Beyer on EIGHT BELLES

[karlskorner]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24458076

[Kelso]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24458076Very good article. Clear, concise and on target ... the soundness problem is caused by breeding for speed and drugs. Thanks for posting, Karl. I've already sent it on to a few folks.

[46zilzal]

This is NOT anything new. I had an article posted to the Blood Horse in Unbridled's Derby edition, letters to the editor, complaining of the breed back then.

[ryesteve]

This is NOT anything new.
No one claimed it was new. But you sure as hell didn't hear this kind of discussion during the NBC telecast; and even here, where people should know better, you've got people blaming the breakdown on gender.

[joanied]

No one claimed it was new. But you sure as hell didn't hear this kind of discussion during the NBC telecast; and even here, where people should know better, you've got people blaming the breakdown on gender.

Right on!!
Owners & breeders have been painfully aware of the fact they have been breeding so much unsoundness in our horses it's gotten scary!! Do they care....doesn't seem so.
Breeding to sell has been a burr under the saddle for years... when an owner or breeder advertises a stallion what is one of the very first things they say... they quote the high prices he gets for his foals... "sold for a zillion dollars" is much more important to them than the horse staying sound in his race career. And the Unbridled progeny are high on the list of breeding unsoundness. Even with the career's of these horses shortened to maybe 6 to 8 races before they are retired, we still have breakdowns and will continue to have them simply because breeding unsound horses regardlessly and pumping them full of
"stuff" is not going to go away anytime soon.

The entire thing is a fiasco....and it makes me want to cry.

[cj]

This is NOT anything new. I had an article posted to the Blood Horse in Unbridled's Derby edition, letters to the editor, complaining of the breed back then.

People will actually read Beyer's article.

[JustRalph]

People will actually read Beyer's article.

:lol:

[Niko]

I'm not an expert but if you give horses medication or supplements that allow them to run through pain, mask pain or perform much higher than their natural abilities this will happen-doesn't matter what surface they run on. Especially if they have multiple peak races without a rest. I can't comment on Eight Belles, I'm not the vet or trainer. Just speaking generally from other sports and what's been eluded to, spoken about or penalties imposed for in horse racing. I'm sure the breeding doesn't help. The medications and steriods would be a bigger problem as they have become more potent and effective. Natural supplements and training methods have also gotten better.

It's a shame, a huge loss for owner and trainer and I'm sure they're heart broken.

[MNslappy]

Good article. Though...what is the solution? Most of us are aware of the problem, and Beyer addresses it very well here for those that weren't aware...but no one seems to have the answer. I want to hear more about what needs to be done and how it's going to happen. What's the answer? Seems to me that, first off, until there are more 10 and 12 furlong dirt and poly races to compete in, breeders are just going to continue to do what they're doing right now, arent they? So, how do you force a change in the mentality here? I'd like to hear people's ideas on this...

[Marlin]

Good article. Though...what is the solution? Most of us are aware of the problem, and Beyer addresses it very well here for those that weren't aware...but no one seems to have the answer. I want to hear more about what needs to be done and how it's going to happen. What's the answer? Seems to me that, first off, until there are more 10 and 12 furlong dirt and poly races to compete in, breeders are just going to continue to do what they're doing right now, arent they? So, how do you force a change in the mentality here? I'd like to hear people's ideas on this...Require all tracks to convert to poly/synthetic. Not because the track may be safer, but it would cause breeders to re-evaluate. The races are not contested like traditional dirt races. Almost more like a turf race. Everyone knows that NOBODY in America breeds horses to get a "turf" horse. Turf breeding typically involves a lot of stamina influences as opposed to speed. Otherwise I have no idea how you could ask breeder and pinhookers to breed sturdier horses and lose money.

[foregoforever]

what is the solution?

ok, I'll take a shot at a few ...

Regarding drugs, I see no alternative to a federal law to bring the US into the same practices as the rest of the world. I'm not happy with bringing the feds into it, but there's no other way. All the tracks must have uniform rules, and the states are never going to get together on it. We need the feds to herd these cats.

Regarding surfaces, I thought Paul Moran had a great blog a few months ago about how track maintenance practices for dirt need to be re-examined. In particular, he questioned the wisdom of sealing tracks, saying that the frequent packing promotes uneven and hard surfaces. I'd like to see a dirt track install the same type of fancy drainage system used in many stadiums, and adopt a no-sealing policy, and see how that works.

Synthetics may be the answer, but clearly more work is needed to demonstrate the benefits and improve the consistency of them. It's clear that the reporting and statistical methodology to characterize injuries needs some work.

The breeding practices are the toughest nut to crack. I think you have to shift the economics here. I'd recommend reductions in the amount of black type available for 2-year-olds and for Derby preps, and reductions in purse sizes for the 2yo stakes, and pushing back the calendar a bit. You can also tweak the purses for sprints vs. routes. Why can't purse sizes be based on number of furlongs run? A 6f race has half the purse as a 12f.

