Eight Belles - R. I. P.

[DJofSD]

Put down on the track after having broken both front ankles.

[ny0707ny]

Put down on the track after having broken both front ankles.

Should have never run her in the Derby.

[ny0707ny]

She would have won the Oaks. She came in 2nd here. Fillies don't belong with the colts.

[russowen77]

Should have never run her in the Derby.

100% agreement.

It was the reason I didn't want War Pass to run in the thing. She should have been celebrating in the barn after winning the oaks.

To sin with Larry Jones and her owners.

[PaceAdvantage]

She would have won the Oaks. She came in 2nd here. Fillies don't belong with the colts.Please. Stop. Fillies don't belong with the colts? Just stop. They do it all the time without breaking down.....

[PaceAdvantage]

100% agreement.

It was the reason I didn't want War Pass to run in the thing. She should have been celebrating in the barn after winning the oaks.

To sin with Larry Jones and her owners.Another genius.

You know, for all the people who redboard winners, there is something much more that I detest, and that's people who REDBOARD BREAKDOWNS.

That's just way more despicable in my opinion.

[ny0707ny]

100% agreement.

It was the reason I didn't want War Pass to run in the thing. She should have been celebrating in the barn after winning the oaks.

To sin with Larry Jones and her owners.

There goes a shot to horse racing again. I was hoping it would be more popular once again. Just lost loads of new fans here with that fatal injury.

[singunner]

She took second against a monster. She belonged more than 18 other horses.

[xfile]

It's just a shame. She ran her eyeballs out. No Big Brown in here and she destroys this field.

[MidwayCat]

She took second against a monster. She belonged more than 18 other horses.

+1

Oh the irony... if she won this race and could not be draped in roses. :mad:

[Valupix]

She was good enough to be there, but she wasn't ready for such a momentous class hike.

My guess, as with just about every Derby, she won't be the only one that will never race again. Hopefully none of the others lose there lives.

[singunner]

I told my mom to bet her to show. I don't know if she'll be able to cash the ticket. :(

[ny0707ny]

It's just a shame. She ran her eyeballs out. No Big Brown in here and she destroys this field.

Yeah she was one of the better horses in this terrible field this year. I thought she would do well. I can't believe she beat the others out though.

The theory holds true still. Bullet last workout and a triple digit beyer always wins since I been following the Derby in 2002. Seven years in a row now.

Colonel had the bullet last work but not the triple. I thought it was the poly for low numbers.

[russowen77]

Another genius.

You know, for all the people who redboard winners, there is something much more that I detest, and that's people who REDBOARD BREAKDOWNS.

That's just way more despicable in my opinion.

I don't even know what Redboard means. I had posted that same opinion before about 8 Belles and I loved her. She was hell here (OP) and was a great horse in the barn. This is the first horse I knew that has gone down like that. I sure knew she wouldn't quit and would keep running until she put herself in danger.

If redboarding means being saddened by lossing a fine horse like that makes me sad as hell and angry then I guess I am what you claim that I am.

BTW, I am just a horseman and for sure not a genius.

[ny0707ny]

Please. Stop. Fillies don't belong with the colts? Just stop. They do it all the time without breaking down.....

Chacing a monster horse like Big Brown is never a good thing for a fillie though. I rather see them with their own. Just my opinion. I know others will not agree with me on here as I can see.

They have their own race called the Oaks. Nothing wrong with winning that. It means just as much.

[blind squirrel]

We have just seen an indictment of dirt tracks{CD was always thought to
be the last track that would convert to Poly}.....there will be Polytrack
advocates that will say this tragedy could have been prevented.....can
Horse Racing,a sport with a multitude of problems,have a more horrendous
conclusion to it's premier event?

[MNslappy]

^ yeah, imagine if she would've won. could've easily happened.

[Marshall Bennett]

She would have won the Oaks. She came in 2nd here. Fillies don't belong with the colts.
Makes no sence . What difference does gender play in breaking down ?

[ny0707ny]

We have just seen an indictment of dirt tracks{CD was always thought to
be the last track that would convert to Poly}.....there will be Polytrack
advocates that will say this tragedy could have been prevented.....can
Horse Racing,a sport with a multitude of problems,have a more horrendous
conclusion to it's premier event?

It is sad. She did really good. When you see a fillie that has as much chance as the colts do, you know you got a terrible Derby field here. I think more polytrack will be installed. I wouldn't be shocked if we see it at Churchill one day.

[ny0707ny]

Makes no sence . What difference does gender play in breaking down ?

Filles can't run as fast as colts at this level of competition anyway. That is why I wanted her in the Oaks. They can beat the colts at lower levels though. That is why whenever I see a fillie in the Derby I get nervous all the time. Trying to run down a colt may be fun to watch but it can't be great for the fillie. I don't agree with it and I think they should stay in the Oaks races.

