Unprecidented anti-war demonstrations

[Amazin]

For those who are oblivious to this,here's a link.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=518&e=1&u=/ap/20030216/ap_on_re_eu/world_war_protests

Says 1/2 million in NYC.3/4 Million in London(an all time record for them)And on and on.And you thought it was only me and Lindsay who opposed the war.By the way,another poll says 1/3 of the British feel Bush is more of a threat to world peace than Saddam and it's growing.Why die for Bush lies.

[Tom]

This is a free country...
everyone can be as wrong as they want to be.
Wonder how many of them actually watched the UN session Friday?

Quote fro the article:
— and the rest of the world is saying, 'Give the inspectors time.'"

That is the big lie here. What they mean is give Sodamn time.
Uhuh..don't think so.

[Lefty]

It's amazin, Amazin that all the liberals that oppose the impending war were foresquare behind it when Clinton talked about it.
BTW, what Bush lies?

[Lindsay]

http://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm

[sq764]

I forget where it was, but during a peace demonstration (anti-war), they started throwing bottles at the police and it started a riot..

Nice.

[PaceAdvantage]

Crowd size depends on who you believe....nowhere near 1/2 million in NY

From CNN regarding NY:

Organizers estimated the crowd at more than 375,000, but Police Commissioner Ray Kelly estimated turnout at 100,000.



There is an even bigger discrepancy regarding merry ol' England....

Again from CNN:

Police in London, England, said turnout Saturday was 750,000, the largest demonstration ever in the British capital. The organizers put the figure at 2 million.


==PA

[Lefty]

I found a lot of liberal lies but still don't know what Bush lied about. During the last election campaign it was Gore that told the lie about the social security lock box. Everyone should know that all the money's in the general fund and there is no lock box.
Let 10 people show up for a rally and the liberals will swear it was a 1000.
And the biggest liberal lie of all is that the majority of Americans oppose Bush about the war. Nope, not true.
Saadams the bad guy and it's a damned pity that anyone in the free world would believe otherwise.
Let us do nothing and if Saadam strikes us it will be these same people condemning Geo. W. for not doing something.

[Lindsay]

Lefty wrote: "I found a lot of liberal lies but still don't know what Bush lied about."

So we have a metaphysical question. If a lie is not recognized by Lefty, does it still exist? The first President Bush once claimed that he had never used the term "voodoo economics" to describe Reagan's economic plan. His reasoning? His aids could not find the tape of him saying it. Ergo, he had never said it. Hence, we had the prototypical postmodern lie: No tape = no event.

[Lindsay]

Amazin wrote: "For those who are oblivious to this,here's a link.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...ld_war_protests

Says 1/2 million in NYC.3/4 Million in London(an all time record for them)And on and on.And you thought it was only me and Lindsay who opposed the war.By the way,another poll says 1/3 of the British feel Bush is more of a threat to world peace than Saddam and it's growing.Why die for Bush lies."

Amazin,

This is great!!! Please keep these wonderful posts coming. This is beginning to remind me of that Denzell Washington movie where the hospital refuses to treat his son because he can't afford to pay. He then forcibly takes over the hospital.

Well, the off-topic section is under new management now. (I don't mean that literally, PA.)

[Lindsay]

Lefty wrote: "It's amazin, Amazin that all the liberals that oppose the impending war were foresquare behind it when Clinton talked about it."

Lefty,

Please document this statement. Thank you.

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Crowd size depends on who you believe....nowhere near 1/2 million in NY

From CNN regarding NY:

Organizers estimated the crowd at more than 375,000, but Police Commissioner Ray Kelly estimated turnout at 100,000.



There is an even bigger discrepancy regarding merry ol' England....

Again from CNN:

Police in London, England, said turnout Saturday was 750,000, the largest demonstration ever in the British capital. The organizers put the figure at 2 million.


==PA

When the organizers count, they count both faces on everyone, so that doubles the crowd <G>

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lindsay
Amazin wrote: "For those who are oblivious to this,here's a link.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...ld_war_protests

Well, the off-topic section is under new management now. (I don't mean that literally, PA.)

Not that everyone was that thrilled with the "old" management.
(again, not PA) All conservatives don't respond with boxcars of links. Heh Heh

[Lefty]

Tell you what, you liberals can keep your heads in the sand until the world kicks you in the butt.
Lindsay, it was well known about all the Dashiels and his ilk they were solidly behind Clinton when he proposed getting Sadaam. If you had been paying attention at the time you'd know and I blve you do know, but don't want to aknowledge. I'm not going back and forth over the same old ground like we did in last thread.
You blve whay you want or have to and the nice thing is, I don't have to prove a thing to you.
I don't care if Bush the elder said he didn't say voodoo economics or not. Really not near as important as Clinton committing perjury and refusing a woman her day in court. Not nearly as important as a President pointing a finger in the publics face and with outrage in his voice saying, "I did not have sex with that woman
Monica Lewinsky."
Not nearly as important as Clinton telling a group of wealthy Texans that he agreed with them that he raised their taxes too much and when his Demo Congress expressed outrage that he said it, he came on TV the very next night and said, "My mother told me never to give a speech past 7 O'clock when i'm tired."
And you people say Geo the Elder lied about something so trivial?
And that between Sadaam and Geo. W. you prefer to believe Sadaam?
Oh, My God.

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by Amazin
Says 1/2 million in NYC.3/4 Million in London(an all time record for them)And on and on.And you thought it was only me and Lindsay who opposed the war.By the way,another poll says 1/3 of the British feel Bush is more of a threat to world peace than Saddam and it's growing.Why die for Bush lies.

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it."

Jack Nicholson - A Few Good Men, 1992

Life imitating art, eh?

[Lindsay]

Lefty wrote:

"I'm not going back and forth over the same old ground like we did in last thread."

Please reconsider, Lefty. You have given me great pleasure while I've been fighting a bad cold.

"you liberals can keep your heads in the sand until the world kicks you in the butt."

It's unfortunate that you employ this sort of language. I will not respond in kind.

"it was well known about all the Dashiels"

That would be Daschle. This sort of mistake is common to people who get all their news from radio and TV. Seeing his name in print will solve the problem.

"and his ilk they were solidly behind Clinton when he proposed getting Sadaam."

Please tell me when Clinton put a huge army in the desert to invade Iraq, as Bush is doing. If he did, I missed it. So, in fact, did everyone but you. But let's say it happened. OK. That means Clinton supported getting rid of Saddam Hussein, and so did the Democrats. Therefore, it's the Republicans fault that he is still in power.

"I don't care if Bush the elder said he didn't say voodoo economics or not."

Yeah, everyone lies about the economy. Lying about oral sex is what really matters.

"Clinton committing perjury and refusing a woman her day in court."

When did Clinton get the power to refuse a woman her day in court?

"Not nearly as important as Clinton telling a group of wealthy Texans that he agreed with them that he raised their taxes too much and when his Demo Congress expressed outrage"

Wrong. That was 1995. It was a Republican Congress. He said something on a Monday, and retracted it on a Tuesday. This is the kind of thing that excites you? More than Reagan arming terrorists?

"And you people say Geo the Elder lied about something so trivial?"

George the First lied about Iran/Contra, too. This is selling arms to terrorists. Trivial? Well, it's not oral sex.

"And that between Sadaam and Geo. W. you prefer to believe Sadaam?"

