100 year war.

[Gibbon]

I have wrote previously about Iraq's politically correct rule of engagement compared with time honored rules of engagement here (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44276&page=2&pp=15). posts 26 & 29. We should never use American military supremacy as a police force. The continued buffoonery by our Commander 'n Chief wantonly turning a blind eye to cultural and religious difference is beyond absurd.

BAGHDAD - Iraq's government moved Sunday to restore discipline within the ranks of the security forces, sacking more than 1,300 soldiers and policemen who deserted during recent fighting against Shiite militias in Basra. --> Yahoo news (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080413/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq) We have a puppet govt. in Iraq protected by US forces. In Afghanistan, another puppet govt. chiefly supported by the opium trade - plus – little if any vision from our presidential candidates equals a 100 year police action. Without cohesion among faction, oil distribution will only add to chaos if in fact some US troops are withdrawn. Iraq is a lost cause.








___________________________
I don't see how you can lead this country to succeed in Iraq if you say wrong war, wrong time, wrong place. What message does that send our troops? What message does that send to our allies? What message does that send the Iraqis? ~ George W. Bush ~ Mr president what message are you sending?

[Secretariat]

My guess is those 1300 will join the insurgency I suppose and with the coalition of the unwilling abandoning Iraq in droves, we may now be up to a 101 year war.

[JustRalph]

we should stay at least a hundred years and I am campaigning for the city of Basra to be renamed JustRalphLand.............

just like everything else........we stay only as long as it is in our interest.

[Gibbon]

JR, for a 'wild eyed right wing extremist' you're missing the point. This has become expense in term of money and lives. We have 20,000 pound bunker busters we will never use for politically correct reasons. Bush caused this Iraq disaster. Turns out Tom was right all along, nuke'um in one day and done. Has anyone here read Sun Tzu or anything by the greatest military tactician of modern warefare – General William Tecumseh Sherman?

Iraq, OPEC, and Bush what a frightening triangle. We have lost the peace because of Bush's gross incompetence. Come Nov. when Obama wins we will have lost the war!!!





_________________________________________
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it ~ General Sherman

[JustRalph]

JR, for a 'wild eyed right wing extremist' you're missing the point. This has become expense in term of money and lives. We have 20,000 pound bunker busters we will never use for politically correct reasons. Bush caused this Iraq disaster. Turns out Tom was right all along, nuke'um in one day and done. Has anyone here read Sun Tzu or anything by the greatest military tactician of modern warefare – General William Tecumseh Sherman?

Iraq, OPEC, and Bush what a frightening triangle. We have lost the peace because of Bush's gross incompetence. Come Nov. when Obama wins we will have lost the war!!!

_________________________________________
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it ~ General Sherman

Great Post................ :ThmbUp:

[rastajenk]

My guess is those 1300 will join the insurgency...Why would they do that? If they don't want to fight, why would they join the other side? Maybe they'll turn to retail or petty local crime, but they don't seem to be ready-made terrorists.

[delayjf]

We have lost the peace because of Bush's gross incompetence. Come Nov. when Obama wins we will have lost the war!!!
In the short-term, I'm not sure anything could have been done to stop the infighting in Iraq.

Why would they do that? If they don't want to fight, why would they join the other side?
Wishful thinking on Sec's part.

[Secretariat]

Why would they do that? If they don't want to fight, why would they join the other side? Maybe they'll turn to retail or petty local crime, but they don't seem to be ready-made terrorists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/world/middleeast/14iraq.html?em&ex=1208318400&en=469edc870ff31c47&ei=5087%0A

"Maj. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, an Interior Ministry spokesman, said 500 soldiers and 421 policemen were fired in Basra, including 37 senior police officers up to the rank of brigadier general. Police officials said the remainder were fired in Kut.

“Some of them were sympathetic with these lawbreakers, some refused to battle for political or national or sectarian or religious reasons,” General Khalaf told The Associated Press in Basra.