[Valupix]

We have just seen an indictment of dirt tracks{CD was always thought to
be the last track that would convert to Poly}.....there will be Polytrack
advocates that will say this tragedy could have been prevented.....can
Horse Racing,a sport with a multitude of problems,have a more horrendous
conclusion to it's premier event?
Oh Wow Squirrel, you have just unleashed a pack of wolves on you. These anti-synthetic goons are vicious folks. They will tear you apart for that comment.

I'll take a little of the heat off you and agree. I have been predicting by 2010 since last year.

[MNslappy]

Oh Wow Squirrel, you have just unleashed a pack of wolves on you. These anti-synthetic goons are vicious folks. They will tear you apart for that comment.

I'll take a little of the heat off you and agree. I have been predicting by 2010 since last year.

I could see them feeling like they have to for PR reasons, in order to avoid more headlines like this. http://drudgereport.com/

[JustRalph]

every time there is a high level break down.........

People log on in five minutes or less and react emotionally

That filly ran one hell of a race...............It's a damn shame.

She belonged and Larry Jones has run 2nd two years in a row.

Maybe a little wait before posting is in order

[banacek]

every time there is a high level break down.........

People log on in five minutes or less and react emotionally

That filly ran one hell of a race...............It's a damn shame.

She belonged and Larry Jones has run 2nd two years in a row.

Maybe a little wait before posting is in order

Great post, Ralph.:ThmbUp:

[chickenhead]

Filles can't run as fast as colts at this level of competition anyway.

She just ran faster than 18 of them at this level. Horses get injured sometimes. They break down in workouts, they break down in races against girls, they break down in races against boys.

That is why whenever I see a fillie in the Derby I get nervous all the time.

Since 2002, when you started watching, there hasn't been a "fillie" in the Derby. But I'm sure they appreciate you being nervous for them, all the time, all the same.

[russowen77]

every time there is a high level break down.........

People log on in five minutes or less and react emotionally

That filly ran one hell of a race...............It's a damn shame.

She belonged and Larry Jones has run 2nd two years in a row.

Maybe a little wait before posting is in order
Time won't change my opinion of this. She was a serious people horse and was on her way to be one of the dominant fillys of our time. She had so much heart it cost her. She was done but still kept running. She will be missed by all of us that were privaliged enough to have met her.

[ny0707ny]

Time won't change my opinion of this. She was a serious people horse and was on her way to be one of the dominant fillys of our time. She had so much heart it cost her. She was done but still kept running. She will be missed by all of us that were privaliged enough to have met her.

We got two groups here on this one. I don't think fillies should be chasing monster trucks. If someone thinks it is ok fine.

Proud Spell might have given her a run but I think she might have actually beat her. Country Star didn't deliver that day so Proud Spell would have been her only match.

[banacek]

Rags to Riches at a mile and a half?

[jma]

Great post, Ralph.:ThmbUp:

I'll second that.

There's nothing else to add right except that the whole idea that she didn't "belong" is ludicrous---she decisively beat every horse but one.

[DJofSD]

I don't think fillies should be chasing monster trucks.

Monster trucks? She happend to be the biggest horse in the race.

[ny0707ny]

Monster trucks? She happend to be the biggest horse in the race.
I ment chasing down Big Brown.

Gotta go guys! Fun chat!

[russowen77]

We got two groups here on this one. I don't think fillies should be chasing monster trucks. If someone thinks it is ok fine.

Proud Spell might have given her a run but I think she might have actually beat her. Country Star didn't deliver that day so Proud Spell would have been her only match.

Just my opinion but I think she would have killed Proud Spell. She ran a race here that she got clobbered at the start. Kiss of death for most animals. It didn't even seem to bother her. Settled down and destroyed an admitedly short field.

In this race she was worn out but just kept running. Huge heart. This one is going to me for a long time.

[russowen77]

Rags to Riches at a mile and a half?

Was Rags to Riches ever the same again?? Not in my opinion.

[chickenhead]

I'm just curious how you all think that she would've had such a massively low chance of breaking down yesterday, vs. today. Because she would have run much slower yesterday?

By that logic, every fast filly should be retired, lest they risk running fast. What the hell, lets retire all the fast boys while we're at it.

[pktruckdriver]

I think that this thread should be about a GREAT HORSE, 8 BELLES, who if one big freak'n horse BB did not run today, then we would be mourning the 134th KY Derby Champion.


I think this is not the thread to discuss sponge or dirt track ,whether she belonged or not, this is for the respect that we should be showing for a
GREAT HORSE, 8 BELLES, may she REST IN PEACE.


Patrick

[The WindfallAngler]

can Horse Racing,a sport with a multitude of problems,have a more horrendous
conclusion to it's premier event?

On the whole, doubtful. Hard to imagine, in fact.

[DeanT]

If it wasnt this week, it would have been next week Chick, or next week.

I am beginning to think the best horses in this game are freaks, who try so hard, that they put themselves at risk everytime they step on a racetrack. With speed breeding and all the rest, it happens more often now than before.

