saturday, mainly from those that only watch 3 televised races/year... and i'm sure i'm not the only one on this message board that is getting annoyed.
He is primarily talking about pain killers.

One problem is that the crowd needs to be educated about the whip. There are many people who get really mad and think the fix is on or whatever if the jock is not whipping the horse. Maybe it is just in OP but I highly doubt it. Change is coming hopefully. The AR demgaz sports editor is calling for the whip elimination with some explanation.

[rastajenk]

Artificial surfaces are here to stay, why? Confused handicappers put boxcar numbers on the board. Boxcar #'s on the board grow handle more then anything else.jdlI think you're confusing your causes and effects. Large fields grow the handle more than anything else, and large fields can produce some boxcar numbers. I see it as yet another condescending cheapshot on all the idiot masses out there that don't know as much as you do, when in reality it's simply field size. If River Downs with their five and six horse fields this spring had a poly surface, you wouldn't see boxcars resulting from confused players; you'd still see odds-on faves winning with mind-numbing regularity.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?Dude, get over yourself already. Obviously, THEY didn't think the colt was UNBEATABLE, or else they wouldn't have entered her in the race.

And nobody in their (and this is key) right mind is going to think that their SOUND horse is going to break both its legs in the next race it runs. Normal people just don't think this way.

However, people with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight seem to ALWAYS think this way, as it makes them feel all warm and gooey inside, and coincidentally, lends that unmistakable air of condescension to their played out virtual voice.

[PaceAdvantage]

Spot on.

The owner deserves to be haunted.

jdlYou're obviously not right in the head. Do you even read what you write? You highlight the fact that the filly had NINE starts, as if this is some sort of monster-magic number, heretofore unheard of in modern racing history?

This sideshow just goes from bad to worse the longer it goes on....

[PaceAdvantage]

I mentioned this the day of the race and got slammed for saying a filly should not be in a race with a colt.And rightly so.

[jonnielu]

I think you're confusing your causes and effects. Large fields grow the handle more than anything else, and large fields can produce some boxcar numbers. I see it as yet another condescending cheapshot on all the idiot masses out there that don't know as much as you do, when in reality it's simply field size. If River Downs with their five and six horse fields this spring had a poly surface, you wouldn't see boxcars resulting from confused players; you'd still see odds-on faves winning with mind-numbing regularity.

Sure, I suppose it is a condescending cheap shot to tell a guy that he has another party competing for the money in his pocket, just in case he is not taking that into consideration.

River Downs is in the throws of death and can't do anything about it, the major tracks that still have the purse structure to fill races will strongly consider poly well before they get there.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Dude, get over yourself already. Obviously, THEY didn't think the colt was UNBEATABLE, or else they wouldn't have entered her in the race.

Don't call me Dude, sonny.

And nobody in their (and this is key) right mind is going to think that their SOUND horse is going to break both its legs in the next race it runs. Normal people just don't think this way.

The sound horse broke her ankles, a sound analysis is a result of consideration of the facts, try to assemble a few. Even an idiot can be smart with some facts in hand.

However, people with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight seem to ALWAYS think this way, as it makes them feel all warm and gooey inside, and coincidentally, lends that unmistakable air of condescension to their played out virtual voice.

People that THINK, are well ahead of those that have survived into their 30's with brand new brains, and will likely stay well ahead, because the learning-disabled will have to learn how to think first.

Perhaps, one day, you will discover that the answers given, un-earned by independent thought, are of the lesser value.

As for me, I could not care less if you ever learn anything about horse racing,
what is played out is my effort to get you to think.

Now, why don't you further demonstrate your disdain for that effort by banning me.

jdl

[ryesteve]

But how in a million years can she beat a horse like BB anyway? The odds were slim to none.No, the odds were more like 13-1 :rolleyes:

[ryesteve]

Now, why don't you further demonstrate your disdain for that effort by banning me.l
Finally, a jdl post I don't feel compelled to argue with! :jump:

[socantra]

Now, why don't you further demonstrate your disdain for that effort by banning me.

jdl

Now why should PA feel the need to do that. Over the years, there have been many pompous fools who have felt the need to get on this forum and show their ass on a regular basis. As an authorized advertiser, you have at least paid something for that privilege.

[ny0707ny]

What is the point of a forum if people are going to jump down your throat for saying something that you don't want to hear? It should be all different views when something goes wrong.

Nobody is an expert on anything. Im just giving my views on something. I think the reason why horses are entrered in the Derby is because the race is worth the most money and prestige. The Oaks is not played up that way. I think the race is just as important and should be made that way also. The way it is now they talk about it as if it is 2nd rate. I don't see why it should be. To me it is just as important as the Derby and I always wondered why nobody felt that way.