[JustRalph]

What sec is failing to mention is............. the entire force that went to basra was just over 12k. This was all Iraqi Troops. The ones who ran off or refused to fight were about ten percent.

Don't forget that 90% stayed and did a good job of shutting down al Sadr's boys. That is huge compared to these same numbers in the first two years. It is a great improvement...........even though you won't hear that from the left.

[Gibbon]

The White House has announced its desire to withdraw troops from Iraq starting this summer due to the surge's success. This is a mistake that could undermine what the new strategy has achieved.

The withdrawal may have political appeal, but the danger is that they will put even more strain on our overstretched military in Iraq. The new strategy of cleaning out neighborhoods of insurgents and then leaving sufficient forces behind to prevent the bad guys from coming back has been successful. But the insurgents, though badly squeezed, are still a force to be reckoned with.

Why take a chance by pulling out some of the troops? In fact, we should be increasing the size of our Army and the Marine Corps. We need more troops in Afghanistan, and we need more in Iraq to make sure the job gets done thoroughly. And who knows what new crisis in another part of the world may require U.S. forces?

One of the enduring mysteries of the Bush Administration is why after 9/11 it never truly beefed up the U.S. military, why it tried to fight the war against Islamic fanaticism on the cheap. Our troops have performed heroically, despite repeated tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. Clearly many of them are paying the price of those repeated deployments in unnecessarily strained family issues. Those in the Reserves and National Guard are also paying a price in repeated absences from their civilian jobs.

The Democrats would make Bush’s drawdown even more severe. John McCain, a former career military man who currently has a son in the Marines and another attending the U.S. Naval Academy, won't make such a mistake.

But alas I fear it’s a money game. Obama’s ability to raise vast sums of capital when needed, nearly double Clinton or McCain, suggests to this political observer a victory in November.




____________________
Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster. ~ General W. Sherman

[ddog]

What sec is failing to mention is............. the entire force that went to basra was just over 12k. This was all Iraqi Troops. The ones who ran off or refused to fight were about ten percent.

Don't forget that 90% stayed and did a good job of shutting down al Sadr's boys. That is huge compared to these same numbers in the first two years. It is a great improvement...........even though you won't hear that from the left.

What among other things you fail to mention is that if Sadr and the others didn't agree to stop and stand down the gvt(so called) forces would have been routed.

Why did not the gvt forces , once committed finish the job?
They couldn't.
Just as in any battle, you do not start what you can't finish.

Also, without US support the gvt troops would have been badly beaten.

You see improvement where you HOPE to see , it's not there.

We are paying almost everyone to be with us and even those were shooting at us before.
The Iraq forces are just a welfare state disguised as a military force.

No matter how long we stay , this is and will be a civil-sectarian war to the death.
I say , before all sides get stronger and better organised , let them do it now.

[ddog]

The White House has announced its desire to withdraw troops from Iraq starting this summer due to the surge's success. This is a mistake that could undermine what the new strategy has achieved.

The withdrawal may have political appeal, but the danger is that they will put even more strain on our overstretched military in Iraq. The new strategy of cleaning out neighborhoods of insurgents and then leaving sufficient forces behind to prevent the bad guys from coming back has been successful. But the insurgents, though badly squeezed, are still a force to be reckoned with.

Why take a chance by pulling out some of the troops? In fact, we should be increasing the size of our Army and the Marine Corps. We need more troops in Afghanistan, and we need more in Iraq to make sure the job gets done thoroughly. And who knows what new crisis in another part of the world may require U.S. forces?

One of the enduring mysteries of the Bush Administration is why after 9/11 it never truly beefed up the U.S. military, why it tried to fight the war against Islamic fanaticism on the cheap. Our troops have performed heroically, despite repeated tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. Clearly many of them are paying the price of those repeated deployments in unnecessarily strained family issues. Those in the Reserves and National Guard are also paying a price in repeated absences from their civilian jobs.

The Democrats would make Bush’s drawdown even more severe. John McCain, a former career military man who currently has a son in the Marines and another attending the U.S. Naval Academy, won't make such a mistake.