All mo.

I am a Big Brown fan, and it is dichotomous because I can't personally stand Dutrow, but that race just made me ill. Sometimes I wonder why we all love this sport. It is so tough to watch sometimes.

[MidwayCat]

On the whole, doubtful. Hard to imagine, in fact.

She could have won. That would top it.

[raybo]

You know I tried everything I could do to get Big Brown off the top row in my super but he was just too much for this field. My buddy had the filly 3rd and I had her 2nd but after looking at BB so long I decided that she couldn't stand what he had waiting and if she did she'd die, literally, in the stretch trying to catch him. So, I took her off my ticket. Dang, what a shame this had to happen to her, what heart she had. I don't want to ever hear again that she had no business in this race! What a horse, filly or not, she had the class.

[Marshall Bennett]

Rags to Riches at a mile and a half?
Yeah !! Whats that filly doing out there beating up on those colts ? They could get injured chasing her down !! :)

[joanied]

I think that this thread should be about a GREAT HORSE, 8 BELLES, who if one big freak'n horse BB did not run today, then we would be mourning the 134th KY Derby Champion.


I think this is not the thread to discuss sponge or dirt track ,whether she belonged or not, this is for the respect that we should be showing for a
GREAT HORSE, 8 BELLES, may she REST IN PEACE.


Patrick

Good post, Patrick :ThmbUp:

I waited a few hours before I came back here because I was too upset, needed some time, and knew I'd find some dang-dumb posts about Eight Belles...and running fillies vs colts in general.
I cannot stop thinking about Larry Jones and what he's going through...they cleary had a deep bond... I hope that he knows in his heart he did the right thing running Eight Belles...she deserved to be there and she prooved everything the nay-sayers are screaming against right now, aka the dang-dumb posts.
She was a Champion.
RIP :(

[tomcalta]

Should have run her with the boys?
She beat most of them... running with the boys did not lead to her demise. Its not like they savagely knocked her down and beat her... .

[AlanBaze]

What happen to Rags to Riches, Winning Colors, MMMM Ruffian. Seems like the Monsters will literally run themselves into the ground. These phillies may have the ability, and the heart to run with the boys, but to me it obviuos there not built to.

[ny0707ny]

What happen to Rags to Riches, Winning Colors, MMMM Ruffian. Seems like the Monsters will literally run themselves into the ground. These phillies may have the ability, and the heart to run with the boys, but to me it obviuos there not built to.

That is the point I was trying to make here. I actually got nervous when I saw her chasing Big Brown in the stretch. Most other sports you seperate the guys form the girls for the same reason. I thought more would be with me on this I guess not. Only a few are. I don't take anything from her. She did great in this race though.

[JPinMaryland]

Well so far this thread has to got to be tops for dumbest postings. And Im sorry to have to say that because I feel for the filly and connections

But gee whiz, she broke down in the gallop out! For Chrissakes she must have gone another furlough w/ no sign of anything.

Look at the tape again and try to think about what was a very freak break down. There are plenty of freak breakdowns in the sport.. :confused:

[DJofSD]

but to me it obviuos there not built to.

It's obvious to me you have no idea what you're talking about.

[ny0707ny]

Well so far this thread has to got to be tops for dumbest postings. And Im sorry to have to say that because I feel for the filly and connections

But gee whiz, she broke down in the gallop out! For Chrissakes she must have gone another furlough w/ no sign of anything.

Look at the tape again and try to think about what was a very freak break down. There are plenty of freak breakdowns in the sport.. :confused:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this. I differ with you but that is ok. I don't insult anyone for not agreeing with what I say. If you feel they belong with the boys all the time fine. I can find many that say they don't belong with them. It is a no-win argument.

[Marshall Bennett]

Can you just imagine the outcry if the derby were restricted to colts ? Think about it .

[Light]

Its not a gender issue. I think she ran her heart out and that's what led to her injury. Champions usually give 110%. Funny how no one said Barbaro was intimidated by his competition. But if the same thing happens to a filly as Barbaro, you get these ridiculous sexist remarks. Its a bit insensitive at this point.

[JPinMaryland]

Did you actually see the breakdown? I did not. Donna Brothers or whomever they had out there said the horse had pretty much slowed down to a...? I dunno, something she said made it sound like the horse was almost walking when it happened. This sounds like a freak injury to me...

It's hard to believe she did that in the stretch. Maybe it's possible but even so, then filly should never run fast? :confused:

[Kelso]

Running in the Derby didn't kill Eight Belles ... breeding for speed killed her.

Her bones didn't break because she chased the leader ... they broke because her breeding made them weak.

IMO.