Just talking about trying to improve the breed isn't going to accomplish anything. You have to change the economics to encourage better practices and discourage the damaging ones.

I'd also like for someone to develop a soundness index for stallions. If Tomlinson can do it for turf and distance tendencies, why can't the same be done for soundness issues? Breeders seem to have all sorts of statistics on average earnings, winners and stake winners, but I never see any that reflect soundness. If breeders do want to improve the breed, then they need some data to work from.

Just a few after-midnight ramblings ...

[Bruddah]

Require all tracks to convert to poly/synthetic. Not because the track may be safer, but it would cause breeders to re-evaluate. The races are not contested like traditional dirt races. Almost more like a turf race. Everyone knows that NOBODY in America breeds horses to get a "turf" horse. Turf breeding typically involves a lot of stamina influences as opposed to speed. Otherwise I have no idea how you could ask breeder and pinhookers to breed sturdier horses and lose money.

But, it reminds me of certain questions and tests my father would quiz me with from time to time. When I gave him my solutions (answers) he would say, " Son you are going through your A$$ to scratch your nose. Try to think problemsthrough to their final solutions. The Industires Intelligencia has tried to scratch its' proverbial A$S by going through this process.

If you want safer race tracks, and want to change the Breeding influence to more stamina, why change to unproven and unnatural artificial surfaces? Why not change to all Turf racing? You will accomplish the same desired results on a NATURAL and PROVEN surface, requiring stamina in the breeding. It's a surface horses have been running over for millenia. It would be much less costly to install and maintain than artificial. Tracks with single dirt tracks could convert and compete much easier. It would be more compatible to the Euro's and other World racing. In total it would be much more receptive to change than a total Industry based on artificial surfaces. (bad idea) Again Folks, this is just another of my many opinions.

[Kelso]

what is the solution?I think ending the breeding-for-weakness habit is squarely the responsibility of the Jockey Club. As I understand it, the JC is the authority for registering thoroughbreds.

The Jockey Club should promptly develop a scientifically well-supported standard, whereby any specific horse in a blood line is assigned a generational score ... the closer in generation to a prospective sire or mare, the higher the score. The JC should then deny registration to any foal in whose bloodline any ancestor's total generational score exceeds a scientifically sound maximum. With their database of registered t'breds, JC scoring of any prospective pairing of a sire and mare should be a 5-second operation.

For elaboration ... numbers as examples, only:

Parents of prospective sire and mare each score 15 points
Grandparents of prospective sire and mare score 8 points
Greatgrandparents of prospective sire and mare 3 points
And so on back through a scientifically significant number of generations.

If any ancestor-horse's score totals 30 or more, a foal will not be registered by the Jockey Club.


The JC should also assiduously track injuries ... racing and training ... at the track and on the farm ... fatal and nonfatal ... and should promptly ban expansion of any ancestor's bloodline at such point as it can be statistically determined that that horse's genes are bad for the breed. (Some breeders will be stuck holding the bag when an ancestor of their breedstock is banned. TOO DAMNED BAD ... buy insurance.)


In support of JC efforts to toughen-up the breed, the state racing commissions should immediately begin requiring a steadily increasing percentage of increasingly longer races as a condition of sanctioning meets. The routes should be for both sexes and all ages, so that future runners ... bred specifically for sturdiness and stamina ... will have a growing number of 12f-20f races in which to compete.


And it ALL has to begin NOW.

[MNslappy]

Great post, thank you!

How difficult a process is it for the JC to amend the rules for the Registry? I don't know enough about it to know what all goes into amending the Registry rules, who can propose changes, who gets to vote on it, how often proposed changes actually do get adopted, etc etc.

I would imagine an idea like what you've proposed wouldn't exactly be quick and painless to get accomplished. Not impossible, but probably not easy either.

[Greyfox]

Is there any correlation between height of horse and break downs?

Eight Belles stood 17 hands tall.
It seems to me that leverage for a runner running in high heeled shoes is going to be quite different than someone running in shorter heels?

The hypothethesis would be: Short stocky types are less likely to break down than tall lanky ones. I don't know of any research to support this.

Also along these lines, as long lanky runners are more likely to be going farther distances, is there a correlation between distance and break downs? The longer the race, the more likely the break down?

[BombsAway Bob]

How can NBC/MSNBC website jusify showing video
of Eight Belles final strides? Awful!
(clip is blimp shot;right side of webpage, halfway down page.)
I sent them an E-mail asking them to consider removing it
out of respect to the connections...
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24458076 (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24458076)

[JustRalph]

The Jockey Club should promptly develop a scientifically well-supported standard,


This is the only problem with your idea. Which I like by the way. The science isn't advanced enough to make these decisions. There is no way to decide who is going to be sound. It is just like human families. One child is born healthy and another is frail. It happens. even though they have the same gene pool. When it comes to horses it would probably be even harder to nail down. Good idea, but maybe a little over reaction.

