NYRA Bars Trainer: This is juicey

[Cangamble]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/93802.htmlNYRA bars a trainer

By DAVID GRENINGNew York Racing Association officials have denied trainer Gregg Matties stalls for the Belmont spring meet and asked him to leave the grounds of their tracks after being alerted to irregular betting patterns in wagering accounts involving the Matties family.

"There were patterns of wagering activity at account wagering sites that we weren't happy about," NYRA's president, Charles Hayward, said. "We have reason to believe the accounts were in family-member names. We're not saying there was any race-fixing or anything like that going on."

Hayward said NYRA was made aware of these irregular betting patterns by the Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau.

Several members of the Matties family have competed in handicapping tournaments around the country. Paul and Duke Matties, who are brothers of Gregg, finished 36th and 56th in the Daily Racing Form/National Thoroughbred Racing Association Handicapping tournament in Las Vegas in January.

Matties, who had stalls at Belmont during Aqueduct's winter meet, won four races from 29 starters during the inner-track meet. He was 0 for 3 over the main track. His last runner, Debating, finished third in a $20,000 claiming race here on Wednesday and was claimed.

[Javagold]

what a freaking joke NYRA is :mad:

[Marlin]

The TRPB got another one. Hopefully this one can be resolved within three years.

[toetoe]

Apropos of nothing, GM is a big player in tournaments out this way (LV).

[slewis]

The TRPB got another one. Hopefully this one can be resolved within three years.

What exactly did they get???

[Marlin]

What exactly did they get???Apparently a cheater. I was referring to their still ongoing investigation of jockeys at Tampa Bay Downs. It has been going on for at least two years and has yet to be resolved. I am not a fan of this organization and was attempting to convey this through sarcasm.

[slewis]

Apropos of nothing, GM is a big player in tournaments out this way (LV).

I dont think your correct. It's not Greg the trainer whose the big player, it's other members of his family, and they ain't gettin' rich betting Greg's horses that's for sure.

Now I haven't got ALL the facts of this case yet but so far it sounds like this:

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.

[Cangamble]

Where do you draw the line? Lots of families in racing have someone in the business as a trainer/owner/jockey etc.
If a brother is a trainer, and another brother is a handicapper that does tons of research and bets huge...doesn't the handicapper have the right to bet big on his brothers horse or against his brother's horse if his system and numbers tell him to do so?
That is what I think is going on here.

[JustRalph]

anybody got a database that can tell us if this guy had a 6/5 or something that ran out of the money recently? Without more info you can't make a judgement on this.

[Cangamble]

anybody got a database that can tell us if this guy had a 6/5 or something that ran out of the money recently? Without more info you can't make a judgement on this.
I think there was a score made on a horse that recently won. And all I have to say is "so what" ?

[cj]

He is probably guilty of something. However, there are a lot bigger fish that are cheating out there. The problem is that they don't want to catch those guys, they run too many horses.

[shanta]

He is probably guilty of something. However, there are a lot bigger fish that are cheating out there. The problem is that they don't want to catch those guys, they run too many horses.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

This Matties thing is a joke.

[eastie]

duh, everyone knows the Matties train horses on the side and are mainly bettors. The amount of money bet on or against any of "their horses" is miniscule compared to how much they bet on horses every day. pick 6, pick 4, they bet plenty. I think they know much more about betting horses than training them. This is really unbelievable. Let's let the juice guys run free and guys who don't cheat can't get stalls cause they bet alot, which supports the racing, and the handle. Truth is stranger than fiction. If you told this to a mule , he'd kick you.

[slewis]

duh, everyone knows the Matties train horses on the side and are mainly bettors. The amount of money bet on or against any of "their horses" is miniscule compared to how much they bet on horses every day. pick 6, pick 4, they bet plenty. I think they know much more about betting horses than training them. This is really unbelievable. Let's let the juice guys run free and guys who don't cheat can't get stalls cause they bet alot, which supports the racing, and the handle. Truth is stranger than fiction. If you told this to a mule , he'd kick you.


Well said.

Bravo. I hope everyone on this forum starts to realize what I've been saying about NYRA.

Remember, this was NYRA, not the NYS racing and wagering board's decision.
They CONTINUE to be a "rich boy" club that want's to operate and make decisions on people's livelyhood as THEY see fit with NO accountabliliy.
They need SERIOUS oversight.
If Greg MAtties sues, and wins a 10 million $$ judgement against NYRA, NYRA just hands the bill to the taxpayers of the state of NY.
No accountability.

ARE YOU GETTING WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING .....MR P.A. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cj]

Well said.

Bravo. I hope everyone on this forum starts to realize what I've been saying about NYRA.

Remember, this was NYRA, not the NYS racing and wagering board's decision.
They CONTINUE to be a "rich boy" club that want's to operate and make decisions on people's livelyhood as THEY see fit with NO accountabliliy.
They need SERIOUS oversight.
If Greg MAtties sues, and wins a 10 million $$ judgement against NYRA, NYRA just hands the bill to the taxpayers of the state of NY.
No accountability.

ARE YOU GETTING WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING .....MR P.A. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The whole thing stinks. Why do they have to be so secretive about the incedent? If they are truly protecting me, tell me how they did it please. Is that too much to ask?

[Marlin]

I found it interesting that the TRPB found irregular betting patterns on account wagering sites. I guess they can just look up my account and my personal info and investigate my wagering patterns. WOW!!!!! Don't you need a warrant or something? Or maybe it is in the fine print of the agreement that the sites can or must share my info with them.

[cj]

I find it interesting, but more importantly scary.

[cj]

New York Racing Association officials have denied trainer Gregg Matties stalls for the Belmont spring meet and asked him to leave the grounds of their tracks after being alerted to irregular betting patterns in wagering accounts involving the Matties family.

By the way, the bolded part of the above is false, only stalls were denied.

[overunder]

I dont think your correct. It's not Greg the trainer whose the big player, it's other members of his family, and they ain't gettin' rich betting Greg's horses that's for sure.

Now I haven't got ALL the facts of this case yet but so far it sounds like this:

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.

They could be getting rich betting his horses. His average win odds are around 19/1. He only wins 6% of the time, but if you know when he's going to pop....

[slewis]

They could be getting rich betting his horses. His average win odds are around 19/1. He only wins 6% of the time, but if you know when he's going to pop....

Sir, (Or Mam)

I'm by no way trying to be disrespectful, but if you or anyone else thinks Greg Matties is a good enough trainer to "know when they're going to pop", you have alot to learn about this sport. I used to think knowing trainers would be an easy way to success at the races, I've been there full time for over a decade and now I wish I didn't know any of them.
Let me make my point like this:

Have you ever spoken to your friend or relative about his or her's son who's in Little League? Don't they always make you think their kids the next Mays or Seaver??? (notice I didn't say Clemens)
Most trainers (and owners, myself included) talk about their horses like people talk about their kids. Thesedays, whenever one comes touting to me, I do everything I can NOT to listen.

[the little guy]

Most trainers (and owners, myself included) talk about their horses like people talk about their kids. Thesedays, whenever one comes touting to me, I do everything I can NOT to listen.




I have to say I am losing respect for you now that I know there once was a time you cared what trainers said.

[slewis]

I have to say I am losing respect for you now that I know there once was a time you cared what trainers said.

Hey Buddy,

I have the losing tickets to back up this tale !

[slewis]

By the way, rumor around the track today was that after Matties hired legal council, NYRA did a 360 and he WILL be alotted stalls.
I guess more will be reported soon.

[the little guy]

Let me get this straight....you have stopped listening to trainers but not racetrack rumors.

The respect meter is plummeting.

[slewis]

Let me get this straight....you have stopped listening to trainers but not racetrack rumors.

The respect meter is plummeting.

Holy racefix Batman!

You can get Commissioner Gordon on the Batphone, I can't.
Call him up and get the truth for the post-ees.

As for me, I wish they wouldn't (do a 360), This case might be easier to win (for Matties) then the bogus land claim NYRA had. Of course, after NYRA lost a 2 or 3 million dollar civil rights violation lawsuit, they would just hand the tab over to the State of NY, like they do with all thEIR mismanaged decisions.
Oh and by the way, nice to brag on the NYRA web site how the handle for the Wood day was up 7 blah blah % from the yr before.
Ok, lets do the math here....emm, the avg of the last 4 fridays at Aqueduct was 7 million per day, they cancelled racing on Friday before the Wood on a beautiful day, so let's see, the way I learned math at CCNY, they're about minus 5 milliion on that management blunder.
Ok, they took a calculated risk and lost, I can live with it...
BUT DONT BRAG ON THE WEB-SITE HOW THE HANDLE IS UP FROM LAST YEAR!
Like I said, A ferris wheel at a carnival these guys would struggle managing!

[CryingForTheHorses]

I have to say I am losing respect for you now that I know there once was a time you cared what trainers said.

Aww C'mon TLG,Your making it sound like you are mad at all trainers. I will tell you this,LOTS of trainers do know what they are talking about,Even IF the owner or a respected guy like you doesnt believe them.I have seen many a horse ruined because the owner wanted to do something different.I have also seen trainers ruin horses.The bottom line on this thread is Ill bet there is much more to the story then the public knows..

[the little guy]

Aww C'mon TLG,Your making it sound like you are mad at all trainers. I will tell you this,LOTS of trainers do know what they are talking about,Even IF the owner or a respected guy like you doesnt believe them.I have seen many a horse ruined because the owner wanted to do something different.I have also seen trainers ruin horses.The bottom line on this thread is Ill bet there is much more to the story then the public knows..


I'm sure there's truth in everything you said.....and as the saying goes " some of my best friends are trainers. " And, you know what, I don't ask them about their horses. I root for them.

