Horse Racing Dichotomy

[Track Phantom]

I did not think Big Brown could win. In fact, I was pretty sure he wouldn't win. I mean, which horse can break from the 20 post, run wide the entire way, at a distance they've never been, pressing a relatively fast early pace, only a few minutes of racing experience away from being a maiden and not get run down by a Grade 1 winning closer from behind? He would have to be 10 lengths best.

As it turned out, Big Brown is a minimum of 10 lengths better than the other three-year olds. He never looked to be asked, at any point, until mid stretch. I've watched every Derby since 1986 (and many more via replays on Youtube) and there aren't many that stand out as much as this one. I think Big Brown may have given Big Red a run for his money today.

Triple Crown? Foregone conclusion. Provided he stays healthy and doesn't run into upset "racing gods", he may not be tested in Baltimore or New York. He appears far superior to any three-year old colt in training.

Herein lies the oddity. 80% (maybe more) of the racing public does not want this horse to win the triple crown. I could understand rooting against Real Quiet or Charismatic. Both were very non-descript runners prior to their run at infamy. It would be sacrilegious to give up such a nostalgic jewel to a runner that doesn't take your breath away, simply by looking at the PP's.

So, why isn't there more of a celebration around this colt? Why aren't fans euphoric about the idea of an undefeated Triple Crown winner? It's very simple. The horse is owned and managed by despicable people. The trainer is a confirmed violator of illegal substances. He is arrogant and disrespectful. He laughs in the face of all the hard work being put in by those not fortunate enough to have a Big Brown or a Saint Liam. ESPN did a story on Bennie Stutts, a 70+ trainer having his first Derby horse in 40+ years in the game. He was so emotional just being on the grounds and around the history and pageantry that he could not get through the interview without tearing up. Why can't karma play a part and give the win to this guy?

The owners are even easier to dislike. Geared out in their $2000 suits and mafia sunglasses, parking their limo's outside the barn, they are about as self important as anyone can be. When someone says, "you can't buy class", I think we have a clearer visual of what that means. They have entered the sport to make a profit on the breeding end. That means we are likely very close to seeing the end of Big Brown's racing career. IEAH Stables are the residue of an industry imploding and fighting for scraps like wolves over a dead carcass. The chaos in the industry opened the door for these vultures.

All of this is certainly not the horse's fault. He is talented. Supremely talented. However, there was something eerie about the finish of the 2008 Derby. Big Brown cruised to the lead at the top of the stretch and looked to draw away from the pool of exhausted pylons left in his wake. Out of that bunch came Eight Belles. She tested Big Brown without really challenging for the victory. Clearly, she ran herself to death. When the race was over, the immediate excitement about a great win was tarnished by the inopportune tragedy. There was a thought that came to mind. Would Big Brown be tested for illegal substances? If so, would anything be found? Does horse racing need a wake up call like a Kentucky Derby winner being disqualified for drugs? Maybe karma would play a part. If a drug test found the presence of drugs, Eight Belles would end up the winner of the 2008 Kentucky Derby. Please (racing) God, make it happen.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ya'll are nuts.

You're not going to deny me the supreme pleasure of watching and appreciating a horse with such talent as Big Brown. I don't give a flying **** who or what his connections are, were, or will be in the future.

I am a fan of HORSE RACING. I am not a fan of TRAINERS or OWNERS or whatever other baggage you or anyone else wants to bring into this discussion.

Ya'll (and by Ya'll, I mean all the killjoys looking to tear this process down) need to take that two ton chip off of your shoulder. Either you're a fan of horse racing or you're not.

If you're a fan, then your heart was racing as fast as mine was watching Big Brown accelerate to the front and then draw off to a huge win after breaking from the 20 hole and racing WIDE ASS WIDE the whole way around.

If you can't appreciate that kind of talent for what it is, then it's probably best you stop paying attention to the game.

[Track Phantom]

Ya'll are nuts.

You're not going to deny me the supreme pleasure of watching and appreciating a horse with such talent as Big Brown. I don't give a flying **** who or what his connections are, were, or will be in the future.