[PurplePower]

Its not a gender issue. I think she ran her heart out and that's what led to her injury. Champions usually give 110%. Funny how no one said Barbaro was intimidated by his competition. But if the same thing happens to a filly as Barbaro, you get these ridiculous sexist remarks. Its a bit insensitive at this point.As a trainer I do not like the idea of running a filly against males. Light, you made a good point regarding champions running that hard. Go for Wand against Bayakoa was an example of female against female and neither giving quarter. Whether Eight Belles would have broken both ankles in (or just after) the Oaks is speculation and (as PA said) a worse kind of redboarding than talking about picking winners after the fact.

I revere the racehorse because racehorses are the epitome of heart. We talk about heart in other sports, but I see heart (and the lack of heart) demonstrated daily - it is what gave me the thrill of seeing one of my horses crossing the finish line first and the sadness of seeing one pull up lame. Kent D. said it after the race, "My horse showed you his heart, the filly showed you her life". Ring the Bells eight times tonight.

[Living Flame]

Oh geez, the breakdown had NOTHING to do with her being against the boys. Yes it could be a freak accident, but I don't think so. Personally I think it has to do with modern breeding practices and meds (legal meds) she may have been on.

I have a friend who dislikes Unbridled's Song as a sire, due to unsoundness issues. When I was handicapping the derby and checking out her pedigree, I thought about that. So I figured maybe she would have soundness issues and might, like so many modern horses, not be able to race all that much before she's retired to injury.

I wound up choosing her as kind of a hunch bet, and she ran incredibly well. She made a huge move and for a second I thought she might almost beat Big Brown.

Bottom line: If she had run that well against Proud Spell or whoever, she would have hurt herself, too. I read that they are going to do an autopsy on her, so hopefully that'll shed some light on what happened.

I just think what happened to her is really spooky and horribly sad. :(

[PurplePower]

Can you just imagine the outcry if the derby were restricted to colts ? Think about it .There would be an outcry Marshall, but I for one wouldn't mind if they did restrict the Derby to Colts and Geldings. Main reason is not because of any "females are inferior" reason, but because a filly can keep a colt (or gelding) from running in the Derby and the males do not have "equal opportunity" to enter the Oaks. What would be the Hue and Cry if the Oaks was opened to Geldings (poor guys, they don't have a race restricted to just Geldings!! ;) )

We like the competition of male against female in most sports -- and it draws attention of the non regular racing fans. (Sadly, that actually may have been to our disadvantage today.) So, we will continue to have races restricted to females and "open" races for the most part. (One of things I liked about training at Fairgrounds when Mervin Muniz was Racing Secretary is that he wrote maiden races restricted to colts and geldings.)

[DJofSD]

I wonder how the race and this tragedy will play out in the newspapers on Sunday.

[ny0707ny]

I wonder how the race and this tragedy will play out in the newspapers on Sunday.

Not good for the sport. We lost loads of fans with Barbaro. Many won't go back next year. Expect to read a lot more on her and the Derby. A lot more opinions will come next week probably.

[MNslappy]

I wonder how the race and this tragedy will play out in the newspapers on Sunday.

It's not good......Unfortunately, these high profile breakdowns are the prism through which a lot of the unwashed masses are going to view the sport now...because as rare as we all know these tragedies are, damn it, it keeps happening in and around major events. I wouldnt doubt that there are tons of people out there right now who probably think this kind of thing happens once per card. I mean just look at the front page of these news websites....

Shock: Death at Derby
http://drudgereport.com/

Horse Racing's Disturbing Side
http://www.washingtonpost.com/

Filly’s Death Casts Shadow Over Big Brown’s Derby Victory
http://www.nytimes.com/

[Burls]

every time there is a high level break down.........

People log on in five minutes or less and react emotionally

That filly ran one hell of a race...............It's a damn shame.

She belonged and Larry Jones has run 2nd two years in a row.

Maybe a little wait before posting is in order

I agree fully.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[eastie]

Did you actually see the breakdown? I did not. Donna Brothers or whomever they had out there said the horse had pretty much slowed down to a...? I dunno, something she said made it sound like the horse was almost walking when it happened. This sounds like a freak injury to me...

It's hard to believe she did that in the stretch. Maybe it's possible but even so, then filly should never run fast? :confused:

she was galloping out, not almost in a walk when she broke down. I don't know if anyone else ntoiced but she kind of bobbleed a little on the far turn. She then came on strongly to be second, but she could have been running hard despite the injury and the breakdown was the result of it. She ran huge, no doubt about that, and to think she might have whipped the others while injured makes it even tougher to swallow. She went down very hard. It is a tragedy, as was Chiluke's breaking down yesterday. Sad to see this stuff. It took me a long time to recover from Go For Wand.

[ny0707ny]

she was galloping out, not almost in a walk when she broke down. I don't know if anyone else ntoiced but she kind of bobbleed a little on the far turn. She then came on strongly to be second, but she could have been running hard despite the injury and the breakdown was the result of it. She ran huge, no doubt about that, and to think she might have whipped the others while injured makes it even tougher to swallow. She went down very hard. It is a tragedy, as was Chiluke's breaking down yesterday. Sad to see this stuff. It took me a long time to recover from Go For Wand.