[jonnielu]

People will actually read Beyer's article.

Yeah, and they'll parrot it mindlessly for 20 years without a thought as to what Beyer may have done to help bring about the situation of which he now snivels.

jdl

[ryesteve]

Yeah, and they'll parrot it mindlessly for 20 years without a thought as to what Beyer may have done to help bring about the situation of which he now snivels.
jdl
Yeah, I had a feeling that it was just a matter of time until you started blaming Beyer for weakening the breed.

And I just KNOW that Beyer was behind the typhoon in Myanmar and the volcano in Chile... what can we do to stop him and his madness?????

[DougReding]

How can NBC/MSNBC website jusify showing video
of Eight Belles final strides? Awful!

It is awful, but I watched it twice and will likely watch it again. It solidifies my positition that something MUST be done. Enough people seeing things like this will prompt action. You can bet that if it was played over and over on the Derby Day broadcast there would be serious steps taken to deal with this problem once and for all. Of course, the PETA whackos would be given way too much power but in the end even they might be helpful if their pressure forced the breeding practices to change, drugs etc.

Another poster suggested going to 100% turf racing. Why NOT? Sounds good to me. But that doesn't address the underlying problem unfortunately; it simply cushions the legs and joints of poorly bred, unsound horses.

[46zilzal]

Another poster suggested going to 100% turf racing. Why NOT? Sounds good to me. But that doesn't address the underlying problem unfortunately; it simply cushions the legs and joints of poorly bred, unsound horses.
Wouldn't work. Agreed: when I first started to study breeding I was taken aback by noting that Mr. Prospector, leading sire for many a year, only got about 65-70% of his offsrping to the races.

[Pell Mell]

A horse is not a horse till it's 4yrs. old. Stop the 2yr old races. There was a time when 2 yr olds were only tested and then came the big buck races for babies and this is the result.

[joanied]

How can NBC/MSNBC website jusify showing video
of Eight Belles final strides? Awful!
(clip is blimp shot;right side of webpage, halfway down page.)
I sent them an E-mail asking them to consider removing it
out of respect to the connections...
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24458076 (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24458076)

I used the link and also emailed them about removing the video & photos. Maybe more members will also email them.
Enough is enough now.
(I did not watch the video clip)

[46zilzal]

A horse is not a horse till it's 4yrs. old. Stop the 2yr old races. There was a time when 2 yr olds were only tested and then came the big buck races for babies and this is the result.
FIVE years old

[MNslappy]

A horse is not a horse till it's 4yrs. old. Stop the 2yr old races. There was a time when 2 yr olds were only tested and then came the big buck races for babies and this is the result.

If this were to happen, what would be the real-world mechanism to get it done? Would it be the American Graded Stakes Committee, the Owners and Breeders Association?

I'm really interested in learning about this stuff, I'm still very green.

[slewis]

Require all tracks to convert to poly/synthetic. Not because the track may be safer, but it would cause breeders to re-evaluate. The races are not contested like traditional dirt races. Almost more like a turf race. Everyone knows that NOBODY in America breeds horses to get a "turf" horse. Turf breeding typically involves a lot of stamina influences as opposed to speed. Otherwise I have no idea how you could ask breeder and pinhookers to breed sturdier horses and lose money.

When the day comes that they convert all tracks to synthetic, that's the day I'm out of this game.
Poly's have proven NOTHING but inconsistant racing and short term data which maybe skewed by the data-takers whose financial gain it is to get Polys installed at all tracks.
I'd love 60 minutes to do an investigation into what lobbyists for the synthtic surfaces visited, contributed, associated, etc, with California politicians for those geniuses to mandate that all tracks convert to POLY.
If something improper went down, I wouldn't be the least bit shocked knowing how our political system works these days.

Oh, and by the way, like I posted previously, not that I've personally bred many horses, (We just raced the first I bred several yrs ago) but I bred him to run LONG and with turf pedigree. I will continue to breed most horses in the future to run LONG, long long.
There are MANY breeders who have the same philosophy.
Maybe limiting steroid use would make more sense. God made the horse's frame, bones, etc, to work in conjunction to his natural muscle mass.
Adding much more muscle to that frame through an aggressive steroid program puts pressure on joints the animal can't sustain.

[bigmack]

How can NBC/MSNBC website jusify showing video
of Eight Belles final strides? Awful!
Head & Shoulders Shampoo is paying for it. NBC needs all the loot they can get and don't care how they get it.

[Shenanigans]

Is there any correlation between height of horse and break downs?

Eight Belles stood 17 hands tall.
It seems to me that leverage for a runner running in high heeled shoes is going to be quite different than someone running in shorter heels?

The hypothethesis would be: Short stocky types are less likely to break down than tall lanky ones. I don't know of any research to support this.

Also along these lines, as long lanky runners are more likely to be going farther distances, is there a correlation between distance and break downs? The longer the race, the more likely the break down?

