What a shocker!!

[fmhealth]

Hard to believe!

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=44720

[joanied]

Why would anyone still do :eek: business with this man is beyond me... I say deport the SOB!!!

:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: he rates 3 thumbs down from me!!

[JustRalph]

if you are a snake lover, you gotta hate this guy.................. :lol:

[Burls]

I'll throw this out:

The only difference between him and any other trainer with 20%+ wins is that he got caught.

[jma]

I'll throw this out:

The only difference between him and any other trainer with 20%+ wins is that he got caught.

So no trainer can win 20% without cheating, even when they have top stocks in 6-horse fields like Catalano at Arlington?

[northerndancer]

I'll throw this out:

The only difference between him and any other trainer with 20%+ wins is that he got caught.

You are way out of line with that generalization. I for one know that there are trainers who win in excess of 20% and do not break the rules.

This is the problem with this type of forum a preson makes a statement as you did and now the masses will start to believe it even though you provided no factual proof to support your statement. IMO if you are to participate in this type of community you need to be respectful of the content of your posts.

[joanied]

You are way out of line with that generalization. I for one know that there are trainers who win in excess of 20% and do not break the rules.

This is the problem with this type of forum a preson makes a statement as you did and now the masses will start to believe it even though you provided no factual proof to support your statement. IMO if you are to participate in this type of community you need to be respectful of the content of your posts.

I agree with northerndancer on this... burls, you cannot put every trainer with a good win record in the same boat as this SOB....if you really think every trainer with a 20% win average is cheating....then why :bang: are you a race fan?

[Greyfox]

Biancone should have been suspended for a lot longer - probably life. But the venom was found on his premises. They didn't catch him using it.

Having said that the article provided above is too nebulous and raises all sorts of questions. For example, why would they suspend him for 6 months and have him agree that he wouldn't reapply for a license for 1 year? Why was he even allowed on the Grandstand Public areas during his suspension? Years ago he would not have been allowed at the track period!

The 6 months is over. He's not suspended any more. What's the big deal? The article does not offer enough meat to sink one's teeth into. Until more details are forthcoming at the moment this is just a "Tempest in a Tea pot."

My suspicion reading between the lines of the article is that he's been training by "proxy." But they'd still have to prove that wouldn't they?

[LottaKash]

Does Cobra Venom JUICE a horse up....?

Hey, just asking..I'm an older person, maybe I could use some Venom......

[Burls]

Does Cobra Venom JUICE a horse up....?

Hey, just asking..I'm an older person, maybe I could use some Venom......

It deadens pain in sore spots.

[Burls]

You are way out of line with that generalization. I for one know that there are trainers who win in excess of 20% and do not break the rules.

This is the problem with this type of forum a preson makes a statement as you did and now the masses will start to believe it even though you provided no factual proof to support your statement. IMO if you are to participate in this type of community you need to be respectful of the content of your posts.OK
How about if I qualify it and claim that the majority of 20%+ trainers cross the line regarding illegal substances on a fairly regular basis?
The point is that Biancone's infraction is hardly unique in this day and age.
This is why he is merely getting the proverbial slap on the wrist.

[LottaKash]

It deadens pain in sore spots.

Thx for the clarification.......cool...:cool:

best,

[northerndancer]

I do not disagree with you that Biancone has been given the white glove treatment and it is not right. The fact is with his rap sheet I do agree with the consensus that he deserves a lifetime expulsion from the racing industry.

What I do not agree with is the blatant assumption that if you win you cheat. When this type of charge is voiced without actual evidence to support the claim it is not appropriate.

[Burls]

What I do not agree with is the blatant assumption that if you win you cheat. When this type of charge is voiced without actual evidence to support the claim it is not appropriate.

Let's see.....Asmussen, Dutrow , Mullins .....

[joanied]

Let's see.....Asmussen, Dutrow , Mullins .....

And I'll ask again...if you beleive that...why :confused: are you a race fan??

[Pace Cap'n]

And I'll ask again...if you beleive that...why :confused: are you a race fan??

What's not to believe? They have all served suspensions.

Are we to believe that only in the last couple of decades have trainers been blessed with the requisite talent to maintain such gaudy win percentages?

Also, there might be a distinction between someone who bets on horse races and a "race fan".

[joanied]

What's not to believe? They have all served suspensions.

Are we to believe that only in the last couple of decades have trainers been blessed with the requisite talent to maintain such gaudy win percentages?

