Even babies going an 1/8th aren't protected by Polytrack....

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, I know, I know, another Polytrack bash thread....

No, I'm not bashing. Just pointing out instance after instance where this surface that is supposed to "save" horses couldn't save even a never-raced 2-year-old going a measly eighth....

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=44474&source=rss

Condolences to the owners....

[Grits]

We’re sorry it happened, and we commiserate with her (Thomas),” said Geoffrey Russell, Keeneland’s director of sales. “It was a freak thing considering what he fractured, his tibia.”

Yeah, Russell, they're all freak accidents aren't they?

If you and Keeneland are so sorry it happened, why don't you and all your golddigging pinhookers like Thomas, Nick DeMeric, Hartley, etc, etc, stop pushing two year olds to get under .10 flat. Wouldn't wanna do that, all of you might lose an almighty dollar.

Don't give a tinker's damn for the colt or the filly's welfare, just so they give you a huge, few month's markup, when they enter the pavilion and the gavel drops on them.

Requiring this kind of run out of 2 year olds should be outlawed. Its abusive. The animal is never asked for such again.

What a heartbreak for the animal, trying as hard as it can. So much for the nice stride.

(This one causes a real sore spot!)

[jeebus1083]

Any horse can take a bad step, I don't care if they are running on rubbers, dirt, sand, concrete, etc. When you have a half-ton of weight landing on 4 spindly legs, the stress is sometimes too much to handle, especially with an immature 2YO baby. Us humans take bad steps from time to time and break bones. Fortunately, we can be saved virtually all of the time. Unfortunately for most horses, they are doomed.

[PaceAdvantage]

Any horse can take a bad step, I don't care if they are running on rubbers, dirt, sand, concrete, etc. When you have a half-ton of weight landing on 4 spindly legs, the stress is sometimes too much to handle, especially with an immature 2YO baby. Us humans take bad steps from time to time and break bones. Fortunately, we can be saved virtually all of the time. Unfortunately for most horses, they are doomed.Exactly. Which makes it all the more mind-boggling that those of us who called for a "wait-and-see" approach to adopting artificial surfaces are often branded as cold-hearted handicappers who simply can't make their "speed figures" work on these new "savior" surfaces.

[russowen77]

Just my opinion.

Getting two year olds in training to run those fast f was screwed up more horeses than any surface ever has.

I feel it is akin to getting your Little league pitcher to throw hard breaking pitches consistently and often.

[Tom Barrister]

No surface is going to save underdeveloped horses raced by greedy horsemen who probably beg equally greedy track owners to scrape the track so that thehorse can run an insanely fast fraction.

That said, I believe that most versions of Polytrack have as many, if not more, problems as benefits.

[BombsAway Bob]

Yeah, I know, I know, another Polytrack bash thread....

No, I'm not bashing. Just pointing out instance after instance where this surface that is supposed to "save" horses couldn't save even a never-raced 2-year-old going a measly eighth....

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=44474&source=rss

Condolences to the owners....
horses are going to break down once in a while,
no matter the surface they run on.
I believe asking 2YO's in April to blaze is just insane...
I'd like to see ALL 2YO horseraces delayed until July, personally.
The three-month hiatus may not seem like much, but at that stage in their lifecycle, it certainly would allow for a little more development physically.

[Shenanigans]

Just like most of the posts in this thread pointed out - speed and immaturity is what caused the breakdown. The surface had nothing to do with it.

[Grits]

http://auctions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=44478

This Langfur colt broke the world record this morning at Keeneland. He was bought for $135K last September. Having kept him on the farm in their care for 6 months . . . let's see what the profit margin is when the gavel drops. Keep in mind, these folks certainly have their expenses to recoup; all that's understandable. And this is just one horse they purchased in September.

Folks believe flipping real estate is (was) profitable. It can't hold a candle to flipping horses. Especially two year olds in training.

A few years ago, on a cold, rainy morning at Keeneland, I was in the grandstand, where I saw the worst breakdown I've ever witnessed. I had my binoculars on the colt while he was coming down the stretch, right in front of me. Just as he passed, his front leg snapped. The rider tossed, he kept on running with the shattered leg flayling, wildly, confused. They caught him and held him. And I stayed there, until he was gone, wenched up on the van.