I don't ask for two reasons.....mostly because they work too damn hard to have someone bother them about their horses. And, secondly, because they lack objectivity. That doesn't mean that some don't have very good opinions....but I would prefer to remain as unbiased as possible.

[eastie]

i heard they are livid, especially dukie :mad:

[PaceAdvantage]

Well said.

Bravo. I hope everyone on this forum starts to realize what I've been saying about NYRA.

Remember, this was NYRA, not the NYS racing and wagering board's decision.OK, let me get this straight, because maybe I'm extra dumb tonight.

The Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau goes to NYRA with proof of "irregular betting patterns in wagering accounts involving the Matties family," NYRA takes action, and now you sit here and bring the shit bomb down on NYRA? Huh?

Let's turn it around for a minute. Let's say Dave Grening writes an article in the DRF reporting that the TRPB went to NYRA with evidence of irregular betting patterns with accounts involving the Matties family, and NYRA took NO ACTION. What would the response be on this message board?

Most likely, it would be the opposite of "Wow, NYRA is really great...look how they stood up for the trainer with family members who are accused of irregular betting patterns! They are the moral compass for the industry!"

When they invented the phrase "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't," perhaps they had NYRA in mind....

[lamboguy]

mr. haywood you were very subtle how you put things. i swear that doesn't hold you unaccountable for what you have done to this man and his family. when they take you apart along with NYRA you will be one sorry little sport. i promise you this pal, he will not let your poor judgement go unpunished.

[cj]

It is tough to watch the races of the horse in question and see what the big deal is. Maybe they made a lot of money on the win, but I don't see anything too shady about how the horse ran in any of his starts.

Of course, unless the whole story comes out, we'll be kept in the dark as usual.

[NY BRED]

Greg Dematties becomes the sacrifical lamb when in fact, the
deeper problem of the "power" claiming trainers continues.


Incredible form reversals , escalating speed figures and odds
on favorites for horses that formerly were ready to ship out to
MNR. EVD etc has become the norm in NY.

These magicians are running their own game, unchecked by any
regulatory powers.

Who is checking the betting patterns associated with theses stables
especially when their mediocre new claims open odds on, or
their "better" claims open up dead on the board?

[cj]

Who is checking the betting patterns associated with theses stables especially when their mediocre new claims open odds on, or
their "better" claims open up dead on the board?

Exactly.

[slewis]

OK, let me get this straight, because maybe I'm extra dumb tonight.

The Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau goes to NYRA with proof of "irregular betting patterns in wagering accounts involving the Matties family," NYRA takes action, and now you sit here and bring the shit bomb down on NYRA? Huh?

Let's turn it around for a minute. Let's say Dave Grening writes an article in the DRF reporting that the TRPB went to NYRA with evidence of irregular betting patterns with accounts involving the Matties family, and NYRA took NO ACTION. What would the response be on this message board?

Most likely, it would be the opposite of "Wow, NYRA is really great...look how they stood up for the trainer with family members who are accused of irregular betting patterns! They are the moral compass for the industry!"

When they invented the phrase "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't," perhaps they had NYRA in mind....

Spin spin,

I'll go out on a limb here:
I'm sure (without actually knowing) NYRA management, when presented with this evidence went to their crack legal team AND the NYS racing & Wagering bd and tried to get the OK to take his license away and bar him from the grounds. After about 1 minute of legal review, they realized they had nothing, so they use the leverage they have, stall alotments, as they have done in the past, to keep people out on NY racing. This action is irresponsible and why NYRA needs constant oversight. Do you think it's possible that this guy (Matties) constitutional rights may have been violated?
What if he sues NYRA and wins a big judgement, who pays? Duncker? Haywood?.. wrong. You see there is no accountability. They just do whatever they see fit. The correct management decision is to continue to monitor activity and when, and ONLY when the law is broken, take action.
NOT USE YOUR LEVERAGE TO TAKE PEOPLE'S LIVELYHOOD'S AWAY FROM THEM.
What's this guy supposed to do, tell his brothers not to bet? What control does he have over this?
Unless they have some serious evidence, they better do a 360 on this.

[JustRalph]

I think that they can just plain bar him from the grounds for whatever reason they want. That has been upheld before. See the case against the Jocks at Tampa Bay and other places last year.

[lamboguy]

they can bar anyone they want for any reason or no reason. but they cannot infer poor character. the smart thing to do would be for dutrow, levine, pletcher, violette and the rest of them to pull their horses off the grounds in support of greg.send the message guys, have some guts.

[the little guy]

they can bar anyone they want for any reason or no reason. but they cannot infer poor character. the smart thing to do would be for dutrow, levine, pletcher, violette and the rest of them to pull their horses off the grounds in support of greg.send the message guys, have some guts.


Better yet, maybe the Pope can stop by the Big A on his way out of town and put in a good word.

[JustRalph]

Better yet, maybe the Pope can stop by the Big A on his way out of town and put in a good word.


:lol: :lol:

[cj]

Better yet, maybe the Pope can stop by the Big A on his way out of town and put in a good word.

I like the Pope. He was a big overlay at Pinnacle during the conclave.

[the little guy]

I like the Pope. He was a big overlay at Pinnacle during the conclave.


I assume Pinnacle banned you for suspicious betting after this coup?

[cj]

Yep, they found out I had a Catholic brother.

[saratoga guy]

When they invented the phrase "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't," perhaps they had NYRA in mind....

Yeesh -- you got that right!

This thread is amazing... No one really has any idea what exactly is behind this move -- but lots of folks sure have an opinion it's wrong!

[Marlin]

Yeesh -- you got that right!

This thread is amazing... No one really has any idea what exactly is behind this move -- but lots of folks sure have an opinion it's wrong!Just reading the form. The TRPB sure busted some crooked jocks in Tampa. Two years later and they still have zero evidence but refuse to drop it.

[saratoga guy]

Just reading the form. The TRPB sure busted some crooked jocks in Tampa. Two years later and they still have zero evidence but refuse to drop it.

I'm not particularly inclined to defend the handling of the Tampa jockey situation.

But, that said, I really don't know what evidence they have there. How do you?

[PaceAdvantage]

Spin spin,It's not spin. It's common sense. NYRA hasn't exactly been the benefactor of a lot of positive news these last few years.

Therefore, I would think that when the "national investigative agency in the horse racing industry" whose mandate it is "to expose and investigate all activity prejudicial to horse racing and to maintain public confidence in the sport of both Thoroughbred and Standardbred racing" comes a knockin', you best take action, especially if you're an organization that has been beaten to a pulp by the press, the Feds and state gov't, and just now emerging with a second chance at things (maybe)....

[lamboguy]

i wish you were right, and there really was a legitamate reason for this. from what i understand this is a personal matter that got out of hand, and this is the result.

greg matties hit the lottery for $6 million dollars, he invests heavily in horses, and does some good for other human beings.

art sherman a very high percentage trainer gets caught with milkshaking 2 horses 2 years ago, apeals his 1 month suspension, and gets it cut down to 10 days. greg matties does nothing wrong, and gets life from NYRA.

[Javagold]

It's not spin. It's common sense. NYRA hasn't exactly been the benefactor of a lot of positive news these last few years.

Therefore, I would think that when the "national investigative agency in the horse racing industry" whose mandate it is "to expose and investigate all activity prejudicial to horse racing and to maintain public confidence in the sport of both Thoroughbred and Standardbred racing" comes a knockin', you best take action, especially if you're an organization that has been beaten to a pulp by the press, the Feds and state gov't, and just now emerging with a second chance at things (maybe)....

i dont agree, but lets say you are correct and they had to take action, why did it have to go to the press before all the facts were/are in....this is still the USA , where everyone is assumed INNOCENT until proven guilty and then the hypocrisy of the entire episode is disgusting , anyone know how many crooked trainers stable at NYRA, just look at the leading trainers to get a good idea who's who and yet they deny stalls to a trainer who is 4-27 this year....way to go NYRA, cant wait until this blows up in your face and that bufoon Hayward :liar: is bumbling his way through another excuse (which by the way i have email to steve crist blog a few times regarding this hayward cat and i never seem to get those emails posted on that darn blog....hmmmmm:bang: )

[lamboguy]

what do you think, this was hayward's first time with this move. if he don't like you he gets you thrown out. that is what power in the wrong hand's is all about

[PaceAdvantage]

i dont agree, but lets say you are correct and they had to take action, why did it have to go to the press before all the facts were/are in....this is still the USA , where everyone is assumed INNOCENT until proven guilty and then the hypocrisy of the entire episode is disgustingAs has been stated before, NYRA has the right to kick anyone they wish off their grounds, or deny stall space to anyone with or without reason.

If they are provided evidence that a trainer on their grounds may have questionable associations, this DOES NOT MEAN the said trainer is guilty of any wrong doing! In fact, I believe the Dave Grening story does not IN ANY WAY state that Matties himself did anything wrong. Hayward himself stresses this point with this statement: "We're not saying there was any race-fixing or anything like that going on."

But, guilty or not, Matties has no inherent right to be stabled or training on NYRA grounds. If they want him gone, he's gone, and there isn't much he can do about it...

Ever since NYRA landed in hot water, they have been crossing every "T" and dotting every "i." Those who sit here and imply that other trainers would be immune to similar scenarios are only kidding themselves.

[PaceAdvantage]

what do you think, this was hayward's first time with this move. if he don't like you he gets you thrown out. that is what power in the wrong hand's is all aboutCare to provide some evidence of this accusation?

[slewis]

Care to provide some evidence of this accusation?