Also, there might be a distinction between someone who bets on horse races and a "race fan".

Ok.... I give :faint: up...all trainers that win races are cheating.
I suppose a guy that bets the races doesn't have to be a race fan... seems like a contradiction:confused: to me...but hey, what do :rolleyes: I know!!

[Burls]

And I'll ask again...if you beleive that...why :confused: are you a race fan??Please explain why my belief that:
'Most of the trainers with gaudy and historically unparalled win percentages must be bending the rules (aka cheating).'
gives me a good reason to cease being a race fan.

I hate to rain on your parade, but the world may not be as rosy as it seems.

[Shenanigans]

There are a lot of cheating trainers out there and the three trainers mentioned have had their share of bad tests. What's amazing (with those three especially) is the large amount of bad tests they've had compared to the small amount of time they have been suspended. If racing jurisdictions really abided by their rules, these trainers, Asmussen in particular, wouldn't hardly have time out of suspension.
I wouldn't say that all trainers that have win percentages above 20% are cheaters. I have worked with some top trainers that have great percentages and don't cheat. They are just very good at conditioning and placing the horse where they need to be.

[joanied]

Please explain why my belief that:
'Most of the trainers with gaudy and historically unparalled win percentages must be bending the rules (aka cheating).'
gives me a good reason to cease being a race fan.

I hate to rain on your parade, but the world may not be as rosy as it seems.

Beleive me, you are not raining on MY parade!!
To each his own, different strokes for different folks, whatever rings your bell...and everyone has the right to their opinion...and, if you can bet races without being a race fan, all the more power to ya... I assume you stay away from betting a horse that a cheating:eek: trainer runs, that would not be very ethical.
Anyway-----:) :) :) and may the horse be with you!!!

[joanied]

There are a lot of cheating trainers out there and the three trainers mentioned have had their share of bad tests. What's amazing (with those three especially) is the large amount of bad tests they've had compared to the small amount of time they have been suspended. If racing jurisdictions really abided by their rules, these trainers, Asmussen in particular, wouldn't hardly have time out of suspension.
I wouldn't say that all trainers that have win percentages above 20% are cheaters. I have worked with some top trainers that have great percentages and don't cheat. They are just very good at conditioning and placing the horse where they need to be.

I'm sure there are a lot of 'cheaters' training...including the big three you mentioned...as far as I'm concerned, Asmussen doesn't deserve a horse like Curlin, that is my opinion....but I do beleive that the majority of trainers with a good win average are simply good horsemen.
I also beleive a lot of positive test results are because they can trace something within 1oooth's of whatever.....
but...I am totally against any drugs in horses, except for theraputic reasons when necessary. it is painfully true that trainers and vets have gotten way out of control with the use of drugs...it's an insane practice that in my opinion does way too much harm to the horses....it's a dangerous practice.
I beleive there needs to be an across the board drug policy...the same rules for every state that has race tracks, with no exceptions and hard penalties to violators. This thing about suspending a trainer for a month, 3 months, 6 months while they still 'train by proxy' is a crock of crap!!
The racing industry had better get off their collective butts and do something soon...this in fighting has been going on long enough and it makes me sick. I've been involved in horse racing, one way or another, for over 40 years, and it breaks my heart to see what has become of this great sport through the use of drugs...it trickles down to the breeding shed where we breed unsound horses to unsound horses and then pump :mad: them full of steroids ect. and wonder why in hell they break down.
Geeze :bang:
Off the soapbox :) now!!

[Greyfox]

If I were an honest trainer or horse owner I'd press management continuously to catch the cheaters.
But I'm a horse player.
I treat the game like golf.
"Play 'em as they lie."

Handicappers have to be open minded to what the data is giving them. Reality is what is happening, not what you want it to be.
"Play 'em as they lie."

[PaceAdvantage]

They are just very good at conditioning and placing the horse where they need to be.Exactly, and in this day and age (compared to the 'Golden Age of Yore') a top trainer has MANY MORE options at his fingertips in terms of sheer number of races and the ability to ship across the country at will.....

[jma]

Exactly, and in this day and age (compared to the 'Golden Age of Yore') a top trainer has MANY MORE options at his fingertips in terms of sheer number of races and the ability to ship across the country at will.....

