Ragozin Sheets

[cosmo96]

I usually don't tout handicapping methods, but I've had so much success with The Sheets, for me they are far and away the best. On Friday 4-11 I kicked ass at Gulfstream. Likewise, at Keenland Saturday 4-12. I've tried everything with some success, but Ragozin rocks. $$$$$$$$$$

[Indulto]

I usually don't tout handicapping methods, but I've had so much success with The Sheets, for me they are far and away the best. On Friday 4-11 I kicked ass at Gulfstream. Likewise, at Keenland Saturday 4-12. I've tried everything with some success, but Ragozin rocks. $$$$$$$$$$How long have you been using them and what product(s), if any, did you use prior to the SHEETS?

[cosmo96]

I've used all Brisnet products, Throug-o-graph, formulator, all equibase products, house handicappers. I forget the name, but the one with the robot. I think it is called HGR? I've used the Sheets for over a year. It took me a while to catch on, but now I'm doing great. I cha-ching at the betting window.

[Indulto]

I've used all Brisnet products, Throug-o-graph, formulator, all equibase products, house handicappers. I forget the name, but the one with the robot. I think it is called HGR? I've used the Sheets for over a year. It took me a while to catch on, but now I'm doing great. I cha-ching at the betting window.Not everyone is able to use the SHEETS effectively. Is your approach pattern-based, number-based, some combination, etc. How do you determine value? How is it different for you from the Thorograph product? What made you give it a try? Did you learn on your own or were you mentored by an existing SHEETS user?

[magwell]

I usually don't tout handicapping methods, but I've had so much success with The Sheets, for me they are far and away the best. On Friday 4-11 I kicked ass at Gulfstream. Likewise, at Keenland Saturday 4-12. I've tried everything with some success, but Ragozin rocks. $$$$$$$$$$ I must agree, they are the missing link for me, makes it possible to see the real contenders and project the direction the horses are going,... forward or if they hit the wall..... a must for grass races...projection is the key for me, along with paddock and post parade observation it all comes together and also a little luck ;) of course......

[cosmo96]

It is interesting how I discovered The Sheets. I was at Churchill and did not have any races handicapped. I wanted more than a computer-generated handicap, so I talked to a lady who sold picks, forms, programs, etc. She recommended The Sheets. She said her boyfriend made a lot of money with them. So, I bought them for $35.00. I could not figure them out, and they would not give me my money back, because I opened them. But, one of the workers gave me a brief lesson. Actually, he showed me the wrong way which was averaging, be that as it may, I was successful for a while. Then it was a bummer. But, I was interested, so I read all the literature, bought the tapes. I had a learning curve, but now, I am cha-ching at the window.

My system is that I take the lowest number of the last three races, add a number depending on age or weight. Most important I check the pattern. I go with the best pattern and the lowest number. I play a lot of exactas. I pick four horses per race, often there is a tie, and then I go for the best price. I pay attention to tops. I may have a top in my exacta, but usually not to win. I look for good horses that have had good numbers, but the last race was bad. Often there is a rebound. Horses that have had a long lay-off then have one decent race work for me.

Sometimes my picks are way off base with DRF, house handicappers and morning line, but I’m cashing tickets. The Ragozin Sheets have a learning curve. You need a fast laser printer. I’ve tried Thorograph, but Ragozin works best for me. I live in southern Ohio, few people in my area have heard of The Sheets. That makes me somewhat unique. Cha-ching.

[Gibbon]

I live in southern Ohio PA check IP address - I did not approve this thread.
This is all I need yet more 'puter capper mafia hate mail.






_____________________________
This is really a lovely horse and I speak from personal experience since I once mounted her mother. ~ Ted Walsh

[JustRalph]

Xenia, Southern Ohio? Come on Cosmo...........head down to Portsmouth and see how many have heard of the sheets? :lol: :lol:

[Gibbon]

Cosmo,

HTR, an application often touted here, does have sheet style figs plotted {sort of} on a graph.
HTR uses Jim Cramer's speed figs which are consistent from track to track. I use them in addition to other tools.
If you're only using one data set I have encountered difficulties with product bias and general philosophical flaws. Helps to consult a second opinion. Good hunting.






____________________________________
Gambling: The sure way of getting nothing from something.

[cosmo96]

There are many good horseplayers/handicappers in the Dayton/Cincinnati area, but none that I know of use or have heard of The Sheets.

