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tone3
04-17-2008, 02:48 PM
Do the drivers scrutinize (handicap) the programs for each race they are in to see how they should run the horse they are driving?

Also forgive me I'm just learning, is there a legend or key someplace on this forum to explain some of the acronyms that are used here, for example nw2, nw3 used for class descriptions.

I'm going to Pocono downs Saturday to see some live racing, does anybody follow that track here?

Thanks

Ray2000
04-17-2008, 03:14 PM
Answer to the first question ... the good ones do.

This can help some on abbreviations:
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/services/pdfs/program.pdf

There's probably others here better suited for Pocono questions.

Good Luck at the races!

MiJan
04-17-2008, 03:34 PM
A great resource for anyone just starting is ustrotting.com.

Don't know of any drivers that go over the racing form prior to a race. Information for what the owner/trainer wants done isn't in there. And, there is much to be learned from gooms and workout people.

harcapper
04-17-2008, 04:58 PM
tone,

I dont know a single driver that does not look at a program before he or she drives. When it comes to the top drivers, they will normally have choices to make in races during the card after the draw. Some drivers are more loyal to a trainer where others will always take the horse they feel has the best chance to win.

Regarding how they should race a horse, the 1st time a driver is going to drive a horse the driver will spend some time with it's trainer to gather info. A top driver who drives regularly at a track makes it his business to know each horses strengths and weaknesses. In most cases, from then on the driver makes his or her decisions. If a trainer thinks his horse is sharp that night, he might make a comment like "he is good tonight" or "give him a chance". Other then that there is not much said as many drivers arrive just in time to hop on the bike as the horses leave the paddock.

After a race is when you find out what type of human being your driver is. I have had them throw the lines at me and say "dont put me back down on this one. Others will politely comment that he seems to be in over his head. And still others will comment on the horses performance and let you know what was wrong or right and go on to make suggestions on equipment or shoeing changes that might help.

Hope this answers your question.

Har

Do the drivers scrutinize (handicap) the programs for each race they are in to see how they should run the horse they are driving?

LottaKash
04-17-2008, 07:25 PM
Hey Tone, it appears that you are somewhat new to this sport of Harness Racing.....

So, I will post this link for you.....perhaps you can gain some new insights from reading further......

http://www.ustrotting.com/handicapping/betting/betting.cfm (http://www.ustrotting.com/handicapping/betting/betting.cfm)

There are a bunch of guys that post here, that I am learning to admire and respect, and I'm certain, along with myself, they would be more than happy to help you along........Ask questions, lots of them.......wherever, you are in all this, many of us once were....so fire away....

We need more new fans these days, and an informed bettor is one who will keep coming back......

Best to you Tone in your new adventure.....

LottaKash
04-17-2008, 07:49 PM
Tone, up until about 3-yrs ago, Pocono Downs was my home track, I used to live on Lake Wallenpaupack, about a 30 min. drive to the track.....

It used to be a very chalky type track, lots of low priced faves....so on many a night, I would sit all night without making a bet, after awhile if the Meadowlands or Dover Downs was not running, for simulcast, I wouldn't even go.....But in last couple of years, since Mohegan Sun built a casino on the grounds, the purse structure went up, and they are attracting a better and more diverse Driver and Trainer talent.....and there are some nice plays to be had.....

Right now I am wrapped up in some big home projects, and don't have have much time right now for other things....but, if I can get to it, I will look over the form, and see if I can't point you to a few possiblities......Perhaps some others might want to collaborate here as well, and we can send you off with more information than you have now....

I don't generally relish giving out my plays too much, as I am usually wrong 3 times out of 5 and I am almost strictly a spot player.......

If I come up with anything interesting, I will post to this thread.......

G.L.

tone3
04-17-2008, 11:10 PM
I really appreciate your thoughtful responses, insight, and offers to provide answers for my future questions.

I will check out the links provided and try to ask more educated questions in the future.

My "home track" is Tioga Downs my wife and I love to watch and bet the races. We are there everynight they have live racing. We live about 30 minutes away in Endicott, N.Y.

My plan for Saturday at Pocono is to take notes and try to relate to you guys how I saw and bet each race.

Thanks again all

LottaKash
04-18-2008, 02:57 AM
Hey Tone, ask any question.........all questions are good.....for years, I would always wonder about certain things, and boy, it would've been a lot easier if I had asked, and someone told me....maybe I would've saved a few bucks to boot.......

btw. I know Endicott somewhat, I used to have business dealings @ IBM........

Going up 17 to Cornell, and Rochester, I used to pass by Tioga, before they ran Trots, It was always kind of a shabby joint, and I always thought that, that little bull ring was kinda small for t-breds, and thought it would be perfect for trots........funny,now it is........from their website, it appears to have gone thru a nice transformation.........true ?......

stay tuned....

LottaKash
04-18-2008, 03:06 AM
:jump: Also Tone, proably most of the people kicking around the Harness Racing section...have been to this website, but, for those who haven't, there is a lot of good info........Here........

http://www.kimstarr.org/corner/archives.html (http://www.kimstarr.org/corner/archives.html)

Enjoy, :eek:

tone3
04-18-2008, 06:40 AM
Kash,

They demolished just about everything but the silo and put more than 30 million dollars into it. :D It's a beautiful facility it reopened in 2006. (It was a quarterhorse track in the late 70's) They run the horses Friday, Saturday, and Sunday 10 to 13 races a night. Most races will have at least 8 horses running.

Jeff Gural owns a big chunk of the track and because he is an avid harness racing man ( not so much a casino guy)this will keep the track going for awhile ...I hope anyway.

The building is setup in a way that the casino player can't help but notice when the horses are running. This I think helps increase the racing interest and maybe get some new racing fans.

The track ran a drivers challenge promotion last year that brought in the best drivers from the northeast that was impressive. I think Tetrick won it. The drivers were set up at a table before the racing started and had an autograpgh signing question and answers etc...:cool:

wilderness
04-18-2008, 08:04 AM
My "home track" is Tioga Downs my wife and I love to watch and bet the races. We are there everynight they have live racing. We live about 30 minutes away in Endicott, N.Y.

from Aug 4, 1927 Trotter & Pacer magazine:

Doane and Bert Abbe Smash Records at the Endicott Meet

L. S. Hadley's Three-Year-Old Breaks Half-Mile Track Mark - A. G. Lord's Pacer Lowers Record for Ideal Park Course
ENDICOTT, N. Y., JULY 26.

THE Orange County Circuit opened here this afternoon with a speed exhibition that makes it seem likely that 1927 will be the greatest year in the history of the noted organization. The feature of the day was the breaking of the Ideal Park track record, which had remained at the 2.05 mark set by Adioo Guy in 1920 despite the efforts of such stars as Anna Bradford's Girl, Kate Hal, Verlie Patchen and Symbol S. Forrest to lower it. But today Will Hodson drove Bert Abbe in 2.031/4, a sizable reduction of the record. Hodson was the driver who was also responsible for the former mark.

There were only four starters in the 2.10 pace but they were all of the top sort-Bert Abbe and his old Bay State rival, Carolyn Loganthe world's champion threc-year-old, Highland Scott, and Paleface, one of the sensations of the circuit three seasons back. Most of the horsemen picked Carolyn to beat Bert Abbe, as she had trimmed him in their last engagement at Springfield two weeks ago. Highland Scott also had his optimistic friends, who thought the four-year-old would be able to overcome his lameness enough to win.
When it came to the actual racing, however, there was little to it but Bert Abbe. Carolyn Logan drew the pole but Hodson got Bert away in front and pulled him in to the pole position without delay. Carolyn trailed with Highland Scott third. Britenfield made no move until the half, when he hustled his mare up and the pair moved away from Highland Scott and Paleface. They went the third quarter in :311/2 and the fourth in :291/2 with Bert Abbe doing everything his driver asked of him. Although -at the threequarters Highland Scott was nearly seven lengths behind the leaders, he paced the last quarter at a terrific rate to finish only a half length behind Carolyn Logan.

The second heat was much like the first, except that Highland Scott displaced Carolyn Logan as the chief contender. At the quarter, the half and the three-quarters Hodson was riding about two lengths ahead of Dickerson but again the Arden Homestead colt made a determined effort in the last quarter and be finished less than a length behind the winner, the last quarter having been paced in 293/4 seconds.

Before the third heat Owner A. G. Lord and Driver Hodson decided to send their winner after the Endicott track record. As the track today was not regarded as execeptionally fast few thought they had a chance to do it. Hodson had Bert going about as fast as they ever start when the word was given and the little pacer settled down to work as though he were having a workout. By the time the quarter was reached in :301/2 the leader was an estimated eight to ten lengths ahead of Highland Scott with Carolyn Logan still further back. He kept as big a gap open throughout the heat. The half was passed in 1.02 and the three-quarters in 1:331/4. Then the son of The Abbe gave an extraordinary exhibition of gameness by pacing the final quarter in 30 seconds with no other horse near him, the mile being in 2.031/4. This is not only the fastest mile paced over a half-mile track this year but only a handful of miles have been paced faster on the Grand Circuit.

Another $5000 stake, the 2.09 trot, stood next to the 2.10 pace in interest, although no extremely fast time was recorded. They went away in the first heat with Peter Bushkirk in the lead and the 17-yearold David C. on a break. Worthy Todd was in second, the remainder of the field strung Out behind. As they turned into the stretch the first time Hodson was trying to get Trumpet through to a front rank position and the noted gelding stepped into Worthy Todd's wheel. Rodney was tumbled out but stopped his mount after being dragged a few yards. Neither horse nor driver was injured and they started back in the second heat. Safely out ahead, the accident did not interfere, with Peter Bushkirk and he went on alone to the three-quarters where Hyde collared him with Bee Worthy. From there home it was a real contest, the quarter being stepped in :303/4, and Bee Worthy was the victor. Victor Frisco, the favorite before the start, finished a fair third, several lengths back.

There was a great deal of fussing before they got away the second heat, ten scores being required. If the idea was to tire Bee Worthy or make him jump it did not succeed, for he got off on top and managed to stay there throughout. Trumpet and Peter Bushkirk made him set a fairly stiff pace to the quarter, which was reached in :311/2, Trumpet gradually faded away but Peter hung on and even made Hyde use the whip rounding the last turn. At the finish Bee Worthy won handily, Peter Bushkirk second and the aged David C. third. The latter finished with a rush that made several younger and more highly regarded trotters curl up their toes. Oscawana made several bad breaks in this heat and got the flag.

Bee Worthy led again throughout the third mile with Peter Bushkirk second. They were at the threequarters in 1.391/2 but came the final quarter in :301/2 when Pitman shook his veteran up and forced Bee Worthy out. David C. again managed to beat the others for the show and was, in fact, well up at all portions of the mile.

The 2.18 trot was the only split-heat race of the day. First Choice rushed into the lead at the outset and kept that position to the finish. Spatfast challenged at the half and Prince O. at the threequarters, the latter forcing Dickerson's mount to trot the last quarter in :31 to win . Myra Harvester broke soon after the start, caught to be right behind the leaders at the half and again broke the second time up the backstretch.

Rodney had his mare in better control in the second and she took the lead from First Choice at once. The pair raced out ahead of the field. In the stretch Dickerson tried his utmost but The Harvester mare managed to outlast his pupil . The third heat was the same as the second with Dickerson again doing some bandy driving in the stretch, though to no avail. Prince O., after his appearance in the first heat, was not particularly prominent.

wilderness
04-18-2008, 08:06 AM
Endicott, N. Y. 1927; Part II

July 28
AFTER a day of inactivity due to rain, the Orange County Circuit meeting at Ideal Park resumed with another afternoon of record breaking. This time it was not only the track record, but the world mark that fell when Doane, the great three-year-old gelding from North Carolina, trotted in 2:073/4, the fastest mile any three-year-old trotter has ever made over a half-mile track, either in a race or against time.

Helter Skelter got a-way in front in the first heat of the three-year-old event with Doane and Radium right behind. Going around the turn Becker got his youngster in the lead. They reached the half in 1:04 and the three-quarters in 1:36. Pitman started a drive with Radium, which was weathering the fast pace very well, and threatened to furnish real opposition in the stretch. About midway of the stretch Doane suddenly broke but Becker got him in hand quickly and he beat Radium by a head in 2:073/4, the fastest mile ever trotted by a threeyear-old over a twice around. Radium must have trotted the mile nearly as fast as he was right there at the finish and, in fact, it is likely that all of the contestants went close to the 2:10 mark or better.
Doane won as he liked in the second heat the time 2:10. Helter Skelter moved up to second at the word and maintained that position throughout the mile. The last quarter was in 31 seconds and the champion did it easily and made no mistakes. Radium was a good third.

Plucky was favored to win the two-year-old trot but it was a daughter of Peter Volo, Florence McGill, that won the race. Florence is a full sister to the sensational three-year-old of last year, Ellie Trabue, and she is certainly a relative to be proud of. The youngsters scored ten times before they got away in the first heat and developed enough lather between them to shave a regiment. Miss Eclipse got away ahead and led to the half in 1 :051/2 where Plucky drew tip on even terms. As they turned into the backstretch the second time Miss Eclipse went ahead a little, though Kirby kept Plucky after her out in second horse place. As they turned into the stretch Juanita Watts came from nowhere apparently to take the lead from Miss Eclipse. The Atlantic Express filly dropped still further back as both Beautiful Peter and Plucky passed her on their way to the wire. Plucky was outtrotting them all from the short distance home, but barely missed winning at the finish. Only a nose separated any of the three leaders and Plucky had been overhauling them so rapidly that the crowd thought he won and gave vent to their disapproval when the judges placed the Elmira colt third and gave the beat to Juanita Watts.

So far Florence McGill hasn't appeared in our story, except as a starter. It was different in the second heat when the filly led them home. Juanita Watts set the pace to the half where she made a bad break and was out of it. Immediately both Miss Eclipse and Florence McGill started a battle for the lead with Plucky trailing them. On the backstretch Whitney bustled Florence past the black filly and led from then to the wire. Again in the stretch Plucky started coming like a bullet but his drive was too late. Had the mile been 50 feet longer he would undoubtedly have won, but Florence McGill got the decision clearly at the wire.

The Orange County Circuit has the sensible rule that bars all but heat winners for the third heat of two-in-three events so only Florence McGill and Juanita Watts started back. Florence got off ahead and was never caught. Squires trailed with Juanita Watts to the threequarters but when he started to urge the filly around the last turn she broke and Florence won in a walkaway.
The 2:15 pace furnished the occasion for the eighth straight victory for Millie W., but not until her ancient rival, Wayne Hal, had given her a taste of temporary defeat. McGrath got Wayne away in front and took him to the quarter in :30112, to the half in 1 :03 and the three-quarters in 1:361/2, with Millie W. hanging on desperately. Hodson made his first try the second time up the backstretch but the mare couldn't make it. In the stretch the field started to overtake the duelists and Hodson had to use the whip on Millie to keep her among those finishing in the money positions. As it was All Bingen took the place and Millie just beat Maud Grattan for show position.

If anyone thought that settled Millie's hash they were mistaken for the WyDryad mare came back to win the next two heats and the race. Wayne Hal again set the early pace in the second heat but only for an eighth-mile and at the quarter Hodson had A. G. Lord's mare a half-length ahead. McGrath made his try with Wayne the second time up the backstretch and kept on trying all the way home. He lost by a neck at the finish. Millie W. wasn't headed or even bothered in the last heat. Wayne Hal got away poorly and soon found himself in a pocket, from which lie was unable to emerge in time to offer any threat. Belle McKlyo made a short and ineffectual bid for the lead at the half but aside from that Millie W. was in no danger. All Bingen got the place from Maud Grattan.

The 2:12 trot went to four heats before Senator Stout won. It took 18 starts to get them away in the first heat and when they did start it was in an indefinite sort of mass . Lyman Brusie got Viola Sunshine out of the bunch by the time they hit the turn and was an open length ahead of Prince Charming turning up the backstretch. Senator Stout moved up and was second at the half with Tippie Volo third. During the last half Tippie Volo got out and furnished the chief competition to her stablemate in the stretch with Blackstone Dillon coming on to get the show position.

Viola Sunshine got off to a splendid lead in the second and was ahead when they turned into the homestretch for the final brush to the wire. Blackstone Dillon suddenly appeared out of the trailing field and started a bid for first which was successful when Viola suddenly broke in the middle of the stretch. Again at the beginning of-the third mile Viola Sunshine started off ahead but Smith soon overhauled her with Blackstone Dillon. just at the half Harvey Ernest showed unusual activity with Hollyrood March and he got into the lead on the third turn. Very shortly Blackstone regained his lead while Tippie Volo came up to second. Near the three-quarters Prince Charming made a bid. Coming up the stretch all the leaders were patently tired and Pitman brought the fresher Senator Stout through to win. The Senator I s staying powers were well established in the fourth heat when he led from start to finish. Viola Sunshine and Blackstone Dillon both tried hard but neither had the reserve force necessary to win. Viola broke on the last turn while Blackstone came on to get the place.

ENDICOTT, N. Y., July 29.
THE Ideal Park meeting was cut short after four heats had been raced this afternoon. In order not to delay the shipment of the stables the management agreed to call all three events finished and to pay the horses off as they stood in the summary.

One race, the $5,000 2:15 trot, got in two heats which were enough to show conclusively who the winner would have been in any event. Jeritza was much the best of the field. She led all the way in the first heat. Hollyrood Mark offered some opposition but nothing to make Rodney do anything but sit there and drive. They went to the half in only 1:05 but came the last half in 1 :023/4 and the last quarter in :301/2. The second time down the backstretch Dean Etawah started a rapid going fight from the rear and had passed all but the pacemaking mare when he broke and went back to last. Watson B. Jr., too, was coming very nicely in the stretch when he broke.

In the second heat it was Jeritza one and Hollyrood Mark two about all the way. Peter Leonard came along on the outside at the half but was unable to stand the gaff and dropped back. In the stretch both Dean Etawah and Watson B. Jr. made drives but as before both broke.

Sister Worthy won the only heat in the 2:21 trot. The mare, driven by Secretary W. L. Snow, went right out at the start and led to the half, where Rozeta passed her. Snow pulled in behind and trailed to the head of the stretch. There Sister Worthy pulled out and won, outtrotting the Atlantic Express mare through the stretch.

With Jean Grattan lame and various things having interfered with other eligible starters, only two pacers appeared for the 2:05 class. Billy D. was the winner, beating Lady Patch. Billy led from soon after the start and didn't have to use all of his famous speed to beat the mare through the stretch.

Rodney Leads at Endicott
AUBREY S. RODNEY of Springfield, Mass., was the leading driver at the opening meeting of the Orange County Circuit at Endicott, scoring 25 points by winning two races and getting a second. C. Earl Pitman, the Trenton, N. J., teamster, was second with 23 points and Will Hodson third with 20. McGrath, Britenfield, Snow and Hyde were the other drivers to make good showings, Rodney and Hodson were the only drivers to win more than one race. Following is the complete point score of the Endicott meeting, with ten points allotted to a first, five to a second, three to a third and four to a fourth.

LottaKash
04-18-2008, 10:58 AM
Hey Don, thx for the trip down memory lane, I'm on the oldish side, but those were a liitle before my time.....or maybe, because I am old, I just can't remember....haha

And thx Tone, for the info on the rebuild.......


best,

wilderness
04-18-2008, 11:28 AM
These were more for "tone3" than yourself, since he resides in Endicott, which likley doesn't have racing today.

Orange County NY at one time had an entire circuit of 4-6 tracks and that's excluding any tracks that may have been utilized for non-sanctioned-winter-ice racing.

As an aside, I have many, many items of early PA racing, however few email addresses in my immense book for contacts.
It's a day-night difference to send on-topic-items to regional groups when each periodical is completed as opposed to digging through hordes of archive issues looking for topics, with the latter being done primarliy on a fee-basis.

tone3
04-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Wow I didn't know about the harness racing at the old Ideal Park. I know EJ's the old shoe factory which the town was named after sponsored many area events for their employees.