Correct. I don't argue that there some fishy things going on, and I have my list of people who I believe are, shall we say, less than honest. However, winning 20 percent doesn't make you a crook. It's those blanket statements that aren't fair to those who are simply competent and pick their spots well. There are other reasons for the increase in high winning percentages:
1) As you wrote PA, you can ship more easily and pick your spots to win, and top trainers do just that with their best horses
2) In general, fields are smaller, and that means you have a better chance to win.
3) Nowadays horses run fewer races a year---the number drops every year. I think it's a little over six races a year now. That means trainers are less likely to give a horse a race or three to get in shape. That tactic used to lower a trainer's win percentage, but now if you're trying to make the most of your horse's six-race season, you are going to be trying to win more often than not. (Again, not saying no one uses the tactic, just that it's less common.)
3) There is a greater focus on win percentages. Not "winning", because that's always been important, but if a trainer is winning 15% and the leading trainer is winning 30%, the owner now asks why he's not winning like the other trainer. Also, there are owners now like Frank Calabrese, who I mentioned earlier. He wants wins, and he wants the owner's title at the tracks he runs at. He will claim for 10K and drop to 5K with no regrets. The willingness to do that will boost your win percentage, but doesn't mean you're cheating. Again, am I saying Wayne Catalano is a "hat, oats, and water" trainer? No. However, with the tactics his owner uses, he doesn't have to necessarily cheat to win a high percentage.

[joanied]

Correct. I don't argue that there some fishy things going on, and I have my list of people who I believe are, shall we say, less than honest. However, winning 20 percent doesn't make you a crook. It's those blanket statements that aren't fair to those who are simply competent and pick their spots well. There are other reasons for the increase in high winning percentages:
1) As you wrote PA, you can ship more easily and pick your spots to win, and top trainers do just that with their best horses
2) In general, fields are smaller, and that means you have a better chance to win.
3) Nowadays horses run fewer races a year---the number drops every year. I think it's a little over six races a year now. That means trainers are less likely to give a horse a race or three to get in shape. That tactic used to lower a trainer's win percentage, but now if you're trying to make the most of your horse's six-race season, you are going to be trying to win more often than not. (Again, not saying no one uses the tactic, just that it's less common.)
3) There is a greater focus on win percentages. Not "winning", because that's always been important, but if a trainer is winning 15% and the leading trainer is winning 30%, the owner now asks why he's not winning like the other trainer. Also, there are owners now like Frank Calabrese, who I mentioned earlier. He wants wins, and he wants the owner's title at the tracks he runs at. He will claim for 10K and drop to 5K with no regrets. The willingness to do that will boost your win percentage, but doesn't mean you're cheating. Again, am I saying Wayne Catalano is a "hat, oats, and water" trainer? No. However, with the tactics his owner uses, he doesn't have to necessarily cheat to win a high percentage.

Great post :ThmbUp: that says it all.
I doubt it will change the mind of 'Burl'...seems he is convinced they all cheat.

[Burls]

Why would anyone still do :eek: business with this man is beyond me... I say deport the SOB!!!Perhaps we need to settle on some firm middle ground here.
Not every 20%+ trainer cheats in the banned substance department.
Perhaps, not even the majority of them do.
But enough of them do that Biancone's antics are certainly not uncommon.
I would go as far as to say that they are common.
If so, it's a mistake to make him a pariah, as if he's the only one doing it.

[joanied]

Perhaps we need to settle on some firm middle ground here.
Not every 20%+ trainer cheats in the banned substance department.
Perhaps, not even the majority of them do.
But enough of them do that Biancone's antics are certainly not uncommon.
I would go as far as to say that they are common.
If so, it's a mistake to make him a pariah, as if he's the only one doing it.

Burl... I think the only reason we've made Biancone our 'target' is because the original post was about him...then it all got crazy with opinions...which is a good thing.
He is for sure not the only one. I read today that CA is finalizing their push to stop steroid use...it's a start, but as I stated before...we need the same rules, strictly enforced in every state that has racing... and they best get off their butts and get something done about this drug thing.
Anyway...we all know Biancone is not alone in being a 'bad boy'.
:) :) :)

[Track Phantom]

Couldn't disagree more Northern...

Because of all of this illegal drug crap, the perception is that all winning trainers cheat. It isn't anyone's fault to feel this way except for the horse racing officials that cannot control this situation. Their failure to unify and block these habitual offenders is the reason the game is a joke today. I applaud Philly for banning this trainer. Now, if more tracks follow suit and eliminate her ability to earn a living then the game is moving in the right direction.