I am a fan of HORSE RACING. I am not a fan of TRAINERS or OWNERS or whatever other baggage you or anyone else wants to bring into this discussion.

Ya'll (and by Ya'll, I mean all the killjoys looking to tear this process down) need to take that two ton chip off of your shoulder. Either you're a fan of horse racing or you're not.

If you're a fan, then your heart was racing as fast as mine was watching Big Brown accelerate to the front and then draw off to a huge win after breaking from the 20 hole and racing WIDE ASS WIDE the whole way around.

If you can't appreciate that kind of talent for what it is, then it's probably best you stop paying attention to the game.

Glad you can get enjoyment from the game. However, this is why I don't go to WWF wrestling matches. I enjoy believability. In addition, I happen to care about the animals themselves and think it is sick that people will destroy another living being for a few bucks.

All in all, the game, the people running it, the personalities involved, is a mess, a complete joke. Today was just the icing.

Let me summarize:
* Biggest race of the year but locking out players who want to bet on it
* Raising takeout for money to pay the horseman because their vet bills are too high and they can't make ends meet (see what illegal drugs gets ya)
* Charging to get into the track
* Leading trainers are documented cheaters and instead of banishment, they are glorified
* Horses do incredible things and eventually break down due to pain numbness (a 3500 claiming horse Middle Earth was running 100 beyers at Will Rogers Downs and moving up the claiming ladder, running a 6 furlong race in 1:07 and change and broke down today because his trainer, another 30+% winner, decided he would try and squeeze whatever he could out of the horse before he died...on the track)
* Confirmed past posting and odds changing
* IEAH stables
* Most classless human involved in the game wins the Derby (so much for Nafzger and Frances Genter)

The list could go on for days

[jonnielu]

Glad you can get enjoyment from the game. However, this is why I don't go to WWF wrestling matches. I enjoy believability. In addition, I happen to care about the animals themselves and think it is sick that people will destroy another living being for a few bucks.

All in all, the game, the people running it, the personalities involved, is a mess, a complete joke. Today was just the icing.

Let me summarize:
* Biggest race of the year but locking out players who want to bet on it
* Raising takeout for money to pay the horseman because their vet bills are too high and they can't make ends meet (see what illegal drugs gets ya)
* Charging to get into the track
* Leading trainers are documented cheaters and instead of banishment, they are glorified
* Horses do incredible things and eventually break down due to pain numbness (a 3500 claiming horse Middle Earth was running 100 beyers at Will Rogers Downs and moving up the claiming ladder, running a 6 furlong race in 1:07 and change and broke down today because his trainer, another 30+% winner, decided he would try and squeeze whatever he could out of the horse before he died...on the track)
* Confirmed past posting and odds changing
* IEAH stables
* Most classless human involved in the game wins the Derby (so much for Nafzger and Frances Genter)

The list could go on for days

Seems that you could be happy knowing that there is truly a seat for every ass in horse racing.

I met a kid at Keeneland that saddled a filly for the Ashland, he said that he was just a farm boy from Kentucky, and terminal with about 18 months to live. He said that being there was a dream for him. It is his greatest dream to win the Kentucky Oaks.

On Friday, he made one dream real, and the other eluded him. I expect to see him again next spring at Keeneland, living today's dream.

jdl

[Endsweep24]

I do alot of reading on forums but usually do not post but I see that you have posted this same "horse racing Dichotomy" on atleast 1 other forum and some of the statements you made on the DT forum are absolutely Absurd.

I quote
I not only think a Kentucky Derby winner being DQ'd is what the sport needs, I would go a step further and say a Triple Crown winner being DQ'd is what the sport needs. National attention to this very serious issue is the only way it will be rectified.

I quote
If a drug test found the presence of drugs, Eight Belles would end up the winner of the 2008 Kentucky Derby. Please (racing) God, make it happen

The only thing I agree with in those 2 statements are the 2 words National Attention but not the Kind Your Looking For.

Oh Yeah National Attention Has really rectified the problem in Baseball it has recieved more attention on certain days than are troops in Iraq (which is very sad in itself)

OK Enough Already Oh!!!!! PAce I was right there with you yesterday my heart was racing as BB pulled away down the lane my first thoughts as BB crossed the wire were MAn it would be great for Racing if we could have an undefeated Triple Crown Winner.