Sure, several months back Rick Dutrow was suspended for a positive and sat out 7 days and paid his fine. NYRA, in conjunction with the NYS racing and wagering bd supoenaed his cell phone records and found he had dialed the number of his assistant during training hours, a rule that is NEVER enforced, until they want to "get" Rick Dutrow. Rick got another 2 weeks and $10g's.
I'm not holding any charity benefits for Rick, I;ve been to the guys house and he can afford it. But...
At about the same time, Pletcher, the "all american NYRA bd friendly trainer" served a long suspension that he fought vigorously in court, finally succumbing to I think 90 days. Why didn't they subpoena his cell phone records?
Do you think he didn't call his assistants during that time??
Ok, say it, "how do you know they didn't?, maybe they did and Pletcher's squeaky clean?"
Okie-doke.. How does Haywood know Gregg Matties talked to his brother about horses he (brother) bet?
They dont have any state appointed Bd members around yet and NYRA's already out of control.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ummmm....I don't think you answered my reply of providing evidence of Hayward "throwing out" a trainer because he didn't like the guy....

In fact, who was the last trainer before Matties to get "thrown out" of a NYRA track?

[slewis]

As I mentioned in my post.. Matties cannot be thrown out, he just won't be alotted stalls.


What's the question?

[slewis]

I was focusing on the "get" part of the statement the other post made, not the "thrown out part"


You're so darn technical... but I'm starting to like you.

[PaceAdvantage]

How does Haywood know Gregg Matties talked to his brother about horses he (brother) bet?There is little point in speculating any further until the facts of the investigation are more fully revealed (if indeed they ever are). Such facts that I am interested in:

What or who was it that prompted the TRPB to investigate in the first place?
What type of "irregular betting patterns" were discovered?

[slewis]

There is little point in speculating any further until the facts of the investigation are more fully revealed (if indeed they ever are). Such facts that I am interested in:

What or who was it that prompted the TRPB to investigate in the first place?
What type of "irregular betting patterns" were discovered?


It's very unlikely the public will get that information unless there's judication in a NYS court. NYRA really does not have to answer to anyone regarding stall alotments. But, violate someone's constitutional rights with what is deemed "arbitrary and capricious" behavior, attorney's told me you have a whale of a case, which Matties might have.. Last year, a Black trainer went to the NAACP and complained because they denied him stalls and NYRA shit in their pants so it's nota "what we say goes" completely situation.
As far as previous statements posted here about kicking people off the grounds if they see fit (NYRA) , that was questionable before the recent franchise agreement, especially if you had a state license to own or work in the racing industry. They needed grounds, and had to have a hearing. NOW, it's really under scrutiny because the State OWNS the land, and there are very different laws involving franchises and businesss on state owned land.
This issue is not the same at privately owned racetracks.
It always holds up in that situation(one being barred from the grounds) because tracks are privately owned.

[lamboguy]

a racetrack is LICENSED by the state. they have the final decision in any matter that takes place in a racetrack. as far as i can see matties got thrown out by hayward, not the state of new york. if memory serves me right buddy jacobson got thrown out by the racing commision.

[David-LV]

There is little point in speculating any further until the facts of the investigation are more fully revealed (if indeed they ever are). Such facts that I am interested in:

What or who was it that prompted the TRPB to investigate in the first place?
What type of "irregular betting patterns" were discovered?


Judging by past history, all the facts should be in by the time the Matties brothers are on Social Security.

The TRPB does not have a clue as to what is going on when it comes to what they say about so call "irregular betting patterns".

It is very tough to believe or support the TRPB or NYRA when they continue to talk out of both sides of their mouths.

This is just another small nail being put in this once great sport of horse racing. It really is very sad. :(

________
David

[slewis]

a racetrack is LICENSED by the state. they have the final decision in any matter that takes place in a racetrack. as far as i can see matties got thrown out by hayward, not the state of new york. if memory serves me right buddy jacobson got thrown out by the racing commision.

Wrong,

Ask your lawyer to look up case law involving NYRA.
Make sure you tell him that NYRA has agreed to terms that the State owns the land. Just like a public Golf course, if you break the law, or disrupt their business (which they would have to be able to prove if sued) they can remove you or ban you, other than that, they cant pick and choose who stays and who goes arbitralary.

[Prime Timber]

I know Gregg has "lawyered-up" and I hope he wins, If Melvin can call the NAACP and win...

Does anyone know if he's still allowed to use the grounds for training? I know he stables on Griddly off of the grounds..or would he maybe have to pay a fee?

[john del riccio]

You know, this has got to be the most hypocritical bunch of nonsense I have read. If the people in question were to have wagered off-shore. No one woul dbe the wiser and they'd of gotten a better price on their wager. The money doesn't go into the pools and everyone loses, except the person that gets called out for making a wager on hi sown horse.


Great job fellas. You certainly are on the ball.

John

[eastie]

There is little point in speculating any further until the facts of the investigation are more fully revealed (if indeed they ever are). Such facts that I am interested in:


What or who was it that prompted the TRPB to investigate in the first place?
What type of "irregular betting patterns" were discovered?




the brothers that bet are lucky they even know if Greg has anything in. They certainly didn't get rich betting on Greg's horses which seldom win. They are much better bettors than Greg is a trainer, though they are all nice guys. This is a farce.

[David-LV]

Gregg had a mount finish last in Sunday's 4th race.

Is the TRPB investigating the betting patterns on this last place finish?

What a complete joke NYRA is, they don't have a clue on how to run a business.

Why doesn't NYRA try and figure out how to get more than 500 people out to AQU daily instead of accusing hard working trainers that break their ass trying to be successful in a sport that is going straight downhill.

http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/instant_pdf.cgi?type=inc&country=USA&track=AQU&date=2008-04-20&race=4

_________
David

[magwell]

Gregg had a mount finish last in Sunday's 4th race.

Is the TRPB investigating the betting patterns on this last place finish?

What a complete joke NYRA is, they don't have a clue on how to run a business.

Why doesn't NYRA try and figure out how to get more than 500 people out to AQU daily instead of accusing hard working trainers that break their ass trying to be successful in a sport that is going straight downhill.

http://www.tsnhorse.com/cgi-bin/instant_pdf.cgi?type=inc&country=USA&track=AQU&date=2008-04-20&race=4

_________
David David, you just covered the nyra in one simple quote :ThmbUp:

[OTM Al]

Has anyone here considered the possiblity that they are making wagers on horses other than their own in the races that their horses were entered in? All we know is they were notified of suspicious activity and they acted on it. Anything else is supposition and paranoia

[David-LV]

Has anyone here considered the possiblity that they are making wagers on horses other than their own in the races that their horses were entered in? All we know is they were notified of suspicious activity and they acted on it. Anything else is supposition and paranoia

There is really no defense for the pinheads that run NYRA.

Just think we are going to get another 25 or 30 years of their crap and bull---t.:mad:

_____
David

[OTM Al]

You are correct, it is not a defense. It is a statement of fact. We don't know what was reported to them, so any commenting on why they did what they did is, in your words, BS.

Here's an opinion. If you don't like what NYRA does, don't play the tracks. Otherwise you are just another in a long line of hypocrites. I don't like the things that go on/have gone on at Philadelphia and Delaware. I don't bet the tracks. End of problem.

[David-LV]

You are correct, it is not a defense. It is a statement of fact. We don't know what was reported to them, so any commenting on why they did what they did is, in your words, BS.

Here's an opinion. If you don't like what NYRA does, don't play the tracks. Otherwise you are just another in a long line of hypocrites. I don't like the things that go on/have gone on at Philadelphia and Delaware. I don't bet the tracks. End of problem.

Still no defense when they have a lot more pressing problems like trying to stay solvent.

BTW: I don't play their tracks anymore. The value has been gone for a long time betting NY. To many sheet readers, to many short fields mostly at AQU.

_______
David

[David-LV]

The TRPB suspected a peculiar betting pattern - thats a good one. They wouldn't know a suspicious pattern if you laid it out in front of them along with video of the races.
Someone at the "new" NYRA did not want the kid around - thats it plain and simple - are Noe and Meyocks back already.

_____
David

[David-LV]

This seems to be the latest news on this situation.

The Matties' are huge bettors (a G-note a race). Well known handicappers to the major industry players.
Also, this barring is due to a large bet cashed by one of the trainer's family members on a horse who paid $19 (trained by Matties). The horse in question, apparently was Too Drunk To Call. He won on February 27th at Aqueduct with an 88 Beyer. His next start on a dead rail produced a 75 Beyer (he was 7-2 and finished fifth). Horses bounce, don't they? Next start (March 27th), he did something he never did before, took a lead out of the gate, went wire to wire, getting away with a 1:14:1 three quarter split in a mile and sixteenth race (the first two were a mile and seventy), and wound up romping home by more than 5 lengths while earning a lifetime best 92 Beyer.
Horses many times run their lifetime bests in wire to wire performances, as they are not under any pressure throughout the race to do anything that might impede on their breathing.
I see nothing wrong whatsoever with this victory. And the fact he paid so much is due to the fact that the public usually give way too much credit to the most recent race.


Family members and friends of horsemen make up a very large chunk of today's pools.
Where do you draw the line when it comes to what a family member can bet on. The Matties brothers (not the trainer) do a lot of research, to my understanding. If their system says play the brother's horse or even bet against it, I see nothing wrong. I also see nothing wrong with asking the trainer about the current condition of the horse. How can you even think about stopping this?

Rumour has it that Matties has been given his stalls back after threatening to sue NYRA. Good for him. He should sue regardless. Who does NYRA think they are?

_______
David

[Cangamble]

This seems to be the latest news on this situation.