I detest Saddam Hussein and do not believe a word he says. In fact, I detest him so much that I think Reagan should have been impeached for helping Saddam AFTER Saddam used chemical weapons on the Iranians and Kurds. Reagan should also have been impeached for arming terrorists and for his murderous wars in Central America.

[Lindsay]

Maryland Paul wrote: "Life imitating art, eh?"

No. Actually, it's MarylandPaul misunderstanding a quote. By the way, do you know who wrote and directed that movie?

[Amazin]

Fact: Politicians lie.You've allready stated that about some president's and I agree with you.During the Vietnam war,there I was ,a teenage Amazin saying 'Why die for Nixon Lies".Over 50,000 American soldiers,and countless Vietnamese and Cambodians died.For What?.For the lie that communist were a threat to our security.Today we know it was a lie.Got the same flack for my position then as now.Back then who had their eyes open?Liberals or brown nosing conservatives.Fast foward to today.Bush says Saddam is a threat to our security.Again we have brown nosing conservatives who can't tell a lie if it hit them squarley in the face.They're too busy brown nosing.They can't think for themselves.It's blind patriotism.30 years from now,it'll be old Amazin saying we now know Bush's excuse for going into Iraq was a lie.Got the same flack because I knew it was a lie.Point is we both know Politicians lie.But for some reason you think this administration is exempt from lying .Why don't you smell the truth for a change.That brown nosing stinks.

[Lefty]

Amazin, why die for Nixon lies. Don't you know that Nixon ended the war that became futile under the Democrats?

[Lefty]

Lindsay, when did Clinton have the power to deny a woman her day in court?
Let me tell you: He LIED to the JUDGE, the JUDGE BELIEVED him. That is called Perjury!

[Rpd]

Amazing,

I have stayed out of this up until now but when I read "why die for Nixon's lies".....there are enough on the board that are older that will assure you it was Johnson's war..........How you can bring Vietnam into this and only mention Nixon is beyond me.

Tactfully,
Rpd

[Lindsay]

RPD wrote: "I have stayed out of this up until now but when I read "why die for Nixon's lies".....there are enough on the board that are older that will assure you it was Johnson's war..........How you can bring Vietnam into this and only mention Nixon is beyond me."

It was Kennedy's war, Johnson's war, Nixon's war. It was the Republicans' war and the Democrats' war. It was also Congress's war. Both parties. Johnson lied during the war, as did Nixon--both of them repeatedly. Nixon widened the war into Cambodia, paving the way for the Cambodian Killing Fields. And he lied about it. If Nixon had stopped the war in 1969, the Vietnam Wall would be only half the length it is now. The war was a Republican and a Democratic disgrace.

[Rpd]

Lindsay,

Agreed, but you go back and reread Amazing's post, ONLY Nixon was mentioned and that was my point.

Rpd

[Lindsay]

Lefty wrote: "Let me tell you: He LIED to the JUDGE, the JUDGE BELIEVED him. That is called Perjury!"

Lefty,

Please answer my questions. Thank you.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lindsay

.... If Nixon had stopped the war in 1969, the Vietnam Wall would be only half the length it is now. The war was a Republican and a Democratic disgrace. [/B]

That is bipartisinship at work.

[Lindsay]

Rpd wrote: "Agreed, but you go back and reread Amazing's post, ONLY Nixon was mentioned and that was my point."

I understand, Rpd. I believe Amazin was giving a personal narrative. It looks as though he came of age while Nixon was waging the war. Thus, it's understandable that he would focus on Nixon. It is important, I believe, to differentiate between "liberal Democrats," many of whom supported the war for several years, and the more progressive left, the majority of whom hated the war from day one. Their efforts to stop it are something they are justifiably damn proud of. We should never forget the devastation inflicted on Southeast Asia. Near the end of the war, there were villages in which people who still had all their limbs looked abnormal.

[cj]

Why are you speaking up for Amazin? Let him defend himself.

CJ

[Lefty]

Lindsay, I have no time to look up documentation. It's common fact. No Clinton didn't amass troops to invade Iraq, he didn't have the guts. And prob. too busy chasing skirts.
It does no good to answer your questions; you don't like the answers. And I have to answer 10, 15 times before you finally get it.
Too bad.

[Lindsay]

Lefty wrote:

"Lindsay, I have no time to look up documentation."

Yeah, documentation is overrated. Naked assertions are where it's at.

"No Clinton didn't amass troops to invade Iraq,"

Thanks for admitting that your comparison falls apart at first glance.

"It does no good to answer your questions;"

Agreed. Not the way you've been answering them.

"And I have to answer 10, 15 times before you finally get it."

Reread our FIRST encounter (other string), Lefty. You ended up backing off, changing your stories, and changing your sentences. Don't think I don't notice these things, and don't think I don't get a kick out of watching it.

CJ wrote: "Why are you speaking up for Amazin? Let him defend himself."

Rpd asked me to reread Amazin's reply. I took that as an invitation to comment on it. Keep trying, CJ. Eventually, you will get me on something. Eventually...

[cj]

Amazing,

I have stayed out of this up until now but when I read "why die for Nixon's lies".....there are enough on the board that are older that will assure you it was Johnson's war..........How you can bring Vietnam into this and only mention Nixon is beyond me.

Tactfully,
Rpd



Rpd clearly addressed amazin

It was Kennedy's war, Johnson's war, Nixon's war. It was the Republicans' war and the Democrats' war. It was also Congress's war. Both parties. Johnson lied during the war, as did Nixon--both of them repeatedly. Nixon widened the war into Cambodia, paving the way for the Cambodian Killing Fields. And he lied about it. If Nixon had stopped the war in 1969, the Vietnam Wall would be only half the length it is now. The war was a Republican and a Democratic disgrace.


You answered

Only because answered on his behalf in the first place did Rpd suggest you read his post. Color it any way you want Lindsay, you are trying answer for Amazin.

CJ

[Lindsay]

CJ wrote: "Color it any way you want Lindsay, you are trying answer for Amazin."

Amazin mentioned only Nixon. Rpd called it "Johnson's war." I was disagreeing with both of them, CJ. But keep trying. Eventually, you will get me on something. Eventually...

[cj]

zzzzzzzzzz...you bore me Lindsay, off to sleep, I have idiots like you to defend.

Actually, I'm sure you aren't an idiot. But you do bore me nonetheless.

CJ

[Lindsay]

CJ wrote: "zzzzzzzzzz...you bore me Lindsay, off to sleep, I have idiots like you to defend."

Take care, CJ. Best wishes to you.

[PaceAdvantage]

I smell something cookin....not sure what it is yet, but I'm probably not going to like the taste of it when it's finished....

==PA


PS. Games like these would be much more entertaining if those involved weren't so damned transparent....


PPS. Clinton can be accused of a lot more than lying about sex.....


PPPS. Republicans aren't the only politicians who lie, cheat, steal, cover-up, and assasinate if necessary you know......

[BillW]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
I smell something cookin....not sure what it is yet, but I'm probably not going to like the taste of it when it's finished....

==PA


PS. Games like these would be much more entertaining if those involved weren't so damned transparent....


PPS. Clinton can be accused of a lot more than lying about sex.....


PPPS. Republicans aren't the only politicians who lie, cheat, steal, cover-up, and assasinate if necessary you know......

Nor are they the only ones to go to war ...

WW1 - Wilson
WW2 - FDR
Korea - Truman
First American killed in Vietnam before FDR died in '45

Full moon tonite ... it's down hill from here! :)

[Rpd]

In addition,

You cannot fault Kennedy or accuse him of what Vietnam did to our country. EVERY President has meddled in the affairs of other countries. Sending advisors and special forces did NOT make Vietnam into what it turned out to be.