Ends sweep

[jballscalls]

Ya'll are nuts.

You're not going to deny me the supreme pleasure of watching and appreciating a horse with such talent as Big Brown. I don't give a flying **** who or what his connections are, were, or will be in the future.

I am a fan of HORSE RACING. I am not a fan of TRAINERS or OWNERS or whatever other baggage you or anyone else wants to bring into this discussion.

Ya'll (and by Ya'll, I mean all the killjoys looking to tear this process down) need to take that two ton chip off of your shoulder. Either you're a fan of horse racing or you're not.

If you're a fan, then your heart was racing as fast as mine was watching Big Brown accelerate to the front and then draw off to a huge win after breaking from the 20 hole and racing WIDE ASS WIDE the whole way around.

If you can't appreciate that kind of talent for what it is, then it's probably best you stop paying attention to the game.

Could not agree more PA. (this might be the first time we've agreed) LOL I've still never agreed with one of Valento/Split Rock's posts, unbelievable.

[The Judge]

For me the horse that I want to win the triple crown is a superior horse not a good horse running agaisnt slow competition. He ran agaisnt 19 slow horses unless he runs a spectacular race at some point or some real head to head competition shows up I can't get excited.

[jcrabboy]

I'm with PA as well. If there seemed to be a more subdued celebration it could have something to do with the bittersweet second place finish, then death, of Eight Belles.

Big Brown looked like the real deal comin' down the stretch. Watching the cool down it looked like he was ready for another mile and a quarter.

His connections may suck, but unlike the majority of the prima donnas who pass for atheletes in the human world, he does his best every time he hits the track (and he does it for oats and a clean stall).

Even the lowliest claimer, to my way of thinking, deserves our admiration.

Racing needs a lot of improvement these days, but if Big Brown is up to the Triple Crown, I'll go along for the ride regardless of his connections.

Jimmie

[Pace Cap'n]

Originally posted by Valento: Herein lies the oddity. 80% (maybe more) of the racing public does not want this horse to win the triple crown.

And you know this...how?

[PaceAdvantage]

For me the horse that I want to win the triple crown is a superior horse not a good horse running agaisnt slow competition. He ran agaisnt 19 slow horses unless he runs a spectacular race at some point or some real head to head competition shows up I can't get excited.Most horses end up looking slow running against a freak.

Good God man, what more do you want? If I gave you the current PPs of Big Brown two years ago and told you this is what you were going to get in 2008, but I covered up his name and his connections, you'd have danced a jig right in front of me in anticipation:


Career Debut: ONE MILE AND A SIXTEENTH on turf. CAREER DEBUT, GOING A DISTANCE OF GROUND? How rare is that? Not only does he win, he CRUSHES a field of 9 other maidens at SARATOGA going 8.5 furlongs on the turf by ELEVEN+ lengths.
Race #2: Coming off a six month layoff, he comes back to the races GOING ONE MILE and wins for fun against a small field.
Race #3: THE FLORIDA DERBY....runs away and hides from a field of 11 others...
Race #4: Wins the KENTUCKY DERBY by almost five lengths after breaking from POST #20 and racing 4-5 WIDE around both turns.

[magwell]

For me the horse that I want to win the triple crown is a superior horse not a good horse running agaisnt slow competition. He ran agaisnt 19 slow horses unless he runs a spectacular race at some point or some real head to head competition shows up I can't get excited. Judge...with that statement you need to go back to bed.....:bang:

[Shenanigans]

Ya'll are nuts.

You're not going to deny me the supreme pleasure of watching and appreciating a horse with such talent as Big Brown. I don't give a flying **** who or what his connections are, were, or will be in the future.

I am a fan of HORSE RACING. I am not a fan of TRAINERS or OWNERS or whatever other baggage you or anyone else wants to bring into this discussion.

Ya'll (and by Ya'll, I mean all the killjoys looking to tear this process down) need to take that two ton chip off of your shoulder. Either you're a fan of horse racing or you're not.