You really can't get a full view just on here. You got millions of horse racing fans in this world. You have to poll people around the world and in every state first to see what people think. Not a thread where you have just a few hundred people commenting. It is a fraction of the horse fans.

[Grits]

PA, I'm the one that highlighted Eight Belle's nine starts. And yes, until yesterday afternoon, I'd been able to avoid the photo, including the replay on every nightly newscast in the country, as well. I'd walk out of the room, turn the channel, avoid printed articles . . . . whatever it took.

I'll bend on a lot of things about the sport. And I understand that as long as horses run, there will be injuries, and subsequent deaths. I understand that there are big problems with the breeding mindset, with the surface changes, and with raceday meds and steriods. But I won't change my mind regarding fillies racing colts.

For me, my feminism has its limitations. I don't hesitate in recognizing or admitting it. Some women wouldn't like this, they'd disagree, vehemently. But that's irrelevant to me.

I still say "she knew." And that's what weighs on me, silly as that may sound.

This sport's in total and complete meltdown right now, unlike no other time in its long and storied history. This accident has brought every single factor, that is, or may be, even remotely seen as questionable or damaging, into the national spotlight.

And this sport better gets its damn act together! Or else, its history.

It won't survive this kind of public outcry. On centerstage, as the focus of such negativity, this has far greater reach than the niggling industry problems we, as fans, deal with each day like customer service, etc, etc.

How much will networks and sponsors be willing to spend to continue airing Triple Crown and Breeders' Cup events?

On June 7th, if Brown becomes the first Triple Crown winner in thirty years, the nation ain't gonna be too terribly excited at this point. We may be, but others will not.

Saturday evening, we took a direct hit, a big one. And that hit . . . sad to note . . .is probably going to last a good long while.

This sideshow just goes from bad to worse the longer it goes on....

[ny0707ny]

At this point ideas should be tossed around weather anyone thinks it is stupid or has no effect. We are all looking out for the horses here. If you have another death like this one day in a big race again, this sport won't be around in the future. We have to look at every little thing.

Even with the non-dirt tracks. Some say they are safter but not enough data is done on them yet. You would need them at more tracks before anyone says they are safter or not. Injurys still happen even on them. Right now it should be just all ideas. Not just one idea.

[ryesteve]

It should be all different views when something goes wrong.
There's nothing wrong with a variety of opinions and viewpoints, but when those viewpoints are flat-out wrong and/or naive and/or seriously bordering on insane (and NO, I'm NOT talking about you), it is completely counter-productive to a constructive discussion of the problem.

[chickenhead]

At this point ideas should be tossed around weather anyone thinks it is stupid or has no effect.

Doesn't anyone think that a longer distance race will put more stress on her than a shorter distance route? This is not rocket science here. Even if the risk goes up only slightly why do it?

She was very competitive. But how in a million years can she beat a horse like BB anyway? The odds were slim to none.

So your idea is fillies should not run 1 1/4 races. 1 1/8, apparently no problem.

And fillies should never be entered over their heads. Let's say if their odds are greater than 10-1 in any race they should scratch. Or, just in general, if we think they may end up trying to run "fast".

And your idea is, that even without any data to back it up, we should assume that both of these conditions lead to a very large increase in the likelihood of fillies (not colts, just fillies) breaking down.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[ny0707ny]

So your idea is fillies should not run 1 1/4 races. 1 1/8, apparently no problem.

And fillies should never be entered over their heads. Let's say if their odds are greater than 10-1 in any race they should scratch. Or, just in general, if we think they may end up running "fast".

And your idea is, that even without any data to back it up, we should assume that both of these conditions lead to a very large increase in the likelihood of fillies (not colts, just fillies) breaking down.

Thank you for your thoughts.

People once said the earth was flat and proven wrong. An idea that may seem stupid now may be proven right in future or it may stay stupid. You have to at least throw them out there.

Nobody ever thought we would land on the Moon, and if you told someone long ago we would someday they would think you were nuts.

My ideas on some things may remain in the stupid area to some. Maybe someone though will come along one day and prove them right also.

[chickenhead]

People once said the earth was flat and proven wrong. An idea that may seem stupid now may be proven right in future or it may stay stupid. You have to at least throw them out there.

Nobody ever thought we would land on the Moon and if you told someone long ago we would someday, they would think you were nuts.

My ideas on some things may remain in the stupid area to some. Maybe someone though will come along one day and prove them right also.

You are not making predictions about some unknown entity that will only be discovered in the future. You are making comments about things that have a long historical record.

If someone told me today that the Earth is flat, I'd think they were nuts.

[ny0707ny]

You are not making predictions about some unknown entity that will only be discovered in the future. You are making comments about things that have a long historical record.

If someone told me today that the Earth is flat, I'd think they were nuts.

Maybe other factors caused her breakdown that nobody mentioned yet. Im just giving ideas here. Others say the whip, others say racing them at 2 years old, others say the breeding. You have a lot of ideas. Mine is one of hundreds I am sure. If you asked enough people they would each say something different. :sleeping:

[chickenhead]

no, most others are saying that there are some macro things that effect the injury rate experienced by all horses, like race day medications, breeding practices, etc.

You are arguing that this specific filly was grossly mishandled in such a way that the likelihood of her getting injured in this specific race became pretty much a certainty.

The distinction might not be important to you, but to L. Jones and the owner, and I think the health of the sport in general, I think it is.

[ny0707ny]

no, most others are saying that there are some macro things that effect the breakdown rate experienced by all horses, like race day medications, breeding practices, etc.

You are arguing that this specific filly was grossly mishandled in such a way that the likelihood of her breaking down became pretty much a certainty.

The distinction might not be important to you, but to L. Jones and the owner, and I think the health of the sport in general, I think it is.

I mentioned breeding also. It could be any of those things you mentioned. All ideas should be on the table that is all I am saying. :bang: I got tired of talking really about this. Im no longer commenting on it. I'll just read what other people write for now on.

I'll talk about the Preakness and BB next week.

[chickenhead]

All ideas should be on the table that is all I am saying. :bang:

I know that's what you're saying, and I disagree. That's not how a discussion works. Ideas that have merit stay on the table, ideas that don't get moved off the table.

It's a pointless discussion anyway, a solution in search of a problem. Fillies that get injured against colts is such a vanishingly small number of the total # that you could eliminate inter-sex racing and the injury rate of fillies would not change one iota. That is of course assuming that injuries are what we care about.

If all you care about is not having another filly get injured in the Derby, then yeah, eliminate fillies in the Derby. If you want to stop any filly from getting injured running against the boys, then ban that too. Just don't think you've actually done anything useful.

[Marshall Bennett]

I still beleive she just took a bad step and everything else followed . People do it all the time . Played out in front of a national audience means everything . Just dumb luck on the part of the industry .

[russowen77]

I still beleive she just took a bad step and everything else followed . People do it all the time . Played out in front of a national audience means everything . Just dumb luck on the part of the industry .
If people fracture their ankle they don't die usually.

[Marshall Bennett]

If people fracture their ankle they don't die usually.
Obviously I was talking about the act of falling .

[russowen77]

Obviously I was talking about the act of falling .
The point remains. Falls are much more dangerous to horses than most people.

Looking at the film she bobbled with her hind legs and caused her fall imo. She was not injured in the race. imo she ran so hard she was too tired to recover.

This is going to hurt us all in the long run.

[karlskorner]

An article from ESPN

According to a May 2006 article in Science Daily about the physiology of a race horse, thoroughbreds who usually way upwards of 1000 pounds put a remarkable amount of force on their legs.

Anatomically speaking, they run on their toes said Lawrence R, Soma, a professor of anesthesia and clinical pharmacology at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine. "That makes them very fragile"

According to the Science Daily article, a human would have to put all his weight on his MIDDLE FINGER to duplicate the proportion of weight a horses's hoof supports as it hits the ground.

[rastajenk]

Thoroughbred race horses weigh 2000 pounds. Mike Lupica said so on ESPN's Sports Reporters on Sunday, so it must be true. Those guys are never wrong. :cool:

[windstone]

Whips are often a tool necessary in guiding horses away from danger , especially sudden moves . To remove this mechanism from jockeys would be a disaster in the long run . I've seen instances where jockeys don't carry whips but they're far and few between . They'll never ban the whip .

"TOOL", pretty right field IMO. hope like hell your wrong. i hope they ban all medication and i hope to never see another filly race in the KY. derby or any major tracks derby.

[karlskorner]

Just a side bar. Several years ago I visited one of my sons in Reno, Nev. He had a friend who agreed to take us to see Wild Mustangs. After 2 days we finally found a herd. My question to him at the time "how do they manage without horseshoes", he didn't have an asnwer, but stated the Indians have been doing it for hundreds of years. People from the east brought horseshoes, but the Indians survived without them.

[Pell Mell]

Was there this much talk going on after Ruffian broke down?

[Pace Cap'n]

Maybe not this much since no internet, but it was quite the topic of discussion. As someone (PA?) said, "the world was watching". But we had yet to hear of PETA.

[JustRalph]

Thoroughbred race horses weigh 2000 pounds. Mike Lupica said so on ESPN's Sports Reporters on Sunday, so it must be true. Those guys are never wrong. :cool:

I bet one at Hollywood tonight that ran like he weighed 2000lbs :lol:

[andicap]

If banning whips would cause all kinds of accidents and chaos on the track -- as some posters have suggested -- why would Jerry Bailey be in favor it of. Surely he would not endorse an action that would put jockeys in danger.