But alas I fear it’s a money game. Obama’s ability to raise vast sums of capital when needed, nearly double Clinton or McCain, suggests to this political observer a victory in November.











____________________
Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster. ~ General W. Sherman



Ony with a draft will you increase the size of the mil ground forces by any significant degree.
The longer we are seen to be dragging the thing out with no "light at the end" or "no corner turned" (Gen.P before Congress last week) the less people are going to feel like coming in to be shipped to a police action.

Captains,etc. the guts of the force are not staying in.
We are gutting the mil.
We can't even replace the gear as fast as we are using it up now.

This Army was never built to sustain this type of action and the dumb refusal to understand that by some has weaken the force in serious ways.

It was always a red herring about the terrorist threat from Iraq.
We are fighting the wrong war and have been for years.

A strongman put in when we came in to Iraq would have had a chance to keep things under control and they would have dealt with the AQ types although they have no need of a base in Iraq as Somalia, Pak,Afg and other spots serve just as well.

I am for protecting our interests , but one has to be much smarter about it than this admin has been.

Small groups tracking the terrorist is the way to go.
We do not gain anything by using a conventional fighting force from the 1970's in this type of action.

We can stay a 100 years, the people and their culture will still be there.
100 years is nothing in that part of the world.
Not even a blip on the radar screen.

It's their turn, if bases turn up we have the ability to take them out without a single soldier on the ground.
We have , as usual , swung from ignoring the threat in AFG when it was plain to see and was seen to wild overreaction in Iraq.



bonehead is too kind to the desicion makers of this fools errand.

P.S.

This was not a desire of GWB, this was a demand by the mil.
They could not sustain it any longer.
There should be little doubt in anyones mind that if GWB could get 300,000 in there, they would be there now.

Of course, when you add up the fact that around 180,000 "contractors" of various types are in there as well, you see how far away we really are from being able to field a true self-sustaining fighting force.
This as well will come back to kill us in the future.

[ddog]

In the short-term, I'm not sure anything could have been done to stop the infighting in Iraq.


Wishful thinking on Sec's part.


they didn't need to JOIN the OTHER side.
THey were already ON one of the other 10 sides.
Just getting a paycheck from Iraq gvt and/or us.

[Gibbon]

Delaware Dog,

During the initial planning stages of this police action; it has been suggested that Iraq, the size of California, required half a million troops to accomplish set goals. Don’t ask me what those goals were ‘cause it has evolved into something else today. Anyways, those voices were silenced or possible terminated. America refuses to use advanced technology so we need more boots. No matter how one looks at Iraq no one can deny – it’s a political disaster.







________________________________
War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want. ~ General W. Sherman

[PaceAdvantage]

What among other things you fail to mention is that if Sadr and the others didn't agree to stop and stand down the gvt(so called) forces would have been routed.Does this make sense on any rational level?

[ddog]

Does this make sense on any rational level?


Only to those that are open to rational discourse.

Why not reply to the real question?

If one sends a force into a town/province with the stated intent to PUT down the insurgents(who exactly are they by the way?) and then backs off after getting the shit kicked out of them and starts tossing out timeframes and then at the end of the timeframes and the demand for those forces to turn in their arms and none of that happens, then what would you say good came out of that?

You think Maliki and his cronies went there to do what exactly?


Perhaps you could enlightment as to the alternate universe story on that action,I love to see the props spinning.

[JustRalph]

DDog, you are apparently privileged to the inner workings of the U.S. Forces. You must be to say some of the things you say.

I get the impression that British and American airpower forced Sadr to stand down. You have your opine, I have mine.

[PaceAdvantage]

Only to those that are open to rational discourse.I'm quite open to rational discourse. Here is your statement:

What among other things you fail to mention is that if Sadr and the others didn't agree to stop and stand down the gvt(so called) forces would have been routed.Why in the world would Sadr agree to stop and stand down if he had the govt forces by the balls? Like I said, it makes no sense.