[cosmo96]

I have used and combined multible sources. But, I think there is such a thing as over handicapping. Besides, it's expensive. But, I appreciate the advice. Handicapping is complicated, and to be sucessful one has to have an open mind. Thanks for the advice, Gibbon.

[cosmo96]

Hi Just Ralph,

If you are ever going to River Downs, Beaulah, or Turfway let me know. I would like to meet you.

[NYPlayer]

...My system is that I take the lowest number of the last three races, add a number depending on age or weight. Most important I check the pattern. I go with the best pattern and the lowest number. I play a lot of exactas. I pick four horses per race, often there is a tie, and then I go for the best price. I pay attention to tops. I may have a top in my exacta, but usually not to win. I look for good horses that have had good numbers, but the last race was bad. Often there is a rebound. Horses that have had a long lay-off then have one decent race work for me.

Sometimes my picks are way off base with DRF, house handicappers and morning line, but I’m cashing tickets. The Ragozin Sheets have a learning curve...




I share your enthusiasm. I find that with The Sheets, I'm able to pick horses with good odds that routinely run in the money. In reading your posts here, I remembered seeing some of your posts on the The Sheets board a while back. Congratulations on getting so far ahead on the learning curve.

My own approach is very pattern intensive, but Ragozin has already demonstrated that a mechanical system using The Sheets could generate profit by considering only the last three numbers. I've never tried them this way, probably because I'd get bored pretty quickly. I may try it out this summer though.

Good luck.

[garyoz]

There are many good horseplayers/handicappers in the Dayton/Cincinnati area, but none that I know of use or have heard of The Sheets.

LOL!!

[Dave Schwartz]

I have used and combined multible sources. But, I think there is such a thing as over handicapping. Besides, it's expensive. But, I appreciate the advice. Handicapping is complicated, and to be sucessful one has to have an open mind. Thanks for the advice, Gibbon.


Let me get this straight... a Sheets player says that other sources are expensive?

Now, I understand the value of having the best tools, even if they are expensive. But... it would seem that you could add 3 or 4 other products and not raise your cost by more than 20% or so.

Or have the Sheets dropped in price?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Imriledup]

i used to use T-Graph because they were (or are) cheaper than Rag, but i don't use them anymore because i don't bet enough money to make it worth it. I think you need to bet at least 10k per day to make them worth the 30 dollars. That 30 bucks adds up, it just cuts into your bottom line.

[JustRalph]

Hi Just Ralph,

If you are ever going to River Downs, Beaulah, or Turfway let me know. I would like to meet you.

I will be at Keeneland on the 24th and 25th with Billw and a few others.

[cj]

I'm curious how the Sheets handle Keeneland, where being wide and losing ground is obviously much better than being inside.

[Grits]

I'm curious how the Sheets handle Keeneland, where being wide and losing ground is obviously much better than being inside.

Winner after winner has come wide.

CJ, I've been wanting to ask you, how is your figure making for Keeneland going? Is this surface/track getting any easier, or is it more difficult than last October?

[cj]

I'm not having any trouble with Keeneland, pretty straight forward. The problem has never really been making figures, but applying them to later races on other surfaces. I think I've gotten a lot better at that too.

[George Sands]

I'm curious how the Sheets handle Keeneland, where being wide and losing ground is obviously much better than being inside.

Thoro-Graph and Ragozin have websites, CJ. So you can satisfy your curiosity by asking them your question, and asking follow-up questions as you please. I'll be looking forward to the exchanges.

[john del riccio]

I'm not having any trouble with Keeneland, pretty straight forward. The problem has never really been making figures, but applying them to later races on other surfaces. I think I've gotten a lot better at that too.

This is the basic funadanetal issue that i have always seen with the TG/RAG approach. kee isnt the only place where the best part of the track is off the rail. BEL comes to mind for example.


john

[George Sands]

This is the basic funadanetal issue that i have always seen with the TG/RAG approach. kee isnt the only place where the best part of the track is off the rail. BEL comes to mind for example.

Same goes for you, John. I've seen your posts on the Thoro-Graph board. Why not make a post there about this subject, and then see the argument through? Nothing wrong with you and CJ making your points here, of course, but I think it would be fruitful if you made them there, too. And I'm certainly not trying to pick on either of you. Your points are valid. But it gets kind of frustrating--watching these discussions take place where the people who make sheet figures probably won't see them. In addition, I have a question: How do your figures handle horses who run wide on tracks where racing wide hurts?