[JustRalph]

Was there this much talk going on after Ruffian broke down?


I was only a teenager at the time. But I distinctly remember it being discussed at length on the sports shows the next weekend. I also remember people (i.e. my Dad's friends) being pissed about Sports Illustrated's coverage of it. Not sure what that was though............

I tried the Sports Illustrated archive......but the search engine is shit.........

[Marshall Bennett]

I was only a teenager at the time. But I distinctly remember it being discussed at length on the sports shows the next weekend. I also remember people (i.e. my Dad's friends) being pissed about Sports Illustrated's coverage of it. Not sure what that was though............

I tried the Sports Illustrated archive......but the search engine is shit.........
Wasn't it Sports Illustrated that published the frame by frame account of Go For Wand's fatal injury ? Not sure of that maybe others here know more . I remember horse racing fans being angry about it .

[46zilzal]

Wasn't it Sports Illustrated that published the frame by frame account of Go For Wand's fatal injury ? Not sure of that maybe others here know more . I remember horse racing fans being angry about it .
Not frame by frame but close.

[rdavislake]

I cancelled my subscription to Sports Illustrated after the pics appeared. Worst images I've ever seen.
As for the subject on the table, my problem with the owner is, I believe he made the final decision to go in the Derby. L. J. allowed it. That's ass backwards from the way it ought to be according to the the many smart people I've taken advice from in trying to be a better, more informed Thoroughbred Owner/Breeder. Putting the horse first would seem to be the answer to most problems.

[JustRalph]

Wasn't it Sports Illustrated that published the frame by frame account of Go For Wand's fatal injury ? Not sure of that maybe others here know more . I remember horse racing fans being angry about it .

maybe that's the one I am thinking of.............???? Those pictures were awful............

[Charlie D]

First day Chester May meeting - Going Good


5yo sprinter King Orchisios who had 28 lifetime starts, broke down and had to be put down


Cushion helps, but it does not stop the fatalities

[Charlie D]

Just an update


On UK terrestrial tv, Channel 4 racing have just stated from 9 races at Chester, 4 horses injured


As already posted King Orchisios had to be put down, another (didn't quite catch horse name) broke it's pelvis coming out of stalls

It shows these injuries can happen, before racing, during racing and after the race has finished

[Fredo515]

Couple of points---


I never heard Moss say anything about the Derby should not let a filly run.

I don't remember a huge outcry when Ruffian broke down.

I don't remember anyone saying Winning Colors should not have run in the DERBY in 1988 when she won it.

And last but certainly not least-----Where was the outcry when Rags To Riches ran in and won the Belmont Stakes at a mile and a half last year ??
She had a trememndous stretch duel with Curlin at the end of the mile and a half run and yet I heard no one complain about that--MAYBE because she won the race ?

There is no blame to be assessed about this tradgedy in my humble opinion--anyone can find faults anytime with anything AFTER the fact.

As far a banning whips go--If it is OK by Jerry Bailey then it is OK by me.

[russowen77]

Did Rags ever win another race after the Belmont?

[Grits]

I don't believe you've read all of the pages of this thread. I really don't.

Nor do I believe Randy Moss and your Jerry Bailey, as knowledgable as both may be, have the last word where this sport is concerned.

Bailey's all for removing the whip, NOW that he's retired; I wonder where he'd be were he still riding every afternoon.

There WAS outcry when Ruffian broke down

AND RAGS . . . was trained up to the Belmont Stakes that SHE, indeed, won.

Couple of points---


I never heard Moss say anything about the Derby should not let a filly run.

I don't remember a huge outcry when Ruffian broke down.

I don't remember anyone saying Winning Colors should not have run in the DERBY in 1988 when she won it.

And last but certainly not least-----Where was the outcry when Rags To Riches ran in and won the Belmont Stakes at a mile and a half last year ??
She had a trememndous stretch duel with Curlin at the end of the mile and a half run and yet I heard no one complain about that--MAYBE because she won the race ?

There is no blame to be assessed about this tradgedy in my humble opinion--anyone can find faults anytime with anything AFTER the fact.

As far a banning whips go--If it is OK by Jerry Bailey then it is OK by me.

[Fredo515]

Did Rags ever win another race after the Belmont?

I don't think so--she finished 2nd in the $250,000 Gazelle Stakes at Belmont in September 2007 and I believe that was her last race.

I have never heard anything negative attributed to her from running in the Belmont.


