Any sense on if this CD wagering will be resolved?

[Ron]

Anybody have a sense on if this will be resolved by Saturday or not?

I also see CD is listed as a track on the NYRA.com wagering menu? How can that be?

[ponypro]

There seems to be a very weird news blackout on this issue.

The only brilliant news from the Bob Evans customer care team is that 10 cent supers have been recinded for oaks/Derby day. Thats right 1$ minimum so you are forced to bet more than you normally would

I am sure Ian watches in amaizement as these people abuse their customers


TwinLiars.com
For Lawyers, By Lawyers

[NoCal Boy]

There does appear to be a lack of current news on this ADW impasse. It is clear from reading the Churchill complaint that the THG not only wants 1/3 of the gross, but are requiring non-exclusivity of signals. It is required in the model THG agreement which is attached to the complaint.

The complaint is rather devoid of legal analysis (i.e. points and authorities in support of the complaint). Need to see those before it gets interesting. Also, the first Judge recused himself, likely due to a conflict of interest in some fashion. No Judge had yet been appointed.

Still believe open access for a fee of 5-5.5% would work for THG and ADW's alike. The THG will not get 1/3 of the gross, but can still get open access with a higher fee in return.

Meanwhile, we all simply wait around.

[NoCal Boy]

As for news releases, remember the ADW's are big advertisers for the racing rags. You think that factors into the equation at all??

[ponypro]

No question there is a gag order for the talking heads on TV and also advertising sponsors. Its kind of funny. Not only is there an Elephant in the room it is literally sitting on their lap and they pretend like nothing is going on.

Saturday one of the HRTV talking heads was interviewing a trainer after he just won a race at CD and the Interviewer tried to hype a response "does it feel special to win a race here during derby week"

The response. Not really I thought there would be more people here for the Derby trial"

Nice job Bob Evans

[JustRalph]

I have read in two places that the Derby and Oaks will be available...........they are a seperate negotiation............

[Ron]

I have read in two places that the Derby and Oaks will be available...........they are a seperate negotiation............

As well as the Woodford Reserve Turf Classic on Saturday.

http://www.twinspires.com/content/news/2008/04/28/horsemen-yet-approve-adw-churchill-racing-%E2%80%93-derby-and-oaks-approved-%28updated-4/28%29

I was just wondering if someone in the know had a gut feeling if they would get this resolved or not.

[Indulto]

... TwinLiars.com
For Lawyers, By Lawyers:lol: :lol: :lol:

[startngate]

The complaint is rather devoid of legal analysis (i.e. points and authorities in support of the complaint). Need to see those before it gets interesting. Also, the first Judge recused himself, likely due to a conflict of interest in some fashion. No Judge had yet been appointed.


Where are you getting your info? Would love to read the complaint myself to get a better feel for what's behind it. Thanks! :)

[NoCal Boy]

http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/

Need to register for it and pay for the services. You can pull up the Churchill suit, see the docket and read/print the filings. The complaint has several exhibits reflecting the letters from various horsemen groups denying the Calder signal, etc. plus the model THG agreement.

[northerndancer]

There does appear to be a lack of current news on this ADW impasse. It is clear from reading the Churchill complaint that the THG not only wants 1/3 of the gross, but are requiring non-exclusivity of signals. It is required in the model THG agreement which is attached to the complaint.

The complaint is rather devoid of legal analysis (i.e. points and authorities in support of the complaint). Need to see those before it gets interesting. Also, the first Judge recused himself, likely due to a conflict of interest in some fashion. No Judge had yet been appointed.

Still believe open access for a fee of 5-5.5% would work for THG and ADW's alike. The THG will not get 1/3 of the gross, but can still get open access with a higher fee in return.

Meanwhile, we all simply wait around.