[john del riccio]

Same goes for you, John. I've seen your posts on the Thoro-Graph board. Why not make a post there about this subject, and then see the argument through? Nothing wrong with you and CJ making your points here, of course, but I think it would be fruitful if you made them there, too. And I'm certainly not trying to pick on either of you. Your points are valid. But it gets kind of frustrating--watching these discussions take place where the people who make sheet figures probably won't see them. In addition, I have a question: How do your figures handle horses who run wide on tracks where racing wide hurts?

George,


Its been a long long time since I posted anything on the TG board. I'm sure if you go check, you'll see that is true. There are times when going wide is a chosen path and when its not chosen (ie racing luck). I do not take going wide into account when making figures. Henry didn't and I don't. If I think a horse deserves extra credit for going wide, I simply put a + next to his/her rating.

I am much more of a pace guy than a trip guy anyway. Horses that ALWAYS go wide due to their running style should also be taken into account.

John

[njcurveball]

Thoro-Graph and Ragozin have websites.

I bet there are political websites, sports websites, vendor websites, etc.

The reason everyone comes here is that we do not like to visit 10 or 12 websites every day.

[George Sands]

I bet there are political websites, sports websites, vendor websites, etc.
The reason everyone comes here is that we do not like to visit 10 or 12 websites every day.

You know the reason EVERYONE comes here? Very impressive. I'm going to have to start paying more attention to your posts. All kidding aside, I think a case can be made for visiting a particular website when you have just made a post specifically saying that you are "curious" about how the people on that website handle something. Would you disagree?

[George Sands]

Its been a long long time since I posted anything on the TG board. I'm sure if you go check, you'll see that is true. There are times when going wide is a chosen path and when its not chosen (ie racing luck). I do not take going wide into account when making figures. Henry didn't and I don't. If I think a horse deserves extra credit for going wide, I simply put a + next to his/her rating.
I am much more of a pace guy than a trip guy anyway. Horses that ALWAYS go wide due to their running style should also be taken into account.
John

OK, you don't use groundloss. How about run-ups, wind, and handtimes?

I understand that you put a "+" when you think a horse deserves extra credit for going wide, but my preference is to have the specific groundloss included in the figure so that I don't have to wonder just what that "+" means in this case. A horse can be three-wide around both turns. He can be five-wide around both turns. That's four lengths difference in distance travelled right there.

[njcurveball]

You know the reason EVERYONE comes here? Very impressive.

Like Yogi says, the only people who ain't coming here are the ones that don't show up. :lol:

[Tom]

No one comes here anymore - it's too crowded! :lol:

Seriuosly, the sheets do not account for pace, am I correct?
I think that is one of the major contributors to a final time.
Look at Pyro this year - slow paces = slow final times.

[Gibbon]

Thoro-Graph and Ragozin have websites, CJ. So you can satisfy your curiosity..... :lol: :lol: :lol:


So does BM. Two in fact, but few seem to mind discussing ‘puter apps.
For those that are considering sheet style play, Joe Cardello’s book “SPEED TO SPARE” is required reading.

[George Sands]

Seriuosly, the sheets do not account for pace, am I correct?


No.

They account for pace, but they do it according to their view on how pace affects races, and their view may not be your view.

[classhandicapper]

I love these conversations because they are both stimulating and make me laugh!

IMO, top figure makers tend to be a very bright and analytical group.

They can point out all the theoretical problems with making accurate pace/speed figures and the strengths and weaknesses of all the competing products.

They know that things like run up changes, wind changes, track speed changes, ground loss, path bias, an almost infinite combination of pace scenarios, differences in track speed between between sprints and routes, differences in track speed for sections of the track because of shadows and the sun, mid day track maintenaince, weather changes etc.... all impact fractions and final times in difficult to measure ways.

Yet despite all these difficulties, some figure makers and users have compete confidence making pattern projections based on 1/4 point moves in their figures (less than a length).

Some have complete confidence calling some limited ALW winner that ran 1/5th or 2/5th of a second faster than a Grade 1 horse on a different day and at a different track the better horse.

Some bet horses off less than a length edge in their figures on the assumption it's the best horse even though other evidence suggests something else etc...

I love figures.

I started making my own before Beyer's first book came out (admittedly bad). I started making Beyer style speed and pace figures right after his first book came out. I've studied and argued the strengths and weaknesses of the methodologies of all leading figure makers for years.

It seems to me that numeric figures of all types are an indispensible tool in a handicappers tool box, but none of this stuff is really accurate or reflective of reality. Figures are reasonable approximations of ability/performance that give you an objective basis for evaluating horses because the more subjective measurements of class accompanied by visual skills aren't perfect either.

At times, huge differences between figure makers about the same race can really matter, but that really doesn't happen all that often. Most of the times things are fairly close. It really comes down to personal preferences.

[bobphilo]

I love these conversations because they are both stimulating and make me laugh!

IMO, top figure makers tend to be a very bright and analytical group.

They can point out all the theoretical problems with making accurate pace/speed figures and the strengths and weaknesses of all the competing products.

They know that things like run up changes, wind changes, track speed changes, ground loss, path bias, an almost infinite combination of pace scenarios, differences in track speed between between sprints and routes, differences in track speed for sections of the track because of shadows and the sun, mid day track maintenaince, weather changes etc.... all impact fractions and final times in difficult to measure ways.

Yet despite all these difficulties, some figure makers and users have compete confidence making pattern projections based on 1/4 point moves in their figures (less than a length).

Some have complete confidence calling some limited ALW winner that ran 1/5th or 2/5th of a second faster than a Grade 1 horse on a different day and at a different track the better horse.

Some bet horses off less than a length edge in their figures on the assumption it's the best horse even though other evidence suggests something else etc...

I love figures.

I started making my own before Beyer's first book came out (admittedly bad). I started making Beyer style speed and pace figures right after his first book came out. I've studied and argued the strengths and weaknesses of the methodologies of all leading figure makers for years.

It seems to me that numeric figures of all types are an indispensible tool in a handicappers tool box, but none of this stuff is really accurate or reflective of reality. Figures are reasonable approximations of ability/performance that give you an objective basis for evaluating horses because the more subjective measurements of class accompanied by visual skills aren't perfect either.

At times, huge differences between figure makers about the same race can really matter, but that really doesn't happen all that often. Most of the times things are fairly close. It really comes down to personal preferences.

Class,

You make good points about the similarities and differences in figure makers. It is important to quantify performances in order to compare them. I also used to make my own figures many years ago. Having a good deal of time on my hands at the time, I constructed a table of class pars for all classes and distances run at NYRA tracks for the previous year. This was before the age of pcs and my only tools were the charts appearing in the newspaper and a calculator. I was delighted when Quirin came out with his “Winning at the Races” and his computer study came out with the roughly the same numbers as my own. I then used these pars to construct speed figures based on these class pars – admittedly not as accurate as those based on projections but still useful. I only had time to do a daily variant and figures for horses running at NYRA tracks but got away with it. Probably because there was less shipping 30 years ago. The win %s and prices were good until the Beyers became available for all. The moral is that as important accurate figures are, what’s even more important is how good they are relative to what’s available to the public. This has become common knowledge by know.

Now that there are several more sophisticated figures available to all and as you say, though they differ in some of their theoretical roots, I’d say that their similarities outweigh the differences and the main differences lie less in how they are made and more in how they are interpreted – the crucial 2nd step in handicapping. In this part of the process, the advantage goes to those that look for the answers to the questions (including as Scott asked, “how will my horse run today”) with the appropriate statistical methodology and to use the field of knowledge that applies and not some popular dogma. In fact, the major part of a statisticians training consists mainly of learning how to ask the right question and using the right test to answer it. The actual number crunching can be left to mindless computers, or in the case of academic researchers, their student assistants. The same applies to handicapping.

Racehorses are bodies in motion so even a rudimentary knowledge of physics can help eliminate some handicapping theories that contradict the knowledge in this field. They are also living, breathing beings so the laws of biology and exercise physiology apply. Handicapping has hundreds of variables so the laws of statistics and probability apply. To not avail oneself of these bodies of knowledge to interpret the figures is to go to the racing wars unarmed.

Bob

[trigger]

I'm curious how the Sheets handle Keeneland, where being wide and losing ground is obviously much better than being inside.

CJ, I think you know how the Rags/TG handle ground loss.......they give more credit to the horse that ran further(i.e. wider) in their figs. So, at least at Keeneland, this should lead many to the "right" horse using the Rag/TG figs .
To me, ground loss and accurate figure making go together else wise why would human track and field have staggered starts if ground loss didn't matter?
I would much rather adjust a figure for a horse who habitually runs wide than the other way around.
Also, wide vs. inside biases are extremely hard to quantify because of the jockey factor (i.e. an actual or perceived bias may impact how and where a jockey runs his horse).

[George Sands]

I love these conversations because they are both stimulating and make me laugh!