Interesting articles. Thanks

LottaKash
04-18-2008, 11:45 AM
Btw.......Wilderness, love your avatar.....the Harness Driver with the Old Silk Cap......cool.....


best,

wilderness
04-18-2008, 12:12 PM
from Aug 4, 1927 Trotter & Pacer magazine:

Doane and Bert Abbe Smash Records at the Endicott Meet

<snip>



Some time back these was a thread opened in this forum regarding breeding to which nobody really responded.

Bert Abbe is an interesting topic of breeding.

BA, sired a son (Gene Abbe) when he was 22YO (likely Bert Abbe's most successful son.

Gene Abbe carried on his sires tradion of very aged sire-success when he sired Big Towner while Gene Abbe was 30YO.

The mares used in the matings which resulted in Gene Abbe and Big Towner were older as well (believe their late teens.)

The Gene Abbe and Big Towner lines were "sort of" considered out-crosses in breeding because so much time had traversed in bloodlines and other sires from those earlier periods were ling gone.

BTW, Gene Abbe stood initially in Ohio. Eddie Cobb was a partner in the farm that stood him (name escapes me), later, Gene Abbe moved to Washington Court House, Ohio and the Fair Chance Farm.

Ray2000
04-19-2008, 06:16 AM
Tone3

Good Luck at Pocono's matinee!

Here's some Exactas, Playing P1, top and bottom with P2 and P3, 4 tickets

R1....2/7,5...Levitys Pride 9/2..Jaguar 6/1..Springboard 20/1
R5....4/6,3...Jellis As Hecht 8/1..Beach Romance N 3/1..Bullvilleintherain 6/1
R9....3/4,5...Sahara Hall 3/1..Bettor Watch Him 4/1..Panderosa Pine 12/1
R11...8/9,1...Ridgeline 7/2..Lindy'S Bandit 8/1..Honest Lawyer 6/1

I always like playing OPM;)

tone3
04-19-2008, 08:32 AM
Thanks, Ray I will certainly take a look at them.;)

Not sure what OPM means:confused:

Are you looking at the entries alone from the web site?

Is the full program listed somewhere that I could look at before I get to the track?

TIA

Ray2000
04-19-2008, 08:47 AM
OPB means Other Peoples Money:)

I subscribe to Trackmasters past perfomance programs and handicap from them.

They charge $1.50 for a single program.

http://www.trackmaster.com/harness/hpp.htm

Some Canadian tracks give away free programs on the web.

I don't know of any US tracks that do.

Again, best of luck!

harcapper
04-19-2008, 08:48 AM
Tone,

Send me your email and I will send you pps.

Har

Thanks, Ray I will certainly take a look at them.;)

Not sure what OPM means:confused:

Are you looking at the entries alone from the web site?

Is the full program listed somewhere that I could look at before I get to the track?

TIA

tone3
04-19-2008, 10:05 AM
Thanks Ray
I usually do better investing other peoples money also, I'm more objective and not as emotional.

Har
I PM'd my email address to you did you get it?

harcapper
04-19-2008, 10:09 AM
tone,

condensed and 10 line pp's are in your mailbox.

Har

tone3
04-19-2008, 10:30 AM
Har,

Not sure I received it could you try again, Thanks
Was it sent to the email address I PM'd to you?

LottaKash
04-19-2008, 10:59 AM
Hey Tone3, sorry I couldn't have been much help to you this day,for your excellent adventure to Pcd.....too wrapped up with my projects never had to time to peruse the Downs.......but, after reading the previous posts, I think you are in good hands.......At least you'll be better informed, than you were.......Goodluck today........

best,

tone3
04-19-2008, 11:14 AM
Kash,

No problem, getting ready to leave soon. Wow it's going to be a hot day at the track 80+ degrees and sunny. (Maybe hot hitting some exactas too;) )

LottaKash
04-19-2008, 11:21 AM
Kash,

No problem, getting ready to leave soon. Wow it's going to be a hot day at the track 80+ degrees and sunny. (Maybe hot hitting some exactas too;) )

Tone, Jealous, I always loved that place, miss it......If the ponies don't do anything for you today....You always got the slots !.......

Very Good LUCK.......:lol:

best,