I don't think there is any correlation between height and breakdowns. When you compare high heel to short heel to tall horses to short horses, it's not the same. Tall or short, their feet are mostly the same. Which does bring up the point that the average racehorse compared to the average riding horse has less heal because it is trimmed off. This has been something that has been done for ages and does not help with keeping a horse sound.
Usually short stocky (quarter horse type) are built more for speed and the tall lanky ones for distance. Of course, that doesn't mean a short stocky horse couldn't run a distance, or a lanky one a sprint. Breeding has a lot to do with that. Though, anymore, there are more out there bred for speed than distance.
Speed breaks down horses more than distance does. The faster a horse goes, the more pressure is put on the legs. Fatigue does breakdown horses too but most tired horses quit running before an injury does occur.

[DougReding]

FIVE years old

Even with apparently unsound genetics, if racing were significantly delayed, could most breakdowns be prevented? Anyone please chime in here. And if a horse really isn't a horse until 5, should the grueling TC be moved up to FIVE? I propose 4, with a juvenile season exactly as it is now, but starting at 3 rather than 2. Maybe it should be 3 year olds running as juveniles, 4 year olds getting into serious but not full-blown, hard racing, and 5 year olds getting the not for all out balls to the wall racing.

The other question I have is this: are Northern Dancer and other horses who apparently pass on unsound genetics REALLY unsound? Or do these simply happen to be horses who need longer to mature? In humans, some start puberty 2 or 3 years later than average, and some may be nearly done when others begin. Is it possible that these horses are plenty sound if they are given the time needed to fully mature based on possibly slow to mature (rather than unsound) genetics?

[the little guy]

A horse is not a horse till it's 4yrs. old. Stop the 2yr old races. There was a time when 2 yr olds were only tested and then came the big buck races for babies and this is the result.


Actually, studies have shown that racing horses more as 2YOs is better for bone formation and increases the likelihood of future soundness.

[GameTheory]

Actually, studies have shown that racing horses more as 2YOs is better for bone formation and increases the likelihood of future soundness.What studies?

[the little guy]

What studies?


Ones you apparently haven't read.

Would you believe it if Dr. Bramledge said it?

[xtb]

Didn't see any for racing 2yo's but there are some for training 2yo's.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nzva/nzvj/2005/00000053/00000002/art00004

[xtb]

Here's one that includes racing, key is if it's "done correctly".

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/dec_03.pdf

[chickenhead]

I assume most of these things follow the same "bath tub" curve as product reliability. You're gonna get a lot of injured horses towards the beginning of their careers, because that's when unsound horses should get injured. Once you weed them out, things should be relatively stable, until wear and tear start to take their toll.

[matthewsiv]

Dirt is archaic,they have trained in Newmarket on Polytrack and Equitrack since 1987,and they have raced at Lingfield and Southwell since then.

In my opinion,Beyer and the American way concentrates the whole of a horses career towards Saratoga 2 year old race followed by 1 or2 more races then the Breeders Cup Juvenile,then 2 more preps at least and then the triple Crown.

That is 9 races in under a year and then they have the Travers and the Breeders Cup still to look forward to?

The average horse that you breed is heavy topped,with big strong quarters and front legs that cannot carry them.

Everything is geared to speed,just look at the pace you run races the first quarter is much quicker than the last?

There is not many options for 10 and 11 furlong horses in this country on dirt or any other surface.

If some of the above is thought about,maybe a big strong filly like Eight Belles would have been coming to her peek next year and not DEAD.

[Tom]

Maybe limiting steroid use would make more sense. God made the horse's frame, bones, etc, to work in conjunction to his natural muscle mass.
Adding much more muscle to that frame through an aggressive steroid program puts pressure on joints the animal can't sustain.

Now that is the most intelligent post I think I have ever read about the horse part of this game. Steroids should be banned. :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

If one is bread for longer distances, can one that is potatoes be far behind?

[Shenanigans]

Now that is the most intelligent post I think I have ever read about the horse part of this game. Steroids should be banned. :ThmbUp:

Especially in yearlings for sales and two year olds. Sales companies are starting to come down on steroid use in these horses.
An interesting study was done. The last sentence pretty much sums up what's wrong with thoroughbreds today - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129347

[Kelso]

God made the horse's frame, bones, etc, to work in conjunction to his natural muscle mass.
Adding much more muscle to that frame through an aggressive steroid program puts pressure on joints the animal can't sustain.:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[KingChas]

Do you think the sport has changed that much from 30-50+ years ago?
If you do you are naive.They overan,ill-bred, juiced and who knows what the hell else since the beginning of the sport.
The only difference now is the accessibilty of this knowledge to the public.When you could only see a horserace live or hear it on the radio,only the people that followed the sport closely were privy to this info.A lot of stuff was kept behind the scenes.
Now we have in depth and I mean in depth tv coverage, the good old internet and a hell of a lot more than just the rf to read.
Horses ran on dirt they ran in circles.Even on wet turf and muddy tracks.
Horse racing is like life unpredictable to fatalities and injurys.
Perhaps we should pen all horses in zoo's.Then when they can't run naturally they will become obese and their hooves will rot away which will leave them without legs to stand on,eventually rendering them extinct....Problem solved?
If we didn't have two freak injurys in the last couple TC races this happy horseshit would be put to rest.