If you're a fan, then your heart was racing as fast as mine was watching Big Brown accelerate to the front and then draw off to a huge win after breaking from the 20 hole and racing WIDE ASS WIDE the whole way around.

If you can't appreciate that kind of talent for what it is, then it's probably best you stop paying attention to the game.

I'm probably a bigger fan of horse racing than you are and I am in no way going to take the two ton chip off my shoulder. Having worked with these animals for quite some time and when someone like Dutrow shows up with a huge win with the kind of resume' he has, I can assure you that most of the backside is saying the same thing in the first post.
It's nothing against the horse or denying his talent. It's the fact that a cheating trainer wins the biggest race in the world. "So what?" you say? Well that's just the problem with the game. Too many are saying "so what".
I actually had two people that know nothing about racing ask me (after the race) "isn't that the trainer that gets bad tests all the time"? What kind of positive story is that sending out the non-racing public??? Too many times I have seen the honest trainers I worked for get beat by a lesser horse trained by a cheating trainer, and you say "so what". So what if gamblers were cheated out too, right?
Big Brown ran a great race. I won't take that from him. Throw out the fact he raced against horses that belonged in sprints, on the turf, were too sore to perform at their top level, or otherwise didn't have any business in the field, you've got one hell of horse to be cheering about. Put him in last years field and he would have finished no better than 6th. Go ahead and be a huge fan. Get excited by a horse that has no competition. He's the best of the crop. The Triple Crown path is wide open for this horse. He has it. If he doesn't win the Triple Crown, this will go down as the worst crop of three year old in history. What does that say with 40,000 foals born a year? Maybe drugs are needed to find a champion these days.

[The Judge]

based on what I saw in the Derby. Big Brown can yet win my respect with a gutty race or better yet a hugh time but I want more. Check out some of the comments under post "Big Brown Wins ! ". Lots of horseplayers feel the same as I do "at this time". I reserve the right to get on the BB bandwagon at a later date.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's the fact that a cheating trainer wins the biggest race in the world. "So what?" you say? Well that's just the problem with the game. Too many are saying "so what".You know what, most every trainer is a cheating trainer if we go by some people's standards. Even Bill Mott, the poster boy for hay and oats, got nailed with a positive. Is he a cheating trainer? He got nailed. He got suspended. I guess so....

You know damn well that often times these "positives" are baloney regarding the drug involved and the miniscule amount detected....many times, it would have had absolutely no effect on the outcome of the race.

But you're not going to get me to defend the past actions of Dutrow. It's the system that needs to be changed. It's a systemic problem, not an individual problem with Dutrow.

Big Brown ran a great race. I won't take that from him. Throw out the fact he raced against horses that belonged in sprints, on the turf, were too sore to perform at their top level, or otherwise didn't have any business in the field, you've got one hell of horse to be cheering about.Glad to see you're not taking his great race away from him....:rolleyes:

Put him in last years field and he would have finished no better than 6th.Keep dreaming.

[Tuffmug]

Losers ALWAYS hate winners! Reminds me of the great scene in the Clubhouse in the movie "Let it Ride!" where Richard Dreyfus rasberries them and calls the crowd a bunch of "stuffy rat bastards".:D :D :D

[The Judge]

watching the electrifying moves of Street Sense last year no one was willing to conceded the remaining triple crown races to him, not because of a knock against how the horse won the Derby but because we knew that he had some stiff competition headed his way.

Here there is no competition, so far, so now ,you don't know horse racing, better go back to bed, player hater. If you aren't ready to lift BB to the hights of Affimed, Seattle Slew, Secretariat, or Citation then you don't know horse racing. I can already here the cries , "no! we aren't saying he's in that league" ,but when you say "triple crown" thats the only league there is.

He has got to do more,if can't run against fast 3 year olds then he must run fast times.

[Shenanigans]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]

You know damn well that often times these "positives" are baloney regarding the drug involved and the miniscule amount detected....many times, it would have had absolutely no effect on the outcome of the race.