Nixon? Yes of course, not in the top of a list of good presidents. But he did NOT start the "war". He was a part of what ended it and accepting defeat took courage. As to other matters in relation to what he did regarding the war - some terrible, some not but at least it was an attempt to end it.

Johnson? well, who did escalate the war? Who was president when we built up our troop level to that level? Love the slogan "will not die for Nixon's lies"? Guess you forgot, "Hey Hey LBJ how many did you kill today" And before you correct me on details, yes it is paraprased. And who was president when our troops were NOT give the support and the means to win the war. You do not send young men to die without doing what ever it takes to win. Johnson was not totally at fault, he was just too weak in this area. His strength was domestic affairs.

My father lost his life in Vietnam and it occured when Johnson was President. By no means do I wish to demean the involvment of the others, but I am tired of listening to the narrow minded views of some on this board.

ALL Presidents do the same, no matter their party. If anyone thinks that the public is told the truth at any time in our history then you are sadly fooled. The government is run by career entities and new administrations, senators, and congressmen/women soon find out that instant results do not happen. Perfect example is my glorious senator from Pennsylvania with his "single bullet theory".

Arguing about who did what when is nuts. Did Saddam purposely kill his own people? Is he capable of doing it again?
Does he pose a threat to our country? If Americans believe that is so, then support taking him out. If you don't believe that of him then it is your duty to protest against it.

Hope all that was clear and does not need knitpicking.

Rpd

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by Lindsay
Maryland Paul wrote: "Life imitating art, eh?"

No. Actually, it's MarylandPaul misunderstanding a quote. By the way, do you know who wrote and directed that movie?

Written by Aaron Sorkin, directed by Rob Reiner, but I admit to looking up Sorkin.

No misunderstanding here. I picked a quote and applied it to a context to make a point. I can do that, it's my keyboard. And, I like the quote <g>.

Sometimes, you can't run foreign policy based on public opinion polls, least of all on a big block party. Until the Intelligence officials publish everything they know on the front page of the NY Times, we're all forming opinions without all the facts. You also can't run foreign policy based on world opinion, when it's a given that each member of the U.N. has their own agenda.

I don't agree with a lot of what Lefty says (although picking his arguements apart seems to be your favorite sport), and I'm certainly not George Dubya's biggest fan. I do, however, have a certain amount of faith in the judgement of some of his cabinet (Powell and Rice most notably).

I do fear what the effects of this war would be, but I have greater fear of the ramifications of leaving Saddam alone. The fact that he's locked down from any overt action doesn't mean he's not a constant danger through covert means, and a handful of inspectors trotting around looking for a deadly needle in a giant haystack doesn't make me sleep any better. C'mon...interviews with Iraqi scientists? Jesus Christ, what a dog and pony show!

What happens if we wait..and wait...and wait? Are you prepared to put the safety of millions of Saddam's enemies in the hands of those inspectors? I'm not. Do you believe Saddam is content to sit on his hands and live out his days under U.N. auspices? I don't.

MP

[Amazin]

Rpd

My condolences about your father. I felt bad reading that which is a big reason I am anti-war.I wish that on nobody.American or Foreign.

Lindsay is right.The Nixon lies thing was a personal narrative.That's why I wrote"Teenage Amazin". I became politically active during the Nixon administration due to my age..I believe all three president's do share the same responsibility about Vietnam.I am not defending any of them.You just misinterpreted the post

LBJ? He was a liar and he proved his own lies.As 60 minutes showed about a year ago,he taperecorded all his private conversations.They showed that in the mid sixties during heavy Vietnam protests,as he denounced the protests as unamerican,he KNEW,that he had no chance to win the war in Vietnam.It's a taperecorded statement.Several of them.His problem was that if he brought the boys home,it would be an embaressment to him,the administration and the country.So he continued to go out in public and order American soldiers to their death knowing it was in vain.What is really interesting here is that the protesters were getting the same message as today:Traitors to the president.If they only knew the president was on the protesters side.LBJ just wasn't man enough to say it.People who call those who care about life and refuse military service, cowards are the narrow minded ones.They can't see that it takes a real man to say No.Yet the cowards like LBJ and others are glorified.Today the situation is not much different.Bush is now stuck in a rock and a hard place.If he fights,he looks bad going against the U.N. and unprecedented world protests.If he backs down,it's an embarrassment.Unfortunately he also has pressure from corporate America to go in.And if I know Bush,I see a little brown on his nose.

[Rpd]

Amazing

I sincerely want to thank you for your words and understanding from the bottom of my heart. I think you have some good insites and please believe me that I did not take it personally with regard to anything you said.

Take care!
Stephen

[Derek2U]

I see theres a new member Jorge Jaramillo ... is that a warning
to tame my street spanish ..hehe .... BONG IDEA .... I'll tell
Lefty what an idiot he is in spanish from now on ... we all know
how guys like him practice the flamenco at all hours. hehe

[Tom]

Watching the news tonight, and I saw a familiar face- a famous anti-war singer from the 60's playing his guitar and singing "Freedom, Freedom, Freedom...."
Got ask...whose freedom is he concerned with? The Iraqi's have no freedom, so it can't be them. And if we do go to war, we will give them freedom, as we did /are doing in Afghanistan.
I mean, I like the guy's music, even have some of his records (vinyl!) and I love the cover he did of With a Little Help From My Friends, but I think he typifies what I remember about most of the anti-war protestors I lived through the 60's-70's with - they were there "for" the protest, not there "to" protest. It was a party, they showed up, had fun, smoked some dope, made themselves feel all warm and cuddly inside and then went home-they had done thier part.
I doubt if 1,00 people out there in NYC over the weekend actually knew any facts about the issues.
Those people in Berlin marching thorugh the streets really had me worried- the last time that many Germans marched, they didn't stop until Paris!

[Lindsay]

Bill W wrote:

"Nor are they the only ones to go to war ...

WW1 - Wilson
WW2 - FDR
Korea - Truman
First American killed in Vietnam before FDR died in '45"

Bill,

Who said anything to the contrary?

[Lindsay]

MarylandPaul wrote:

"Written by Aaron Sorkin, directed by Rob Reiner, but I admit to looking up Sorkin."

Hey, you did well enough. Sorkin writes the show "West Wing." Also, he wrote the screenplay for "The American President."

"No misunderstanding here. I picked a quote and applied it to a context to make a point. I can do that, it's my keyboard. And, I like the quote"

Sure. But I'd like to point out that "A Few Good Men" was not about a decision to go to war. The speech you quote is about a colonel demanding the right to discipline his men as he sees fit. You took the quote out of context, which is fine. It's an interesting quote.

[Lindsay]

Rpd wrote:

"You cannot fault Kennedy or accuse him of what Vietnam did to our country. EVERY President has meddled in the affairs of other countries. Sending advisors and special forces did NOT make Vietnam into what it turned out to be."

Historians have been debating Kennedy's role in Vietnam for 40 years, but there is no debate about this: He got the US in deeper. Please read about the death of President Diem.

"Nixon? Yes of course, not in the top of a list of good presidents. But he did NOT start the "war"."

I can't recall anyone saying that he did.

"My father lost his life in Vietnam"

I am very sorry to hear that.

[Lindsay]

Tom wrote: "I doubt if 1,00 people out there in NYC over the weekend actually knew any facts about the issues."

1,00? That number looks incomplete to me, Tom. In truth, 287,492 people knew the issues, and 121,905 didn't.

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by Lindsay

Hey, you did well enough. Sorkin writes the show "West Wing." Also, he wrote the screenplay for "The American President."


And, according to IMDB:
"A judge sentenced Sorkin to a drug-diversion program as a result of his drug arrest at a California airport for carrying marijuana, rock cocaine, and hallucenogenic mushrooms." [19 June 2001]

Sounds like the perfect guy to be writing political dramas <g>

MP

[Lefty]

These are not Ant-War demonstrations. These are Anti-Bush demonstrations. Nowhere was a sign condemning Sadaam. No signs saying Sadaam Comply or Sadaam give up your weapons.
There were no Anti-War demonstrations when Clinton sent troops to Bosnia and Kosovo.
There were no protests when Clinton had 450 Cruise Missiles launched into Baghdad.
The liberals and Hollywood Left loved Clinton so did not foment these easily led people into demonstrations

[Derek2U]

Guys ... from my previous posts I said NO WAR NOT NOW.
I really don't think we are prepared for a WAR itself or for
its aftermath. Get rid of him, YES; send our troops to do that,
NO. We really should enlist more support first. And, I truly
think this administration is out-of-sync with this world. It's
pre-1990 thinking in many ways: the Environment, the Economy,
Race, Religion, Personal Freedoms ---- what more. He was
the people's choice (if you can ever overlook the FL chads &
the Supremes) ... but I hope he NEVER gets re-elected to any
post again. PS: If HE should bring us into WAR I would support
our guys --- and Him too --- 100%--- with NO CRITICISM period,
until we finished the job. But I keep reading about how bad
SH is & how the Iraquis suffer, but thats NOT enough to make
me think Invasion. Finally, I see that LEFTY continues with that
child's view of everything as Liberal vs Conservative. It's his
brains' only path, but thats an invention of Conservatives who
think we need their old nanny thinking.

[cj]

Originally posted by Derek2U
...
I really don't think we are prepared for a WAR itself or for
its aftermath...

I don't know about the aftermath, but we are ready for war always, that's our job in the military.

CJ

[Derek2U]

So YOU think so, hey? I hope your right CJ, I really do.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Derek2U
So YOU think so, hey? I hope your right CJ, I really do.

What the hell does that mean? :confused:

Derek, you ever been in the service? Being prepared for war is your job. You practice it daily, depending on your branch of Service and your position. Right down to the admin troops filling out forms in the personnel department. There are some units that are better than others, it's like anything else. CJ is right. It's their job. I am glad there are guys like CJ out there who are willing to stay the long haul and stay prepared for war so we can sit around in the evening and play on the PA board without fear of somebody like Sad-dam Hussein. I am sure he appreciates all the incredible support you communicate in your post above. I am sure it won't stop him from doing his job. He still protects your right to say whatever you want. It's his job............. and just like preparing for war, he does it no matter the climate. Peace Time, War Time, all the time. Duty, Honor, Country. To some of us those words still mean something. You should be thanking him for his service. I know I do........... :cool:

[cj]

Originally posted by Derek2U
So YOU think so, hey? I hope your right CJ, I really do.

If you don't think so D2U, I'm sure you can make it to Canada, but you better go soon.

Ralph,

Thanks, I know we are ready. I am in a Combat Comm unit in Air Combat Command, and all we do is practice when we aren't in the Gulf region. I'll be glad when my 20 years are up, but I wouldn't trade it for anything.

CJ

[Doug]

DEREK,

PS: If HE should bring us into WAR I would support
our guys --- and Him too --- 100%--- with NO CRITICISM period,


Why not support our guys and him NOW?


Who or what do you support NOW?

What is this deal with Lefty? In your posts you call him an idiot, say he has 1/2 a brain and that he has a childs like view of things.
What makes you think you are superior to anyone else. You are not. IMO you are just a little puke that whines and cries when he doesn't get his/her way. Would you do that in a bar when you were face to face with a person, or do you just do it when you can hide behind your computer?

You seem to think you have a better way to run this country. You don't. You don't, You don't. You guys try to insinuate there is some gigantic conspericy theory by the Bush administration. Sure there are deals made, but that is why the USA is a great country. Do you actually think that Bush is out to f**k the citizens of the US? By golly, the guy is trying to do something to make the country even a better place and some of you seem to think that he is out to "getcha".

Why don't you just post your posts, without insults to others.

Doug

[Derek2U]

What a great post ... lets have more of them. No I don't think
Bush is out to get US; I think he's just wrong & misguided in
almost every thing important he decides. I'm not even sure he
understands how lame his ideas are. Regarding Lefty, he's a
mono-brain ---- Everything is Liberal vs Conservative---- and He
has probly made hundreds of posts with the L vs C words. I
just don't agree with that view of the world. RE: bars ... I go
to bars to drink dance flirt not to discuss politics. And finally,
I'm tired of these old guys running (and ruining) this country.
We need fresh thinking and at least more younger guys & women
than we have now. And I don't cry or whine hardly Ever.

[Derek2U]

Maybe I wasnt clear enough CJ. I've got a ton of admiration
for our vets & army guys; it's the bosses I disagree with. Yeah,
its Rummy-Franks-Bush etc etc etc --- and this administration
has a lotta ETCs. Of course, whats a soldier to do but obey his
commanders. Its NOT the personnel I blame but (a) our leaders,
with their easy ways and (b) our electorate that put these
bumble brains in office. Even on this last point I just feel many
were duped by Bush: No Where, in his political campaign, did
he ever reveal what he would really do if elected. Yeah I think
he stinks & HE is responsible for any lives lost in any war--- should there be one. So don't blame dissenters to war; blame
tjhe BossMan.

[cj]

Originally posted by Derek2U
...And finally,
I'm tired of these old guys running (and ruining) this country...


You want to see who is ruining this country, take a look around your supposed work place, Wall Street. It's those idiots who are ruining things around here.

As for Bush's campaign, I doubt he or anyone else could have foreseen the events of 9-11-2001, so how could he let us in on his plans?

CJ

[Derek2U]

You wont get an arguement from me about that CJ. Yes, UNtold
GREEED & CHEATING that hurt this country. I don't even like
saying "that not every1 did shit like that" because the harm & lies
done was enormous to just regular trusting Americans. I have
such mixed feelings about W St now that I didnt ever think possible on top of the 9/11 horror. I have no answer to that.

[Doug]

DEREK2U,

You wont get an arguement from me about that CJ. Yes, UNtold
GREEED & CHEATING that hurt this country. I don't even like
saying "that not every1 did shit like that" because the harm & lies
done was enormous to just regular trusting Americans. I have
such mixed feelings about W St now that I didnt ever think possible on top of the 9/11 horror. I have no answer to that.

Maybe you could switch jobs and become a "Human Shield" in Iraq.

Doug

[Lefty]

Derek, I put most things in the L&C context because if you would open your eyes a little you would see and understand that is what's happening.
The Clintons are liberals, not my fault they are. A lot of the demos in congress are liberals, like Daschle and Gebhardt. Not my fault they are.
They stood behind Clinton when he lied to the whole country about sex in the Oval office. They stood behind him when he gave N. Korea the nuclear technoligies they are threatening us with now. They stood behind Clinton when he bombed an aspirin factory. They stood behind Clinton when he raised Social Security taxes. They stood behind Clinton when he launched Cruise missiles into Baghdad.
Don't "shoot" the messenger.