"Here comes Hard Spun. And Curlin is coming through in between horses! And Rags to Riches is coming with a four-wide sweep! And Tiago is in behind them. And at the top of the stretch, a filly is in front at the Belmont! But Curlin is right there with her! These two, in a battle of the sexes at the Belmont Stakes! It is Curlin on the inside -- Rags to Riches on the outside. A desperate finish: Rags to Riches and Curlin! They're coming down to the wire. It's gonna be very close! And it's gonna be.... a filly in the Belmont! Rags to Riches has beaten Curlin and a hundred years of Belmont history! The first filly to win it in over a century!"

[jonnielu]

I don't think so--she finished 2nd in the $250,000 Gazelle Stakes at Belmont in September 2007 and I believe that was her last race.

I have never heard anything negative attributed to her from running in the Belmont.


"Here comes Hard Spun. And Curlin is coming through in between horses! And Rags to Riches is coming with a four-wide sweep! And Tiago is in behind them. And at the top of the stretch, a filly is in front at the Belmont! But Curlin is right there with her! These two, in a battle of the sexes at the Belmont Stakes! It is Curlin on the inside -- Rags to Riches on the outside. A desperate finish: Rags to Riches and Curlin! They're coming down to the wire. It's gonna be very close! And it's gonna be.... a filly in the Belmont! Rags to Riches has beaten Curlin and a hundred years of Belmont history! The first filly to win it in over a century!"

And then, what does this demonstrate that Genuine Risk had not previously demonstrated?

jdl

[Fredo515]

I don't believe you've read all of the pages of this thread. I really don't.

Nor do I believe Randy Moss and your Jerry Bailey, as knowledgable as both may be, have the last word where this sport is concerned.

Bailey's all for removing the whip, NOW that he's retired; I wonder where he'd be were he still riding every afternoon.

There WAS outcry when Ruffian broke down

AND RAGS . . . was trained up to the Belmont Stakes that SHE, indeed, won.


Maybe I wasn't clear enough---

I know Rags To Riches won the Belmont and that was my point--there was no outcry over her running a quarter of a mile longer than Eight Belles did---

I didn't say Bailey or Moss should be the final word----I said if not having the whip is good enough for Bailey it was good enough for ME--you certainly have a right to your own opinion on that matter.

I remember when Ruffian broke down and I do not remember an out cry because she was running against a Colt--also there was no outcry when Winning Colors won the Derby against Colts.

If Eight Belles didn't break down there would not have been an outcry of her running against Colts either.

Again--this is just my opinion and I am well aware people may have differing opinions on these subjects.

One last thing--I read EVERY post on this subject before I posted myself.

[bobphilo]

Whips are often a tool necessary in guiding horses away from danger , especially sudden moves . To remove this mechanism from jockeys would be a disaster in the long run . I've seen instances where jockeys don't carry whips but they're far and few between . They'll never ban the whip .

Not so. Up to 80% of accidents involving horses veering are CAUSED by whipping. Just watch all the races where horses bear in or out to escape the pain of the whip. Remember Scrappy T and Afleet Alex in the Preakness.
Unlike the crop in recreational riding, the severe racing whip (or "bat") is not used for control as many claim. If so it would be used early when horses are hot to handle. It's mainly used in the stretch as punishment to keep tired and achy horses going.
It's not really the jockey's faults either. As long as they have the whip they will use it hard and often in a desperate attempt to win. If they don't they lose rides because they're not considered "aggressive" enough.

Bob

[Fredo515]

And then, what does this demonstrate that Genuine Risk had not previously demonstrated?

jdl

Nothing except Genuine Risk did not win the Belmont---but your point is well taken because she ran in ALL 3 Triple Crown races and did quite well.

She is an excellent example.

[JustRalph]

I don't know that I would take Jerry Bailey's word on whether or not to use the whip.

I might take some advice from some trainers. What does Jack Van Berg, Ron Mcanally and some other old school trainers (i.e. many many years of experience) think about losing the whip? I might listen to these guys if they were in general agreement.

[Marshall Bennett]

Not so. Up to 80% of accidents involving horses veering are CAUSED by whipping. Just watch all the races where horses bear in or out to escape the pain of the whip. Remember Scrappy T and Afleet Alex in the Preakness.
Unlike the crop in recreational riding, the severe racing whip (or "bat") is not used for control as many claim. If so it would be used early when horses are hot to handle. It's mainly used in the stretch as punishment to keep tired and achy horses going.
It's not really the jockey's faults either. As long as they have the whip they will use it hard and often in a desperate attempt to win. If they don't they lose rides because they're not considered "aggressive" enough.

Bob
How could your 80% be correct when as you say , most problems occur early on when the whip is seldom used . Horses often bear out suddenly when leaving the gate . Little time is available to think about a whip . Veering can be controled during the race with the whip , and not the punishing crack as you speak of . Btw , Bailey suggest doing away with the whip , how ironic , talk about whip cracking down the stretch .

[ryesteve]

Did Rags ever win another race after the Belmont?Did Jazil?

In other words, so what?