The Matties' are huge bettors (a G-note a race). Well known handicappers to the major industry players.
Also, this barring is due to a large bet cashed by one of the trainer's family members on a horse who paid $19 (trained by Matties). The horse in question, apparently was Too Drunk To Call. He won on February 27th at Aqueduct with an 88 Beyer. His next start on a dead rail produced a 75 Beyer (he was 7-2 and finished fifth). Horses bounce, don't they? Next start (March 27th), he did something he never did before, took a lead out of the gate, went wire to wire, getting away with a 1:14:1 three quarter split in a mile and sixteenth race (the first two were a mile and seventy), and wound up romping home by more than 5 lengths while earning a lifetime best 92 Beyer.
Horses many times run their lifetime bests in wire to wire performances, as they are not under any pressure throughout the race to do anything that might impede on their breathing.
I see nothing wrong whatsoever with this victory. And the fact he paid so much is due to the fact that the public usually give way too much credit to the most recent race.


Family members and friends of horsemen make up a very large chunk of today's pools.
Where do you draw the line when it comes to what a family member can bet on. The Matties brothers (not the trainer) do a lot of research, to my understanding. If their system says play the brother's horse or even bet against it, I see nothing wrong. I also see nothing wrong with asking the trainer about the current condition of the horse. How can you even think about stopping this?

Rumour has it that Matties has been given his stalls back after threatening to sue NYRA. Good for him. He should sue regardless. Who does NYRA think they are?

_______
David
The least you could do is put down a source for the info you copied down:lol:

[David-LV]

The least you could do is put down a source for the info you copied down:lol:


Sorry I went back to do it and was past my 10 minutes.

Thank you for the info.

________
David

[Cangamble]

Sorry I went back to do it and was past my 10 minutes.

Thank you for the info.

________
David
No problem, I was just kidding with you. I love being quoted even if I don't get the credit.

[slewis]

You are correct, it is not a defense. It is a statement of fact. We don't know what was reported to them, so any commenting on why they did what they did is, in your words, BS.

Here's an opinion. If you don't like what NYRA does, don't play the tracks. Otherwise you are just another in a long line of hypocrites. I don't like the things that go on/have gone on at Philadelphia and Delaware. I don't bet the tracks. End of problem.

You know Al, it's comments and thinking like this that has this country in the situation it's in today. Your "opinion" which you are certainly entitled to, sucks.
You know what AL... I'd rather try and fight for what's right. It's the American way. So let me again make some points for you and those like you who don't get it.
NYRA has been awarded a FRANCHISE to operate a racetrack in a NON profit manner acting in behalf of the State of New York.
They (management and Bd of directors) are expected to make prudent decisions regarding the management of such, but they have in no way, shape or form, Gestapo-like power.
Major decisions, similar to this Matties incident, MUST and surely will be heard and adjucated in a NYS court.
Now I ask you Al??.. Don't you want everyone to be entitled to due-process?
What crime was committed here? (the answer is none, Haywood admitted that)
Should ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE have the power to stand at the fenced in gates of property OWNED by the taxpayers of this state and say, "he's ok to let in, but this guy, we dont like the way his uncle bets, or his aunt dresses, or color of skin, etc, therefore, he's barred" (Hence the term Gestapo-like).
Al, do you get why the opinion "if you dont like NYRA, dont play" sucks!
This racetrack isn't owned by NYRA, or MAGNA, or EMPIRE or anyone but the state and it's existance is for the commonwealth and pleasure of such.
NYRA's job is to mow the lawn.... let's keep it that way.

[David-LV]

You know Al, it's comments and thinking like this that has this country in the situation it's in today. Your "opinion" which you are certainly entitled to, sucks.
You know what AL... I'd rather try and fight for what's right. It's the American way. So let me again make some points for you and those like you who don't get it.
NYRA has been awarded a FRANCHISE to operate a racetrack in a NON profit manner acting in behalf of the State of New York.
They (management and Bd of directors) are expected to make prudent decisions regarding the management of such, but they have in no way, shape or form, Gestapo-like power.
Major decisions, similar to this Matties incident, MUST and surely will be heard and adjucated in a NYS court.
Now I ask you Al??.. Don't you want everyone to be entitled to due-process?
What crime was committed here? (the answer is none, Haywood admitted that)
Should ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE have the power to stand at the fenced in gates of property OWNED by the taxpayers of this state and say, "he's ok to let in, but this guy, we dont like the way his uncle bets, or his aunt dresses, or color of skin, etc, therefore, he's barred" (Hence the term Gestapo-like).
Al, do you get why the opinion "if you dont like NYRA, dont play" sucks!
This racetrack isn't owned by NYRA, or MAGNA, or EMPIRE or anyone but the state and it's existance is for the commonwealth and pleasure of such.
NYRA's job is to mow the lawn.... let's keep it that way.


Very well thought out, written, and explained.

On behalf of all of us bloggers, THANK YOU !! :ThmbUp:

A wonderful reality check for all of us.

_______
David

[Tom]

Just My two cents - the day the horsemen stand up for the bettors, I'll think about supporting them. Injustice, sure; do I care....nope.

A lot worse happens to deserving people everyday. I'll fight my own fights, not those who restrict internet wagering, dope horses, steal purses, screw us all.....they can fight thier own battles. Any free time I have to be a crusader will go to some deserving causes, not horsemen's problems. Far worthier issues out there to take a stand on.

I rarely play NYRA any more either. And never miss it.

[OTM Al]

You clearly have an axe to grind with NYRA. I don't know why, so I would not ever judge you or tell you what to do in that respect. But that is no reason to be insulting to others who don't feel in such a way. Frankly I see it very proper and very American to vote with your dollars. As a bettor, don't bet the track. As a owner or trainer, race elsewhere. Doing otherwise is tacit appoval of their practices.

As a bettor I am sick of people who scream that the 5th race was fixed or such and such a trainer is a juicer who then turn around and ask me who I like in the 6th. You want to stand and fight for what you think is right, fine. All I see though is "NYRA sucks". What can they do to make things better and how can they do that? Complaints get no one anywhere and simply build up hostility. Why don't you tell us, and them for that manner, in a clear, non-insulting manner how they can fix things. Doomsday prophets on street corners are fun for about 30 seconds and then the act gets old.

Is NYRA perfect? No its not. It has some very serious problems that have been around for a very long time and thus cannot be solved overnight. If you think however that racing can continue in any meaningful manner in the state of New York if NYRA just sits back and mows the grass, then you are fooling yourself. There are many issues in this state that are far more important than running racetracks. And if such is allowed, the special interests of the NY politicians left to their own devices WILL start carving up the pie and I guarantee you things will go down hill very quickly at that point.

There are 2 oversight boards over racing in New York. These are representatives of the state. Where were they on this? Evidently they didn't seem to take issue with the decision. Due process is deserved and maybe they should have done something about this rather than their normal mode of operations such as decisions like big bettors can't be given free passes cause that whole annual $200 worth of admissions fees means so much. Lacking such positive oversight, what do you want the organization to do? They have been battered with cases of impropriety, some justified, some downright ridiculous, but apparantly our free press can't expend any resources to find the truth so they go with the easy headline slamming that seedy horseracing business.

So if they do nothing, there goes another disparaging headline. They may have erred here, I don't know. But neither does anyone else for sure. The lack of transparancy is one of many problems no doubt, but would have it been better for them to come out and say that it looks like there has been some sort of impropriety in the betting by such and such an individual? In this day that guarantees a lawsuit too.

And to respond to David, I got no problem betting on your own horse. The problem comes if you start laying heavy on other horses in the race and then use your horse in such a way as to try to influence that outcome into occuring where it may not have if the race would be run more along the lines of the horse's standard pace line. Now they are animals and more often than not won't do exactly what you want them too, but such activity would be one that would really damage the trust of the patrons. I'm not saying this is what they did, but I can't imagine an investigation on someone who was betting on their own horse and that is all that seemed to get mention here.

[saratoga guy]

When the thread first took off I was baffled -- now it's more clear, it's propelled by the "NYRA-haters". Yeesh.

Hey fellas [and gals] give me a clue who out there is running tracks to your liking? Which racetrack entity today has a spotless record?

Magna? Do their problems at Santa Anita and Gulfstream this season make them somehow more appealing than NYRA?

Churchill? Hmm, it was only a few years back that they summarily banned a group of riders -- not for "hanky-panky" but for protesting the insurance situation. If you're upset at NYRA for banning the trainer -- do you give Churchill a pass?

Who else... Hmmm. Tampa puts on a nice product. Oh yeah, they listened to the TRPB and banned jocks last year.

Well -- you tell me -- you don't like NYRA, so who does it better? Who runs an operation in 2008 that's above any reproach?

And that "latest news" item posted above -- it's from Friday or Saturday and was posted by a blogger who doesn't have any more info than anyone else...

And the idea that this has to be "adjucated in a NYS court... Don't you want everyone to be entitled to due-process?"

That sounds good, sure. But do we really want "breaking the law" to be the standard. If your hospital is alerted that a doctor is doing shoddy work -- shouldn't they have the ability to fire him? Should they wait until he commits malpractice and maims someone? Or should they be pro-active?

Should a racetrack wait for someone to break the law -- or, if they're made aware of suspicious activities and the evidence warrants it, should they pro-actively step in and remove the offending parties?

Who knows -- this might prove to be a miscarriage of "justice" -- but that's the point, "who knows". At this stage there is hardly enough information out there for people to decide one way or the other...

[David-LV]

I would like somebody to name a track with a population base of the size of the New York area that only can figure out how to draw between 500 and 1000 customers daily.

Is it not NYRA who's job it is to market their product at fault to at least a small degree for the deterioration of New York racing and their on track fan base?

I sometimes wonder If NYRA was the CEO of any company how long they would last.