[PaceAdvantage]

Lefty,

To be fair, Clinton wasn't the only administration to arm and aid former allies who later become mortal enemies.


==PA (not a Clinton supporter by any means)

[PaceAdvantage]

Honestly, do you guys think that we really need to start a full blown war in order to remove Saddam from power??

If THE goal is to get this one man out of that country, I have to believe in my heart of hearts that there is a much better, much neater, and much quieter way to remove him. ("Accidents", "Suicides", "Sudden mysterious illness", and Out and out assassination come to mind).

Of course, that chance was lost years ago.



==PA

[Doug]

PA wrote,

Honestly, do you guys think that we really need to start a full blown war in order to remove Saddam from power??

Probably not, but who knows for sure. Maybe the buidup is just to scare the sh*t out of Saddam so he leaves. There are some pretty good minds working on the situation and I say let them handle it. They have all the info, we don't. Put some faith in the leaders. If it doesn't work out then we deal with it. If it works out ok then we deal with that. Some would like to think they can predict all the horrible things that might happen. They can't, just speculate. Where would this country be if everyone was always so pessimistic and conspiricy theory oriented. Supposed to be the United States not the Divided States.

How about that Jimmy Carter! Ain't he a pip.

Doug

[Lefty]

There's an unwritten rule that the ex-presidents don't criticize the guy with the job. All the former Presidents adhered to that rule then came Clinton and Carter.
Clinton can't keep his mouth shut and Carter never met a dictator he didn't like.
Shame on both of them.

[Derek2U]

There is NO unwritten rule regarding that issue. There is no such
rule. It's a contrivance and if you could only pull back from your
own posts you would see how childish that statement is. Plus
many of your past 15,000 posts.

[cj]

Originally posted by Lefty
There's an unwritten rule that the ex-presidents don't criticize the guy with the job. All the former Presidents adhered to that rule then came Clinton and Carter.
Clinton can't keep his mouth shut and Carter never met a dictator he didn't like.
Shame on both of them.

Derek,

Actually, there is this sort of unwritten rule, but it is fairly new, last 20 years or so.

CJ

[Lefty]

Derek, you prove with every post you just don't know what is going on.

[Doug]

Unwritten rule or not. All this jerk-off Carter is doing is mucking things up for the US. If he is anti-war then let him join the protesters. Just out there making statements. No solutions. Even if Carter offered up some solutions, who the hell would would want to take his advice.

Clinton and Carter out there bashing US policy. Where do they get off?

Doug

[andicap]

Yeah, how dare they exercise their First Amendment rights.

I recall Herbert Hoover bashing the New Deal for 30 years, until his death in 1964. (OK, I don't recall, but I have read about it.).
Why was it OK for Hoover to bash FDR, Truman, etc. but not for Carter -- a Nobel Peace Prize winner for chrissakes -- to criticize the government's policy now.
And remember all the people who criticized the Vietnam war in 1967 -- turned out they were right. Just like the Republicans who criticized FDR for the Lend Lease Act in 1941. He wanted to fight Hitler! And he was getting bashed for it.
Hitler -- Hussein. Hmmm. I think Hitler was a little bigger threat.

But hey, never criticize the US government. It's always right.
It was right to back ultra far-right regimes that were killing its people in central America. (I forgot, we only far repressive regimes when it suits our purposes. In El Salvador, we joined WITH the repressive dictatorial regime against the people. You remember, the types of regimes that went around killing archbishops.)

[Lefty]

andicap, the Nobel Peace prize awarded to Carter solely for bashing the current Bush. What did Carter ever do to merit this prize?
The tipoff on the Nobel Peace Prize was when it was awarded to Gorbachev instead of Reagan. What a sad joke.
Last twenty yrs or so,past Presidents never criticised the incumbent. An unwritten rule that has been honered by every past Republican President And Most Democrats in the last 20 yrs(maybe more)until Clinton, Carter.
They show they have no class.

Hitler vs Hussein: That's why Sadaam must be taken care of now, lest he gets the power to become another Hitler. Exactly what we're trying to prevent.

[Doug]

Why is it that whenever a Dem/Republican is criticized the defending post is most always "Well so and so did this or that 20 yrs ago or 50 yrs ago".

We are talking about Jimmy Carter here, not Hoover or anyone else.

The only way Carter can get any attention is to add fuel to an anti-Bush fire in a foreign country. This guy must of let that Pulitzer Prize farce go to his head.

Saddam seems to make most in the world very uncomfortable. When I was in the US NAVY and we had a guy that wouldn't take regular showers it would make most of us very uncomfortable. We would then have what was called a "blanket party". Well Saddam is about to get his "blanket party" There were always a few that didn't want to participate. Instead they wanted to talk to the guy or just put up with it. The "blanket party" always solved the problem. Outsiders would ususally say something like "How could you do something like that?" They didn't know first hand what the situation was.


Doug

[karlskorner]

As I stood and pumped gas into my car on the way home this evening at $1.90 per gal. and wondering how high it will go and then coming home and reading the last 5 pages , the one word that is missing is OIL.

We need oil, Wall Street needs oil, the armed forces need oil, without oil we are dead in the water. If Saddam Hussein in any form controls our oil suppley, he must go. Forget who is in the White House, which ever party is in control, they are the puppets to Wall Street and big business and big business one and all needs oil to keep this country going. When the loaf of bread you are buying today for $1.50 goes to $4.00 because the cost of transporting it, making it and selling it depends on oil, you will realize we should have finished what we started with George Sr.

FDR needed WWII to pull this country out of a deep depression, his New Deal exhausted itself, had the damn pacifists not stopped Gen. George Patton, he would have rolled his tanks into Russia and the 20 years of the Cold War would never have happened.

We need oil. All the talk of bio-chemical warfare is just reasons thought up for us to go the get oil in order to survive. It's not our oil, but that never stopped us before.

[Lefty]

If we just wanted to "steal" someones oil supply we could just take over Kuwait as we're already there.
Everybody thinks Geo. the elder should have went all the way and rid ourselves of Sadaam.
A lot of these same people say we should not go into Iraq alone that we need a coalition.
It was the coalition that stopped us last time. That was the deal. We run Sadaam out of Kuwait but that's all or no coalition.
Just can't have it both ways.
If Sadaam stays he will become another Hitler.

[Derek2U]

Guys + Lefty .... Lefty I do respect your strongly held ideas and,
I will go on record & say U Lefty are a man of honesty, even if
it goes right on a red light too often. Yet, I would also like to
ask how many guys here like The Beatles? I just got my hands
on a book at Barnes-Nobles on sale for under $10 --- with what
got to be the most incredible book of PICTURES that your eyeS
ever seen. I am a Beatle Fan because they just did so many
Wonderful + Classy things, with no product to be ashamed of,
not even Magical Mystery Tour, so man did I love these Pics!
Just captured them. Its called "THE BEATLES / UNSEEN ARCHIVES"
its like so cool. Derek

[Lefty]

Derek, like some of the Beatles stuff, not all; but my wife's a fan.
For me it was Elvis, Dean Martin, Frankie Laine. yeah I know, gettin' old.

[Amazin]

Even Hitler would have trouble being Hitler today.If he saw the level of desrtruction that the U.S.military has today he would roll over in his grave.The threat of Saddam is another Bush lie to scare the American public in order to draw support for the war.The U.S. is the most technologically sophisticated military force on the planet.Iraq can't even hold a candle to it.They were crushed in the Gulf war.Over 100,000 Iraq soldiers died.Some buried alive in mass graves by the "good guys".It was under 200 soldiers for the American casualities.60% of Saddams military weapons were destroyed.Since then U.N. sactions have caused devastation on Iraq,socially and economically.It doesn't take much to figure out they are weaker now than the Gulf war.Israel has nuclear weopons.They could take bahgdad anytime they wanted to in a day.Sharon has been a butcher and is wanted for war crimes.How come Bush doesn't say anything about that.In fact Israel is in vlolation of countless U.N.resolutions that it has never complied to.Where's Bush standing up for human rights.Don't answer,I'm not that naive.

Bottom line.If your looking for the next likely Hitler,he's not in Iraq.Today's Hitler would be more powerful than his predecessor.He would bring Nuclear holocaust to our civiliztion.This Hitler must have the ABILITY to carry out his plans.There's only one man who fits this profile.Hint:he's from Texas

[Tom]

Not really lol

Beatles? Now your talking. I grew up on the Fab Four. They were really gear. Bought every record the day it came out. WKBW in Buffalo always had the ealry track on Beatles records. I went to see A Hard Day's Night in 1964 and literally got knocked down and trampled by screaming girls - just like in the movies.
I bought Sgt Pepper in mono, stereo 3 times, 8-track, cassette twice, and CD.
Wanna start a real fight? Ask two Beatle fans what their best single was. Then duck.
Question for you...who was the walrus?

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin


Bottom line.If your looking for the next likely Hitler,he's not in Iraq.Today's Hitler would be more powerful than his predecessor.He would bring Nuclear holocaust to our civiliztion.This Hitler must have the ABILITY to carry out his plans.There's only one man who fits this profile.Hint:he's from Texas


Wrong. pal. Bin Laden fits the bill more than anyone including Hitler, and he just might be doing his shopping in Iraq. What color is the sky in your little world, dude????

[Lefty]

Amazin, your post is not only amazin but incredible. To say Bush is more dangerous than Sadaam and to intimate that he's prob. the next Hitler is beyond belief. We might have the nuclear technoligy but we have a democratic govt. and Hitler was a dictater and Sadaam is a dictater and what indication has Geo. W gave you that he wants to take over the world? Has he gassed his own people? My god man, what influences bring you to such conclusions?
I question people like you with such views. I won't say you're unamerican, just incredibly uninformed and easily swayed by the liberal left and while, maybe, not unamerican, it sure is unbecoming.

[Derek2U]

Tom ... in the MMT the walrus was JOHN. Hey Question 4 U:
Glass Onion? IF Yes, I've Got another clue 4 U all, the Walrus
WAS paul. hehe

[Doug]

LEFTY WROTE IN RESPONSE TO AMAZIN,

I question people like you with such views. I won't say you're unamerican, just incredibly uninformed and easily swayed by the liberal left and while, maybe, not unamerican, it sure is unbecoming.


I say, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. Then Amazin is anti-american.

Amazin,

Which extreme left wing periodical did you copy that post from?
I have a gut feeling you did copy it. Which makes you even more of a puke than I originally thought you were. Hope your mother and father are proud of you. Or maybe they are too busy spreading BS to pay attention.

Doug

[Amazin]

Here's a jeopardy type question.Who said:

"It's Amazing I won.I was running against peace,prosperity and incumbency."

Answer: George Bush June 14 2001.Speaking to Swedish Prime Minister Goran Perrson unaware that a live television camera was still rolling.

One of my customers was a high school teacher in the same high school GWB was attending.According to my customer, when Jfk was assasinated Bush was yelling his Texan "Yeehah" out the window of the school.He was undoubtedly happy about it.Back then he was arrogant and obnoxious.Not very well liked by his fellow students

Bush the next Hitler? Too far fetched?Consider his backround and consider the path he's on.It is unprecidented for an American president to openly be the aggressor.Of course it's in the name of Terrorism.Endless Terrorism.This is a nice excuse to invade any country he wants.What will happen as a result of an Iraqui invasion.An escalation of terrorism.Which in turn will give Bush a greater justification to reattack whoever he wants.So what if he steps on the wrong toes which is what it looks like is happening in N.Korea.If we have Nuclear war as a result of his childish policies,he'll make Hitler look good.Hitler never had an arsenal like Bush has at his disposal.

[Lefty]

amazin, I flat don't believe the JFK quote about Bush celebrating JFK's death. He's just not that kind of man.
We are not the aggressor: No time in History have we been faced with what we're faced with now. Bush's "childish policies" as you call it will stabilize the world and make nuclear war less likely, not more.

During the American Revolution about a third of the people who were here didn't fight. They were either sympathetic to the King Of England or afraid of him.
Thank God for Geo. Washington and the brave men who followed him.
Without the U.S.A. this world would be in a lot worse shape than it is. Prob. would not be any democracy at all.

So here's a question, Amazin: Are you sympathetic to Sadaam or afraid of him?

[Amazin]

Lefty

My attitude is pro life.Saddam I do NOT like.Osama,ditto.But you can't be shortsighted.Just because a leader is American doesn't mean he's justified in killing people.What I see Bush and Sharon doing is no different than Osama or Saddam.They kill innocent people for their own greedy goals.Except they kill more. In God's eye's,you think they're any different.I try to see things as God would,though I am not religious.

[Lefty]

Amazin, I am Pro Life too. But letting guys like Saadam and Bin Laden have their way leads to more deaths not less and the more is american deaths. We had to kill a lot of people to stop Hitler and Hiro Hito but in the end we save millions of lives on all sides.
Please do not protest the war in the name of life, because OUR very lives are at stake.
You say ypu're Pro Life? Does that mean you're against abortion?
Just wondered.

[Doug]

AMAZIN WROTE,

One of my customers was a high school teacher in the same high school GWB was attending.According to my customer, when Jfk was assasinated Bush was yelling his Texan "Yeehah" out the window of the school

Hey Amazin. Wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge?

Amazin also wrote,

In God's eye's,you think they're any different.I try to see things as God would,though I am not religious.

WOW! Delusional??????

Doug

[Amazin]

Lefty qoute

"Please do not protest the war in the name of life, because OUR very lives are at stake."

This is same same thing they said during the Vietnam war,isn't it?.I understand your concerns and if I thought that the President was telling the truth,I'd feel the same as you.But there is too much overhelming evidence to the contrary.I used to believe everything I was told,until I found out that it was not the truth.

[Doug]

AMAZIN WROTE,

I used to believe everything I was told,until I found out that it was not the truth.


So now you believe everything is a lie?

When did this change take place? During the Clinton years?


Doug

[Amazin]

Douggie is so cute,isn't he?

[Doug]

Not cute, Amazin.

Meant to be as degrading as possible.

Were your ideas formed before, during or after that last hit of acid in the Haight-Ashbury District?

Doug

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
Lefty

My attitude is pro life.Saddam I do NOT like.Osama,ditto.But you can't be shortsighted.Just because a leader is American doesn't mean he's justified in killing people.What I see Bush and Sharon doing is no different than Osama or Saddam.They kill innocent people for their own greedy goals.Except they kill more. In God's eye's,you think they're any different.I try to see things as God would,though I am not religious.

Yeah, those SOB's - wanting to end El Qeda and liberating Afgahnistan, and eventually Iraq. And those poor Kuwaiti's- the atrocities we leveled on them. And Japan. how dare we rebuild thier country and economy! And EUROPE!
What kind of monsters would go in there and throw money and technology and compassion on those that sought to destroy us?
God, Stop us before we help anyone else!
We should learn to mind our own business and just contribute to the world like the muslims do everywhere.
I mean those great nations the lead the world in humanitarian efforts, like Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria, those role-mdoel nations who have helped shape the world in post WWII, like France, Germany, Belguim, Mexico. I mean, man, you got problems, call Mexico. they will be right there to help you out and set things right.
Yep, truly amazin how evil we really are.
I wouldn't blame all these countries if they jsut got fed up with us and stopped taking our foreign aid just out of spite.

[cj]

Originally posted by Amazin

...I try to see things as God would,though I am not religious.

That is by far the stupidest statement I've ever read!

CJ

[Amazin]

That's not stupid.What is stupid is that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about,yet you think you can criticize it.Nice one.

[Doug]

AMAZIN WROTE,

That's not stupid.What is stupid is that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about,yet you think you can criticize it.Nice one.

Do you have a clue what you are talking about?

"I try to see things as God would see them"

If that wasn't so f**king stupid, it would be funny.

Doug

[Lefty]

Amazin, I see plenty of evidence of lies by Sadaam, but I don't know what Geo. W's are. Could you point them out to me?

[Tom]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
That is by far the stupidest statement I've ever read!

CJ


I am sure he will break the record soon. this guy "tops" every day.

[Amazin]

This is for the intellectually challenged ultra consevative Pa board members who can't figure out what I mean by looking thru God,'s eyes.

Very Very simple.God is everyhere.Without God you would be dead.You can also refer to it as the energy that Einstien says can never be created nor destroyed.O.K.this is the hard part,so pay close attention,babies.If God is everywhere he is also inside you.What a genius!Voila as the French would say.So now if God is within us and we become in tune with that energy that some call God,you will be in harmony with it and in harmony with the universe and yourself.Therefore when you open your little eyeballs,you are seeing things thru God's eyes since you are aligned with that energy..But since this is the I hate everyone but Americans posters and you are aligning yourself with hatred for other people,when you open your eyeballs, your blind and haven't got a clue as to who you are.

[Tom]

I told you.

[Doug]

TOM,

Please forgive me for ever having doubted you.

Now there is another way to go blind.

Doug

[Tom]

Was that a crack about my "eyes?"

<G> HeheHe!

[Doug]

TOM,

Now that you mention it.

When I was young my folks told me I would go blind if I did certain things to myself. Now I've got some whacko telling me I will be blind if I don"t do this , that, or the other thing.

Now I'm f**cked. If one thing doesn't get me the other one will.

Think a tea cup poodle would make a good service dog?

Doug

[Lefty]

Well, I don't hate everyone but americans but there sure seems to be a "we americans are the evil ones" mentality amongst a whole bunch of liberals.
Let's see, Iraq is under the rule of a cruel dictator. It would be my guess the people of Iraq are not happy. When we win the war we will free them from the tyrant. Is that hate?

[Amazin]

This concludes the study on the search for intelligent life among ultra conservatives on the P.A. board.Once again the study shows an intelligent level well below that of more liberal members.Comprehension was poor and when the conservatives couldn't understand something,they either mocked it or became baffoon like in their behavior.Another kept asking the same questions in a seemingly endless circle.It is an established fact that a study made of higher intelligent or gifted individuals showed they had a propensity for humanitarian issues and were concerned with the welfare of other human beings from all walks of life.Sadly these members on the PA board can only be pitied and wish them a speedy recovery from their affliction.

[cj]

Originally posted by Tom
I told you.

Tom,

You win again. Now go to the window and collect on your $2.10 payoff :)!

CJ

[Lefty]

Amazin, nothing amazin about your last post. It was typical liberal putdown when you run out of argument.
Hey, you want questions that make a mobius loop? Read Lindsay's posts.
BTW: that means endless. Y'know, a stream of endless questions.
And they were the same questions over and over and over...
Now you just go off to your fantasyland where if we say "please don't hurt us cause we love you" and the rest of the world will just leave us be.

[Doug]

AMAZIN WROTE,

This concludes the study on the search for intelligent life among ultra conservatives on the P.A. board.Once again the study shows an intelligent level well below that of more liberal members.Comprehension was poor and when the conservatives couldn't understand something,they either mocked it or became baffoon like in their behavior.Another kept asking the same questions in a seemingly endless circle.It is an established fact that a study made of higher intelligent or gifted individuals showed they had a propensity for humanitarian issues and were concerned with the welfare of other human beings from all walks of life.Sadly these members on the PA board can only be pitied and wish them a speedy recovery from their affliction.

Haven't seen much in the way of humanitarian issues in your posts. Have seen a bunch of anti-american, Bush administration bashing and comparing of Bush to Hitler in your posts. I guess you self proclaimed gifted individuals consider that as having a propensity for humanitarian issues.

Doug

[Tom]

Here is a sample thread that some here are too lazy to look up.
Post 80 is particularly representative of some of the anti-Bush crap.

Enjoy!

[toetoe]

Wow, Tom. I thought the guy was a myth. He really existed. I'm in awe. :eek:

[BlueShoe]

Wow, it would seem that the lefty loons from 8 1/2 years ago were just as screwy and clueless as the current crop.

[mostpost]

Here is a sample thread that some here are too lazy to look up.
Post 80 is particularly representative of some of the anti-Bush crap.

Enjoy!
This is your example of Bush hatred in bygone days? You point to post # 80 as the best example. Yeah. it's also the only example. Everything else is criticism of his policies. I seem to have missed the part where he was called a POS, a hater of America, a communist or any of the diatribes Obama has been subject to.

A couple of other interesting things I noted. CJ was a more frequent contributor to Off Topic.
Lefty was just as clueless then. They gave Carter the Nobel Peace Prize because he bashed Bush. Seriously? I mean, SERIOUSLY?
Carter received the Nobel Peace Prize because of his work on the Camp David Accords, his diplomatic negotiations in any number of crises, including Haiti his work with Habitat for Humanity, his work as an observer of elections internationally.

George W. Bush should be honored to be bashed by Jimmy Carter.

[hcap]

Tom, you neglected to mention that today Obama gets bashed at an approx ration of 10 to 1 compared to Bush bashing then.

Also using Amazin' as representative of liberals on this board is a it far fetched, whereas you, box, CJD, ets, etc. etc, etc, etc, are all representative of the "center of gravity of" looney reactionaries here dumping on Obama.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tom, you neglected to mention that today Obama gets bashed at an approx ration of 10 to 1 compared to Bush bashing then.Even if that's true (which it isn't), there's a good reason for it...he's a worse president.

[boxcar]

This is your example of Bush hatred in bygone days? You point to post # 80 as the best example. Yeah. it's also the only example. Everything else is criticism of his policies. I seem to have missed the part where he was called a POS, a hater of America, a communist or any of the diatribes Obama has been subject to.

A couple of other interesting things I noted. CJ was a more frequent contributor to Off Topic.
Lefty was just as clueless then. They gave Carter the Nobel Peace Prize because he bashed Bush. Seriously? I mean, SERIOUSLY?
Carter received the Nobel Peace Prize because of his work on the Camp David Accords, his diplomatic negotiations in any number of crises, including Haiti his work with Habitat for Humanity, his work as an observer of elections internationally.

George W. Bush should be honored to be bashed by Jimmy Carter.

Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize because the Pot called the Kettle black, and that sent tingling sensations up the leg of Committee.

Boxcar

[maddog42]

Even if that's true (which it isn't), there's a good reason for it...he's a worse president.