NoCal Boy it is with great pleasure to read your posts as you seem to be a preson that really understands an extremely fragmented industry. I have been reading with amazement industry rags as well as the posts on PA and you are the first one to mention the fact that the THG will NEVER get the 1/3 economic model that was championed by Chuck Champion. Congrats to you as you seem to understand what is going on.....

I would take it one step further..... the fact is the THG has stuck their neck out demanding that any agreement would be 1/3, 1/3 & 1/3 split of the revenue from any ADW wager. What they failed to realize is that the industy will not accept this economic model. Therefore for this to end the THG has to be allowed to save face and be able to spin it so that they do not appear to be weak or cave to track management and the primary ADW's that are the focus of their crusade (MEC, CD, Twin Spires, Xpressbet & Track Net). The filing of the lawsuit by CDI maybe the impetus (olive branch) necessary to allow the THG to settle without losing face.

IMO the resolution will be tiered pricing for the ADW's based on a players handle with that ADW. The Xpressbet's & Twin Spires would welcome this as it would force players to consider placing their play with only one ADW to garner the best possible reward from the ADW. This would also allow for that dirty word 'rebate' to be dealt with in an open environment. As is the case with our economic system those that buy the most will get the best pricing and I see that happening in this case.

The lack of press is due to the fact the parties involved are starting to realize they better keep quiet about this situation as their end customers (the players) do not have a say in what is going on but are just chatel in the equation.

I do think that this needed to happen and was going to happen as a response to the developement of TNM and what was done with the Derby last year. The horsemen were going to take action against what they viewed as being too much control by a required nemisis in the relationship.

NoCal thank you for your insight.

[NoCal Boy]

Actually I have confirmed the Youbet 1/3 model is not the same 1/3 model of THG. The Youbet model is 1/3 of the net takeout. This makes a big difference. Youbet has a pending deal with 4 Illinois tracks based on 1/3 of net takeout, plus the proposed deal with the Florida HNPA for Gulfstream was also based off of net takeout. Of course, Tracknet put a gun to the Florida HBPA's head to keep GP exclusive (in the words of the Fl HBPA). I do not believe any ADW will accept 1/3 of gross takeout for pricing.

I agree the horsemen can save face if they at least get open access and a higher fee, but less than 1/3 of gross takeout. THey will not get 1/3 of gross takeout (IMO) so the yhave to get something like open access to say tey succeeded. They will then settle for less than 1/3 gross takeout, but something like 1/3 of net takeout that is acceptable to Youbet and probably other ADW's.

[NoCal Boy]

As for rebaters, I have to believe a 1/3 model is not acceptable to them. While I agree PTC should be licensed in CA, I believe the ADW's in CA only make 2-3% on a wager after paying TVG/HRTV a fee for the wager. Cash rebates are also illegal in CA (I believe).

[asH]

CHDN up 2.6% today +1.28 $50.58

[trigger]

Actually I have confirmed the Youbet 1/3 model is not the same 1/3 model of THG. The Youbet model is 1/3 of the net takeout. This makes a big difference. Youbet has a pending deal with 4 Illinois tracks based on 1/3 of net takeout, plus the proposed deal with the Florida HNPA for Gulfstream was also based off of net takeout. Of course, Tracknet put a gun to the Florida HBPA's head to keep GP exclusive (in the words of the Fl HBPA). I do not believe any ADW will accept 1/3 of gross takeout for pricing.

I agree the horsemen can save face if they at least get open access and a higher fee, but less than 1/3 of gross takeout. THey will not get 1/3 of gross takeout (IMO) so the yhave to get something like open access to say tey succeeded. They will then settle for less than 1/3 gross takeout, but something like 1/3 of net takeout that is acceptable to Youbet and probably other ADW's.

What makes up the difference between gross takeout and net takeout?

[startngate]

http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/

Need to register for it and pay for the services. You can pull up the Churchill suit, see the docket and read/print the filings. The complaint has several exhibits reflecting the letters from various horsemen groups denying the Calder signal, etc. plus the model THG agreement.

Thanks!

[Murph]

Actually I have confirmed the Youbet 1/3 model is not the same 1/3 model of THG. The Youbet model is 1/3 of the net takeout. This makes a big difference. Youbet has a pending deal with 4 Illinois tracks based on 1/3 of net takeout, plus the proposed deal with the Florida HNPA for Gulfstream was also based off of net takeout. Of course, Tracknet put a gun to the Florida HBPA's head to keep GP exclusive (in the words of the Fl HBPA). I do not believe any ADW will accept 1/3 of gross takeout for pricing.

I agree the horsemen can save face if they at least get open access and a higher fee, but less than 1/3 of gross takeout. THey will not get 1/3 of gross takeout (IMO) so the yhave to get something like open access to say tey succeeded. They will then settle for less than 1/3 gross takeout, but something like 1/3 of net takeout that is acceptable to Youbet and probably other ADW's.Possibly you underestimate how far horsemen are willing to go before bowing down to track operators CDI and MAGNA once again. I get the feeling that there is a core group of horsemen taking action to prevent this from happening all over again. They seem willing to starve before giving up another dime to people who REFUSE to serve the horsemens' interest in spite of state laws and current revenue sharing agreements. I hope the horsemen can put the hurt to MAGNA and CDI so they can then sell the damn signal (which they own a porper share of) to anyone who wants to buy it.

Anything less from the track operators is NOT ACEPTABLE for contiuing to do business with those vultures. Track operators need to step forward with positive change inside their own houses before expecting horsmen to sacrifice anymore of their revenue to the operators who refuse to properly serve the horsemen and horse players. Nothing less will do to satisfy me and many others it seems.

Murph

[Kelso]

I get the feeling that there is a core group of horsemen taking action to prevent this from happening all over again. They seem willing to starve before giving upI suspect a lot of average owners are rapidly discovering that they've been sold a bill of goods by a tiny group of very wealthy and inordinately influential owners who have little likelihood, and no intention whatsoever, of "starving" themselves. I think we'll see a number of easily understandable, and very public, defections in the near future by owners of small stables who have tired of huge purse reductions.


I hope the horsemen can put the hurt to MAGNA and CDI so they can then sell the damn signal (which they own a porper share of) to anyone who wants to buy it.Signals are 100% owned by the tracks. That's because the tracks have 100% ownership of the races that are run at the facilities that are 100% owned by the tracks.

The owners have an unearned and undeserved degree of control over signal distribution ... courtesy of their bought-and-paid-for Congresscreeps ... but they have no ownership stake in the signals beyond any ownership stake they might have in the tracks that own the signals. (And watch for a federal court to tell the owners they no longer have any say over signal distribution ... since they don't own the signals, races or facilities in the first place.)


before expecting horsmen to sacrifice anymore of their revenueThe only revenue that belongs to horsemen is that won by their horses. No track-realted revenues are, by right or law, "their revenue."

[startngate]

I suspect a lot of average owners are rapidly discovering that they've been sold a bill of goods by a tiny group of very wealthy and inordinately influential owners who have little likelihood, and no intention whatsoever, of "starving" themselves. I think we'll see a number of easily understandable, and very public, defections in the near future by owners of small stables who have tired of huge purse reductions.

Signals are 100% owned by the tracks. That's because the tracks have 100% ownership of the races that are run at the facilities that are 100% owned by the tracks.

The owners have an unearned and undeserved degree of control over signal distribution ... courtesy of their bought-and-paid-for Congresscreeps ... but they have no ownership stake in the signals beyond any ownership stake they might have in the tracks that own the signals. (And watch for a federal court to tell the owners they no longer have any say over signal distribution ... since they don't own the signals, races or facilities in the first place.)

The only revenue that belongs to horsemen is that won by their horses. No track-realted revenues are, by right or law, "their revenue."