Profits always seem to go up when you have smarter management and fiscal responsiblity which judging by past history is missing where NYRA is concerned.

They have done less then zero for the fans and could care less.

_______
David

[HEY DUDE]

When the thread first took off I was baffled -- now it's more clear, it's propelled by the "NYRA-haters". Yeesh.

Hey fellas [and gals] give me a clue who out there is running tracks to your liking? Which racetrack entity today has a spotless record?

Magna? Do their problems at Santa Anita and Gulfstream this season make them somehow more appealing than NYRA?

Churchill? Hmm, it was only a few years back that they summarily banned a group of riders -- not for "hanky-panky" but for protesting the insurance situation. If you're upset at NYRA for banning the trainer -- do you give Churchill a pass?

Who else... Hmmm. Tampa puts on a nice product. Oh yeah, they listened to the TRPB and banned jocks last year.

Well -- you tell me -- you don't like NYRA, so who does it better? Who runs an operation in 2008 that's above any reproach?

And that "latest news" item posted above -- it's from Friday or Saturday and was posted by a blogger who doesn't have any more info than anyone else...

And the idea that this has to be "adjucated in a NYS court... Don't you want everyone to be entitled to due-process?"

That sounds good, sure. But do we really want "breaking the law" to be the standard. If your hospital is alerted that a doctor is doing shoddy work -- shouldn't they have the ability to fire him? Should they wait until he commits malpractice and maims someone? Or should they be pro-active?

Should a racetrack wait for someone to break the law -- or, if they're made aware of suspicious activities and the evidence warrants it, should they pro-actively step in and remove the offending parties?

Who knows -- this might prove to be a miscarriage of "justice" -- but that's the point, "who knows". At this stage there is hardly enough information out there for people to decide one way or the other...


KEENLAND
I know thier meets are small and its not apples to apples in comparision to NYRA. However, I think they have a good model. In ref to an opinion in this matter with NYRA and the trainer, I don't know enough of the facts to make one.

[saratoga guy]

I would like somebody to name a track with a population base of the size of the New York area that only can figure out how to draw between 500 and 1000 customers daily.

A) According to your "location" you're in Vegas -- so why do you care what the on-track attendance is?

B) Really, how many days a year is attendance at a NYRA track below 1000?

C) How many other cities have the population-base of NY -- so how can we answer that question logically?

D) How many OTBs are located in NY city as compared to other metropolitan areas that have racetracks? How long have the NYC OTBs been operating and pulling customers away from the track?

E) You're conventiently ignoring that NYRA runs the leading US racetrack in terms of quality, prestige and attendance. And the argument that, "anybody could make Saratoga successful," simply isn't true.

Is it not NYRA who's job it is to market their product at fault to at least a small degree for the deterioration of New York racing and their on track fan base?

I don't think most tracks do a particularly good job of marketing. But that's not specific to NYRA. It's a problem with the industry.

Profits always seem to go up when you have smarter management and fiscal responsiblity which judging by past history is missing where NYRA is concerned.

Again, point me to some racetrack management out there that you think is doing a more commendable job.

[saratoga guy]

KEENLAND
I know thier meets are small and its not apples to apples in comparision to NYRA. However, I think they have a good model. In ref to an opinion in this matter with NYRA and the trainer, I don't know enough of the facts to make one.

Like some of the others I've mentioned -- they put on a good product, but it's hard to consider them above reproach reading the commentaries being written recently raking them over the coals for their conversion to Polytrack, and looking at the recent 17% handle decline.

[slewis]

And the idea that this has to be "adjucated in a NYS court... Don't you want everyone to be entitled to due-process?"

That sounds good, sure. But do we really want "breaking the law" to be the standard. If your hospital is alerted that a doctor is doing shoddy work -- shouldn't they have the ability to fire him? Should they wait until he commits malpractice and maims someone? Or should they be pro-active?

Should a racetrack wait for someone to break the law -- or, if they're made aware of suspicious activities and the evidence warrants it, should they pro-actively step in and remove the offending parties?

Who knows -- this might prove to be a miscarriage of "justice" -- but that's the point, "who knows". At this stage there is hardly enough information out there for people to decide one way or the other...

To answer your question "Do you really want breaking the law to be the standard?"

Umm. let's see... No, I'm comfortable with Haywood and Duncker standing at the door with armed security guards determining in all their wisdom, who stays and who goes.
I can see it now.... Ok, Pletcher, McLaughlin, you guys are ok, Levine, well were watchin you, Dutrow, oh, we haven't figured you out yet but you're to too good to be true so, see ya.
I would argue for your rights the same way I'm arguing for Gregg's or anyone else's for that matter. Yes, everyone WILL be entitled to due process.
As far as your statement's regarding MAGNA, Tampa, etc.
Thank God the politician's are smart enough (and they dont really give a shit about racing) not to privatize AQU, Bel, and Spa. Keep in mind that if not for the slots, Stronach probably would not have been so aggressive in his racetrack dominance. Shame on whoever in Fla. allowed him to ruin Gulfstream Park.
But let's not use comparison's with other tracks. I'd prefer NYRA, and I said this in previous posts, to start fresh and make NY racing the standard every track shoots for. It's much much too soon to cry too loud against them.
BUT, decisions like this are clearly a step in the WRONG direction.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/report.gif (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/report.php?p=515589)

[saratoga guy]

Umm. let's see... No, I'm comfortable with Haywood and Duncker standing at the door with armed security guards determining in all their wisdom, who stays and who goes.

I'm reasonably certain that no armed guards were involved. For that matter -- "Hayward and Duncker" weren't standing at the door meting out "justice". Rather they responded to information given to them by the TRPB, the organization the industry mandates to examine this type of thing.

BUT, decisions like this are clearly a step in the WRONG direction.

This is what I find strange about this thread -- without knowing the specifics how can you possibly decide if the move is right or wrong?

[slewis]

E) You're conventiently ignoring that NYRA runs the leading US racetrack in terms of quality, prestige and attendance. And the argument that, "anybody could make Saratoga successful," simply isn't true.


Sorry Spa guy,

I think deep deep way deep down inside even you know, It would be awfully hard to screw up Saratoga.

They should start by stopping the stupid giveaways which dont bring real fans through the door (or potential ones) and just artificially inflate attendance. I think NYRA might be under pressure from upstate politicians to cease that policy even though I think management realizes it's a nusience, so no fault to them there.
I Do agree with you that tracks do a poor job marketing their product, but, as someone who's at the track each day, I've often wondered with all the competition on NY and things to do, it's no easy task.
I would just like to see NYRA TRY some different things. Now that finances are being sorted out, it might free capital to try.
They've hired some new people so we'll see.

[slewis]

I'm reasonably certain that no armed guards were involved. For that matter -- "Hayward and Duncker" weren't standing at the door meting out "justice". Rather they responded to information given to them by the TRPB, the organization the industry mandates to examine this type of thing.



This is what I find strange about this thread -- without knowing the specifics how can you possibly decide if the move is right or wrong?

Come on now. I can tell by your articulation that you're an intelligent person.

It's simple... If NO LAW WAS BROKEN, nothing illegal done, (which Haywood stated) why are they (NYRA) using their leverage in stall allotments to punish Matties?
Would you like you're living taken from you because of what another family member did..(which is NOT illegal either). And dont say he can stable at Monmouth and ship in, because that's B.S.
Dont think I'm not looking at this from NYRA's prospective either, because I did, but we CANNOT allow behavior like this, it's Un-American.
If Matties breaks the law, the rules, fine, but allowing this "improper behavior by association" or God knows what to call it, is ridiculous!

[saratoga guy]

I think deep deep way deep down inside even you know, It would be awfully hard to screw up Saratoga.

That's simply not true. Fact is, you don't have to go really far back to find days when Saratoga was floundering. Things didn't really start to pick up until the '70's.

And, I would ask people to look no further than Gulfstream to see an example of an "infallible".

Short, defined meet in a warm, sunny clime during the winter months populated by top trainers and horses...

Couldn't screw that up, right?

[saratoga guy]

Would you like you're living taken from you because of what another family member did..(which is NOT illegal either).

Let me throw a scenario out there -- and I'll reiterate that I don't know anything about the particular case in question besides what I've read, so I'm just tossing out a hypothetical scenario to see if perhaps there's a situation where the critics might think this type of action was prudent.

I'll exaggerate to make a point:

Let's say a trainer's Dad has a wagering account. Upon investigation it's learned that the Dad made ten bets during the last year. They were all P3s. And he won all of them.

All of the P3s went deep into two legs -- and he singled his kid's horse in the other leg.

Upon closer examination it was discovered that all of the kid's horses that the Dad won on came into their races in similar fashion -- they won two back, lost the next time at a short price, and then moved up in class and won at a big price.

You might argue that perhaps the Dad was just going by that "angle" -- except the kid had twenty other horses during the year that fit the angle that the Dad didn't bet on. Those horses all lost.

So it starts to look like the kid knows when a particular horse is getting good, uses a race to "darken" its form, and then moves in for the score.

Sure, there is a wink-wink, nudge-nudge among everyone that has been around racing long enough to know that some "games" go on. But when the abuse starts to become blatant and systematic shouldn't the authorities act?

There are certainly plenty of "untraceable" ways a trainer could get his horse to run at less than optimum performance in a particular race. And, if they're not betting against that horse, the "darkened form" race is essentially just another race. Did anything illegal go on?

But again, don't the authorities have to act if they become aware of something like this? What if the Dad took down the entire P6 carryover pool of $1mil with one of these horses? Wouldn't that be cheating the betting public out of millions of dollars?

[Bruddah]

You are correct, it is not a defense. It is a statement of fact. We don't know what was reported to them, so any commenting on why they did what they did is, in your words, BS.

Here's an opinion. If you don't like what NYRA does, don't play the tracks. Otherwise you are just another in a long line of hypocrites. I don't like the things that go on/have gone on at Philadelphia and Delaware. I don't bet the tracks. End of problem.


That sir, is exactly the stance I took over two years ago with all NYRA tracks, even my beloved Saratoga meet. If you don't like whose running the show and the show they have created...don't bet.

If enough did the same, eventually the NYRA's over priced management would get the message. :ThmbUp:

[slewis]

Let me throw a scenario out there -- and I'll reiterate that I don't know anything about the particular case in question besides what I've read, so I'm just tossing out a hypothetical scenario to see if perhaps there's a situation where the critics might think this type of action was prudent.

I'll exaggerate to make a point:

Let's say a trainer's Dad has a wagering account. Upon investigation it's learned that the Dad made ten bets during the last year. They were all P3s. And he won all of them.

All of the P3s went deep into two legs -- and he singled his kid's horse in the other leg.

Upon closer examination it was discovered that all of the kid's horses that the Dad won on came into their races in similar fashion -- they won two back, lost the next time at a short price, and then moved up in class and won at a big price.

You might argue that perhaps the Dad was just going by that "angle" -- except the kid had twenty other horses during the year that fit the angle that the Dad didn't bet on. Those horses all lost.

So it starts to look like the kid knows when a particular horse is getting good, uses a race to "darken" its form, and then moves in for the score.

Sure, there is a wink-wink, nudge-nudge among everyone that has been around racing long enough to know that some "games" go on. But when the abuse starts to become blatant and systematic shouldn't the authorities act?

There are certainly plenty of "untraceable" ways a trainer could get his horse to run at less than optimum performance in a particular race. And, if they're not betting against that horse, the "darkened form" race is essentially just another race. Did anything illegal go on?

But again, don't the authorities have to act if they become aware of something like this? What if the Dad took down the entire P6 carryover pool of $1mil with one of these horses? Wouldn't that be cheating the betting public out of millions of dollars?

Yes yes..act act... within the boundaries of the law. Haywood said there was no nudging or winking that took place here.
My God. I give up, you know what, you're right. I think the USA should be run the same way, whatever crimes the authorities "think" you may have committed, even though they told the press you didn't really commit any, they should be able to put you in jail, or kick you out of the country.:lol:

[wonatthewire1]

I would like somebody to name a track with a population base of the size of the New York area that only can figure out how to draw between 500 and 1000 customers daily.

Is it not NYRA who's job it is to market their product at fault to at least a small degree for the deterioration of New York racing and their on track fan base?

I sometimes wonder If NYRA was the CEO of any company how long they would last.

Profits always seem to go up when you have smarter management and fiscal responsiblity which judging by past history is missing where NYRA is concerned.

They have done less then zero for the fans and could care less.

_______
David


NYRA should put lights in and race on weeknights...

[dutchboy]

By the way, rumor around the track today was that after Matties hired legal council, NYRA did a 360 and he WILL be alotted stalls.
I guess more will be reported soon.

A 360 would put them back to where they were. Maybe they did a 180. Just kidding.

[lamboguy]

yeah right, they will be lined up from here to shang-hai to get into aqueduct at night

[saratoga guy]

Yes yes..act act... within the boundaries of the law. Haywood said there was no nudging or winking that took place here.

No, he said there was no "race-fixing".

We don't know what went on. That's the point. The scenario wasn't meant to say here's what could have happened in this case -- rather it was an example of something that doesn't necessarily involve illegalities, but certainly should attract the attention of the authorities.

My God. I give up, you know what, you're right. I think the USA should be run the same way, whatever crimes the authorities "think" you may have committed, even though they told the press you didn't really commit any, they should be able to put you in jail, or kick you out of the country.:lol:

Well, there's an awfully long stretch between denying someone stall space -- while permitting him to enter horses -- and sending someone to jail. And as far as I know no one has been accused of committing a crime in this case. But certainly a business should have the right to "fire" people they deem detrimental to that business. By your logic businesses shouldn't be able to fire anyone unless they break a law...

[slewis]

No, he said there was no "race-fixing".

We don't know what went on. That's the point. The scenario wasn't meant to say here's what could have happened in this case -- rather it was an example of something that doesn't necessarily involve illegalities, but certainly should attract the attention of the authorities.



Well, there's an awfully long stretch between denying someone stall space -- while permitting him to enter horses -- and sending someone to jail. And as far as I know no one has been accused of committing a crime in this case. But certainly a business should have the right to "fire" people they deem detrimental to that business. By your logic businesses shouldn't be able to fire anyone unless they break a law...

MATTIES DOES NOT WORK FOR NYRA. If your going to suggest what my logic is, make sure your accurate.
By the way.. I'll go out on a limb here, If NYRA really had something criminal on Gregg, they would NOT hesitate to ask the DA to prosecute.
I'd bet this is the best they could muster up (at the advice of their counsul) so this is what they did.
Now there's one more thing I want to remind you of here, and why every taxpayer in this state should care about situations like this and I've stated something similar before.
When you take action like this, I hope the NYRA attorney's made certain their position is going to hold up when Matties sues, because if it does not, he may be awarded damages, and they might, maybe, just maybe be significant.
Now here's my problem, if YOU were to own NYRA, and I win a 2 million dollar judgement against NYRA, it comes out of YOUR pocket.
But in this case, the taxpayers of the state are going to take the hit on this "flyer" that Haywood is taking, making an example of a trainer who races 30 times a year. Now I'll remind you of some other NYRA blunders, does the name "Manny" the Saratoga maitre-D ring a bell? He was fired when the NYRA set him up by marking $100 bills and bribing him for a table when he told the undercover cop that their were none to be had. Guess what. He did work for NYRA and was fired. Guess what, he easily won his lawsuit against them and was awarded damages. Guess who pays. Haywood? Duncker?
How's about the fact that NYRA didn't pay overtime to employees for 10 yrs and recently had to settle a hopeless lawsuit and pay people SIGNIFICANT back wages. WHO PAYS? MEYOCKS, HAYWOOD DUNCKER??? NO
The taxpayers will continue to flip the bill for poor management decisions, like this one. Unless the DA can criminally prosecute, just let it go.
That would be a smart business decision.
I really dont know why I continue to bother pointing this shit out, some on this forum dont see the reality of what these guys are about.
They (NYRA) think it's "their" game, to be run the way THEY see fit, without answering to ANYONE, and when "they" f-up, well the taxpayers will just bail us out. What a gig.

[JustRalph]

A 360 would put them back to where they were. Maybe they did a 180. Just kidding.

I wasn't going to mention it............ :lol: :lol:

[saratoga guy]

MATTIES DOES NOT WORK FOR NYRA.

Yeah, I'm aware of that -- that's why I put "fire" in quotes... But are you suggesting that because of that status a track shouldn't be allowed to remove a trainer unless he does something criminal -- regardless of how detrimental his behavior might be to the business?

Let's say a trainer drives up to his barn every night at 8:30pm and drops the tailgate on his pickup, pulls out a grill, fires up the bar-b-q and puts out a couple of huge speakers blasting rock music and agitating horses in a five-barn radius. Other trainers complain that they can't enter their worked-up horses the next day. Some trainers decide to anyway and the riled up horses run poorly at low odds.

This is bad for business. The trainer hasn't broken the law. But according to you the track shouldn't be able to toss him out?

Now here's my problem, if YOU were to own NYRA, and I win a 2 million dollar judgement against NYRA, it comes out of YOUR pocket.

How many "you"s are out there owning tracks? Most of the large tracks have some kind of corporate structure. So financial setbacks don't come out of the pockets of the people making these decisions at most places.

We can argue whether or not the structure of racing is NY is efficient -- but being a quasi-public entity shouldn't dissuade those in charge from making these types of decisions.

Going back to the scenario I laid out earlier -- if that Dad pulled down a $1mil P6 in the manner I hypothesized I feel certain the if the betting public became aware of the situation they would not be comforted to know that those in charge were aware but "just let it go."

[slewis]

Yeah, I'm aware of that -- that's why I put "fire" in quotes... But are you suggesting that because of that status a track shouldn't be allowed to remove a trainer unless he does something criminal -- regardless of how detrimental his behavior might be to the business?

Let's say a trainer drives up to his barn every night at 8:30pm and drops the tailgate on his pickup, pulls out a grill, fires up the bar-b-q and puts out a couple of huge speakers blasting rock music and agitating horses in a five-barn radius. Other trainers complain that they can't enter their worked-up horses the next day. Some trainers decide to anyway and the riled up horses run poorly at low odds.

This is bad for business. The trainer hasn't broken the law. But according to you the track shouldn't be able to toss him out?




How many "you"s are out there owning tracks? Most of the large tracks have some kind of corporate structure. So financial setbacks don't come out of the pockets of the people making these decisions at most places.

We can argue whether or not the structure of racing is NY is efficient -- but being a quasi-public entity shouldn't dissuade those in charge from making these types of decisions.

Going back to the scenario I laid out earlier -- if that Dad pulled down a $1mil P6 in the manner I hypothesized I feel certain the if the betting public became aware of the situation they would not be comforted to know that those in charge were aware but "just let it go."

You need to spend some time on the backstretch. There are rules everyone must adhere to and you're example of the trainers music blasting is pretty hideus. But, he would be reported to the stewards, warned, then fined and suspended or both, and if behavior like that continued, barred from the backstretch.
If he took the track to court the judge would clearly rule that the track can and should set rules so their operation runs smoothly provided they are reasonably the same for everyone. This plaintiff's complaint against the track regarding his "right" to play music would be dismissed in less then the time it takes a $5000 claimer to run 1/4 of a mile.
Hey, I dont know how the judge will rule when Matties sue's. I have a couple of friends who are lawyers, A few family members who are lawyers and one who's a judge, and no one's taking NYRA's side here, but they have said that NYRA's right to alot stalls may not be challengeable in court.
As far as your other silly example goes, the million dollar pick six, If I were the judge I'd ask NYRA, "was there any drugging, race tampering, fixing, etc, of any kind that you can prove? If the answer was no, and Haywood told the press it was "NO", then "did Mr. Matties have any influence on the other 5 races his brother picked in this P6?." If that answer was "no" then I'd tell Mr. Matties to make sure his brother buys him a bottle of the best Champagne in Vegas,then instruct NYRA to provide Matties with the same number of stalls he had previously, and any similar action taken by NYRA without even a misdomeanor in question will be considered harrassment.
But I would'nt award him a penny in damages, I'd just make Haywood and Duncker muck stalls for the guy for 30 days.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is it not NYRA who's job it is to market their product at fault to at least a small degree for the deterioration of New York racing and their on track fan base?Nope, NYRA's only job should be (according to one reply here) mowing the lawn.

[PaceAdvantage]

I would like somebody to name a track with a population base of the size of the New York area that only can figure out how to draw between 500 and 1000 customers daily.Huh? Where are you getting these numbers from? 500-1000? When? During a blizzard?

[saratoga guy]

As far as your other silly example goes...

Exaggerated, yes -- I said so when I offered it. Silly, no. It is, of course, wildy improbable that a scenario would play out exactly like that -- but it is theorhetically possible. It’s a good test for your standard -- that a track can only banish someone with proof of criminal activity.

In the scenario, the “darkening” of a horse’s form is probably the only spot along the trail where an illegality could be alleged or proven. But, as I said, there are ways that a trainer could get a horse to run at less than optimum performance without resorting to anything illegal.

So, in the end, only the betting records would attest to the “hanky-panky”. But any reasonable person could look at those betting records and know something was going on. Something that was, essentially, cheating other players.

Your attitude seems to be: Eh, if they didn't break the law, just let it go...

On the other hand, I think those types of actions would be detrimental to the game and I want the authorities to be pro-active in looking for it and acting to stop it.

[David-LV]

Huh? Where are you getting these numbers from? 500-1000? When? During a blizzard?

The real numbers are:

Wed-Apr 16----2281
Thu-Apr 17----2107
Fri--Apr 18----2267
Sat-Apr 19----4196
Sun-Apr 20---3476

These numbers are pretty dismal when you consider that they have over 20 million plus people to draw from in New York and the surrounding area.

Yes, NYRA has done nothing in the way of marketing to try and improve these numbers.

_______
David

[Marlin]

Relax. All this can be traced back to one thing. The TRPB. They are attempting to justify their place in the world (and their paycheck). It's not NYRA. Hell, all they did was take stalls. I don't blame the TRPB. If I was getting free money I would act like I was doing something. "Who will monitor the monitors?" Doesn't NY already have a commision in place? "Who are these guys?"

[PaceAdvantage]

The real numbers are:

Wed-Apr 16----2281
Thu-Apr 17----2107
Fri--Apr 18----2267
Sat-Apr 19----4196
Sun-Apr 20---3476So why did you post 500-1000? Useless, unreliable information is not the hallmark of a valued contributor.

[Marlin]

The real numbers are:

Wed-Apr 16----2281
Thu-Apr 17----2107
Fri--Apr 18----2267
Sat-Apr 19----4196
Sun-Apr 20---3476
Are those the numbers for Fonner Park?

[David-LV]

So why did you post 500-1000? Useless, unreliable information is not the hallmark of a valued contributor.


Sorry, I should have checked the facts first, but is their any major sport in the New York area that draws less then racing?

It is the fault of non-marketing your product for years and years.

This did not happen overnight.

_______
David

[JustRalph]

wouldn't it be a product of the fact you can bet on Aqu at the OTB's ?

You don't need to come to the track.

[David-LV]

wouldn't it be a product of the fact you can bet on Aqu at the OTB's ?

You don't need to come to the track.

They had OTB's when they were drawing crowds of over 20,000.

I know because I was there in person daily.

NYRA has done nothing except to go bankrupted.

It is very simple, in college they call it marketing 101.

_________
David

[Tom]

Sorry, I should have checked the facts first, but is their any major sport in the New York area that draws less then racing?

It is the fault of non-marketing your product for years and years.

This did not happen overnight.

_______
David

Is there any other sport that runs 5 days a week year round?

[saratoga guy]

They had OTB's when they were drawing crowds of over 20,000.

I know because I was there in person daily.

NYRA has done nothing except to go bankrupted.

It is very simple, in college they call it marketing 101.

_________
David

In the early days of the NY OTBs people were still in the habit of going to the track.

Also, parlors only featured race calls [if that!] for a long time -- no video.

Over thirty years it's hard to combat attendance drain by attracting customers to the track while there is an OTB four blocks away that is showing live race video. Eventually the trip to the OTB becomes in-grained.

I've said it before, I'm not thrilled with the marketing efforts of the entire industry -- but to suggest that some magic wand of "marketing 101" will bring back crowds of 20,000 on a regular basis seems far-fetched.

Also worth noting: In those early days of OTB there were no Atlantic City casinos. No Mohegan Sun. No slots at Yonkers. Etc etc etc...

[David-LV]

In the early days of the NY OTBs people were still in the habit of going to the track.

Also, parlors only featured race calls [if that!] for a long time -- no video.

Over thirty years it's hard to combat attendance drain by attracting customers to the track while there is an OTB four blocks away that is showing live race video. Eventually the trip to the OTB becomes in-grained.

I've said it before, I'm not thrilled with the marketing efforts of the entire industry -- but to suggest that some magic wand of "marketing 101" will bring back crowds of 20,000 on a regular basis seems far-fetched.

Also worth noting: In those early days of OTB there were no Atlantic City casinos. No Mohegan Sun. No slots at Yonkers. Etc etc etc...


One thing is for sure is that NYRA has not and will not even entertain the idea of making any effort at all.

The only effort that we know for sure that they will make is that they will pick up their checks weekly.

When it comes to the fans, ZERO.

Why is it that all the competition that you mention is successful, but not NYRA?

_____
David

[saratoga guy]

One thing is for sure is that NYRA has not and will not even entertain the idea of making any effort at all.

I'll ask a similar question to one I asked earlier -- which track management in the country can you point to that is offering what you consider superior customer service? And how is it different from NY?

When it comes to the fans, ZERO.

Again, I'm not sure what you're looking for but... Low takeout rates [comparatively speaking]. Free race replays [via the internet]. Reasonable admission and seating prices.

There are certainly things that NYRA does or offers that are fan-friendly.

On the other hand, I don't think their customer service is superior -- but I really haven't found any track to be at a level that would make me swoon with appreciation. It's an industry-wide problem, not just NYRA's.

Why is it that all the competition that you mention is successful, but not NYRA?

Why are casinos and slot palaces successful? Some of it has to do with the psyche of the players I suppose -- an analysis I can't provide. But much of it has to do with government treating those gambling entities much differently -- and, one could argue, much better than racing.

For instance, while casinos "comp" guests many items, NY law prevents NYRA from handing out free passes.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry, I should have checked the facts first, but is their any major sport in the New York area that draws less then racing?

It is the fault of non-marketing your product for years and years.

This did not happen overnight.

_______
DavidDo the Islanders, Mets, Yankees, Jets, Giants, Knicks, Nets or Rangers play 250 home games every year? If they did, I betcha attendance would decline in a major way.....

Then you add OTB (previously mentioned), the Internet, plus many more LEGAL wagering opportunities when compared to the days when 20,000 would show up on a non-event day at the track.

Then, let's not forget, it's tough to run a marketing department when all your (limited) resources are being used to fight off a witch hunt designed to bring the NYRA to its knees.

Now that the NYRA is slowly clawing its way out of the morass of a politically induced assassination attempt, perhaps it can begin to refocus more on marketing instead of survival.

[jonnielu]

Well said.

Bravo. I hope everyone on this forum starts to realize what I've been saying about NYRA.

Remember, this was NYRA, not the NYS racing and wagering board's decision.
They CONTINUE to be a "rich boy" club that want's to operate and make decisions on people's livelyhood as THEY see fit with NO accountabliliy.
They need SERIOUS oversight.
If Greg MAtties sues, and wins a 10 million $$ judgement against NYRA, NYRA just hands the bill to the taxpayers of the state of NY.
No accountability.

ARE YOU GETTING WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING .....MR P.A. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An expectation that the average NY taxpayer might realize something could be a bit unrealistic.

jdl

[slewis]

Do the Islanders, Mets, Yankees, Jets, Giants, Knicks, Nets or Rangers play 250 home games every year? If they did, I betcha attendance would decline in a major way.....

Then you add OTB (previously mentioned), the Internet, plus many more LEGAL wagering opportunities when compared to the days when 20,000 would show up on a non-event day at the track.

Then, let's not forget, it's tough to run a marketing department when all your (limited) resources are being used to fight off a witch hunt designed to bring the NYRA to its knees.

Now that the NYRA is slowly clawing its way out of the morass of a politically induced assassination attempt, perhaps it can begin to refocus more on marketing instead of survival.