[A. Pineda]

What I remember most about Ruffian is that her magnificent spirit contributed more to her demise than anything else. She continued to run on after her injury and was her own worst enemy during post-surgery recovery. The heart-breaking end to that story became the impetus for the recovery pool, a life-saving improvement much as the death of a jockey led to the padding of all starting gates. But I do not remember a huge outcry about fillies racing against colts.

Except for the part about PETA not going far enough, I agree with everything Randy Moss said. No more whips and back to oats, hay, and water.

[russowen77]

Did Jazil?

In other words, so what?
I have already admitted that I would be more conservative with horses than most of the board would be.

I think the race took a lot out of her. She was never the same again. That one big win was worth it in most people's eyes. Just not mine.

We are at a nexus for our sport. The decisions made in the next few years will be huge for the future and most of my friends make their living from it in one way or another.

[ryesteve]

I have already admitted that I would be more conservative with horses than most of the board would be.That's apparent, but it completely ignores the issue.

What about Jazil?

Was it a mistake to run him in the Belmont?

[Grits]

Fredo, I'm sorry if I seemed terse. I didn't mean to be. We, simply, disagree here. Eight Belles had run 9 races and at no time, had she displayed the level of talent that Rags had. Nor had she been given any sort of a breather, or won her races, aside from her maiden, by huge margins.

Rags had started, prior to the Belmont, only 4 times. Once as a 2 year old, finishing off the board. She began her three year old campaign, winning the Las Virgenes by 3/4s of a length. Next, the Santa Anita Oaks by 5 1/2 lengths. Then, the Kentucky Oaks by 4 1/4 lengths.

She wasn't entered in the Black Eyed Susan or the Preakness. Pletcher, as you know, took her instead, straight to Belmont and trained her up to the race for the next five weeks. Too, the distance wasn't questionable for her because of her pedigree with Slew and A.P. Indy and Jazil, all before her. She was wrapped up with distance ability.

These two fillies, in their respective race records, are not comparable, nor are they in pedigree. Eight Belles had, simply, not shown the brillance that Rags had shown.

As far as Ruffian, everyone that's ever watched a horse race knows her extraordinary legend. (And if they don't, they shouldn't be allowed on a horseracing forum 'til they do.) She'd NEVER even been headed in her previous races, never behind at any point of call, in any race. And trainer, Frank Whitely never wanted Ruffian to race Foolish Pleasure. He was against it from the start. All this was during the same time period as "the battle of the sexes" was played out by tennis stars, Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs. That match, was the impetus for the match race against the two horses. Almost the entire nation was watching that Saturday afternoon. And I know, that you're familiar with all of this.

I thought Winning Colors was the first filly entered to race against colts, after Ruffian's death. If so, that was over a decade later. That's a mighty long stretch. So, in many ways, Ruffian's death did impact racing, greatly. It brought racing fillies against colts to a virtual halt.

The same may well happen once again. And its true, had Belles not lost her life, none of this would be argued. But, fact is, she did.

Today, as far as opinion or outcry, its more loudly heard because all those years ago, we had only the news services to rely on . . . newspaper, tv, radio. As many have alluded to, we didn't have the internet connecting us all, like we do today.

AND we didn't have those fools at PETA either.

Finally, as far as spirit goes, one can speak of Belles, in the same breath with Ruffian and Rags all day. Because Belles had it . . . and she had it all over . . . she had it in spades. The good ones, always do.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough---

I know Rags To Riches won the Belmont and that was my point--there was no outcry over her running a quarter of a mile longer than Eight Belles did---

I didn't say Bailey or Moss should be the final word----I said if not having the whip is good enough for Bailey it was good enough for ME--you certainly have a right to your own opinion on that matter.

I remember when Ruffian broke down and I do not remember an out cry because she was running against a Colt--also there was no outcry when Winning Colors won the Derby against Colts.

If Eight Belles didn't break down there would not have been an outcry of her running against Colts either.

Again--this is just my opinion and I am well aware people may have differing opinions on these subjects.

One last thing--I read EVERY post on this subject before I posted myself.

[Grits]

Further apologies to Fredo: I left out Genuine Risk's Derby win, coming before Winning Colors.

[andicap]

steve davidowitz had what I considered an intelligent analysis of the tragedy in the DRF Simulcast Weekly, which DRF sent out in its May newsletter.

To Polytrack (et al) haters -- note that Davidowitz is NOT necessarily endorsing the that CD transition to an artificial surface, only that last week's event strengthen their argument for doing so.