A big stress race for her no doubt. She also had to go from 1 1/16 to 1 1/4 miles. Never facing males in any previous race before this either. I think it was too much to ask of her even though most do not agree with me on this issue it seems. Horses are not machines. I worry about the horse first. Anything that causes the horse more stress I am never for.

[PaceAdvantage]

Chacing a monster horse like Big Brown is never a good thing for a fillie though. I rather see them with their own. Just my opinion. I know others will not agree with me on here as I can see.

They have their own race called the Oaks. Nothing wrong with winning that. It means just as much.Yeah, and the connections of Eight Belles WON the Oaks the day before with another filly. They saved their BEST for the Derby. Her performance on the track completely JUSTIFIED her being entered and run in the race. Larry Jones obviously knew what he was doing when he put her in the Derby.

[PaceAdvantage]

Anything that causes the horse more stress I am never for.Then you should quit being a fan of the sport. Because nothing is EVER going to be more STRESSFUL on a horse than racing him OR her....

[russowen77]

A few points.

I think she belonged in the race as far as her ability to compete. She was bred for the distance and it showed. I flat out loved that horse and she sure performed well at OP.

I will admit I don't like fillys in 20 horse fields especially where half of them had no shot. I don't like milers like War Pass in the race either. Not ones raced on national TV for sure due to the increased chance for injury.

I don't think dirt had anything to do with it.

My main problem comes down to the fact that the sport is going through some really hard times now. We need new blood or it is going to die a slow death and that effects a whole lot of people including handicappers. In a year where we have chance to re-energize racing with a real triple crown contender we have just lost another group of potential fans.

When I talk about horseman I am not talking owners for the most part but all the people who work with the stock. All the costs are rising and farms are already starting to go out of buisness and I can't see the trend reversing itself anytime soon. This was a loss that will be felt for years and just gives more ammo to the anti-racing crowd.

I have been saying the same mantra since I came on this board so I sure don't understand the stuff about saying something after a race that I had not stated before.

I started out with stock, spent most of my adult life in the military mostly in ordanance and then went back to stock. Maybe my lifestyle shaped my thinking but I am very conservative when it comes to placing of horses in the race.

If "Joe Snuffy" breaks down tommorrow at a minor track it will be sad but it won't have any real impact on the sport except for the stat sheet. The industry as a whole took a real hit yesterday and we don't need those right now. Most of us, stockmen, are just not as well heeled as many of the members of the board are here. Handles are going down and so will the jobs unless the trend is reversed. We took another major hit yesterday.

[DJofSD]

The LA Times had a fairly balanced report:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/horseracing/la-sp-derby4-2008may04,0,93303.story
From the Los Angeles Times
KENTUCKY DERBY
Tragedy mars Kentucky Derby as the only filly dies after race
Eight Belles euthanized after finishing second to favorite Big Brown.
By Larry Stewart
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

May 4, 2008

LOUISVILLE, Ky. -- It was a Brown Derby, a Big Brown Derby, on a surprisingly clear sunny day Saturday at Churchill Downs.

A day after heavy rain had soaked the folks at the Kentucky Oaks, everything came up roses for favored Big Brown, who started from the outside post position 20 and was well in front at the end of the 134th running of the Kentucky Derby.

But while there was joy in the Big Brown camp, there was sadness being felt with those connected to Eight Belles.

After finishing second, 4 3/4 lengths behind Big Brown, Eight Belles, attempting to become the fourth filly to win the Kentucky Derby, suffered two compound fractured front ankles while galloping out and was euthanized on the track near the start of the backstretch.

The fatal injury brought gloom to an otherwise bright day, as 157,770 fans turned out. It was the second-largest crowd in Derby history, topped only by the 163,628 who attended in 1974.

And the tragedy also detracted from a marvelous race run by Big Brown, who became the only horse besides Clyde Van Dusen in 1929 to win from the 20th post. And he became the first Derby winner with only three previous starts since Regret in 1915.

Now, the question is: Can Big Brown become horse racing's first Triple Crown winner since Affirmed in 1978?


But the San Diego Union -- if it bleeds it leads:
(Image removed by admin)

[KingChas]

Wondering if one will be performed?
Just didn't look right,and jockey claims she wobbled just before breaking down.
Did Eight Belles possibly suffer a mini stroke, heart attack,or possible seizure just before this happened?

[NY BRED]

Call it like it is:

As an owner, and and a 24/7 warrior, realize the loss
of any horse is a crushing blow to an owner and all connections.

Larry Jones felt the filly was up to this race and were it not for Big Brown
winning, the Racing community have been dealt a catatrophic blow from
this event.

To state a filly vs colts is the cause of her death is insane as this injury
could have occured at any future date against Graded stakes races for fillies.


My observation is the track appears to have been sealed in a manner to create super fast times which placed ALL of these horses at risk.

Perhaps those of you with data bases and stats could compare the interim
fractions on 5/3/08 to the balance of races run on dirt since CD opened
several weeks ago.

God bless this filly and owner and trainer for their courage in this
difficult time.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did Eight Belles possibly suffer a mini stroke, heart attack,or possible seizure just before this happened?No, she broke both her front legs. She probably started breaking them as she was racing towards the finish line, but adreneline carried her to where she ultimately collapsed and died, and to the point where the ankles ultimately blew out. There is no great mystery here.

[PaceAdvantage]

My observation is the track appears to have been sealed in a manner to create super fast times which placed ALL of these horses at risk.Super fast times? Or just a general higher grade of animal running for a majority of the card.

After all, the 8.5 furlong race directly after the Derby went in 1:44 1/5 with a mile split of 1:37 3/5....hardly "super-fast"...but then again, these were only NW1 X allowance horses, not graded stakes runners like much of the earlier part of the card saw....

If your observation were true, then more than one horse should have been injured or died on Saturday.

[KingChas]

There is no great mystery here.

Just showed interview with Larry Jones on tv.
Autopsy will be done.
Then there will be no great mystery here either.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just showed interview with Larry Jones on tv.
Autopsy will be done.
Then there will be no great mystery here either.Only because it's probably required by some general law or racing statute....not because these specific circumstances are shrouded in some great mystery as to how she broke her legs.

[DJofSD]

Breaking both ankles seems a bit out of the ordinary. I am doubtful they both were actually broken while the race was being run. Maybe one but not both.

I wonder if there was some kind of ligament damge to one leg during the stretch run and then after crossing the finish line the other leg suffered a similar problem. If she could not or would not pull up quickly enough (if the rider even knew there was something wrong) it would eventually cause a total failure of the ability of the legs to keep the pasterns upright.

Has the jock been interviewed about what, if anything, he felt while running down the stretch?

[Vinnie]

Hello PA:

I am totally in agreement with your posts on this subject. It was indeed a horrible tragedy with what occurred with the eventual breakdown of Eight Belles (for her and her connections) immediately following the race. It really put a damper on my day and I couldn't watch any more races after this yesterday. She ran her heart out, but, unfortunately, this is a horrible thing that occasionally occurs in this sport that we love so very much. It didn't matter when or where she was running or whom she might be running against. It is incredibly unfortunate just the same. What phenomenal heart and courage she displayed in running such a "huge effort" in yesterdays Derby. It shouldn't be marginalized by so much speculation and conjecture. God Rest her soul and my heart goes out to her and her connections. Every horse is special and incredible in my eyes.

I was only nine years old when "BIG RED" dispatched all those he faced in the Belmont of 1973. I have only seen his incredible effort on film and it remains just as breathtaking each and every time I see it. Big Brown coming from the #20 spot and winning the Derby in such a fashion with his explosive move at the end as he did yesterday is something that I will not soon forget. Never mind the connections, I am pulling for this fabulous horse to do it all. I truly hope that we have our next Triple Crown Winner in Big Brown. :)

Have a Great Sunday everyone.

[JustRalph]

I saw an overhead shot and it looked to me like she tried to stop, and abruptly planted both feet and then they just gave out from under her.

They both went at the same time, as far as I could tell

[Marshall Bennett]

Perhaps she simply broke one ankle and upon falling she broke the other ?

[Shenanigans]

Autopsies are performed for the racetrack's interest and owners' insurance purposes.

The filly did not break her leg in the race. Not saying something wasn't wrong during the race (I said something was wrong with her lugging in in her last two starts) but the break occurred right where it happened. Being on the turn, on the left lead, I would guess she broke her right first, threw all her weight on her left while catching herself. Her left was in the worse shape of the two. A sign that it took the brunt of her weight. Her lugging in is a sign of her getting off something hurting on the right.

[classhandicapper]

Did anyone actually see the breakdown?

I didn't see it.

Everyone is saying how unusual it is to break down in both front ankles like that. I was wondering if she was just so exhausted from her effort, as she was collapsing and going down she did it in such an uncoordinated way both ankles gave out. ???

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe the autopsy will show she had some sort of brittle bone disease forming or some other congenital defect that made her ankles deteriorate to the point that this race caused them both to blow at the end. If so, it was bound to happen at some point, whether or not she ever raced in the Kentucky Derby.

[DJofSD]

Mike, I've been wondering about the same thing.

I expect that a horse like Big Brown has had a series of radiographs for sales and insurance purposes. I'd like to be a fly on the wall when those comparisons were being made by a vet. I doubt those details will be made public -- probably not any of the publics business to start with -- but having been in those circumstances, it's not fun but if you can learn something from it, it's not a total loss. Sad, tragic, disheartening, for sure but you can not expect life let alone racing to be 100% risk free.

[JPinMaryland]

Did anyone actually see the breakdown?

I didn't see it. Everyone is saying how unusual it is to break down in both front ankles like that...