I love them for the same reason, CH. I've been reading them for years on various websites. By the time you plow through all the agendas--people selling something, people trying to help a seller, people trying to justify what they have spent so much money on, people trying to suck up to a moderator, people trying to lay the groundwork for selling something in the future, and lord knows what else--what you have, with apologies to Indulto, is a mind-melting mess, a mystifying morass, a minatory milieu.

[Indulto]

No.

They account for pace, but they do it according to their view on how pace affects races, and their view may not be your view.Perhaps you could explain what "their" view of pace involves and how it is accounted for. I assume 'they" are the sheet product figuremakers. How does a SHEETS user deal with pace if he is relying solely on the product?

[George Sands]

Perhaps you could explain what "their" view of pace involves and how it is accounted for. I assume 'they" are the sheet product figuremakers. How does a SHEETS user deal with pace if he is relying solely on the product?

Len Friedman is in so much better a position to explain Len Friedman's views than I am to explain Len Friedman's views. Why not ask him your question on his website (where you post regularly) and then copy his reply to this string? I think that would be better than my stumbling around trying to guess how he would answer. I'm sure I'll take some more heat (not from you) for suggesting that when you can spend 30 seconds and get an answer to a question directly from the person who makes the damn figures, that's a better way to go than asking a non-employee to speculate, but so be it.

I will take a shot at the second and third parts of your post:

The Sheets account for pace by making some figures to points other than the finish line, and by employing different pace symbols, and by yanking some races free of the rest when the pace, to their mind, has rendered the final time unrepresentative. That is my understanding, but please keep in mind that I am rusty on this particular question.

How do I, as a sheet player, deal with pace when I am handicapping a card? I subscribe to the DRF and the Moss Pace Figures and use them side by side with sheets. Always.

[proximity]

i don't use thorograph and don't really have an agenda, but in all fairness i believe tg does post both a "dead rail" symbol and "path" info should you want to make adjustments to the figures of horses who raced on these tracks.

[Indulto]

Len Friedman is in so much better a position to explain Len Friedman's views than I am to explain Len Friedman's views. Why not ask him your question on his website (where you post regularly) and then copy his reply to this string? I think that would be better than my stumbling around trying to guess how he would answer. I'm sure I'll take some more heat (not from you) for suggesting that when you can spend 30 seconds and get an answer to a question directly from the person who makes the damn figures, that's a better way to go than asking a non-employee to speculate, but so be it.

I will take a shot at the second and third parts of your post:

The Sheets account for pace by making some figures to points other than the finish line, and by employing different pace symbols, and by yanking some races free of the rest when the pace, to their mind, has rendered the final time unrepresentative. That is my understanding, but please keep in mind that I am rusty on this particular question.

How do I, as a sheet player, deal with pace when I am handicapping a card? I subscribe to the DRF and the Moss Pace Figures and use them side by side with sheets. Always.It wasn't Friedman who responded to Tom regarding pace. You were the one holding court here. ;)

I would describe my posts there as sporadic since I started posting here, and usually it's in response to someone who might still appreciate my humor, but I can understand why it might seem like more to you considering that you've stopped posting there altogether. :cool:

[russowen77]

I have a problem that I have yet to have answered.

Last winter TG gave free sheets on the same day Woodside screwed the pooch :) and gave us a card instead of a race. By combining the two I was able to find two races that gave me some really solid exactas. One for $60 something.

My problem is the cost. TG costs 25 a card and the RS are 35. The flashcards are cheap by comparison.

My problem is that I am not trying to be a pro. I just want to supplement my income. How much of a bankroll and what type of betting structure do you need to cover that much expense before the races even start.

I can't assume I will get hits like that daily, or can I. I am very convoluted over this subject. I would sure like some folks to chime in here.

[George Sands]

It wasn't Friedman who responded to Tom regarding pace. You were the one holding court here. ;)

I would describe my posts there as sporadic since I started posting here, and usually it's in response to someone who might still appreciate my humor, but I can understand why it might seem like more to you considering that you've stopped posting there altogether. :cool:

Indulto,

Tom asked a question that could have been answered by anyone who had ever looked at a Ragozin symbol sheet, meaning you were only one symbol-sheet look away from being able to answer it yourself.;) My answering that question was a far cry from my answering the question you asked.

You would define your Ragozin posts as "sporadic." I would describe them as something else. But one thing is for sure. Over the last 20 months, on both websites, your posts have improved more than anybody's.

[George Sands]

And change my "define" to "describe." Better yet, Indulto, please tell me how to use that damn "edit posts" thing.

[George Sands]

My problem is that I am not trying to be a pro. I just want to supplement my income. How much of a bankroll and what type of betting structure do you need to cover that much expense before the races even start.

I can't assume I will get hits like that daily, or can I. I am very convoluted over this subject. I would sure like some folks to chime in here.

Russowen,

Thoro-Graph has a Red Board Room where you can see all of the data the day after each day's races. I believe they still have a quota, but if you write to them privately and let them know you are sincere, I am sure that they will lift the quota for you and let you go to town. My suggestion is that you take a track or two, keep yourself in the dark about each day's results, and then go into Thoro-Graph's Red Board Room and handicap those races the day after they are run. Do this for a decent stretch and not only will you vastly improve your sheet-reading, you will also get some kind of an idea what using Thoro-Graph for real would do for your handicapping. Then you will be better-positioned to answer the other questions you have.

[Pace Cap'n]

There's a guy at my local simo...he has no DRF or form of any sort...he does have Thoro-Graph sheets for all the major tracks...he is on the phone constantly until he goes to the window a buys STACKS of tickets...you sure don't want to get in line behind him. How much be bets and how much he wins I have no idea...but he buys lots of tickets. He is not at all reluctant to share his sheets with anyone who seems interested.

Just mentioned all this because he intrigues me, but I'm not nosy enough to ask him what he's up to.

[russowen77]

Russowen,

Thoro-Graph has a Red Board Room where you can see all of the data the day after each day's races. I believe they still have a quota, but if you write to them privately and let them know you are sincere, I am sure that they will lift the quota for you and let you go to town. My suggestion is that you take a track or two, keep yourself in the dark about each day's results, and then go into Thoro-Graph's Red Board Room and handicap those races the day after they are run. Do this for a decent stretch and not only will you vastly improve your sheet-reading, you will also get some kind of an idea what using Thoro-Graph for real would do for your handicapping. Then you will be better-positioned to answer the other questions you have.
Thanks for the data.

I only like to do at max 2 tracks at a time. Just me. I don't do tourneys only cash and I like to get a feel. The one thing I love about TG is for dicerning form. I am just not sure how much my base bet has to be to pay for the services. When I combined Tg with good figs and my eyes, I am a horseman, I had a wonderful day. One day does not make a believer but it made me start to realize the potential out there. So much to learn. :)

[cj]

CJ, I think you know how the Rags/TG handle ground loss.......they give more credit to the horse that ran further(i.e. wider) in their figs. So, at least at Keeneland, this should lead many to the "right" horse using the Rag/TG figs .
To me, ground loss and accurate figure making go together else wise why would human track and field have staggered starts if ground loss didn't matter?
I would much rather adjust a figure for a horse who habitually runs wide than the other way around.
Also, wide vs. inside biases are extremely hard to quantify because of the jockey factor (i.e. an actual or perceived bias may impact how and where a jockey runs his horse).

I know how they do it for most tracks, but not for a track like Keeneland. Adding to a figure because a horse was wide when that is clearly the place to be doesn't make sense. It might help at Keeneland, but it is a three week meet and most will run there once, twice tops.

I don't have time to go read every message board. I posted in the past on the TG board, but since I don't use the product, it wouldn't really be fair questioning the methods on his site. The poster that started the thread was saying he used them so I thought he might know the answer. I guess it also isn't fair to lump the Sheets and TG together since they are using pretty different philosophies these days.

[Indulto]

... You would define your Ragozin posts as "sporadic." I would describe them as something else. But one thing is for sure. Over the last 20 months, on both websites, your posts have improved more than anybody's.I stand corrected. My posts there became sporadic in your absence. Thanks for the kind words, but the only difference I can detect is the expanded discussion topic menu here. I look forward to your increased participation in off-topic. Nice to see that you've recovered from your alliteration allergy. :cool:

[joe.p.]

Years ago I started with Rags about 9 yrs then switched to Thorograph which I thought was much better. Now CJ`s figures In my opinion the best of the best and after 50 yrs of playing the horses never made as much money in all the years of playing....joe

[trigger]

BTW, TG is working on a "Race Shape" report. See first message in MB if interested.

[George Sands]

Thank you, Trigger.

Edit:

Please visit the site for details. TG is not an advertiser on this board. If George could condense that a bit I imagine it is fine, but posting a full paste complete with links probably is not.