His main point is that those who DO support the rubber tracks argue that breakdowns often occur on dirt because of the greedy, short-sighted and cruel mindset of many track executives in keeping tight seals on dirt surfaces, especially on special occasioins.

here's the link
http://www.drf.com/newsletter/05david.html

and a relevant fair use excerpt

Eight Belles certainly gave no hint that she was under physical duress during the 1 1/4-mile Derby, although she was forced to steady twice during the race. That said, this latest public death of a gallant racehorse is sure to bring calls for more synthetic track surfaces. This time, such calls may have a legitimate case to present.

Consider: The Churchill Downs racing surface that was a sea of slop on Friday was made extremely fast for the Derby by sealing and compressing the upper layer of the surface to such an extent that it squeezed the water out and created a very thin layer of cushion. Under such conditions, the thin layer of topsoil tends to mute the shock-absorbing effect that usually comes from 3 to 4 inches of upper-level cushion.

That in a nutshell is the principal point that synthetic track advocates are trying to impress upon racetrack owners, horsemen, and horseplayers. The practice of compressing a racing surface to squeeze out rainwater is a ticket for potential catastrophic foot injuries.

....

Cutting right to the chase, Eight Belles's tragic breakdown on the squeezed-out Churchill surface on Saturday, leaves Churchill Downs one more public breakdown away from making the switch. Either that, or track officials will have to turn back the clock a dozen years or so and let their wet surfaces dry out naturally without leaving horses vulnerable to heavily rolled, dried-out tracks that have no shock absorbing capability.
.

[Show Me the Wire]

I atand by my earlier comment, in a different thread, the CD track's surface caused Eight Bells injury and I guess my post regarding track condition and causation may not be the dumbest post CJ's dad read in a long time according to Davidowitz's analysis.

Time for Cd to switch to an artificial surface.

[bobphilo]

How could your 80% be correct when as you say , most problems occur early on when the whip is seldom used . Horses often bear out suddenly when leaving the gate . Little time is available to think about a whip . Veering can be controled during the race with the whip , and not the punishing crack as you speak of . Btw , Bailey suggest doing away with the whip , how ironic , talk about whip cracking down the stretch .

I never said that most problems with bearing in or out occur early on when leaving the gate. The stat is based on the entire race, whenever the problems occur. I'm posting an article by Monty Roberts, the "horse whisperer", where he makes his claim against the whip and cites the stat. There are several countries where the use of the whip is severely limited and it cannot be used the way it commonly is in the US. There is no higher incidence of accidents there. In fact the injury rate is significantly lower than here for various reasons, which may very well include the severe limitations on whip use. In any case all that has to be done is to run some test races without the whip to show that it causes more accidents than it prevents before the final step of banning it.

Whatever one thinks about the many other arguments to ban the whip, one thing that cannot be denied is that without the whip, the advantage goes to competitive horses who run and win on their own courage. Is there any down side to that. After all, aren't we trying to "improve the breed".

In one important sense, I consider the whip to be in the same category as performance enhancing drugs. The way it is commonly used, its purpose is to get a horse to extend itself beyond what it is willing or able to give on its own. This not only defeats the purpose of racing, it also leads to more injuries and breakdowns.

Bob

[jonnielu]

Nothing except Genuine Risk did not win the Belmont---but your point is well taken because she ran in ALL 3 Triple Crown races and did quite well.

She is an excellent example.

They are all excellent examples of my point, including Eight Belles. That being that there are things that female horses can do generally better then male horses do. And there are things that male horses do generally better then female horses do.

Females of reasonably equal ability, will usually run the longer distance more evenly then the males. They actually have a natural advantage at these distances. The male's advantage is speed. What Eight Belles didn't have in speed compared to Big Brown, she tried to fill with heart and her natural ability to run evenly..... until she collapsed.

jdl

[bobphilo]

I never said that most problems with bearing in or out occur early on when leaving the gate. The stat is based on the entire race, whenever the problems occur. I'm posting an article by Monty Roberts, the "horse whisperer", where he makes his claim against the whip and cites the stat. There are several countries where the use of the whip is severely limited and it cannot be used the way it commonly is in the US. There is no higher incidence of accidents there. In fact the injury rate is significantly lower than here for various reasons, which may very well include the severe limitations on whip use. In any case all that has to be done is to run some test races without the whip to show that it causes more accidents than it prevents before the final step of banning it.

Whatever one thinks about the many other arguments to ban the whip, one thing that cannot be denied is that without the whip, the advantage goes to competitive horses who run and win on their own courage. Is there any down side to that. After all, aren't we trying to "improve the breed".

In one important sense, I consider the whip to be in the same category as performance enhancing drugs. The way it is commonly used, its purpose is to get a horse to extend itself beyond what it is willing or able to give on its own. This not only defeats the purpose of racing, it also leads to more injuries and breakdowns.

Bob

Sorry I forgot to attach the article. Here it is.

Bob

[Pace Cap'n]

They are all excellent examples of my point, including Eight Belles. That being that there are things that female horses can do generally better then male horses do. And there are things that male horses do generally better then female horses do.