After the breakdown, Keeneland decided to cancel the rest of the breezes for that morning. They deemed the track too unsafe. I don't know that it was the track. I'm inclined to believe instead, the practice--the requirement.

I've never been back to a two year old in training horse sale. I don't care to risk seeing it happen, again, to another baby who has developed soft tissue and muscle mass, but not enough strong bone, yet, to carry what he's pushed to do.

Jess Jackson, owner of Curlin, was right to question ethics in horse sales. Someone has needed too.

[bigmack]

Just like most of the posts in this thread pointed out - speed and immaturity is what caused the breakdown. The surface had nothing to do with it.
It's true.

Careful, PA. You might be taking this "rush to synth's" thing, a bit far.

It pains me to hear of this. How reliable are these sprints in prognosticating future talent? The Green Monkey was a monster for 10 seconds. So much for that.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just like most of the posts in this thread pointed out - speed and immaturity is what caused the breakdown. The surface had nothing to do with it.Then they are simply SELLING a BILL OF GOODS!

The surface has nothing to do with it? We were told by the industry that, basically, the surface has A LOT to do with it! Remember?

NOW you tell me the surface has nothing to do with it? Well then, why the hell did all these tracks rush out and install artificial surfaces? Arlington....Del Mar....all I kept hearing was that the surface had MUCH to do with it....that these new surfaces were so much better for the horse (and jockey of course).

Yet, they can't even prevent an unraced 2yo from breaking down after going a paltry 1/8th of a mile....

What's the real story here?

[PaceAdvantage]

Careful, PA. You might be taking this "rush to synth's" thing, a bit far.After a story like this, and some of the stats listed on this very site, particularly about Arlington, and some of the controversial numbers coming out of California (not to mention the rash of cancellations), I am left simply asking "What was the point?"

[russowen77]

Go to the sales and then see how many of those animals make solid racehorses. Pinhookers are ruling right now and , imho, it is very bad for our sport.

Even if the babies are not breaking down there is a very good chance that permanent damage is being done.

[Bruddah]

After a story like this, and some of the stats listed on this very site, particularly about Arlington, and some of the controversial numbers coming out of California (not to mention the rash of cancellations), I am left simply asking "What was the point?"

It's amazing to me, if the horse breaks down on a "NATURAL" surface, it goes down in the statistics as a surface problem and failure. If the horse goes down on a "SYNTHETIC" surface, it goes down as it could happen to any horse. Two sets of statistics are being kept. If any are actualy being kept at all.

Why the rush to synthetic surfaces. The Blue Bloods want to change Breeding Pedigrees. Folks, it's all about Breeding and Money. As the saying goes and it's certainly correct, The rich get richer. Especially, in this sport. :mad:

[bigmack]

After a story like this, and some of the stats listed on this very site, particularly about Arlington, and some of the controversial numbers coming out of California (not to mention the rash of cancellations), I am left simply asking "What was the point?"
I'll give you that a stampede mantality took hold and more tracks said "order up" than was needed, however...

Using a tragic occurrence - as with this terrible baby breakdown - to illustrate its imperfection or, without breakdowns, leaves the question; When did anyone say it would expunge all breakdowns?

The simple fact is that "the stuff" has diminished breakdowns with measure and the isolated case of the first year of AP - from what I recall - was revisited by someone and aptly shown not to be the determinant factor in similar numbers with that of earth.

[russowen77]

It's amazing to me, if the horse breaks down on a "NATURAL" surface, it goes down in the statistics as a surface problem and failure. If the horse goes down on a "SYNTHETIC" surface, it goes down as it could happen to any horse. Two sets of statistics are being kept. If any are actualy being kept at all.

Why the rush to synthetic surfaces. The Blue Bloods want to change Breeding Pedigrees. Folks, it's all about Breeding and Money. As the saying goes and it's certainly correct, The rich get richer. Especially, in this sport. :mad:

I am not being flippant one lil bit. Why do you think they are so speed oriented??? I am clueless myself.

[PaceAdvantage]

Using a tragic occurrence - as with this terrible baby breakdown - to illustrate its imperfection or that, without breakdowns, leaves the question, when did anyone say it would expunge all breakdowns?Not even I would be foolish enough to imply that a total elimination of breakdowns would be the only thing to get me to sing the praises of artificial surfaces.

Let's eliminate the extremes and settle in the middle of the bell curve for this debate.

[bigmack]

Let's eliminate the extremes and settle in the middle of the bell curve for this debate.
With all due respect, what is the title of the thread and who is judging a surface by its imperfection? If we're debating a rush to surf, throw me a jersey. I think we're on the same team.

Meanwhile, the surf couldn't help this poor sweet baby from its death. Darn shame on any level.

The discussion about baby 8th's? - Now that has some legs.

[Robert Goren]

Any things that takes a step can take a bad one. I twisted an ankle once. They had cut a cowboy boot off me. I just paid $400 for them the week before.

[Robert Goren]

That should kill this thread. I think I hold the record for last posts.

[russowen77]

It will kill a thread just because you have poor taste in boots???
:lol:

[Murph]

Exactly. Which makes it all the more mind-boggling that those of us who called for a "wait-and-see" approach to adopting artificial surfaces are often branded as cold-hearted handicappers who simply can't make their "speed figures" work on these new "savior" surfaces.You have used one issue to make a point for another. Bruddah expounds in kind to rebut. The stress of "show sale" works for baby runners shouldn't be used to rationalize the use of a synthetic track surface, either for or against.

[Murph]

Then they are simply SELLING a BILL OF GOODS!

-kut-
Yet, they can't even prevent an unraced 2yo from breaking down after going a paltry 1/8th of a mile....

What's the real story here?Just because breeders would like to have a safe surface to showcase 2YO talent does not make installing one safe. That goes to your "rush to change" point, Mike. Cal, Fla and KY have embraced polytracks as a way to compete in this arena and dominate (if they can) the North American interest. Once again NYRA has avoided a "rush to change" and compete for this level of business. Similar to lasix usage rules, NYRA may be harmed by NOT taking action sooner and install a "kinder" surface designed for breeders to showcase their top bred horses. PA has a new "poly" facility and a breeding program that is robust and prepared to expand.

East coast interests still want to cling to the old ways, burn fuel oil and go to the race track to swap stories about BigRed and Sunday Silence/ Easy Goer. New opportunities and rewards will come sooner to those who can properly integrate new century technology into their business models. The Dutrow's are running more of their horses in PA every week now.

Murph

[ManeMediaMogul]

There are several reasons to install a synthetic surface, which several members of this forum have already covered, but one that hasn't been mentioned and should be near the top is the ability to train and race in inclement weather.

Nearly four inches of rain fell in the Lexington area on Thursday night and on Friday morning horses were able to gallop and breeze on a safe and consistent surface at Keeneland. The track was in excellent shape for the races, in much better condition than the old dirt surface would have been under the circumstances.

Trainers flock to Keeneland with their Derby horses just to be able to train them on a schedule. Churchill Downs can be a quagmire if rains and they don't want to risk the chance of missing a work or breezing in the gumbo.

Even Curlin is at Keeneland now and believe me, as the most valuable animal on the planet, there is no way Steve Asmussen, who has stables at tracks across the country, would take him there if he didn't think it was the best possible place for him to be.

[Shenanigans]

Then they are simply SELLING a BILL OF GOODS!

The surface has nothing to do with it? We were told by the industry that, basically, the surface has A LOT to do with it! Remember?

NOW you tell me the surface has nothing to do with it? Well then, why the hell did all these tracks rush out and install artificial surfaces? Arlington....Del Mar....all I kept hearing was that the surface had MUCH to do with it....that these new surfaces were so much better for the horse (and jockey of course).

Yet, they can't even prevent an unraced 2yo from breaking down after going a paltry 1/8th of a mile....

What's the real story here?

I'm sorry, but when you can find an advertisement advertising synthetic surfaces the solution to NO MORE BREAKDOWNS, then I will jump on your bandwagon of trashing poly. It was never touted as being the surface that will cure the breakdowns. It was advertised as a more consistent, giving surface.
Just as Mainemedia pointed out, the track was in great shape after all the rain. No dirt track would have held up to that rain without major washouts. Have you ever seen a washout? All the dirt is washed away and you see the base. In turn, the track maintenance has to fill and even that spot out. At the same time, that particular spot still is not consistent with the rest of the track until the harrow has been over it time and time again. Still, when you have a horse gallop over that inconsistent spot, it is very likely for some type of injury to occur. Poly, if properly maintained, stays consistent. A much more forgiving surface. Of course, if any track is improperly maintained, the surface can become unsafe. It sounds like Keeneland is doing a very good job maintaining their track.
Blaming the track for this breakdown just doesn't hold up for me. When you take an immature horse that has maybe been asked to go that fast only one other time in it's life, you are asking for trouble. Speed is the major cause for the breakdown in this case. Everyone there knows that. I seem to recall reading an article on the Thoroughbred Times website about some pinhooker not working his two year olds for the showing, but instead giving them a strong gallop. It was nice to see someone was actually using his brain for once in that part of sales but I highly doubt it will catch on.

[Dave Schwartz]

My prediction would be that artificial surfaces are going away.

Make no mistake - the purpose of artificial surface was not to save the horses. Tracks are about "money" and this was no exception.

Poly was the promise of more and better racing during inclement weather. TP is still cancelling and now they are approaching time to replace after just three years.

Simply put, track owners are not going to spend that kind of money every 4 years or so without making profit from the investment.


If the racing industry was really interested in the welfare of the horse (above the value of money) they would stop racing those two-year olds altogether. Give 'em a chance to grow!


Just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm sorry, but when you can find an advertisement advertising synthetic surfaces the solution to NO MORE BREAKDOWNS, then I will jump on your bandwagon of trashing poly.Well then, I stand corrected. It must have been a dream where the marketers of artificial surfaces and those that support them kept telling me how much safer these surfaces are for horse and rider (meaning, they will PREVENT many of the catastrophic breakdowns we see today), and that IF I did not jump on their bandwagon, I was a heartless bastard who enjoyed seeing horses and riders crash into the earth....and the only reason I complain is because I can't figure out how to cash a bet on these new surfaces....

Silly me...

(I NEVER said nor did I ever even IMPLY that artificial surfaces were advertised as a "NO MORE BREAKDOWN" solution.)

[Cangamble]

How much would Green Monkey have sold for if he did the 1/8th of a mile in 12 and 2?

[Nets]

My prediction would be that artificial surfaces are going away.

Make no mistake - the purpose of artificial surface was not to save the horses. Tracks are about "money" and this was no exception.

Poly was the promise of more and better racing during inclement weather. TP is still cancelling and now they are approaching time to replace after just three years.

Simply put, track owners are not going to spend that kind of money every 4 years or so without making profit from the investment.


If the racing industry was really interested in the welfare of the horse (above the value of money) they would stop racing those two-year olds altogether. Give 'em a chance to grow!


Just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz


Well said!

[Semipro]

It's amazing to me, if the horse breaks down on a "NATURAL" surface, it goes down in the statistics as a surface problem and failure. If the horse goes down on a "SYNTHETIC" surface, it goes down as it could happen to any horse. Two sets of statistics are being kept. If any are actualy being kept at all.

Why the rush to synthetic surfaces. The Blue Bloods want to change Breeding Pedigrees. Folks, it's all about Breeding and Money. As the saying goes and it's certainly correct, The rich get richer. Especially, in this sport. :mad:Save A seat on the wagon for me they need to recycle that shit into somthing that might protect against aids.Back to dirt and yes 2yr olds are asked to do to much:bang: :bang: to early.

[Nets]

Exactly. Which makes it all the more mind-boggling that those of us who called for a "wait-and-see" approach to adopting artificial surfaces are often branded as cold-hearted handicappers who simply can't make their "speed figures" work on these new "savior" surfaces.

PA,

I once posted something insinuating that people bashing synthetic surfaces were possibly doing so because of inability to handicap those surfaces. Just want to state that I definitely do not feel that way anymore. Each week seems to bring more info to diminish the so-called "advantages" of synthetics. The "wait-and-see" approach seems to be the way to go IMO. And as for 2-year olds, let the babies grow before making them run so fast. Surely good horsemen can judge possible purchases by more than just speed.

Gary

[cj]

The simple fact is that "the stuff" has diminished breakdowns with measure and the isolated case of the first year of AP - from what I recall - was revisited by someone and aptly shown not to be the determinant factor in similar numbers with that of earth.

You keep stating this as fact when it is pretty far from that.

[ManeMediaMogul]

My prediction would be that artificial surfaces are going away.

Make no mistake - the purpose of artificial surface was not to save the horses. Tracks are about "money" and this was no exception.

Poly was the promise of more and better racing during inclement weather. TP is still cancelling and now they are approaching time to replace after just three years.

Simply put, track owners are not going to spend that kind of money every 4 years or so without making profit from the investment.


If the racing industry was really interested in the welfare of the horse (above the value of money) they would stop racing those two-year olds altogether. Give 'em a chance to grow!


Just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Polytrack is ALL about the horses. It has nothing to do with money. It would have been way cheaper to keep the same dirt track at Turfway Park. FYI, Turfway hasn't cancelled because of the track conditions, but because of high winds, cold (jocks don't like riding in sub-freezing windchills) and snow storms which affect traveling on the road.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Yeah, I know, I know, another Polytrack bash thread....

No, I'm not bashing. Just pointing out instance after instance where this surface that is supposed to "save" horses couldn't save even a never-raced 2-year-old going a measly eighth....

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=44474&source=rss

Condolences to the owners....

It is very sad to see breakdowns anywhere.All horses are different,Lots break down from the rigors of training and it doesnt matter what surface.Polytrack in my opinion is someones dream to get rich with something thats never been done.Horses do run fast in it but its also like running on ice when its wet, It cant take the water as it floats,cant take the heat as it gets sticky,Cant take the cold as it goes as hard as a candle.This can also be said for dirt tracks.Breakdowns are going to happen,It just to bad that it happened.

[russowen77]

PA,

I once posted something insinuating that people bashing synthetic surfaces were possibly doing so because of inability to handicap those surfaces. Just want to state that I definitely do not feel that way anymore. Each week seems to bring more info to diminish the so-called "advantages" of synthetics. The "wait-and-see" approach seems to be the way to go IMO. And as for 2-year olds, let the babies grow before making them run so fast. Surely good horsemen can judge possible purchases by more than just speed.

Gary

Your last sentance speaks volumes. Much of the sales is going to people who have a lot of money and are very successful, at other buisnesses. Many of the horses now being bred are for the sales, not for the track. It is a very different game than just a few years ago.

[Cangamble]

I wonder if these yearlings can race on Lasix.

[Grits]

The Langfur colt, Hip#7 that broke the track record going in yesterday morning's 2 year old breeze show sold tonight at Keeneland.

Stonestreet Stable's, Jess Jackson, as everyone knows, owner of Curlin, bought him. Steve Asmussen probably has a new trainee in his barn tonight.

A pretty nice return for those who bought him for 135K in September, and brought back him this week.

According to the site results:

Hip Number: 7
Buyer Name: Stonestreet Stable
Horse: GR/RO, C Langfuhr-Coral Sea
Sale price: $700,000

[russowen77]

The Langfur colt, Hip#7 that broke the track record going in yesterday morning's 2 year old breeze show sold tonight at Keeneland.

Stonestreet Stable's, Jess Jackson, as everyone knows, owner of Curlin, bought him. Steve Asmussen probably has a new trainee in his barn tonight.

A pretty nice return for those who bought him for 135K in September, and brought back him this week.

According to the site results:

Hip Number: 7
Buyer Name: Stonestreet Stable
Horse: GR/RO, C Langfuhr-Coral Sea
Sale price: $700,000
A pinhookers delight for sure. :)

[JustRalph]

Somebody fill me in? What does it cost to take care of that horse, training and everything from September to April ?

I have no idea about boarding or training horses etc...........?

[Semipro]

It is very sad to see breakdowns anywhere.All horses are different,Lots break down from the rigors of training and it doesnt matter what surface.Polytrack in my opinion is someones dream to get rich with something thats never been done.Horses do run fast in it but its also like running on ice when its wet, It cant take the water as it floats,cant take the heat as it gets sticky,Cant take the cold as it goes as hard as a candle.This can also be said for dirt tracks.Breakdowns are going to happen,It just to bad that it happened.Thanks for another moment of sanity.

[russowen77]

Somebody fill me in? What does it cost to take care of that horse, training and everything from September to April ?

I have no idea about boarding or training horses etc...........?

Man, that figure can very widely by whom does the boarding or training.

[PurplePower]

My prediction would be that artificial surfaces are going away.

.........
If the racing industry was really interested in the welfare of the horse (above the value of money) they would stop racing those two-year olds altogether. Give 'em a chance to grow! Regards, Dave Schwartz

Dave, I like you a lot, and I love to listen to your stories of "back in the day" with that gambler's accent of yours. I also enjoyed our discussions at Toga I and your challenging approach to the handicapping game. But, ol' buddy, you are not going to be placed alongside Nostradamis with that prediction. It is the remaining dirt surfaces that will eventually be gone (IMHO of course :) ).

One of the action points of the Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summit held at Keeneland on March 17-18 was to address the issue of two-year olds working fast times at in-training sales. The WSS produced the first national reporting database for catastrophic injuries and reported at WSS II that the results were not dramatically different in favor of AWS. California was not included in that data or it would have been skewed in favor of the AWS. This data does not include injuries that do not cause the horse to be put down, but may be career ending. It also does not include differences in lost training days due to minor injuries. Those seem to be in favor of AWS, but we are comparing different years and there is no way to compare what would have happened at Turfway this past winter, for example, if the track had been dirt instead of poly.

The forerunner of the PA forum (bunch of old handicappers sitting around a wood burning stove at the local spit and spat) were convinced that there was no need to rush to building cars. "By Jiminy cricket, we can get there just as fast on ole' Betsy as we can in them contraptions that just get stuck in the mud" -- or to building airplanes -- or to any number of things including computers and the internet.

I haven't heard if they did a necropsy on the 2-year old, but a tibia break is as likely to be from a congential lesion (such as an OCD) as from either the surface or the fact that he was working too young. (If it was an OCD it would have happened when he started working as a 3-year old or 4-year old.)

One last thing and then I am going get a nap so I can check out some two-year olds in the morning before I head to airport to go teach grooms at Philly Park and Penn National starting this weekend - there are more horses suffering from starvation and neglect than from breaking down on a racetrack.

[PaceAdvantage]

I haven't heard if they did a necropsy on the 2-year old, but a tibia break is as likely to be from a congential lesion (such as an OCD) as from either the surface or the fact that he was working too young. (If it was an OCD it would have happened when he started working as a 3-year old or 4-year old.) Folks who continue to post about how horses are going to break down no matter what are missing the point I was trying to make here...

Anyone who has even a passing involvement in this game knows horses will ALWAYS break down, even if they are running on a track made of feather-filled pillows.

That's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to show that all the benefits touted about AWS when it comes to "horse safety" couldn't prevent a tragedy such as this from occurring, even given the fact that it is highly unlikely that an unraced 2yo going a measly 1/8th will break down.

And just let me say Reid, it's good to see your name up in lights here on the board again....:ThmbUp:

[ManeMediaMogul]

Somebody fill me in? What does it cost to take care of that horse, training and everything from September to April ?

I have no idea about boarding or training horses etc...........?

It would probably be around 25,000 to 28,000 plus a 5% commision to the consignor and 5% commision to the sales company.

[46zilzal]

Over here, at Leicester last week, 2 year olds are already running 5 furlongs. It is a tougher breed here:NO DRUGS to hide problems.

[Cangamble]

Somebody fill me in? What does it cost to take care of that horse, training and everything from September to April ?

I have no idea about boarding or training horses etc...........?
I did a post comparing cost at Woodbine versus Fort Erie:
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2008/01/time-for-owners-of-thoroughbreds-in.html

I hear the price of feed has gone up since I wrote the post.

[JustRalph]

I did a post comparing cost at Woodbine versus Fort Erie:
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2008/01/time-for-owners-of-thoroughbreds-in.html

I hear the price of feed has gone up since I wrote the post.

Great...........thanks!