[skate]

Does this make sense on any rational level?

no, but it's nice of you to ask:cool:

[russowen77]

WWII took 5 years. We are in year six. The only war this looks like to me is Viet Nam. I fought that one. We lost the war and won every major battle.

The only part that really kills me is that we spent the 50s and 60s installing dictators like SH in power. Somoza etc. He was perfect for keeping his heel to those crazy SOB's throat. he even asked our permission before he invaded Kuwait and we gave it. They were angle drilling btw.

I don't understand why we did the 90 thing. He was perfect. Liked to build palaces and such but compared to the Saudi royals the man was a saint. If we hadn't screwed up then the oil would be flowing and all would be well in the world. He sure killed a lot less of them than we have.

We had the perfect dictator in place, he was even secular, and we screwed the pooch. :lol: Nothing to do now but laugh.

[delayjf]

he even asked our permission before he invaded Kuwait and we gave it. They were angle drilling btw. What's your source for the above?
I don't understand why we did the 90 thing. He was perfect. Liked to build palaces and such but compared to the Saudi royals the man was a saint. If we hadn't screwed up then the oil would be flowing and all would be well in the world. He sure killed a lot less of them than we have.

We had the perfect dictator in place, he was even secular, and we screwed the pooch. Nothing to do now but laugh.
Interesting take, it does make one wonder - what if we'd have let him take Kuwait.

[ljb]

Why in the world would Sadr agree to stop and stand down if he had the govt forces by the balls? Like I said, it makes no sense.
Word i hear is, he was bought. Your tax dollars at work. :D

[russowen77]

What's your source for the above?

Interesting take, it does make one wonder - what if we'd have let him take Kuwait.
There is a video tape of our ambassador saying that we would take it as an internal matter. She screwed up but they sure asked first. the tape was widely broadcast.

Second part. I think it would have helped us out big time. SH was secular. He just wanted to sell oil and have a good time as far as I could tell.

He was sure as hell scared of us. We would not be paying so much for oil right now imo.

[JustRalph]

Word i hear is, he was bought. Your tax dollars at work. :D

please tell us where you heard this?


I don't doubt he was bought. I don't have a problem w/buying him. As long as he goes away, for good.

[JustRalph]

What among other things you fail to mention is that if Sadr and the others didn't agree to stop and stand down the gvt(so called) forces would have been routed.

Why did not the gvt forces , once committed finish the job?
They couldn't.
Just as in any battle, you do not start what you can't finish.

Also, without US support the gvt troops would have been badly beaten.

You see improvement where you HOPE to see , it's not there.
We are paying almost everyone to be with us and even those were shooting at us before.
The Iraq forces are just a welfare state disguised as a military force.

No matter how long we stay , this is and will be a civil-sectarian war to the death.
I say , before all sides get stronger and better organised , let them do it now.


It looks like somebody else finds improvement...............The Citizens!!!!
http://www.afp.com/english/home/imgs/logo.gif

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jau8cyaqusv7BMEs2SCe0aFbTabA

Basra residents welcome Iraq army crackdown
18 hours ago

BASRA, Iraq (AFP) — Three weeks after Iraqi troops swarmed into the southern city of Basra to take on armed militiamen who had overrun the streets, many residents say they feel safer and that their lives have improved.

The fierce fighting which marked the first week of Operation Sawlat al-Fursan (Charge of the Knights) has given way to slower, more focused house-by-house searches by Iraqi troops, which led on Monday to the freeing of an abducted British journalist.

Residents say the streets have been cleared of gunmen, markets have reopened, basic services have been resumed and a measure of normality has returned to the oil-rich city.

The port of Umm Qasr is in the hands of the Iraqi forces who wrested control of the facility from Shiite militiamen, and according to the British military it is operational once again.

However, the city is flooded with troops, innumerable checkpoints constantly snarl the traffic, residents are scared to go out at night despite the curfew being relaxed, and the sound of sporadic gunfire can still be heard.

An AFP correspondent said three northwestern neighbourhoods once under the firm control of the Mahdi Army militia of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr -- Al-Hayaniyah, Khamsamile and Garma -- are now encircled by Iraqi troops who are carrying out door-to-door searches.

Two other neighbourhoods once dominated by the Mahdi Army, Al-Qiblah in the southwest and Al-Taymiyyah in the centre, have been cleared of weaponry and many people have been arrested, military officials say.

Residents expressed relief at the improved security.

"I am very happy about the situation right now. The deployment of the Iraqi army has made gunmen and gangsters disappear from the streets," said court employee Mahdi Fallah, 42.

"The gangs were controlling the ports and smuggling oil. Now the ports are back in government hands. Everything in Basra is better than before."

Taxi driver Samir Hashim, 35, said he now felt safer driving through the city's streets and was willing to put up with the traffic jams caused by the many security checkpoints.

"We feel secure. Assassinations have ended, organised crime is finished and armed groups are no longer on the streets," said Hashim.

"I think Basra will be the best city in Iraq," he added optimistically. "We are finally beginning to feel there is law in Basra."

"We feel comfortable and safe and secure," said civil servant Alah Mustapha.
"The situation in Basra is stable. The Iraqi army controls the city and there are no longer armed groups on the streets."
The Iraqi security operations have not been without severe problems, and on Sunday 1,300 police and soldiers were sacked for failing to do their duty during the assault, which began on March 25 under orders of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.

Iraqi military officers have also come under fire from their coalition force allies for launching the operations without adequate preparation, with American commander in Iraq General David Petraeus saying Maliki had disregarded US advice to delay the assault.

But the security forces were given a boost by the rescue of British photographer Richard Butler on Monday two months after he was kidnapped from a Basra hotel.

The journalist was freed when troops from the army's Fourteenth Division raided a house in Basra's Jubaiyia neighbourhood, not knowing he was being held captive there.

The US military, meanwhile, said that since the crackdown began, the Iraqi security forces have arrested some 430 people, including 28 death row convicts who had been on the run.

And the British military, which is stationed at Basra airport giving logistical and air support to the Iraqi forces, said Iraqi soldiers had uncovered large caches of weapons and had dismantled a car bomb factory.

[Tom]

I heard that, too.
CNN?
He was being paid as a service to the Iraqi governement, or something.....not sure. I thought it was some sort of face-saving agreement - he was beat down and this gave him an out and both sides got what they wanted...cease fire. This was a few weeks ago, and I wasn't really paying a lot of attention.

[delayjf]

There is a video tape of our ambassador saying that we would take it as an internal matter. She screwed up but they sure asked first. the tape was widely broadcast.
As I recall, he was given time to withdraw from Kuwait - but still one does have to wonder what would the rest of the world done without the US taking the lead.

[Ned Locke]

Well, Sherman Was a drunk you know.


JR, for a 'wild eyed right wing extremist' you're missing the point. This has become expense in term of money and lives. We have 20,000 pound bunker busters we will never use for politically correct reasons. Bush caused this Iraq disaster. Turns out Tom was right all along, nuke'um in one day and done. Has anyone here read Sun Tzu or anything by the greatest military tactician of modern warefare – General William Tecumseh Sherman?

Iraq, OPEC, and Bush what a frightening triangle. We have lost the peace because of Bush's gross incompetence. Come Nov. when Obama wins we will have lost the war!!!





_________________________________________
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it ~ General Sherman

[russowen77]

After he got in there asking him to back down was like giving a jarhead a case of beer and then asking him to give it back after one. We are talking about Arabs. He couldn't have done that without being assasinated in due course. The same reason the idiot didn't just open his country to UN inspectors when he had no WMDs.

Before anyone jumps me on my jarhead statement, I was Army attached to the 3rd in 1970 during the standdown. Not only have I earned the right with all the verbal crap I took I also think they are the best damned infantry in the world. My Godson just got back to Lejune after his third tour this week.