Sort of ... not by right or law, but the horsemen do have a contract with the host tracks that states specifically how much of the takeout, host fees and source market fees they are supposed to receive into the purse account. This is "their revenue" whether or not it is generated by the tracks.

The real point that the horsemen seem to be missing IMO is a simple business premise. It is in the best interest of a track (and therefore the horsemen) to sell its signal to authorized outlets at the highest price possible.

And "possible" is the key word.

IMO it should be between the tracks and the outlets to determine what the price should be, not the horsemen dictating it. The track and the outlet have the relationship, and the horsemen are at best a third party beneficiary to the transaction. Like them or not, at least TrackNet is trying (and from all reports succeeding) to get a higher host fee from the ADW's, which means the horsemen get more purses.

There are too many business reasons that can dictate the most equitable pricing model, and trying to blanket everyone (whether it be ADW's, off-shores, rebate shops, etc) with the same deal is not practically possible.

For example, not that I am a fan of TVG's, but should they be required to pay the same price as YouBet for a track that they feature on their TV network, when YouBet doesn't have a TV network and therefore has much lower expenses? For that matter, should PTC pay more for signals than RGS or Elite when they are on-shore and supporting racing in ND? I'm not trying to create a specific debate on these examples, just showing that in every instance there are different business reasons which could result in different pricing models. It's not clear from published reports that the THG actually "gets" this.

Horsemen are benefitting from what TrackNet is trying to do, the THG just doen't think it's enough. Obviously they have the right to their beliefs and can try to get a better deal. I don't think they will get what they are asking, but I can't knock them for trying.

What I can knock them for is causing the signals to be shut off during the peak of racing's popularity during the year. The THG was created and announced in late 2007. They could have made their stand long before now, or could have picked a meet at the end of 2008 and started negotiations now so there was plenty of time to get it resolved.

I'm :lol: when they claim they are not trying to hold the Derby hostage. It's exacly what they are doing.

As I said in a previous post, if they were smart at the very least they should let the Oaks, Derby, Preakness and Belmont Days be sold to everyone at last year's rates, while negotiations continue.

Better still, approve all signals at a minimum of last year's rates, and pick a cutoff date (or meet) at least six months from now. Spend that six months with people that know the business of racing, some ADW's, and the customers who generate the revenue, to get an understanding of how it really works and only then, try to get a deal done which is equitable to each ADW or Outlet they think needs to be adjusted.

[NoCal Boy]

>>>As I said in a previous post, if they were smart at the very least they should let the Oaks, Derby, Preakness and Belmont Days be sold to everyone at last year's rates, while negotiations continue. <<<

This would be a wonderful PR move against the THG since Churchill controls these signals, but Churchill/Tracknet simply do not want TVG/Youbet in their pools at this time.

[northerndancer]

This would be a wonderful PR move against the THG since Churchill controls these signals, but Churchill/Tracknet simply do not want TVG/Youbet in their pools at this time.

Kudos to you NoCal Boy as you point out another aspect of this mess. This civil war has erupted due to the deep seated disdain that the ADW's have for each other.

The horsemen get their beer muscles to flex against the ADW's and we have chaos. IMO Churchill and MEC by forming TNM have chosen to negotiate with themselves when it comes to their own ADW's and that has been the impetus to all this warfare. The horsemen say hey wait a minute how can you determine what price the ADW will pay when you own the ADW?

The other aspect is that the horsemen have never appreciated the TV Fee charged by TNM last year to the ADW's (Xpressbet and Twinspires did not pay the TV Fee). This was money paid to TNM for access to signals and the ability to produce HRTV.

I would think that THG as well as TOC were not going to allow this type of charge without a split of this revenue stream.

[dutchboy]

May be like the stake race at CD last saturday. BetPad and maybe YouBet listed CD as a betting track but you could only bet that one race. I believe the same will apply this coming friday and saturday. You may be only able to bet the Oaks race on friday and only the Derby on saturday.



Anybody have a sense on if this will be resolved by Saturday or not?

I also see CD is listed as a track on the NYRA.com wagering menu? How can that be?

[startngate]

>>>As I said in a previous post, if they were smart at the very least they should let the Oaks, Derby, Preakness and Belmont Days be sold to everyone at last year's rates, while negotiations continue. <<<

This would be a wonderful PR move against the THG since Churchill controls these signals, but Churchill/Tracknet simply do not want TVG/Youbet in their pools at this time.

Actually, I was saying that the THG should make this offer. The offer to TrackNet should be to allow them to sell the days at last year's rates (or higher) would be conditioned upon letting every ADW into the pools (hence the word "everyone"). This way the THG gets something in return for setting aside their demands for these days.

And I have to disagree with TrackNet not wanting TVG/YouBet in the pools. In the short term, having the Derby and Preakness for TwinSpires and XpressBet is more important than allowing others in as well. Long term, I think they would allow them into their pools as long as TVG grants them access to their exclusive tracks in return. They've been saying that publicly since day one, and I find it hard to believe they would back out if TVG came forward with a content swapping deal.

I do believe the TV fees are an issue with the horsemen. The TVG exclusive fees (it's been reported that YouBet pays 5.5%) are too. Putting races on TV does cost money, and both networks need to be supported financially by the industry to keep them going. At least until ad revenues and distribution gets them to a break-even or profit. I'm not sure the horsemen deserve a piece of these fees, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who said they were too high.

One might argue the tracks should be footing the TV bill instead of the ADWs, since there is likely higher handle on those races that are shown (at least TVG claims there is, not sure about HRTV) which leads to more revenue for the tracks. Of course making the tracks pay isn't likely, and that would also reduce the horsemen's share, so it's probably not going to happen.

[crownx]

this entire mess is only hurting players and showing the true colors of all involved in racing. As the pie gets smaller everyone is trying to grab every last crumb for themselves. I pray that the anti trust lawsuit gets the horseman assoc. out of the cookie jar. It is a shame that the horseman groups were so willing to sell the tracks to other operators, but now still want everything run for the benefit of themselves. Well, as an owner I wish the groups still ran the tracks, but they were worse operators, than MEC or Churchill corp could ever imagine, now with even an ounce of profit left, the horseman want to extract there lbs of flesh.



Churchill entire profit is made of of oak/derby weekend.. good time to short, prob a better bet than Derby...

[Ron]

So nobody has a sense as to whether this will be resolved or not. I guess I have to figure out how to get money into my nyra rewards account by Saturday morning.

[Indulto]

Actually, I was saying that the THG should make this offer. The offer to TrackNet should be to allow them to sell the days at last year's rates (or higher) would be conditioned upon letting every ADW into the pools (hence the word "everyone"). This way the THG gets something in return for setting aside their demands for these days.

And I have to disagree with TrackNet not wanting TVG/YouBet in the pools. In the short term, having the Derby and Preakness for TwinSpires and XpressBet is more important than allowing others in as well. Long term, I think they would allow them into their pools as long as TVG grants them access to their exclusive tracks in return. They've been saying that publicly since day one, and I find it hard to believe they would back out if TVG came forward with a content swapping deal.

I do believe the TV fees are an issue with the horsemen. The TVG exclusive fees (it's been reported that YouBet pays 5.5%) are too. Putting races on TV does cost money, and both networks need to be supported financially by the industry to keep them going. At least until ad revenues and distribution gets them to a break-even or profit. I'm not sure the horsemen deserve a piece of these fees, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who said they were too high.

One might argue the tracks should be footing the TV bill instead of the ADWs, since there is likely higher handle on those races that are shown (at least TVG claims there is, not sure about HRTV) which leads to more revenue for the tracks. Of course making the tracks pay isn't likely, and that would also reduce the horsemen's share, so it's probably not going to happen.Why should the horsemen and the players fund TWO competing video operations, and why should the players be stuck paying for pre/post-race commentary/hype they may not want or use.