Well, I dont think they said it exactly like that. They asked Dr Bramlage right after the race and what he said was the "context" in which she broke it was unusual. By that I think he meant, breaking them both in the gallop out. But he didnt specify so it remains open...

The reason I think that is what he meant is that you can find horses that have broke both fronts. Wyndotcomma (sp?) was a horse in training who broke them both down in FL a few years back. Snack was a horse from Indiana who was then purchased and ran in the Santa Catalina I think and he broke both on the back stretch, just snapped them both at the same time. Did Pine Island break both during the BC juv filly?

I dont even follow horses much and I can think of those off the top. So it cant be that unusual.

So that is why I THINK he means in the gallop out. But I could be totally wrong.

[JPinMaryland]

The filly did not break her leg in the race. Not saying something wasn't wrong during the race (I said something was wrong with her lugging in in her last two starts) but the break occurred right where it happened. Being on the turn, on the left lead, I would guess she broke her right first...

Well you got me. If she didnt break it during the race, she broke it on the turn. Do you mean on the turn in the GALLOP OUT? Or are you talking on the turn IN THE RACE?

Real confusing post. Sorry, not to disparage your comments which seem well thought out.

[Norm]

Did anyone actually see the breakdown?

I didn't see it.

Everyone is saying how unusual it is to break down in both front ankles like that. I was wondering if she was just so exhausted from her effort, as she was collapsing and going down she did it in such an uncoordinated way both ankles gave out. ???
Watch the replay of the stretch drive a few times. She bobbles at the 3/16 pole then shortens stride three strides after the 1/8th pole.

[Shenanigans]

Well you got me. If she didnt break it during the race, she broke it on the turn. Do you mean on the turn in the GALLOP OUT? Or are you talking on the turn IN THE RACE?

Real confusing post. Sorry, not to disparage your comments which seem well thought out.

Gallop out.

[winningponies]

Watch the replay of the stretch drive a few times. She bobbles at the 3/16 pole then shortens stride three strides after the 1/8th pole.

Yea it also seems like she turns her head in the stretch as if something was bothering her.

[Kelso]

When I talk about horseman I am not talking owners for the most part but all the people who work with the stock. All the costs are rising and farms are already starting to go out of buisnessRuss,
To whom are you referring when you write of "stock" and "people who work with the stock?" Do you mean the trainers? Is your comment regarding farms about breeding farms, or more the layoff rest stops (again, then, a trainer angle)?

[classhandicapper]

So that is why I THINK he means in the gallop out. But I could be totally wrong.

You're probably right, but it's not unusual for a horse to break down after the finish line. So maybe they meant the combination of both things.

[Semipro]

Rags to Riches at a mile and a half?Rags to Riches ran a great race to head Curlin but wasn't that her last race. My memory is failing me at the moment but I remember a match race probably in the eighties between a male and female both thought to be the best of thier gender and both I believe name started with the letter A (someboby give me some help here) but the filly was undefeated and had never been headed in any race. I told my brother before the race that when the male horse heads her I think she will break down because she has to much heart to lose and it happened exactly like I predicted and it's probably just superstition but I always pray for the fillies when in against the boys.

[ny0707ny]

Rags to Riches ran a great race to head Curlin but wasn't that her last race. My memory is failing me at the moment but I remember a match race probably in the eighties between a male and female both thought to be the best of thier gender and both I believe name started with the letter A (someboby give me some help here) but the filly was undefeated and had never been headed in any race. I told my brother before the race that when the male horse heads her I think she will break down because she has to much heart to lose and it happened exactly like I predicted and it's probably just superstition but I always pray for the fillies when in against the boys.

I don't like to see women playing football with the men in the NFL one day in the future, and I don't like it in horse racing at the upper levels either. It is not for me.

[Devon5]

Semipro, I think it is Ruffian (a in last slyable) of whom you are thinking. She ran a match race against Pleasant Colony ( or Pleasant something or other). The horse's trainer was very ungratious (not onlike some of the posts in this tread) saying that is what you expect when a 3 yo filly goes against a 3 yo male.

Does anyone remember the trainer's name? I could "always look it up" i suppose.

[ny0707ny]

Semipro, I think it is Ruffian (a in last slyable) of whom you are thinking. She ran a match race against Pleasant Colony ( or Pleasant something or other). The horse's trainer was very ungratious (not onlike some of the posts in this tread) saying that is what you expect when a 3 yo filly goes against a 3 yo male.

Does anyone remember the trainer's name? I could "always look it up" i suppose.

I remember reading about that years go. I would not watch a filly vs male in a match race ever. Im totally against it and don't support that type of entertainment. I don't remember his name. I think it happend in the 1970s.

[JustRalph]

I remember reading about that years go. I would not watch a filly vs male in a match race ever. Im totally against it and don't support that type of entertainment. I don't remember his name. I think it happend in the 1970s.


you guys ever heard of google.........


Btw, the country stopped to watch that race. You saying you wouldn't watch it??? You are nuts. Anybody who was a horse racing fan was watching that race and if it came up today............you would watch it..........come on???

It was on national TV and the sport got through it. If I remember right Jim Mckay was covering it. He was a huge Horse Racing fan and he about died on the air covering it. I was about fifteen watching it on TV.

Not sure how accurate this link is.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruffian_(horse)

[ny0707ny]

you guys ever heard of google.........


Btw, the country stopped to watch that race. You saying you wouldn't watch it??? You are nuts. Anybody who was a horse racing fan was watching that race and if it came up today............you would watch it..........come on???

It was on national TV and the sport got through it. If I remember right Jim Mckay was covering it. He was a huge Horse Racing fan and he about died on the air covering it. I was about fifteen watching it on TV.

Not sure how accurate this link is.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruffian_(horse)

I love Google I use it everyday. To be honest I was too lazy to check up on it before:bang: :D

[bigmack]

My sentiments exactly:

"It's amazing it doesn't happen more often," trainer Nick Zito said after stating the familiar refrain that racehorses run "about 45 miles per hour on ankles no bigger than yours or mine" while carrying 1,000 pounds. "I've been wearing Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s hat all week. He lost his dad [during the 2001 Daytona 500], a tremendous figure in that sport, and he lost his life. When you operate on a high level, the risks are higher. [In the Derby,] that filly ran her guts out and that's the way it is. There are other sports that have injuries, too. It's a very unfortunate thing."

[ryesteve]

you guys ever heard of google.........I'm kinda disappointed anyone here would even need google for this one. It's like being on a baseball forum and seeing people talking about, "That fat guy who used hit a lot homeruns for the Yankees... I forget his name..."

[46zilzal]

Please. Stop. Fillies don't belong with the colts? Just stop. They do it all the time without breaking down.....
Pebbles, Miesque, Lady's Secret, Ta Wee, Personal Ensign and multiple sprinters...

[JPinMaryland]

Was it SHuvee who won the JCGC back to back? This was when it was like 12f. Freakin nuts.

[JustRalph]

I'm kinda disappointed anyone here would even need google for this one. It's like being on a baseball forum and seeing people talking about, "That fat guy who used hit a lot homeruns for the Yankees... I forget his name..."

:lol: I heard an interesting stat about that fat guy last week.

He was a full time pitcher for five seasons and only batted every five days...........can you imagine what five more seasons of playing every day could have done for his home run total and his total stats?

They might still be chasing him..............

[Kelso]

:lol: I heard an interesting stat about that fat guy last week.

He was a full time pitcher for five seasons and only batted every five days...........can you imagine what five more seasons of playing every day could have done for his home run total and his total stats?

They might still be chasing him..............

And Ted Williams would still be in at least 2nd place on the career HR list if it weren't for 5 seasons lost to 2 wars. (Also likely in top 5 career hits and BA.)

[joanied]

I remember reading about that years go. I would not watch a filly vs male in a match race ever. Im totally against it and don't support that type of entertainment. I don't remember his name. I think it happend in the 1970s.

Foolish Pleasure vs Ruffian... July 1976.

Not to get into details about the Match Race....but beleive me, Ruffian did not break down because she was running against a colt, or was headed by him and broke down because she refused to let him go by. Ridiculous.
She was an accident waiting to happen. Both her dam & sire broke legs. Reviewer was a very unsound horse and Ruffian got the worst of both parents, and the way she ran didn't help her.
I was there... the race should never have been run, but as it didn't start out to be a match race, once it was set up, it had to go...you know, all that 'pressure' to run... but Ruffian would have broke down at some point in her race career.
She was a freak of nature, an incredible race horse, but please, do not beleive her breakdown had anything at all to do with Foolish Pleasure...she could have been in a match race with another filly, it still would have happened.

[Marshall Bennett]

If racing were all about match races , I beleive there would be a much lower percentage of breakdowns . Less traffic , clipping heels . ect . Its a shame we don't have at least a few now & then . :cool:

[lcohen]

Then you should quit being a fan of the sport. Because nothing is EVER going to be more STRESSFUL on a horse than racing him OR her....
Sharpest post in this thread

Thanks for the laughs guys

[eastie]

:lol: I heard an interesting stat about that fat guy last week.

He was a full time pitcher for five seasons and only batted every five days...........can you imagine what five more seasons of playing every day could have done for his home run total and his total stats?

They might still be chasing him..............

he also stole home 10 times, and could really move those little legs. My dad who saw him play for years said he was positively the best player ever to play. He says Cobb was a real SOB who you wouldn't dare look straight in the eye. Teddy Ballgame was great at anything he did. He and Mr. Yawkey used to drop pigeons at fenway with rifles and slingshots. If he hadn't spent so much time in the war, he would have rewrote the books. And he a damn good pilot too, as well as a world class fisherman.
I bet he would have been a great trip handicapper.