Let me respectfully disagree. I am no big Obama fan. but have listened to
crazy criticisms on this board. Tell me ONE thing you like about Bush or situation that he handled well.
911? Bungled.
Katrina ?incompetent.
Spending? Worse than Obama. I know Obama spent more, but the Voodoo economics of cut taxes spend a lot is terrible.
Giving Tax breaks to Rich buddies ? Obvious
Tarp? not quite a failure, but no oversight.
War in Iraq ? amazingly bad from any viewpoint.
Afganistan? probably his biggest success. At least we got Bin Laden.
Bush Sr, was so much better than W. At least he was less of a crook and new how to handle Iraq/Kuwait.
PS I forgot Job Loss . This is the greatest failure in this Department since
Hoover.

[Tom]

I love how we pick it back up after years, like the thread was started Saturday! :lol:

[Lefty]

maddog, are you kidding me? At least the other liberals here admit it.
9-11 bungled. This just shows you have no clue.
He went right after terrorists after 9-11.
Obama won't even call a terrorist a terrorist. So give me a break.
Katrina was bungled by The gov and The New Orleans mayor, yet you'd rather blame Bush.

Hcap, If Obams getting more criticism than Bush at least he;s getting legit criticism and not personal attacks on himself and his family.

How much favorbility is the mainstream media showing Obama over Bush?
Probabably 40-1.

[PaceAdvantage]

Let me respectfully disagree. I am no big Obama fan. but have listened to
crazy criticisms on this board. Tell me ONE thing you like about Bush or situation that he handled well.
911? Bungled.
Katrina ?incompetent.
Spending? Worse than Obama. I know Obama spent more, but the Voodoo economics of cut taxes spend a lot is terrible.
Giving Tax breaks to Rich buddies ? Obvious
Tarp? not quite a failure, but no oversight.
War in Iraq ? amazingly bad from any viewpoint.
Afganistan? probably his biggest success. At least we got Bin Laden.
Bush Sr, was so much better than W. At least he was less of a crook and new how to handle Iraq/Kuwait.
PS I forgot Job Loss . This is the greatest failure in this Department since
Hoover.Bungled 9/11? Really...that's interesting. Considering every major news source was claiming that 9/11 was the "beginning of more to come in the months and years to follow," and not one (even semi-major) attack since...how exactly is that bungling? Unless you're claiming Bush could have stopped 9/11 from happening in the first place...considering how 9/11 went down, I don't see how that's possible.

Katrina? Much more blame must go to state and local officials on that one. But you can feel free to believe what the media wants you to believe.

Tax breaks to rich buddies? You mean like GE has enjoyed since buddying up to (and contributing heavily) to Obama? Gotcha...

War in Iraq? Saddam gone...region undergoing upheaval (which isn't necessarily a bad thing...we'll have to wait some more before we pass judgement on this one). A response to 9/11 was necessary, and Iraq was an easy first target. They had been defying UN sanctions and firing upon our aircraft in the no-fly zone for years. He had it coming.

Job loss? The unemployment rate is higher now than when Bush left office. Obama has been a total failure at producing job growth. At least the unemployment rate under Bush was fantastically low up until the very end of his presidency. That's when the effects of all that Democrat clamoring for "affordable housing for all" started to take effect (among other things).

Considering Obama has continued many if not all of the Bush policies, I can't see how you can say with a straight face that he's been a better president. Unemployment rate - HIGHER. Iraq and Afghanistan - STILL ON. GitMo - STILL OPEN. Housing market - STILL DEAD....what exactly has he done, except kill bin Laden?

Judging from this weekend's chaos in New York over threatened attacks, it seems bin Laden's death hasn't mattered much. Plus, we were promised that if we elected Obama, the world would love us...how has that turned out? :lol:

Yeah, Obama is a much better president...by what metric?

[Tom]

Certainly not logic or common sense!

[maddog42]

By almost any metric.
I noticed there were a couple of glaring omissions from your reply.
You did not mention Tarp.
You did not mention his spending or the deficit.
And yes I am saying that 911 might have been stopped. These attacks did not come out of the blue. I know 20-20 hindsight and all. The 30 some odd minutes after the 2nd plane hit WTC and before the Pentagon was hit has always bothered me. No response. At least a dozen FBI agents knew of the mad Moussaoui here in okla and nothing was done. Maybe no president would have stopped this.
Bush's response was to attack Iraq. This made no sense. No WMD's. No reason. Bush was looking for a reason to invade and he found one. The good will that we had from the world was squandered by this immoral war.
I never had a problem with the War in afganistan. At least that government was harboring Terrorists that attacked us.

Obama has never had a month where he lost 550,000 jobs. Not even close. Bush had at least 8 of them. The stimulus was never a good idea IMO. A WPA/jobs program would have been much better. And don't try to blame those first few months of job losses on Obama. Np president can turn things around that quickly.

I noticed in your comment on Iraq you never mentioned that 4000 American Soldiers died. This is Obama's greatest failure IMO.
You mentioned that Obama has kept most of Bush's policies intact. I guess by this logic they are roughly equal? Then why did you not attack Bush just as strongly? There seems to be a double standard here. I suspect you would be giving McCain a pass if he were "continuing most if not all of Bush's policies". At least we agree on this one. There is not a great deal of difference.
The biggest difference is that Bush has to shoulder most (not all) the blame for this economic mess. Remember when he said "Outsourcing is good for America"? Maybe if you are not the one losing your job.
Your blaming the Democrats and "affordable housing for all" for the Economic mess is ridiculous. Many republicans and Democrat predatory lenders were making MONEY in the Sub Prime market. This is a ludicrous assertion. I have a hard time even thinking you believe it. Watch the movie "Too Big To Fail".
Everybody was making Money.

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't mention Tarp because you didn't seem to be as critical of Bush for it...duh

And I didn't mention spending because you acknowledged in your own post that OBAMA SPENT MORE! Again...duh...

June of 2009...over 500k jobs lost...that's six months in...does that count?

And other than calling Obama a "do-nothing" president thus far, am I really on here attacking him all the time?

I don't think so...in fact, I've defended him against some of the more useless baloney posted here from time to time...

[maddog42]

I didn't mention Tarp because you didn't seem to be as critical of Bush for it...duh

And I didn't mention spending because you acknowledged in your own post that OBAMA SPENT MORE! Again...duh...

June of 2009...over 500k jobs lost...that's six months in...does that count?

And other than calling Obama a "do-nothing" president thus far, am I really on here attacking him all the time?

I don't think so...in fact, I've defended him against some of the more useless baloney posted here from time to time...

Because he took office in office in mid january, that is 5 months, but who's counting. And no it doesn't count. Useless baloney? I am going to remember that.

[PaceAdvantage]

Useless baloney? I am going to remember that.You do realize I was talking about the "useless baloney" posted about Obama that I criticize from time to time, correct? Meaning, I was actually defending Obama...you do understand that's what I wrote...hopefully...but one can never tell, given everyone around here has their lines drawn in the sand.

[maddog42]

You do realize I was talking about the "useless baloney" posted about Obama that I criticize from time to time, correct? Meaning, I was actually defending Obama...you do understand that's what I wrote...hopefully...but one can never tell, given everyone around here has their lines drawn in the sand.
I knew exactly what you meant. I was being a smart aleck. I apologize for being rude. I should learn to disagree more politely.

[Tom]

It may be baloney, but is is NOT worthless! Humphhhh.

Call Oscar Meyer. :rolleyes: