Great Article About Banning Lasix By Finley

[Cangamble]

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=3324301&campaign=rsssrch&source=horse+racing

[Niko]

Thanks for the link, excellent!

[Imriledup]

The next time a trainer is interviewed and he says that he's all for cleaning up the game....have the interviewer ask that trainer if he would take ALL his horses off lasix and run them clean and see what that trainer says.

If you are SO against it, why not race all your horses clean?

Cmon, make a statement. Lets have a top, well known, high profile trainer come out and say that he's taking all his horses off lasix and he's challenging all the other trainers to do the same thing to clean up the game.

[Semipro]

Take horses off lasix good idea let-um bleed:rolleyes:

[Shenanigans]

Take horses off lasix good idea let-um bleed:rolleyes:

More than half of the horses on Lasix never bled a day in their life.

[highnote]

Take horses off lasix good idea let-um bleed:rolleyes:


NY banned Lasix for years. They had to give in because many other jurisdictions were allowing it.

If a horse is trained properly then it should be less likely to bleed.

Maybe a horse that bleeds should not be running and only horses that don't bleed should make it to the breeding shed. This would result in a more stoutly bred horse that is able to withstand the rigors of racing.

One reason why German bred horses are so popular now is because of the strict rules of the German jockey club. They have focused their breeding on horses that can stay route distances.

[GameTheory]

They could never do this quickly because Lasix dependency is now bred into the horses, but if they set a ban date 5 or 6 years out for the breeders to adjust they could do it without hurting anyone's economics (except for vets) very much. In the first year of the ban, no Lasix in 2 year olds, in the next year 3 year olds, and after that no Lasix for anyone. Pretty much all the current horses would be out of the game by then. But current horses that are prospective sires and dams will need to drop Lasix now to show their good genes.

As long as the rules are consistent, then a level playing field is a level playing field -- it doesn't matter that the level would be different from today -- undoubtedly it would be better for the breed and made it harder to mask other illegal drugs. (Gotta get rid of bute too.)

[Kelso]

Take horses off lasix good idea let-um bleed:rolleyes:


Nope ... don't let 'em run.

[theiman]

They could never do this quickly because Lasix dependency is now bred into the horses, but if they set a ban date 5 or 6 years out for the breeders to adjust they could do it without hurting anyone's economics (except for vets) very much. In the first year of the ban, no Lasix in 2 year olds, in the next year 3 year olds, and after that no Lasix for anyone. Pretty much all the current horses would be out of the game by then. But current horses that are prospective sires and dams will need to drop Lasix now to show their good genes.

As long as the rules are consistent, then a level playing field is a level playing field -- it doesn't matter that the level would be different from today -- undoubtedly it would be better for the breed and made it harder to mask other illegal drugs. (Gotta get rid of bute too.)

It seems Mr. Finleys article disputes your contention that they could never remove lasix so quickly, by listing all of the horses that showed immediate success in Dubai.
Bleeders shouldnt race.
Nobody can tell me that a breed has gone to almost 99% dependant on Lasix. Can you imagine if I used a similar analogy in humans that 99% of humans now need inhalers in order to breathe?

I cringed the day that NY finally gave in and allowed Lasix.

Why is it the the worlds racing industries survive without it? Maybe the air in the USA is really that bad?

[GameTheory]

It seems Mr. Finleys article disputes your contention that they could never remove lasix so quickly, by listing all of the horses that showed immediate success in Dubai.
Bleeders shouldnt race.Agreed, they shouldn't race. But you still have to be fair about it if you ban it. If I just paid a lot of money for a young horse or for sire fees to breed a horse that I suspect will run well with Lasix but not without, and they ban it suddenly tomorrow that wouldn't be very fair. You can't punish people for doing what's allowed within the rules even if it is bad rule...

[Steve 'StatMan']

How many people in the U.S. need Eyeglasses or Contact Lenses, or have had corrective eye surgery to eliminate that need? I've worn glasses since age 7, I was born in 1959. Most adults I have know need them, and many teens I've met, certainly many of my fellow teens of the 1970's needed them. I don't want to stray off topic - but genetic problems can be pretty big in subgroups. Although I don't think many wild horses bleed thru their noses, swallow their tounges, or displace their soft palates, bow their tendons, etc., and if they do so while being chased by a predator, they likely become dinner & out of their regional gene pool.

[PaceAdvantage]

More than half of the horses on Lasix never bled a day in their life.This is true.

[cj]

No trainer is going to voluntarily stop using Lasix. It gives a competitive advantage. Even horses that don't bleed run faster with Lasix than without.

[Shenanigans]

How many people in the U.S. need Eyeglasses or Contact Lenses, or have had corrective eye surgery to eliminate that need? I've worn glasses since age 7, I was born in 1959. Most adults I have know need them, and many teens I've met, certainly many of my fellow teens of the 1970's needed them. I don't want to stray off topic - but genetic problems can be pretty big in subgroups. Although I don't think many wild horses bleed thru their noses, swallow their tounges, or displace their soft palates, bow their tendons, etc., and if they do so while being chased by a predator, they likely become dinner & out of their regional gene pool.

It is true that breathing problems in horses can be genetic. One of the top stallions of the past few decades is known to throw bad breathers and his sons do the same.
Not to stray off topic here but a horse can not anatomically "swallow" their tounges. That's always been a misconception among the average bettor as to why a horse gets a toungue tie for a race.

[theiman]

How many people in the U.S. need Eyeglasses or Contact Lenses, or have had corrective eye surgery to eliminate that need? I've worn glasses since age 7, I was born in 1959. Most adults I have know need them, and many teens I've met, certainly many of my fellow teens of the 1970's needed them. I don't want to stray off topic - but genetic problems can be pretty big in subgroups. Although I don't think many wild horses bleed thru their noses, swallow their tounges, or displace their soft palates, bow their tendons, etc., and if they do so while being chased by a predator, they likely become dinner & out of their regional gene pool.

Eye glasses or contacts are not a drug taken internally.

Also the percentage who needs them grows as we get older, but that is the nature of the degeneration of our eyes. You said many needed them as teens, yet I am a similar age as you and remember many more didnt need them. In fact I looked at my 6th grade class picture and out of a class of 32 kids only 5 had glasses, and I assure you none were wearing contacts back in the mid 60's. The key analogy in this comparison of horses and lasix to humans and glasses is that 99% of the humans, at the equivalent of a 2 or 3 year old horse, dont need assistance while 99% of horses are using lasix. I dont know when lasix was first used as an approved treatment for bleeders to race, but now the entire breed needs it? How long could it have been 30-40 years ago?

[Semipro]

More than half of the horses on Lasix never bled a day in their life.What do you do with the half that does not run-um. I don't care for 4 horse fields.

[Figman]

New York permitted furosomide (lasix or salix) when Dr. Jerry Bilinski, DVM was Chairman of the Board of the New York Racing and Wagering Board in 1995. He didn't last too long....... but lasix did, as Dr. Bilinski ended up doing all his fellow New York vets a favor.

[46zilzal]

Its the combination of an NSAID (promotes bleeding) and subsequently the furosemide inactivated by prostaglandin release that is the problem. Makes no sense pharmacologically.

From The Throroughbred Times

The empirical use of Lasix is not only without merit but may be dangerous, for it lulls the patients principles into complacency while the true nature of the horses complaint is left undetected and unresolved, his racing potential unachieved.
We must bear uppermost in mind that:

1. Lasix does not prevent trauma, inflammation, or contusion.
2. It is not an anticoagulant as some have suggested.
3. The amount of blood lost in most uncomplicated EIPH episodes is inconsequential.
4. The diuresis initiated by prerace Lasix does cause some loss of electrolytes and total body fluid at the time of the race when those factors are most needed.
5. All body processes function on the system of osmosis the passage of a less dense fluid through a more dense fluid or membrane. Osmosis can only operate efficiently when the fluid and electrolytic balances in the blood are at optimum levels.
6. The diuresis caused by Lasix upsets those delicate balances. The body tries to respond in order to reestablish the optimum levels in the blood and to achieve equistasis by calling on contributions from other body tissues, thereby leaving the donor tissues depleted in whole or in part.
7. It is this tampering with the horses normal body function which adversely affects the racing performance of many horses to which Lasix has been administered prerace. This is especially true in the finely tuned stakes horse. The saddest part of the whole problem is that there has been very little comprehensive, clinical monitoring of the Lasix-treated horses in racing. Some get the one- or two-race enhancing effect of Lasix, while others suffer serious challenges to their physiologic balances and racing performance.
The untoward physiologic changes sometimes effected by Lasix are most often subtle very subtle but very insidious. So far as performance is concerned, Lasix has proven to be a double-edged sword, for it often diminishes performance.


There is also some less known research that suggests that Lasix may release any one of several different prostaglandins from the kidney, varying from horse to horse, which suggests a variability in the responses elicited by Lasix in different horses.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/q024wv1706523144/
The study indicated that pentoxifylline has potential therapeutic applications for improving microvascular blood flow but that furosemide may have adverse effects on blood flow.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...56C0A966958260
The study, performed on 655 race horses at Philadelphia Park in 1988 and 1989, was conducted by a team from the University of Pennsylvania led by Dr. Corinne Sweeney and Dr. Lawrence A. Soma. Their conclusion was that furosemide ''had questionable efficacy for prevention of the hemorrhaging'' and called its use as a bleeding remedy a ''common misconception."

Using three different speed-handicapping methods to gauge how much faster horses could run a mile after being treated with Lasix, the study found an improvement of from .07 to 0.1 seconds in colts; from 0.42 to 0.79 seconds in fillies and from 1.08 to 1.60 seconds in geldings. (ONLY statistically significant in geldings)

[Wiley]

What do you do with the half that does not run-um. I don't care for 4 horse fields.
Maybe the horses that don't need lasix will fill the gap by having more starts per year as opposed to the huge drop since the advent of lasix, per article, 10.22 average starts 1970, 6.31 now. Field size has also decreased during this time period, 8.62 to 8.17. I realize there other things in play here besides lasix but it's contributions to these numbers appears evident.

I've been of the understanding that 'true' bleeders will and can continue to race without medication but the time off between races and how they are trained needs to be adjusted, maybe Tom McShell can add more here?
To me lasix's ability to mask other drugs in the system is just as critical in trying to rid it from the sport. Nice article.

[Semipro]

How about it T.M. always like your insights on such issues.

[Shenanigans]

What do you do with the half that does not run-um. I don't care for 4 horse fields.

I'm not suggesting anything in that post as what to do with the other half. What I was pointing out is that most of the horses running on Lasix never bled. To put a horse on Lasix a trainer usually has to get the vet to say the horse bled and needs Lasix (at least that's how it use to be). The rules have become extremely lax and (obviously) there doesn't have to be any legitimate reason to put a horse on Lasix other than "to level the playing field."

[Semipro]

I'm not suggesting anything in that post as what to do with the other half. What I was pointing out is that most of the horses running on Lasix never bled. To put a horse on Lasix a trainer usually has to get the vet to say the horse bled and needs Lasix (at least that's how it use to be). The rules have become extremely lax and (obviously) there doesn't have to be any legitimate reason to put a horse on Lasix other than "to level the playing field."I don't care what they do with lasix as long as the playing field is level but what's to happen when the favorite loses and crosses the wire with blood slinging from its nostrils. If the powers to be set date to ban lasix say first of August,Curlin loses BC because of bleeding what kind of public outcry(obviously) would happen.

[Shenanigans]

I don't care what they do with lasix as long as the playing field is level but what's to happen when the favorite loses and crosses the wire with blood slinging from its nostrils. If the powers to be set date to ban lasix say first of August,Curlin loses BC because of bleeding what kind of public outcry(obviously) would happen.

I don't think I mentioned anywhere in my posts calling for a ban on Lasix. What I do feel needs to be done is to make the lax rules more strict. No horse should be running on Lasix without a history of bleeding. Of course then, you do have the arguement of a horse on Lasix having an edge on the other horses. That's not always the case - I have seen some ugly accidents happen to horses due to being on Lasix. Maybe banning the drug all together isn't a bad idea. The horse that runs across the finish line with blood coming out of it's nostrils will need to be shelved, given time to heal or just not run anymore. One of the things wrong with the breed is that we are masking all these problems with drugs. Maybe if we quit masking everything, it will weed out the weak. With the technology and advances in equine nutrition, more and more we are finding feed supplements that help with bleeders. Unfortunately, a Lasix shot is still the cheapest way to go.

[DJofSD]

If a horse is trained properly then it should be less likely to bleed.

I'm curious to know what is incorrect with the current training methods.

The implication is trainers are doing something wrong. If they could add, change or drop some part of the regiment that would reduce and/or eliminate bleeding, what is it?

[Semipro]

I don't think I mentioned anywhere in my posts calling for a ban on Lasix. What I do feel needs to be done is to make the lax rules more strict. No horse should be running on Lasix without a history of bleeding. Of course then, you do have the arguement of a horse on Lasix having an edge on the other horses. That's not always the case - I have seen some ugly accidents happen to horses due to being on Lasix. Maybe banning the drug all together isn't a bad idea. The horse that runs across the finish line with blood coming out of it's nostrils will need to be shelved, given time to heal or just not run anymore. One of the things wrong with the breed is that we are masking all these problems with drugs. Maybe if we quit masking everything, it will weed out the weak. With the technology and advances in equine nutrition, more and more we are finding feed supplements that help with bleeders. Unfortunately, a Lasix shot is still the cheapest way to go.First sorry for the assumption and you have some good points.DJ also has a very valid case.

[Gallop58]

How about conditioned races for Non-Lasix and load the purses for participation? Money talks and it seems this might be the only way to wean North America off it's drug habit.

Lasix to me is racings smoking.... If it were invented in todays climate and knowledge base, it would never be legalized.

[DJofSD]

How about conditioned races for Non-Lasix and load the purses for participation? Money talks and it seems this might be the only way to wean North America off it's drug habit.

I was thinking the same thing.

I can see it now: allowance conditions - 1st time racing without LASIX; non-winner of a race without LASIX since such-and-such date; restricted to horses having won all races without LASIX.

Of coarse, to enforce things, the runners would need to be in the detention barn at least 24 hours before post time.

[cj]

Think about this for a minute. Keeneland just ran their first 2yo baby race at 4.5f. Not one horse had ever raced before. This is one of the top meetings in the country and features some of the best bred horses you will find.

Every single horse debuted with Lasix. Sad, sad commentary on the condition of the sport.

[njcurveball]

How about conditioned races for Non-Lasix and load the purses for participation? Money talks and it seems this might be the only way to wean North America off it's drug habit.

.


This is the smartest post I have seen on this board about Lasix. And the simplest solution. Many races today have added money if a state bred wins. Simply make the same "deal" for a horse running clean.

Simple and effective! Owners will follow the money as the poster said above!

Nnice job! :ThmbUp:

[Semipro]

How about conditioned races for Non-Lasix and load the purses for participation? Money talks and it seems this might be the only way to wean North America off it's drug habit.

Lasix to me is racings smoking.... If it were invented in todays climate and knowledge base, it would never be legalized.Just when I thinking solving lasix problem was totally unrealistic you actually came up with viable idea great post.

[GameTheory]

How about conditioned races for Non-Lasix and load the purses for participation? Money talks and it seems this might be the only way to wean North America off it's drug habit.

Lasix to me is racings smoking.... If it were invented in todays climate and knowledge base, it would never be legalized.That is a great idea and would be the natural thing to do while transitioning to an outright ban...

[Kelso]

Think about this for a minute. Keeneland just ran their first 2yo baby race at 4.5f. Not one horse had ever raced before. This is one of the top meetings in the country and features some of the best bred horses you will find.

Every single horse debuted with Lasix. Sad, sad commentary on the condition of the sport.


Dynamite point, CJ; telling and concise. I hope you'll use it as a letter to DRF, with a copy to NTRA.

[NY BRED]

Excuse me, but aren't/weren't drugs prohibited during the huge
races last week in Dubai??

However important these drugs are in America, quite a few of our
superstars ran extremely well "x" meds :)

[Shenanigans]

Excuse me, but aren't/weren't drugs prohibited during the huge
races last week in Dubai??

However important these drugs are in America, quite a few of our
superstars ran extremely well "x" meds :)

Not to mention it the temp wasn't exactly cool in Dubai. Sometimes high temp can take a toll on bad breathers.
It's just proof that there are too many horses on Lasix that don't need to be.

[DJofSD]

Revisit the idea of a bonus involving the Triple Crown. But instead of it being like the now defunct Visa Challenge, make it a reward for any horse that runs in all three TC races and does so without LASIX. If multiple runners complete the challenge have a schedule assigning point values to finishing positions and pay out to all on a pro-rated basis.

[Tom]

Think about this for a minute. Keeneland just ran their first 2yo baby race at 4.5f. Not one horse had ever raced before. This is one of the top meetings in the country and features some of the best bred horses you will find.

Every single horse debuted with Lasix. Sad, sad commentary on the condition of the sport.

I think they count the bleeding at birth.:rolleyes:

[Gallop58]

After dwelling on an earlier idea in this thread, (the idea of the non-Lasix conditions) for races, one must agree that it is likely practically impossible and could only be done from the top down. Just too much history, need (bleeding horses) and infrastructure to change it easily.
In a silly moment of feeling self important a while back, I fired off an email to Finley , a major track racing sec and a racing commission to gauge their response.

A asked the racing sec if there was even a remote chance of being able to write a race like this, and the basic feedback was, to paraphrase ' I hear you and wouldn't that be nice, young naiive Jedi but I don't think I could even fill one race if I tried it' The 'our horses can't run without it and we are doing it for everybody's well being' slant was really strong (as I would have expected and frankly I think it's truthful in this day and age).

In short I still like the idea, but unless you can do it with a carrot- a big carrot ($$$$) instead of a stick, it will never happen. The one time economic impact of a change in the rules pretty much precludes any change to the status quo.

Interestingly, no response from the racing commission I solicited for feedback.

I still don't get why some struggling track who has nothing to lose and is about to shutter their doors anyway, doesn't just get some free publicity by offering a series of races, no lasix or any drugs allowed, and throw in whatever other conditions/distances they want, and see what happens. Like a claiming crown sans any drugs.
The worst is that it doesn't fill and then they can get some more free pub by proclaiming in the horse press how they tried, "but no one is interested, shame all the talkers who aren't really walking the walk, the internet yappers who theorize behind their laptops and don't have muck on their boots", etc. etc...
Anyway, I still think this has legs if there's a will, though it's likely easier to ban steroids than to make a dent in the lasix issue.

[jcrabboy]

Simply strengthening and enforcing the current rules for Lasix use would be a big step forward. And, he said selfishly, first and second time lasix would become a profitable angle once more.

I played Mountaineer monday night, there were 3 horses on the entire card who ran without medication. Only one who was receiving Lasix for the first time. This scenario plays out at most, if not all, lower class tracks.

Mountaineer would have had a card with one race and 3 horses in the field if you tried to run non-lasix conditions.

I think it is a great SOMEDAY idea, but a good start, right now, would be tighter rules and enforcement for Lasix use.

My Pet Peeve: Racing 2 year olds (that's just too damn young).

Jimmie

[1st time lasix]

Then i would never get to post! :(