[Kelso]

Ref. banning 2-year old racingIf this were to happen, what would be the real-world mechanism to get it done?Since there is no central racing authority in the US ... NTRA has no juice at all ... I think it would have to be done by each state's racing commission and/or legislature. This is yet another example of the need for a genuine, powerful, national racing authority.

[Kelso]

Actually, studies have shown that racing horses more as 2YOs is better for bone formation and increases the likelihood of future soundness.Actually, I think the studies have showed that beginning TRAINING at 2-years old increases the prospect of soundness. Training is a lot better controlled activity than racing.

[russowen77]

Require all tracks to convert to poly/synthetic. Not because the track may be safer, but it would cause breeders to re-evaluate. The races are not contested like traditional dirt races. Almost more like a turf race. Everyone knows that NOBODY in America breeds horses to get a "turf" horse. Turf breeding typically involves a lot of stamina influences as opposed to speed. Otherwise I have no idea how you could ask breeder and pinhookers to breed sturdier horses and lose money.

There are some fine horses bred for the turf in NA. Usually by the larger outfits.

Pinhookers don't breed they buy. One of the real problems imo. They want to buy stock and turn it quickly for the most part and a horse bred for precociousness is an easier sell.

We lose a lot of good stock by having them turn a 10.5 or so furlong at a very young age.

If one checks the Greyson Jockey club stats one will find some fine stallions in the mix. Distorted Humor being one of the best for combining speed and soundness.

I actually like an earlier posters idea about reintroducing some Arabian stock back in the line. 2 of the 4 are gone and 1 is just barely hanging on.

[Marlin]

I'm not advocating a switch to synthetic. Was just attempting to offer a solution that would radically influence American breeders. If you breed in attempt to get a "turf" horse, I commend you. However, I believe you are in a very small minority.

Yes I know pinhookers sell, and agree with the above assesment.

As far as the sport not changing in 30-50 years, I guess I'm naive. I suppose they still do take left turns (normally). Starts per career are down significantly. Is that not change?

[ezpace]

Along with steroids just enfore the drug laws now on the books.

and # 1 FORCE all 2yr old trainers to have ankles and knees xray before

they can run.

[KingChas]

.

As far as the sport not changing in 30-50 years, I guess I'm naive. I suppose they still do take left turns (normally). Starts per career are down significantly. Is that not change?

Of course some of this makes sense,the developement of more potent drugs has changed.Horse racing has not.Left turns in circles-right turns ins circles on dirt whatever.

I guess history does repeat itself.

Let's create the perfect breed that will solve all our problems.
Sound familier?

Amazing!

An old man in a new world :sleeping:

[PaceAdvantage]

How can NBC/MSNBC website jusify showing video
of Eight Belles final strides? Awful!You do realize that NBC showed the same exact clip on their live Derby telecast, correct?

[PaceAdvantage]

It solidifies my positition that something MUST be done. Enough people seeing things like this will prompt action.How long have you been paying attention to racing? Things ARE being done, and HAVE been done.

However, like others have said, you can wrap these horses in bubble wrap, and some WILL STILL DIE horrible, painful deaths via all sorts of injuries....broken necks from falls, crushed skulls from rearing up or flipping over onto concrete, any number of broken legs on any type of surface, heart attacks, aneurysms, colic, you name it....

Your position is that something MUST be done....well, something IS being done...studies are being conducted, artificial surfaces are being installed, breeding practices and medication rules are being called into question, steroids are starting to be banned in certain jurisdictions, etc. etc.

I'll ask again, are you new to the sport?

[gamester01]

Inbreeding .. Look at almost any horse's pedigree.

inbreeding.........

64 + 32 + 16 + 8 +4 + 2 = 126 is the number of different ancestors a
horse should have. Most have far less.

I think Seabiscuit had 126

'nuff said..

Blame the Jockey Club. They must be a dumb bunch..

Change the 'must be' to 'are'

[Bobzilla]

Interesting way to look at it Gamester01. I went into one of the pedigree websites and counted 111 going six gens for Eight Belles. As one might expect there was a lot of Native Dancer in there, as can be said for many of today's thoroughbreds.

Some have mentioned reintroducing Arabian blood back into the breed. May be a good idea. How about just tapping more into In Reality-Godolphin Barb line or maybe even Herod-Byerly Turk. I think 1993 BC winner Arcangues came down from the latter, maybe it was the former, can''t remember.

[slewis]

Interesting way to look at it Gamester01. I went into one of the pedigree websites and counted 111 going six gens for Eight Belles. As one might expect there was a lot of Native Dancer in there, as can be said for many of today's thoroughbreds.

Some have mentioned reintroducing Arabian blood back into the breed. May be a good idea. How about just tapping more into In Reality-Godolphin Barb line or maybe even Herod-Byerly Turk. I think 1993 BC winner Arcangues came down from the latter, maybe it was the former, can''t remember.

I wanted to comment on this "Arabian" suggestion.
I dont consider myself an "expert" on breeding. I'd look at myself as a student of something that might take half a lifetime to achieve success, and understand. I'm constantly trying to learn.

This Arabian suggestion has to be one one of the sillyist (I know this postee didn't make it) suggestions I have EVER heard. If anyone/group were silly enough to attempt this, and the jockey club even oK'd the foals to race as Thoroughbreds, you'd almost certainly be breeding a bunch of plodders. Where would these horses compete?
Who would fund this? Do you think owners would want to waste $$$$$$ on an experiment like this that would surely fail when 95% or more lose money to begin with??
This is a really kooky idea, fueled by a tragedy that should be viewed as a rare but sad part of a wonderful sport, rather then a cry for drastic change.
(I know I'll get responses to my dipiction of "rare", but all considered the number of races daily/breakdowns, this is my opinion)
Yes, even one breakdown is one too many, but the racetrack is an extension of life, and shit happens.
I would also like to address the inbreeding comments.
I think 70-75% of today's Thoroughbred is traceable to the Darley line with 20% or so, the Godolphin line and 5% Byerly Turk. It's not easy finding Mares whose lines haven't been "poluted" for choice of a lousy description, with PHALARIS blood (Raise a Native, Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer, Halo) as this was (and is) the American way for 50 yrs. I know I've looked for Mares to cross, but then again, I'm scared to death to spend money (not to mention bringing an animal into the world who cant make it to the races) on experimentation, as this game is risky and expensive enough as it is.
Again, easy to talk about, not so easy to implement.

[Bobzilla]

Points well taken, Slewis. And even if there were mares out there representing the Godolphin Barb and Byerly Turk lines who didn't have an over exposure to Phalaris in their ancestry, they would be so few as to make any mass breeding campaign to dramatically alter the breed impractical. Furthermore, where would lie the economic incentive for breeders and buyers to do this? I guess it would have to be by some decree from the JC or some other governing entity that would interfere with the natural give and take of the market. Not sure if that would be good or even realistic.

[joanied]

Good posts with lots of great ideas...the articles posted about training/racing 2 yr olds are both excellent....nothing new there, I've known this for a long time...proper, slow training for 2 yr olds developes strong bone. Just the same as when they are foals...the ones that get to stay out in pasture all day develope much better than those that are brought in to stalls for several hours every day.

I think if 'they' slow down on the 2 yr olds, we would have stronger bones running races...it's all proven, but evidently most people that can control this, don't give a damn.
I also think that 'they' need to consider the real age of 2 yr olds...I mentioned this before, the Jan. 1st birthday for all Tb's should be changed... too many 2 yr olds are really long yearlings.
Stop the breezes at the 2 yr. old sales...if you are a good horseman, you don't need to see a young horse run... just about all the well bred 2 yr olds in these sales can go in 10 and a little change...doesn't proove anything. The Green Monkey is a good example of that...blew a hole through the wind in his 2 yr old sale breeze, then didn't run a lick.
Back in 'the day', folks at the sales didn't see breezes...they used all the other criteria available to pick horses to buy...and did damned well doing it that way!!
Breeders just need to be more careful about their matings...as discussed a lot in these posts.
Ban the drugs. No drugs allowed at all in young horses...steriods have to be banned all together, they are the number one bad drug.
Enforce the violations....no exceptions, no slaps on the wrist...they have to treat trainers that are doing this as if they are criminals.
We need to have the exact same rules for drugs in every state, with a strong ruling body.
Maybe make a rule stating that 2 yr olds., back to the birthday things again...must BE 2 yrs old, via his actual birthday, before they can be put into serious training.
X Rays...and lots of them, to be sure bones, knees especially, are forming correctly.
As for the ages of horses racing...I don't think starting horses racing as 3 yr olds, or making the TC races for the 4 yr. old's is something they will ever do...but, maybe they can move the dates of the Triple Crown races up would help...rather than the 1st Saturday in May, start the TC races on the 1st. Sat. in June...at least the late foals born in May would actually BE 3 years old.

It would do the industry :bang: good if they'd read these forums...they :eek: might learn something!!

[Shenanigans]

Interesting way to look at it Gamester01. I went into one of the pedigree websites and counted 111 going six gens for Eight Belles. As one might expect there was a lot of Native Dancer in there, as can be said for many of today's thoroughbreds.

Some have mentioned reintroducing Arabian blood back into the breed. May be a good idea. How about just tapping more into In Reality-Godolphin Barb line or maybe even Herod-Byerly Turk. I think 1993 BC winner Arcangues came down from the latter, maybe it was the former, can''t remember.

Anyone suggesting reintroducing Arabian blood back into the breed needs to be shot.
My friend has invested her life savings in this breed and I have had opportunities to work with them. They are by far one of the weakest breeds I have ever encountered. These are top of the line Arabs, and they have more unsoundness issues than I have ever witness in any Thoroughbred. All they would do to the Thoroughbred breed is place it sooner into the grave. They are slow, unsound and stupid. The only thing the Arab contributed to the Thoroughbred was it's refined skeletal structure and that occasional wacko nut case that has to depart from the post parade because it can't handle the crowd.:rolleyes:

[Kelso]

well, something IS being done...studies are being conducted, artificial surfaces are being installed, breeding practices and medication rules are being called into question, steroids are starting to be banned in certain jurisdictions, etc. etc.

I'll ask again, are you new to the sport?I'm new to the sport PA, and I already know full damned well what the INDUSTRY (not the "sport") has known full damned well for a damned long time:

1) Inbreeding weakens the breed in general, and certain offspring in particular.
2) Drugs mask pain and unhealthy physical traits.
3) Steroids can kill.
4) Stall the public with crocodile tears and eventually they'll forget about what we're trying to hide.

I also know that the INDUSTRY didn't, and still doesn't, know if or which artificial surfaces are worth their enormous costs ... costs that could otherwise be directed at more strict and more prompt random testing of all runners, of all classes, in all locations. (Ah, but there was and is money to be made ... BIG MONEY ... selling the stuff; so let's get on with making it look as if we're "doing something." You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.)

The INDUSTRY has known these things for a long time, PA, yet all they do is "study" .... "question" .... "start" to do what they know is long overdue .... and all of the preceding in only "certain jurisdictions."

Take a look at the KHRC's empty response to Eight Belles's breakdown .... NOT A SINGLE, DAMNED WORD ABOUT IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDING! Think they had the Kentucky breeding industry in mind when they composed that vapid "response?"

The empty suit running NTRA is no better. I read Waldrop's blog about the breakdown. Aside from all the perfunctory references to "tragedy" and "courage" ... for every acknowledgment of a POSSIBLE problem, he took a more direct and pronounced swipe at those who have had the impudence to shine a light on the INDUSTRY's blameworthiness. (Seems I've read some of the same right here in on this board ... right here in this thread, even.)

The RACING INDUSTRY puts the money far, far ahead of the horses. They have for a long time and ... just like the government ... they're happy to let later generations (of horses) pay the price for their feckless, selfish REFUSAL TO DO MORE THAN STUDY, QUESTION AND START ... but only in CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS!

[Kelso]

I would also like to address the inbreeding comments.
I think 70-75% of today's Thoroughbred is traceable to the Darley line with 20% or so, the Godolphin line and 5% Byerly Turk. It's not easy finding Mares whose lines haven't been "poluted" for choice of a lousy description, with PHALARIS blood (Raise a Native, Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer, Halo) as this was (and is) the American way for 50 yrs. I know I've looked for Mares to cross, but then again, I'm scared to death to spend money (not to mention bringing an animal into the world who cant make it to the races) on experimentation, as this game is risky and expensive enough as it is.
Again, easy to talk about, not so easy to implement.So let's just drop the idea and keep on breeding in Native Dancer infirmities?

[slewis]

So let's just drop the idea and keep on breeding in Native Dancer infirmities?

Ok,

No problem.
Here's my suggestion to you... make the racing world your oyster.
Change the evilness.

Start with acquiring a half million dollars worth of broodmares.
Make sure their as far from the Phalaris line as possible (in itself, not an easy task).
Since I read your "new to the game" I suggest you hire a pedigree consultant to outbreed these mares away from Phalaris as well. Get as much of the blood you can out of the foals. Tell him what you want to do and why. After he laughs at you, dont punch him in the mouth. He probably has done consulting for some hot shot attorney's and since your about to go broke, I dont want to add to the misery by seeing you in jail too.
Use a wide variety of stallions to really mix the pools.
Start with the In Reality line: Cee's Tizzy, Honour and Glory, any son of Valid Appeal.
6 yrs or so down the road, and a couple of million in expenses and fee's gone by, get back on this forum and let us know how you make out.

Sir, I'm not trying to be a jerk. But let's put things in perspective here. There are hundreds of races a day. Many horses have reasonably good careers. This tragedy during racing's bigest day has caused a ridiculous uprising.
The finger pointing, which started at Larry Jones, who from the contacts I have in this business swear to me is as honest and caring a horseman there is, are way overdone. Without getting too religious or philisophical, my personal opinion is that all animals are on this planet for our pleasure.
BUT, Humans, as the only god-given species capable of reason, have a moral responsibility to ALL animals to treat them as humanly as possible.
In the case of the racing industry, for the most part this is true, but it's far from and will always be the perfect world you and others unrealistically seek.

[Kelso]

Ok,

No problem.
Here's my suggestion to you... make the racing world your oyster.
Change the evilness.

Start with acquiring a half million dollars worth of broodmares.
Make sure their as far from the Phalaris line as possible (in itself, not an easy task).
Since I read your "new to the game" I suggest you hire a pedigree consultant to outbreed these mares away from Phalaris as well. Get as much of the blood you can out of the foals. Tell him what you want to do and why. After he laughs at you, dont punch him in the mouth. He probably has done consulting for some hot shot attorney's and since your about to go broke, I dont want to add to the misery by seeing you in jail too.
Use a wide variety of stallions to really mix the pools.
Start with the In Reality line: Cee's Tizzy, Honour and Glory, any son of Valid Appeal.
6 yrs or so down the road, and a couple of million in expenses and fee's gone by, get back on this forum and let us know how you make out.

Sir, I'm not trying to be a jerk. But let's put things in perspective here. There are hundreds of races a day. Many horses have reasonably good careers. This tragedy during racing's bigest day has caused a ridiculous uprising.
The finger pointing, which started at Larry Jones, who from the contacts I have in this business swear to me is as honest and caring a horseman there is, are way overdone. Without getting too religious or philisophical, my personal opinion is that all animals are on this planet for our pleasure.
BUT, Humans, as the only god-given species capable of reason, have a moral responsibility to ALL animals to treat them as humanly as possible.
In the case of the racing industry, for the most part this is true, but it's far from and will always be the perfect world you and others unrealistically seek.

Well, that surely is one way.

A cheaper, quicker, more far more effective way, I submit, would be for the Jockey Club to finally do its damned job ... by stringently, and promptly, limiting inbreeding of thoroughbred horses.

Assess scores to horses by generation and refuse registration to any foal who has too much score from any one horse in its DNA. The same geneologists who today are ruining the breed by knowing which ancestors to emphacize for speed can instead be put to an honest line of work ... pairing sires and mares who aren't (too very) related to each other.

Or, as an alternative, we can sit back and wait for Congress to tell the Agriculture Department to impose an inbreeding standard on the industry. Take your choice.

I don't think you're trying to be a jerk. (Neither do I think that you are, indeed, a jerk.) I also don't think Larry Jones is to blame for Eight Belles death ... UNLESS he had something to do with her breeding, perhaps as a part-owner. (I don't know if he had any interest at all in EB beyond that of trainer, and I'm not suggesting that he did.)

I do think that breeders react ... and properly so ... to the market. So it's up to owners, such as yourself and perhaps Mr. Jones, ... the demand-side of the market ... to improve the breed by demanding and buying soundness. The Jockey Club can make the new owners' playing field level, in that regard, by immediately instituting a generational scoring procedure and standard.

Perpetuating the decades-old trend of breeding-to-bleed is not treating horses "as humanely as possible." As to some people perhaps losing big money ...... that's just too damned bad. They've already made big money by encouraging and enabling the misbreeding of their animals. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

[slewis]

Well, that surely is one way.

A cheaper, quicker, more far more effective way, I submit, would be for the Jockey Club to finally do its damned job ... by stringently, and promptly, limiting inbreeding of thoroughbred horses.

Assess scores to horses by generation and refuse registration to any foal who has too much score from any one horse in its DNA. The same geneologists who today are ruining the breed by knowing which ancestors to emphacize for speed can instead be put to an honest line of work ... pairing sires and mares who aren't (too very) related to each other.

Or, as an alternative, we can sit back and wait for Congress to tell the Agriculture Department to impose an inbreeding standard on the industry. Take your choice.

I don't think you're trying to be a jerk. (Neither do I think that you are, indeed, a jerk.) I also don't think Larry Jones is to blame for Eight Belles death ... UNLESS he had something to do with her breeding, perhaps as a part-owner. (I don't know if he had any interest at all in EB beyond that of trainer, and I'm not suggesting that he did.)

I do think that breeders react ... and properly so ... to the market. So it's up to owners, such as yourself and perhaps Mr. Jones, ... the demand-side of the market ... to improve the breed by demanding and buying soundness. The Jockey Club can make the new owners' playing field level, in that regard, by immediately instituting a generational scoring procedure and standard.

Perpetuating the decades-old trend of breeding-to-bleed is not treating horses "as humanely as possible." As to some people perhaps losing big money ...... that's just too damned bad. They've already made big money by encouraging and enabling the misbreeding of their animals. I don't feel sorry for any of them.

One thing in these post's are certain... at least we both care.

I thank you for your insight's on this debate.

[Valuist]

Yeah, and they'll parrot it mindlessly for 20 years without a thought as to what Beyer may have done to help bring about the situation of which he now snivels.

jdl

Beyer has done more to promote the sport than any one individual or organization. What has been your contribution?