Females of reasonably equal ability, will usually run the longer distance more evenly then the males. They actually have a natural advantage at these distances. The male's advantage is speed. What Eight Belles didn't have in speed compared to Big Brown, she tried to fill with heart and her natural ability to run evenly..... until she collapsed.

jdl

Expressions such as "fill with heart" are an attempt to anthropomorphize an animal. No one on this planet knows what, if anything, was going through that fillly's mind. And she did not attempt to run until she collapsed. The race had been over for some time when she fell.

[Semipro]

There is so much bullshit in this thread I don't even know where to start and as slow as I type it would take all night. The use of the whip should be be limited to giving cues such as changing leads and brushing to ask for more then letting him look at it so he knows to be serious and focused and let the stewards have the final say like an offical in other sports.Filles do break more when in against males Ruffian,8 Belles, and even though she proved she belonged even Rags to Riches career was over and the common denominator a huge heart and like any female would rather die than lose or at least my wife would:D.

[JustRalph]

Expressions such as "fill with heart" are an attempt to anthropomorphize an animal. No one on this planet knows what, if anything, was going through that fillly's mind. And she did not attempt to run until she collapsed. The race had been over for some time when she fell.

good post................! :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

The sound horse broke her ankles, a sound analysis is a result of consideration of the facts, try to assemble a few. Even an idiot can be smart with some facts in hand.Let me get this straight...what your FACTS are saying is that an UNSOUND Eight Belles was able to defeat 18 of the top 3yos in training going 1 1/4 miles, yet, it was that grueling GALLOP OUT that finally got to her.....yeah....ok dude....

Now, why don't you further demonstrate your disdain for that effort by banning me.Have you done something worth banning? Unfortunately, being a prick isn't a bannable offense. You'll have to try a little bit harder.

[jonnielu]

Expressions such as "fill with heart" are an attempt to anthropomorphize an animal. No one on this planet knows what, if anything, was going through that fillly's mind. And she did not attempt to run until she collapsed. The race had been over for some time when she fell.

On average, how far can the average race horse run "all out", full tilt boogey??

jdl

[jonnielu]

Let me get this straight...what your FACTS are saying is that an UNSOUND Eight Belles was able to defeat 18 of the top 3yos in training going 1 1/4 miles, yet, it was that grueling GALLOP OUT that finally got to her.....yeah....ok dude....

Have you done something worth banning? Unfortunately, being a prick isn't a bannable offense. You'll have to try a little bit harder.

Sonny,

Maybe you should get together with some reading comprehension skills first....

I said "The sound horse ..... "

then try some thinking.

jdl

[Charlie D]

First race at Ascot today , Listed winner, Group 3 placed 5 yo Ivy creek suffered a broken leg

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe you should get together with some reading comprehension skills first....Reading comp just fine dude....

Here's what I wrote:
And nobody in their (and this is key) right mind is going to think that their SOUND horse is going to break both its legs in the next race it runs. Normal people just don't think this way.

Here's your reply:
The sound horse broke her ankles...

Your response seriously implies that in your opinion, she was NOT sound....as in...."yeah, she was so sound, she broke her ankles....duh!"

Perhaps you ought to reformulate your replies in a clearer fashion if the above LOGICAL interpretation was not your true intent.

[russowen77]

It seems to me that folks just getting it yet.

Eight Belles proved she could run with the boys. She did.

She was sound before the race or she couldn't have won the race.

Horses break down everyday and they are not relevant. Horses are slaughtered for food every day and right now they are not that relevant. Their is no national eye on the true darkside of our sport as of yet.

The problem is is that racing is no longer the only game in town as far as gambling is concerned. It was not that many years ago that statement would not be true. We have a lot of competition and our collective "s**t" is not togther. Sorry, but that term fits this situation.

We need to get the x's and o's of how this industry should work and get it done rapidly. Many of the smaller horseman are throwing in the towel or giving it serious consideration. That means the people that work for them will be out of work also. Many of the people on this board don't seem to understand how critical those losses would be. How many races could a track run on a card and what size the field if you lose the family operations out of the industry. The pressures on these people is great at this time.

Eight Belles is a tragedy mainly because it happened on national TV and she was a she. More ammo for our opponents at almost exactly the wrong time. They need to be as conservative as possible with their stock on any nationally televised race at this time. That is just the reality of the situation financially.

I don't have any answers. I wish I did. The one thing I wish our industry would understand is that the real competition financially is the casinos and that new blood needs to be attracted to racing. Imo, everything decision of the powers that be in the racing world right now needs to factor in our survival more than profit right now.

It probably won't happen. Too many people at odds and everyone thinks they deserve the lions share including the state governments and how they tax the sport.