QUOTE]

You really are naive on the subject aren't you.:rolleyes:

[Shenanigans]

Losers ALWAYS hate winners! Reminds me of the great scene in the Clubhouse in the movie "Let it Ride!" where Richard Dreyfus rasberries them and calls the crowd a bunch of "stuffy rat bastards".:D :D :D

Not everyone has to be a fan of the winner of the Derby. I will respect the horse, but I don't have to respect the trainer.
BTW, I am a far cry from being a "loser". I have been successful in this game and currently my pinhooking ventures are exciting and promising. I just have a problem with cheaters giving a bigger black eye to the industry I care about.

[highnote]

BB deserves the win. I don't see anyone who can challenge him in the Preakness. The Belmont could be different. Especially if Kent D gives him the same ride he gave Real Quiet in the Belmont. Desormeaux moved too early on RQ. If he could've waited just a bit longer he might have won. Turns out RQ was a good horse and he's a decent sire and I think he will prove to be an influential sire.

But back to BB. We know that he is juiced with anabolic steroids. Dutrow even says so. It is not illegal. But do we hold McGwire and Bonds in the same high esteem as Ruth, Aaron and Maris?

That's not to say McGwire, Sosa and Bonds don't deserve accolades. But Ruth hit his 60 homers when there were only 8 teams in the American league. By 1961 there were 10 AL teams and 162 games -- so the pitching had become diluted.

Now they play interleague games against 30 some teams and those 3 batters were allegedly using steroids.

Secretariat set three track records in three triple crown races. Not to mention a world record at 12 furlongs in the Belmont. He also ran his Derby 1 or 2 seconds faster than BB.

So BB deserves kudos, but it's a different era. Sadly, we'll never know how good BB would be without drugs. So there is no way to compare his true and innate ability with Secretariat's.

[GlenninOhio]

Might I suggest some additional reasons Big Brown has a leg up (pardon the pun) on a Triple Crown?

1. His biggest potential rival in the Preakness was euthanized 7 minutes after the Derby. He finished 8-1/4 lengths ahead of Denis of Cork in 3rd.

2. The second choice in the Derby betting - Colonel John - appears to have been a synthetic track phenomenon.

3. The third choice in the Derby betting and the only remaining horse to go off at single-digit odds - Pyro - seems to have blown away the "throw out the Blue Grass" theory of his backers.

While others can always enter the Triple Crown picture in a big way from outside the Deby field - perhaps the Japanese contingent now in training at Belmont - and 3 tough races in 5 weeks is extremely challenging for any horse, it's looking pretty good right now for the "black shades and black limos" set.

[discodog]

Please Please Please, do not EVER try to compare Big Brown with Secretariat, in fact with all respect to the Late Bud Delp don't even try to compare him to Spectactular Bid. There are no comparisions if you know anything about this game.

[phatbastard]

what a TC party it will be.....maybe even Greg Martin will join the fun in IEAH tent and help sell that Hedge fund

http://www.ieah.com/cgi-bin/news_article.cgi?news_id=1000025


and some speculators to join the fun

http://www.hbpa.org/newsdisplay.asp?section=3&key1=6987


i have nothing against what looks to be at this time, the best horse of his generation..the smarmyness of the outfit is disgusting

[Bruddah]

and I have enjoyed reading all the comments. I agree, Big Brown is a phenom and deserves his accolades. He's definitely very capable of winning the Triple Crown, versus this years crop of 3 yo's. I asked in another thread, What if we have a Triple Crown winner? Never mentioning any horse by name. I expected bright, smart, intuitive comments, yet got raked over the coals for saying this was a weak crop of 3 yo's, in my opinion. I was also challenged to prove my "opinion", which I did. I think Big Brown raced against a bunch of 'PIGS', but he can only run against whose in the race. He certainly proved he is the SUPERIOR ANIMAL of this years crop of 3yo's.

In conclusion I ask, isn't that all that a Triple Crown Winner can be? The Superior Animal of its' generation. I say if Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, he should be recognized as such. The questions of who would have beaten whom, is purely speculation backed up by selective statistics and personal prejudice. Let's all just enjoy the moment and hope whatever happens will be good for Horse Racing. :) :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

Why should horse racing be any different than any other facet of our culture?

We reward and revel in drug users and cheats every day. We contribute to it in movie theaters and sports parks all over our country. We buy millions in magazines and electronics to participate. Why should horse racing be any different.

[Bruddah]

Why should horse racing be any different than any other facet of our culture?

We reward and revel in drug users and cheats every day. We contribute to it in movie theaters and sports parks all over our country. We buy millions in magazines and electronics to participate. Why should horse racing be any different.

However, one needs to diregard his (Big Browns) ownership and the competitive level of the other entrants. I continue to ask, What if we have a Triple Crown winner. I came to the conclusion that a Triple Crown Winner means nothing more than the best of it's generation. The horse has no control of human factors. All they can control is winning the three TC races and defeating whose put in the race.

I don't advocate celebrating or idolizing "cheats", questionable ownership or social issues of our times. I do believ in celebrating any HORSE which is the best of its' generation. Very few have obtained that. Triple Crown Winner does not mean best of al time or all generations. :)

Besides, We don't have a TC winner yet!

[PaceAdvantage]

You really are naive on the subject aren't you.:rolleyes:You really think so? School me on the Bill Mott positive.

[PaceAdvantage]

So BB deserves kudos, but it's a different era. Sadly, we'll never know how good BB would be without drugs. So there is no way to compare his true and innate ability with Secretariat's.Are you trying to suggest that anabolic steroids did not exist in 1972, 1973? If so, you are mistaken. Not only did they exist, but they were very much in use by athletes and were formally banned by the IOC in 1967.....and if humans were using them in the 60s, you can imagine that many horse trainers were using them in the 70s and beyond.....

[highnote]

Are you trying to suggest that anabolic steroids did not exist in 1972, 1973? If so, you are mistaken. Not only did they exist, but they were very much in use by athletes and were formally banned by the IOC in 1967.....and if humans were using them in the 60s, you can imagine that many horse trainers were using them in the 70s and beyond.....


Good point. Maybe Secretariat was a super horse because he was given anabolic steroids?

That would be a disappointment. But would I be naive to believe the possibility doesn't exist?

[SaratogaSteve]

Ya'll are nuts.

You're not going to deny me the supreme pleasure of watching and appreciating a horse with such talent as Big Brown. I don't give a flying **** who or what his connections are, were, or will be in the future.

I am a fan of HORSE RACING. I am not a fan of TRAINERS or OWNERS or whatever other baggage you or anyone else wants to bring into this discussion.

Ya'll (and by Ya'll, I mean all the killjoys looking to tear this process down) need to take that two ton chip off of your shoulder. Either you're a fan of horse racing or you're not.

If you're a fan, then your heart was racing as fast as mine was watching Big Brown accelerate to the front and then draw off to a huge win after breaking from the 20 hole and racing WIDE ASS WIDE the whole way around.

If you can't appreciate that kind of talent for what it is, then it's probably best you stop paying attention to the game.

Bravo to PA.

I'm relatively new to the board, but not new to the game. I am blown away at the negativity, skepticism, paranoia, and bitching/moaning of some "fans" [not necessarily the author of the thread] here. You either like the game or you don't - there are creeps, inconsistencies, and illegal ongoings w/ all sports. Work productively to address the issues - don't hit caps lock and go on with "...another reason this game is in trouble..." - it's also in trouble because a significant chunk of the fan base would like it fixed for them, and not contribute to the fix.

[Light]

I think Dutrow is the reason this horse has a big shot at the TC.

Drugs alone will not make winners. Its a multidimensional sport and Dutrow knows how to play it. There was a whole thread on how stupid Dutrow is for picking pp#20. Now he makes all those who criticized him look stupid.

The test will come when this supposedly "weakest crop" of 3yo's (this is said every year),has one of them wake up as happened to Smarty Jones. I've never been open to a horse winning the TC. But this trainer/horse combo is impressive.

[PaceAdvantage]

The only thing that is going to stop BB are those damn feet of his....it's going to take quite a team of talented people to keep those feet together through the Triple Crown.

Over the years, everyone has been rooting FOR a Triple Crown winner, and it hasn't come. Perhaps this year, with many rooting AGAINST this potential Triple Crown winner, the racing gods will allow it to come to pass....