Perhaps tracks should replace Equibase with Trakus who could provide video for their websites as well. That video could be sold to any number of profitable broadcast content providers supported through cable subscription.

As I most frequently play exotics through earlybird, all I NEED is PTC's conditional wagering facility and replays. I would also subscribe to a cable channel that provided live coverage I could stomach even if track website video were available.

In my perfect world, DRF would combine with Trakus to broadcast live coverage and on-air commentary.

[startngate]

Why should the horsemen and the players fund TWO competing video operations, and why should the players be stuck paying for pre/post-race commentary/hype they may not want or use.

Actually, I pointed out that I thought the tracks should be funding it.

One might argue the tracks should be footing the TV bill instead of the ADWs, since there is likely higher handle on those races that are shown (at least TVG claims there is, not sure about HRTV) which leads to more revenue for the tracks.

Regardless, there is a big advantage to the industry if racing is on televsion. Whether or not someone likes the broadcast "fluff" that the network includes with the races, having easier access to viewing them is a good thing. Maybe as technology improves and the video pictures on a PC get better it won't be as big a deal, but right now, TV is still the best way to watch a race.

So nobody has a sense as to whether this will be resolved or not.

IMO, it will not get completely resolved before Derby Day. Best hope is a deal gets done to cover the complete Oaks and Derby Day cards, but if that happens it will probably be a last minute deal (Thursday late afternoon). Even if it gets settled late, it's too close to the events now to have much of an impact for the ADW's, as most people have already made other arrangements.

[ceejay]

Even if it gets settled late, it's too close to the events now to have much of an impact for the ADW's, as most people have already made other arrangements.like playing tampa bay downs.

[Spendabuck85]

Kentucky Horsemen Negotiations Stalled (Updated 4/30) (http://www.twinspires.com/content/news/2008/04/30/kentucky-horsemen-negotiations-stalled-%28updated-4/30%29)

Wednesday, April 30 • 5:02 pm • Tags: Twinspires (http://www.twinspires.com/content/news/topics/Twinspires)
Although discussions continue between Churchill Downs, Inc. officials and the Kentucky Horsemen, there has been no agreement as of 5PM EST Wednesday. April 30. For this reason, we must regretfully advise our players to make other (non-ADW) arrangements for placing bets on the undercard races at Churchill Downs this Friday, May 2nd and this Saturday, May 3rd.

[Oddzilla]

So right now I would have to play other Churchill races through a racebook, and the ADWs and horsemen alike would get no part of my money at all. And yet another day goes by without the ADWs and horsemen making any progress. Nobody benefits, everybody suffers. Asanine.

[Tom]

A pox on the CD horsemen - may they all lose their friggin arses over this.
I thinkt the ADWs should stop negotiating and tell CD to go to hell. Let them live without the handle forever. That would give CD an excuse to cut purses - slash purses.:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

Will this be a preview weekend of the Belmont too?

[magwell]

A pox on the CD horsemen - may they all lose their friggin arses over this.
I thinkt the ADWs should stop negotiating and tell CD to go to hell. Let them live without the handle forever. That would give CD an excuse to cut purses - slash purses.:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

Will this be a preview weekend of the Belmont too? Tom.... calder cut purses 30% starting this friday

[ceejay]

That would give CD an excuse to cut purses - slash purses.:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

And why not raise takeouts while they're at it? They must feed the beast. Who better to take it out on than the customers? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tom]

Tom.... calder cut purses 30% starting this friday

GOOD! :jump:

[startngate]

A pox on the CD horsemen - may they all lose their friggin arses over this.
I thinkt the ADWs should stop negotiating and tell CD to go to hell. Let them live without the handle forever. That would give CD an excuse to cut purses - slash purses.:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

Will this be a preview weekend of the Belmont too?

Fortunately no, there is something unique in New York that doesn't require NYRA to get approvals from the horsemen when sending signals out.