I cant help but stick my two cents in here.
Let me point some things out:
As far as the customer service at NYRA, for the most part, they are THE most efficient and friendliest group in the NYRA organization.
Belmont opens next week. For anyone who goes, walk into customer service in the lobby of the clubhouse and ask, just ask if there's anything you need,
they will try like hell to help you.
UNFORTUNETLY, they often get little cooperation from other departments.
For example...
I've complained that the seating outside (at Belmont) has bird shit all over it and should be cleaned for patrons each racing day. They told the person in charge but it RARELY gets done. This, while I see this jerk walk around in a suit with a walkie-talkie looking important. I'd like to rub his face in the shit.
It's not unusual to see him lerking in the paddock looking at horses too, fantasizing about being some hot shot owner. Typical management zero.
Here's another.... The ENTIRE meet from Jan 1 till now at Aqueduct, first one, now two of the replay TV screens was either missing or not working. On Weekends there's a line 3 deep to watch replays.
Personally,I dont need to watch them, I have access to all the replays at home, but, HOW F-IN hard is it to replace 2 or 3 monitors??? Since JANUARY!!!
Next, several of the simulcast TV's have been missing or broke since JAN !!!
I swear I was going to take pictures of this shit and post them EACH and every day to show what a great job NYRA is doing, but I figured why bother.
But, I invite anyone to head over to the Big A before closing day and call my bluff. Someone tell Haywood Circuit City is having a sale on TV's with no interest till 2009!!
As far as NYRA trying to get new blood in, that's not an easy task for even the most clever marketing people in the world. I wouldn't know where to start, but I started going to the track when I was 16 with my friends.
We all know there are young people who will be attracted to the excitment of racing.
Back in the late 70's NYRA had concerts in the park after the last race and only jacked up the price to see the event if you came AFTER 3pm, thus exposing young people to the racing prior to the concert and hopefully getting new fans. I'm not suggesting that again, I dont know whether or not it worked but at least they TRIED something.
If this group tries NOTHING and sits on their laurels while waiting for slot money to start pouring in (a "gift" which I've said the track, being that the state owns the land should get VERY LITTLE of if any, and I'm in the racing business!) then everyone on this forum can maybe agree (somewhat) about NYRA's future.

[PaceAdvantage]

My two cents:

I've been going to Belmont for 22 years, and I sit in the stands (usually Grandstand, second floor), and I can't recall a time where I've seen bird shit all over the seats, so much so that I actually paid it a second thought.

Now FOOTPRINTS, that's another story....people like to climb over the seats, and footprints get to be a pain....at least for me....

[slewis]

My two cents:

I've been going to Belmont for 22 years, and I sit in the stands (usually Grandstand, second floor), and I can't recall a time where I've seen bird shit all over the seats, so much so that I actually paid it a second thought.

Now FOOTPRINTS, that's another story....people like to climb over the seats, and footprints get to be a pain....at least for me....

I should have clarified my "BS" as in bird shit. I meant in the rear park and picnik area and clubhouse patio area. As far as the track seating facing the track, there are so many seats to choose from that you can usually find a clean one (relatively)and I wouldn't expect those seats cleaned each racing day since they are usually less then 5% filled (except huge race days). But the park and patio area has people in those seats ALL day every day.
But this supervisor is too busy playing "horse owner".
And the day after it rains.. get some workers out there with paper towels to dry them off so your patrons can sit down and enjoy RACING at beautiful Belmont. This is BASIC MAINTENANCE.
Leave the horse watching to us, or, quit your job at NYRA and try to make a living in the business. He sure has spent lots of time looking at horses to have learned something by now.

[ryesteve]

My two cents:

I've been going to Belmont for 22 years, and I sit in the stands (usually Grandstand, second floor), and I can't recall a time where I've seen bird shit all over the seats, so much so that I actually paid it a second thought.
Those seats are covered, so it's not really an issue. But out back, especially the benches under trees, it's a different story...

[PaceAdvantage]

Ahhh....I see what you two are getting at now....I agree 100%

"Mr. Hayward, clean down those seats!" (said in my best Ronald Reagan)

[Fastracehorse]

i already mentioned that according to the web site "Left at the Gate"
that Matties, G sued NYRA and got his stall space back

to re-hash the other thread

my point was that the guy in the video did not say anything really bright. some have said why should he? i say speak intelligent in a veiled sense

also, i didn't say he made or didn't make $, but if he did it may have been on his bros horse, which is 'capping, sort of

and then i said, 'why are we so quick to put people on pedestals'

the latter a fair question


fffastt

[Saratoga_Mike]

i already mentioned that according to the web site "Left at the Gate"
that Matties, G sued NYRA and got his stall space back

to re-hash the other thread

my point was that the guy in the video did not say anything really bright. some have said why should he? i say speak intelligent in a veiled sense

also, i didn't say he made or didn't make $, but if he did it may have been on his bros horse, which is 'capping, sort of

and then i said, 'why are we so quick to put people on pedestals'

the latter a fair question


fffastt

Well we're lucky you found this more than 2-yr-old thread to post this important information.

[sonnyp]

nobody could classify gregg as" prolific" as far as training horses. it would be a stretch to even label his record at the major tracks as even being any kind of a factor.

gregg might race a horse once every three weeks. his brothers are pounding it out 24/7 from coast to coast...p6's, p4's, p'3's you name it.

i would just like to have a fraction of the money they've bet and lost on the "inside info" they garnered on horses gregg sent out with NO chance of winning. they do this because they are truly a tight knit family, and want to root for their brother's success. gregg has been a chink in their armor. their loyalty to gregg is completely out of character to the rest of their approach, but he's their brother and they support him 100%.

posters her talk about inside info. i trained 20 plus years and been around tracks my whole life. inside info is an absolute joke. one could only wish to be able to be in the paddack and have the ability to "book" all the inside info from the owners, drivers, trainers and jocks. if you threw in the grooms and stablehands, one would be a truely wealthy person. the info coming out of the backstretch is a joke.

as far as nyra going after gregg, they got their stalls back and the whole thing turned out to be totally without merrit, a joke.

[PaceAdvantage]

gregg might race a horse once every three weeks. his brothers are pounding it out 24/7 from coast to coast...p6's, p4's, p'3's you name it.Great point. Pretty much closes the case on this silliness from FRH.

[Cardus]

Bonus points to the poster who remembered this thread from tttttttwwoo years ago.

[Stillriledup]

nobody could classify gregg as" prolific" as far as training horses. it would be a stretch to even label his record at the major tracks as even being any kind of a factor.

gregg might race a horse once every three weeks. his brothers are pounding it out 24/7 from coast to coast...p6's, p4's, p'3's you name it.

i would just like to have a fraction of the money they've bet and lost on the "inside info" they garnered on horses gregg sent out with NO chance of winning. they do this because they are truly a tight knit family, and want to root for their brother's success. gregg has been a chink in their armor. their loyalty to gregg is completely out of character to the rest of their approach, but he's their brother and they support him 100%.

posters her talk about inside info. i trained 20 plus years and been around tracks my whole life. inside info is an absolute joke. one could only wish to be able to be in the paddack and have the ability to "book" all the inside info from the owners, drivers, trainers and jocks. if you threw in the grooms and stablehands, one would be a truely wealthy person. the info coming out of the backstretch is a joke.

as far as nyra going after gregg, they got their stalls back and the whole thing turned out to be totally without merrit, a joke.


I agree with this, there's really no 'shortcut' to winning. There's really very little inside info that's valuable and the reason is that most inside info only concerns one particular horse...it doesnt take into account the competition. Its great to know a horse can 'run' but if you arent an expert on all the other runners, its not going to get you anywhere really.

[Bruddah]

You are correct, it is not a defense. It is a statement of fact. We don't know what was reported to them, so any commenting on why they did what they did is, in your words, BS.

Here's an opinion. If you don't like what NYRA does, don't play the tracks. Otherwise you are just another in a long line of hypocrites. I don't like the things that go on/have gone on at Philadelphia and Delaware. I don't bet the tracks. End of problem.

Thanks for supporting my decision to never play NYRA again. By the way, I came to that same conclusion 4 years ago. Sh*t, I love being ahead of the curve. :lol:

[OTM Al]

[/B]

Thanks for supporting my decision to never play NYRA again. By the way, I came to that same conclusion 4 years ago. Sh*t, I love being ahead of the curve. :lol:

Yeah, but it was only about 1 year "ahead" when I posted that originally. Still holds true though. Can't stand it when someone complains about a certain track ad nauseum and then turns around and asks me who I have in the next race there. Me, I learned how to play on those tracks, so that's what I play though I'm shifting to a lot more English tracks. Just enjoy them more than what's put on here.

[Fastracehorse]

Great point. Pretty much closes the case on this silliness from FRH.

was a very nice lil' cash monster

won twice easily at nice odds

that was inside info that was a 'joke' only if you had it

TOODRUNKTOOCALL, i believe was the horse's name

fffastt

[PaceAdvantage]

was a very nice lil' cash monster

won twice easily at nice odds

that was inside info that was a 'joke' only if you had it

TOODRUNKTOOCALL, i believe was the horse's name

fffasttCertainly enough to make a nice living and support a family...two wins at nice odds...you've cracked the code!

[Fastracehorse]

Certainly enough to make a nice living and support a family...two wins at nice odds...you've cracked the code!

i'm the one that said the above was unlikely, the only one so far, maybe not the only who thinks it

fffastt

[teddy]

Heres how its done.
you get a real runner in your barn
Run your horse twice at RD... up the track mdn special
Send him to CD.... automatic 100 to one...
Put your money in slowly thru the whole betting cycle by the time hes off you have 500 to win on him.

200 to place

Straight to the top, wins by 10

You walk with 30k to 50k.

Tax free... this actually happened. Have you ever noticed this pattern? Crap horse supposedly moves to tough circuit and blows them off...

[Robert Fischer]

... then when you get good, you start using "blind" horizontals with jackpot payouts.