I need to vent

[horses721]

I hope you have access to race replays over the internet so you can see what I am talking about.

Race 9 at Keeneland. Please check out the ride on horse #10 Cato Major by Jockey Kent Desormeaux. As they came around the turn and turned for home, Kent was using his whip but put it away when they straightened out then stood up on his horse several yards before the wire and made the race much closer than it should have been. Why did he put the whip away when he was within a neck of the leading horse turning for home??? Why did he start easing up on the horse so far from the wire?
Any input would be appreciated if you think I'm wrong.

My next problem was with Race 8 at Oaklawn Park. I didn't know the track conditions so I looked at the live feed from Oaklawn and it said the track was muddy. When the race was being run, I saw no signs of a muddy track. Maybe it was muddy early but when the 8th race was run, it looked very sunny and I didn't see any mud on the track. Does anybody else think that was a muddy track?

These two things have me aggravated and have once again demonstrated how American Racing does not do anything to help or PROTECT their fans.

[JustRalph]

I think he realized he wasn't going to get to the winner and took it easy on the horse. I don't think he was going to get to him either........no matter what.

[juanepstein]

was he useing the whip trying to get him/her to switch leads?

if the horse never switched leads then the horse was probably to spent to win.

[sevenall]

[QUOTE=horses721]I hope you have access to race replays over the internet so you can see what I am talking about.

Race 9 at Keeneland. Please check out the ride on horse #10 Cato Major by Jockey Kent Desormeaux. As they came around the turn and turned for home, Kent was using his whip but put it away when they straightened out then stood up on his horse several yards before the wire and made the race much closer than it should have been. Why did he put the whip away when he was within a neck of the leading horse turning for home??? Why did he start easing up on the horse so far from the wire?
Any input would be appreciated if you think I'm wrong.

In watching the race, it looks like Kent hits the horse several times right handed and then switches to the left. When he sees that his horse isn't going to catch the winner he doesn't keep hitting him.

The bigger complaint I have is when the jockey doesn't keep after the horse and then gets passed for second or third. I'm assuming that's what you were worried about?

[horses721]

I wasn't happy that he gave up so early using the whip but the worst part was his standing up on the horse too far away from the wire. He only held second by a neck because he stood up so early. Only in America is it acceptable for jockeys to not go all out till the finsih line.

[Imriledup]

Kent Desormeaux is the biggest culprit when it comes to wrapping up early. If you bet one dollar on Kent, be prepared for a lackluster ride on occasion. If you need this guy to hang on for a board spot once he sees he can't win, you've got a problem.

Kent's attitude is why he's relocated, trainers out west got sick and tired of his act, so he needed a fresh start and went east where trainers bought into this 'new and improved' Kent.

[boomman]

Kent Desormeaux is the biggest culprit when it comes to wrapping up early. If you bet one dollar on Kent, be prepared for a lackluster ride on occasion. If you need this guy to hang on for a board spot once he sees he can't win, you've got a problem.

Kent's attitude is why he's relocated, trainers out west got sick and tired of his act, so he needed a fresh start and went east where trainers bought into this 'new and improved' Kent.

Same 'ol KD...he was fined a number of times in California for not persevering to the wire....He has done this for years....East coast stewards need to wake up and tell him to get his checkbook out!!!:mad:

Boomer

[Toss_DeLoser]

Oaklawn was muddy all day. The sun did shine, but just a couple of minutes. Forcasting BAD storms tomorrow.

[trying2win]

In the past, some bettors at our local track...i.e. Northlands Park, have pointed out to me in a photo finish print, some jockeys standing up in the irons a few yards from the finished line. They were complaining something to the effect..."How would you feel if you had the winner, but because some other jockeys stood up in the irons yards before the finish line, you lost your trifecta or superfecta, because you were beaten in a close finish in a runner-up position by a horse whose jockey had ridden their horse out to the wire. They had made a very good point.

Same old story though...too many race fans are wimps, or milquetoasts that don't want to complain about a real or perceived injustice on the racetrack, to the executives at the tracks who can actually do something about legitimate complaints. The question is why not? Do you have REAL GOOD REASONS not to...or do you just have REASONS THAT SOUND GOOD? I suspect the latter...better known as alibis or excuses of why you 'haven't', why you 'don't', why you 'can't', or why you 'aren't'.

I complained once to our local racetrack executives about a local harness race I was watching on the internet. The horse in question started way behind the starting gate and wasn't breaking stride...there was NO RECALL.
I complained, not because I bet the horse in question (I actually didn't have a bet on the race). I complained because I thought the situation was unfair to the people who did bet on the horse and lost their money. The explanation I got from the racing manager was something to the effect...... "The race stewards were told by the driver of the horse in question, that the horse was fractious that evening and probably would have broken stride if it was hustled anymore to the gate." I thought that was a weak excuse by the stewards not to give the recall sign.

I don't just complain to the local management about bad customer service or on track perceived shananigans. I'll tell management about some things I like about their employees or racing product when I see them. Helps to point out the positive things too. I wonder how many race fans point out the positive things to management. Hmmm...I wonder if the compliments outweigh the complaints :D?

[Robert Fischer]

Desormeaux makes some mistakes, but he is a hell of a jockey. When you have a bias, you can count on him to make the right adjusts maybe more than just about anyone. He also gets a lot of 2nds and 3rds and wins with contact, impeding rivals, or using the stick to intimidate rivals.

I like the contact he made opening day with Japengo, pinballing off of Prado's horse - taking that one out and coming off the pace in the 5th.

Relative to the Bluegrass Stakes - I would guess Medjool beats Halo Najib this time in a matchup. Kent is on Cool Coal Man. Debatable that Medjool gets up for 2nd in the Lanes End w/out the wide trip, kickback , and Kent cutting him and intimidating.



Desormeaux and Halo Najib win 2nd
swing over
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6523/najibmedjool1gr1.jpg

direct hit of kickback-to-nose
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3704/najibmedjool2ag5.jpg
4 right hands for good measure
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/674/najibmedjool3hk5.jpg


video @
http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2008/videos

[LottaKash]

And sometimes that is ALL the horse has in the tank......The good jockeys know this, heck they are sitting on their backs.

I used to run track in H.S. and when I hit the wall, that was it, for me.....you could whip me, all you wanted to , and it wouldn't have made any difference.......

Sometimes, with all of our info, we perceive the beasts to be machine like, but, in the end, they are just bloodandguts......and they just get tired.......

Or ?..you know.....

[Semipro]

And sometimes that is ALL the horse has in the tank......The good jockeys know this, heck they are sitting on their backs.

I used to run track in H.S. and when I hit the wall, that was it, for me.....you could whip me, all you wanted to , and it wouldn't have made any difference.......

Sometimes, with all of our info, we perceive the beasts to be machine like, but, in the end, they are just bloodandguts......and they just get tired.......

Or ?..you know.....:ThmbUp:

[Hosshead]

was he useing the whip trying to get him/her to switch leads?

if the horse never switched leads then the horse was probably to spent to win.Many years ago, before a race (at Santa Anita), I talked to Kent D. about his mount in that race. At that time I taped every race at Santa Anita. I told him that I had reviewed the last several races of the horse he was riding for the first time, and that the horse not only didn't change leads, but because of that, tended to "lay on" other horses in the stretch. He was very personable and really thanked me for the information.
He said that he would definitely get him to change leads. I asked how he would do that. He said "by shifting my weight at the right time".
Well, he got the horse (a longshot) to switch leads allright, and finished in the money. Even thanked me after the race on his way back to the jocks room.
I know he has stood up in the saddle before the finish a few times, but I gained a lot of respect for him by the way he treated me.

[pandy]

Same 'ol KD...he was fined a number of times in California for not persevering to the wire....He has done this for years....East coast stewards need to wake up and tell him to get his checkbook out!!!:mad:

Boomer

I think jockey's in general get way too much credit but Kent is a brilliant rider. A lot of jockeys just know one thing, send. This guy has everything, timing, touch, skill, and he doesn't kill the horse so you can bet him back next time. One of the few masters of his trade.

[asH]

114.6, 138.58, 144.71 = 23.98, 6.13
Kent knew, and he didnt use a calculator


bxKn! impressive

[Murph]

I think jockey's in general get way too much credit but Kent is a brilliant rider. A lot of jockeys just know one thing, send. This guy has everything, timing, touch, skill, and he doesn't kill the horse so you can bet him back next time. One of the few masters of his trade.You can remember when he took heat from the CA stewards for not riding his mounts out don't you pandy? Early 90's I think, I agree with you about his skill but I don't count on him for an OTB in anything less than a 100K race. He certainly has a "touch" for affecting the alsoran placings.

Murph

[pandy]

I'm way up with Kent D., so I'm perfectly satisfied with the way he rides. Think of the horses you bet that you know are the best but they lose because the jockey uses the horse too hard, it happens all the time. I also did very well with Julie Krone, for the same reason, she saved something for the end, consequently her horses usually won the photo.

[joanied]

This was an interesting thread to read... I think Kent D is one of the best, period. Hell, they all make mistakes, they all 'just blow it', but remember, they all FEEL what's under them, and no amount of whipping will make a beaten horse a winner.
I'd love to see the video of that race (race#9 Keeneland- Cato Major)...anyone have a link to that race?
I'd bet he had good reason for what he did... you can watch a race, even in slow motion, and complain about a ride, but you cannot know what that jock is feeling under him, so you really need to give the benefit of the doubt.
Would it be better for a jock to abuse a horse just for the sake of those betting on it?
I am also sure that you have seen a lot of horse resent being hit, flag their tails, pin their ears, drop the bit...

my 2 cents
:)

[bane]

Depending on most siturations... I would rather have a jockey risk hand riding him out if he feels its better then a PINHEAD using the crop when he's already won a race! Biggest pinhead pet peeve.

[pandy]

Depending on most siturations... I would rather have a jockey risk hand riding him out if he feels its better then a PINHEAD using the crop when he's already won a race! Biggest pinhead pet peeve.

I agree. Overall, jockeys use the horses way too hard. Very often I see a horse pulling away from the field by open lengths and the rider continues to needlessly whip the horse and push the animal to its limits rather than just let it coast home under a hand ride. Then of course the horses bounces next time out.

[juanepstein]

I agree. Overall, jockeys use the horses way too hard. Very often I see a horse pulling away from the field by open lengths and the rider continues to needlessly whip the horse and push the animal to its limits rather than just let it coast home under a hand ride. Then of course the horses bounces next time out.


majority of the time its all about training. horses have the herding instinct to rush up and slow down once they take the lead. whipping keeps them focused and lets them know they have to keep driving to the finish.

[Spectacular Sid]

Kent D? He's a punk.

[Grits]

Kent D? He's a punk.

You threw off on Chris McCarron yesterday; you're bashing Kent DeSormeaux today.

You ever say anything pleasant about anyone involved with the sport?

[asH]

majority of the time its all about training. horses have the herding instinct to rush up and slow down once they take the lead. whipping keeps them focused and lets them know they have to keep driving to the finish.

I'll take a jock with strength pushing the neck of a horse (scrubbing) over a whip jock any day...horses are intelligent creatures, most get it. Top jocks (internationally) use their whips sparingly. Watch any of the smaller tracks, jocks are primarily whip jocks...ever see any of them in the Derby

[john del riccio]

There are 5 things that jocks are measured by.

1.) Warming a horse up (Dominguez is a master),
2.) Getting a horse into stride without creating presenting a problem.
3.) A subtle communication from his hands to the bit (Cordero was the master).
4.) A clock in their head (the best jusdge of pace was Bailey in his prme).
5.) The strength to carry a tired horse to the wire (Pincay could run a clinic).


I have read some folks here that think the jock doesn't matter. With no disrespect intended, that is absolutely not the case. Horses can "feel" the commands, however subtle, from a jocks hands. If a jock is riding a horse "negitavly", they feel it. Even top notch jocks make a mistake, they are human. The jocks that have NO CLOCK in their head, are in my opinion, the worst jocks to have aboard your horse. Pace dictates whats going tat money time and if you don't have a feel for whats going on up front, you are at a severe disadvantage.

John

[joanied]

spectacular bid... you are entitled to your opinion...but I truly don't agree...
nuff said.

Now for the rest of the guys...I do agree...scrubbing on a horse is almost always more effective than whipping...as I mentioned before, many horses just don't like it and will not respond favorably to it. Many times it IS the whip that will keep them 'focused', or keep them going straight...it's all an individual thing, every horse is different, and the good jocks know that and adjust their riding to the horse.
And training is the key...that is why a good trainer will not let his horses gallop or work in company with the horses all staying together...it just reinforces that 'herd instinct', and they wait on a horse once they get the lead.
The exception is the really good horses, the great horses, that have that will to win no matter what...horses that look them in the eye and give that extra something that won't let another horse go by.
:)

[pandy]

majority of the time its all about training. horses have the herding instinct to rush up and slow down once they take the lead. whipping keeps them focused and lets them know they have to keep driving to the finish.

Obviously there are times when whipping helps the horse win, but I'm referring to the countless times a horses has the race well in hand but the rider whips the horse needlessly, which happens all the time.

[pandy]

There are 5 things that jocks are measured by.

1.) Warming a horse up (Dominguez is a master),
2.) Getting a horse into stride without creating presenting a problem.
3.) A subtle communication from his hands to the bit (Cordero was the master).
4.) A clock in their head (the best jusdge of pace was Bailey in his prme).
5.) The strength to carry a tired horse to the wire (Pincay could run a clinic).


I have read some folks here that think the jock doesn't matter. With no disrespect intended, that is absolutely not the case. Horses can "feel" the commands, however subtle, from a jocks hands. If a jock is riding a horse "negitavly", they feel it. Even top notch jocks make a mistake, they are human. The jocks that have NO CLOCK in their head, are in my opinion, the worst jocks to have aboard your horse. Pace dictates whats going tat money time and if you don't have a feel for whats going on up front, you are at a severe disadvantage.

John

Good observations, I love the way Ramon warms a horse up, I think it gives him a connection with the horse that other riders don't have and loosens the horse up.

[joanied]

There are 5 things that jocks are measured by.

1.) Warming a horse up (Dominguez is a master),
2.) Getting a horse into stride without creating presenting a problem.
3.) A subtle communication from his hands to the bit (Cordero was the master).
4.) A clock in their head (the best jusdge of pace was Bailey in his prme).
5.) The strength to carry a tired horse to the wire (Pincay could run a clinic).


I have read some folks here that think the jock doesn't matter. With no disrespect intended, that is absolutely not the case. Horses can "feel" the commands, however subtle, from a jocks hands. If a jock is riding a horse "negitavly", they feel it. Even top notch jocks make a mistake, they are human. The jocks that have NO CLOCK in their head, are in my opinion, the worst jocks to have aboard your horse. Pace dictates whats going tat money time and if you don't have a feel for whats going on up front, you are at a severe disadvantage.

John

Well said, John. Cordero was a freak... there were some jocks 'in the day' that had the best hands...John Sellers comes to mind.
Horses have incredible ability to feel what the rider is saying to them, they can pick up the most subtle movement of the hands, it's truly amazing.
And that clock in the head is soooooo important...the best riders in the mornings are the ones that will get that work into a horse within a fraction of what the trainer wants.
Bailey was super at it...except the day he got Cigar:( beat in the Pacific...I'm still mad at Bailey for that ride.

[BeatTheChalk]

Many years ago, before a race (at Santa Anita), I talked to Kent D. about his mount in that race. At that time I taped every race at Santa Anita. I told him that I had reviewed the last several races of the horse he was riding for the first time, and that the horse not only didn't change leads, but because of that, tended to "lay on" other horses in the stretch. He was very personable and really thanked me for the information.
He said that he would definitely get him to change leads. I asked how he would do that. He said "by shifting my weight at the right time".
Well, he got the horse (a longshot) to switch leads allright, and finished in the money. Even thanked me after the race on his way back to the jocks room.
I know he has stood up in the saddle before the finish a few times, but I gained a lot of respect for him by the way he treated me.

Just curious. :cool: We went to SA HOL and DMR in the late 70's to
the late 80's. Can't recall When KD came out to ride. All we knew
is that he won a ton back in MD. Wondering if you were in So Cal during
those years.
My good friend had a string of pretty fair nags. And the trainers
were OK as well :ThmbUp: Frankel - Van Berg ( thank you Jack for telling us that your hoss was gonna win the Derby in 87 :jump: ) and Gary Jones
When Gary marked the program ..they were all chalk .. and most of
them actually won. We also had great inside information from the late
great Vince Edwards! When his sources got hot...they were burning.
Those days are gone forever. And Harry Henson made every race
sound " super."

[Kelso]

Good observations, I love the way Ramon warms a horse up, I think it gives him a connection with the horse that other riders don't have and loosens the horse up.

Pandy, John Del,
Would you expand on this, please? What is it they do that's so effective? Why does it ... whatever it is ... work so well? Why, do you think, don't others do it, too? Have you worked this into a betting angle?

Thank you.

[JustRalph]

Pat Day beat me many times without a whip............and my guy was wailing on my horse............ :bang:

[pandy]

Pandy, John Del,
Would you expand on this, please? What is it they do that's so effective? Why does it ... whatever it is ... work so well? Why, do you think, don't others do it, too? Have you worked this into a betting angle?

Thank you.

Ramon Dominguez likes to warm his horses up on their own away from the lead pony. He basically takes them for a nice ride before the race, similar to the way harness horses score down. It's hard to say how much it helps the horse but the rider's success speaks for itself.

[horses721]

You can debate the use of the whip but what was even worse was how soon he stood up before the wire. He almost held second by a neck when he should have had it easily if he sat their and didn't stand up so early. It was much closer than it should have been and this is something he has been guilty of doing in the past.

[john del riccio]

Pandy, John Del,
Would you expand on this, please? What is it they do that's so effective? Why does it ... whatever it is ... work so well? Why, do you think, don't others do it, too? Have you worked this into a betting angle?

Thank you.

Kelso,

When you are at the track live. TRY and make a note before each race of IF a horses warms up or not. You will be shocked. 95% of the horse sthat don't break from a walk run poorly. the exceptions I have seen are the unrateable speed horses.

After you do that, TRY and make not of how FAST & how LONG they warm up for. Look up the difference between canter, jog, and gallop. A 1/2 mile min
is a good cutoff for for distance (ie at least a 1/2 mile).

Dominguez warms a horse up well, gets a feel for what hes got and gives the horse a chance to feel what Dominguez is telling him (via his hands).

I would not blink an eye if I can get him to ride for me. No instructions.
Only info about the idiosyncracies of the animal.

John

[asH]

Kelso,

Dominguez warms a horse up well, gets a feel for what hes got and gives the horse a chance to feel what Dominguez is telling him (via his hands).

I would not blink an eye if I can get him to ride for me. No instructions.
Only info about the idiosyncracies of the animal.

John
He rides all of his races the same; off pace, move at the top of the stretch. I dont believe he has a clock in his head; his 'trait' makes him susceptible to front horses going all the way on him . His long whip movement costs his horse lengths and rhythm in close stretch battles. And in my opinion he should have been 35%+ at the Aqu meet with the horses he had coupled with the level of competition. These are observations, the last is opinion...I have capitalized on a number of occasions, and once posted my pick and reason (stated) when he was on a heavy fav. Again, these are my observations of Dominiguez...oh the good stuff; he will always have his horse in a great position to win, which is why his horses get over bet in a lot of situations.

[jotb]

Hello:

I wonder if the public that wagered on this horse had to vent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN4lgGm2zeg&feature=related


Joe

[joanied]

Pat Day beat me many times without a whip............and my guy was wailing on my horse............ :bang:

Pat Day was another with quiet hands and a ton of patience...which also gave him that magic clock in his head... you gotta know what the front runners are going in to be as patient as he was.

[GaryG]

Pat Day was another with quiet hands and a ton of patience...which also gave him that magic clock in his head... Well, most of the time he did. However, he wasn't known as Pat (Wait All) Day for nothing. Still he was one of the best and a fine gentleman.

[joanied]

Joe,

That clip is almost a:lol: comedy...for sure a :jump: classic!!
Beautiful.

[Kelso]

After you do that, TRY and make not of how FAST & how LONG they warm up for. Look up the difference between canter, jog, and gallop. A 1/2 mile min
is a good cutoff for for distance (ie at least a 1/2 mile).



John, Pandy ... thanks very much for your insights.

John ... is slower or faster, or perhaps a mix, the better indicator for the 1/2 mile (minimum) warmup?

Less than a month and I'll be paying closer attention to warmups at MTH! :jump: