Drugs

[john del riccio]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=44294&source=rss

and Mullins got another positive too.

I wonder what would happen in our beloved game was held up to the standards they put forth in Hong Kong ?

The answer is probably that we'd have about 25% OF THE TRAINERS LEFT STANDING !

John

[JustRalph]

This shit drives me crazy. I actually thought O'Neill was a decent guy

[bigmack]

Somebody tell me the integrity that O'Neill has. I've had this argument with several people out here in CA and I can't figure how they can defend this garbage.

A CHRB complaint is pending against O’Neill, who previously had a TCO2 violation at Hollywood Park in 2006. A high level of carbon dioxide in a horse's bloodstream indicates the presence of alkalizing agents, commonly known as milkshaking.

I say he gets a milkshake jammed down his throat as a lesson. What does it take to have a zero tolerance policy? The game is a disgrace with this idiocy.

[ManeMediaMogul]

You can get a high TCO2 from baking soda, a common additive in a racehorse's feed. The level needn't be from a milkshake.

Horses secluded in stalls often have stomach and ulcer issues. Baking soda (like alka seltzer) and activated charcoal often help to settle a horse's stomach.

Don't jump to conclusions until you know the animal and the circumstances.

[bigmack]

Don't jump to conclusions until you know the animal and the circumstances.
How will that ever take place?

[CryingForTheHorses]

You can get a high TCO2 from baking soda, a common additive in a racehorse's feed. The level needn't be from a milkshake.

Horses secluded in stalls often have stomach and ulcer issues. Baking soda (like alka seltzer) and activated charcoal often help to settle a horse's stomach.

Don't jump to conclusions until you know the animal and the circumstances.

With todays medications,Baking soda and charcoal are very old time remedys,I myself have used baking soda but stopped several years ago when warned by my vet.I now use Gastro gard,Ulcer aid and another is made by finishline called gastro U7,These are perfectly legal and with the exception of Gastro Gard,That can be given up to the morning before the race.

[Shenanigans]

You can get a high TCO2 from baking soda, a common additive in a racehorse's feed. The level needn't be from a milkshake.

Horses secluded in stalls often have stomach and ulcer issues. Baking soda (like alka seltzer) and activated charcoal often help to settle a horse's stomach.

Don't jump to conclusions until you know the animal and the circumstances.

There is NO ONE stupid enough to use baking soda as an ulcer remedy on the racetrack. Just what McSchell Racing pointed out, there are too many ulcer medicines that work better and don't test positive. Any trainer that uses that excuse is lying. Anyone that believes him gets the Gullible Gulliver award of the year.:rolleyes:
Here's my conclusion I am jumping to: O'Neil used the milkshake to mask another illegal drug he was using.;)

[ManeMediaMogul]

Gastroguard is a great ulcer medication, yet is is very expensive - one of the reasons the vets like to sell it like candy. In our whimsical business, scoping for ulcers became the hot practice about nine years ago and lots of horses were put on Gastroguard at $1500 a month. Baking soda is less than a buck a box and you buy it at Kroeger so the vet can't mark it up. It might be old-fashioned, but it works and is all natural.

[Shenanigans]

Gastroguard is a great ulcer medication, yet is is very expensive - one of the reasons the vets like to sell it like candy. In our whimsical business, scoping for ulcers became the hot practice about nine years ago and lots of horses were put on Gastroguard at $1500 a month. Baking soda is less than a buck a box and you buy it at Kroeger so the vet can't mark it up. It might be old-fashioned, but it works and is all natural.

And any trainer using it is stupid and only asking to get a ruling against them. Show horses might be allowed to have the stuff in their systems but racehorse are not, come race day, so why would any trainer take the chance of getting caught? $1500 a month is better than losing the winning purse because of some stupid, cheap alternative.

[ManeMediaMogul]

And any trainer using it is stupid and only asking to get a ruling against them. Show horses might be allowed to have the stuff in their systems but racehorse are not, come race day, so why would any trainer take the chance of getting caught? $1500 a month is better than losing the winning purse because of some stupid, cheap alternative.

Have you ever owned, trained or bred a horse Shenny?

In California, it is $95 a day for training. An extra $200 for shoes, then the vet bill, which, if you have a horse on Gastroguard can run you about $3,000 ($1500 plus the other vet work - bute, lasix, vitamins, deworming, antibiotics etc.) a month. Then, there's 10% for the trainer, 10% for the jock, and 3% for the stable help. If you have a cheap claimer, and win, at those rates you probably have lost money.

You probably think the trainers don't care about their clients money either, because it seems you have a general disdain for guys and gals who get up at 4:00 a.m., 365 days a year to take care of animals, who most of them love and respect.

Ask any decent trainer - and Doug O'Neill certainly qualifies - how it feels when a horse in your care has a catastrophic injury. - How you go around with a pit in your stomach for days. For that matter, ask them how it feels when a fellow trainer's horse breaks down. - How you sometimes have to leave the track and go back to the barn to hug the necks of the horses you train and pray that they stay healthy and sound.

It is easy to pop off on a forum when you have never experienced those things.

For you it seems, it is all about gambling and not horsemanship or animal husbandry and everybody in the sport is a crook. That is unfortunate.

[Nacumi]

MMM, I breed to race, but I'm also a fan, and despise being hoodwinked by the gip trainers, whether betting their horses, betting against them or having the misfortune of running against them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet that's the source of Shenanigans' "popping off", like many others in the game. The players are entitled to be ticked off whether they work with horses or not, because the game is tainted by these guys and it's not fair. Simply put, the bettors are being defrauded, which is why the Feds are watching again, as states adopt steroid regulations. The IHA is subject to scrutiny, and if the boys on the hill don't like how jurisdictions are monitoring their racing games, the simulcast and transport of signals across state lines could be recalled as a result.
I have a very simple solution: full vet disclosure and full trainer disclosure in the programs. Publish what they are using, right alongside the Lasix and the Blinkers keys. (I know of a few trainers in our region who would run out of room on the page, for 'roid stacking alone), but just imagine if they were forced to "unzip" their flies. :p At least everyone would know most of what's up and could make a wager fully informed, or abstain. It's the elephant in the room on the frontsides anyway. Everyone at the local level knows who's getting the best juice, so why not come out publicly? Because they can't admit they don't know how to manage a horse without the Super Secret Sauces, and would rather every patron believe it's brilliant training, not stacking and masking and numbing. And what say does the poor athlete have? None. If it has ulcers, you need to get at the source of the nervousness that's causing the problem: it needs to be treated properly and effectively and have time off, not get pumped full of bicarb that will just numb the pain of the sores and stave off lactic acidosis for another race. It needs to eat naturally, not stuff itself because it's hopped up on steroids.
Trying to "regulate", versus just implementing a full out ban on raceday meds, including legal ones, in every jurisdiction, leaves way too much wiggle room for those in a position to finesse designer cocktails and know exactly at what level you can sneak in to still maximize performance or move a horse up. As you point out, it costs an enormous amount of money, time and energy to raise and train horses. No one is disputing that most horsemen don't cop to the vet's shortcuts and laugh in the face of violations and suspensions. No one will dispute that it hurts terribly when a trainer loses a horse to a fatal injury. It's the arrogance of the few rotten apples that do seem to continually dodge fines, suspensions and other bullets (Biancone getting tossed off two continents MIGHT give a clue that he's not all about husbandry) that have blighted our industry for the rest of us who play by the rules. And the vets are the ones screaming the loudest about losing money, lifestyle, etc., but they should not be running the business. Somehow, they bogarted it away, though.
So I have an even better idea: let the guys who use all the junk run against each other in "medication" jurisdictions, and leave the rest of the playing field to the others. Like the Designated Hitter rule; if you're in the steroid league, you can run in these states. If you're not, come run over here and take your chances in Oz with us, med free. :jump:

[onefast99]

Doug is one of the nicest in the biz today, I'm shocked by this.

[bigmack]

Doug is one of the nicest in the biz today, I'm shocked by this.
Tough to be shocked of something that has happened several times before with him.

[Shenanigans]

Have you ever owned, trained or bred a horse Shenny?

In California, it is $95 a day for training. An extra $200 for shoes, then the vet bill, which, if you have a horse on Gastroguard can run you about $3,000 ($1500 plus the other vet work - bute, lasix, vitamins, deworming, antibiotics etc.) a month. Then, there's 10% for the trainer, 10% for the jock, and 3% for the stable help. If you have a cheap claimer, and win, at those rates you probably have lost money.

You probably think the trainers don't care about their clients money either, because it seems you have a general disdain for guys and gals who get up at 4:00 a.m., 365 days a year to take care of animals, who most of them love and respect.

Ask any decent trainer - and Doug O'Neill certainly qualifies - how it feels when a horse in your care has a catastrophic injury. - How you go around with a pit in your stomach for days. For that matter, ask them how it feels when a fellow trainer's horse breaks down. - How you sometimes have to leave the track and go back to the barn to hug the necks of the horses you train and pray that they stay healthy and sound.

It is easy to pop off on a forum when you have never experienced those things.

For you it seems, it is all about gambling and not horsemanship or animal husbandry and everybody in the sport is a crook. That is unfortunate.

EXCUSE ME??? You don't know JACK about me and what I have done in the industry. Here's a little example: I have busted my hump in this industry for over 20 years. I have worked for good trainers and I have worked for bad trainers. I have galloped, rubbed and walked rats and I have galloped, rubbed and walked classy, hard knocking stakes horses.
I started at the bottom and worked my way to the top - from hot walker to assistant trainer and so forth. I have been at the barn at 4:00 AM and some days not leave until well into the evening. I have galloped cripples that the trainer does not believe me when I tell them their horse is crippled. I have had horses I galloped breakdown with me on their back. I have seen horses I galloped breakdown in races - even after I told the trainer the horse wouldn't make the course. I have rubbed horses until the tips of my fingers were split from being so dry from the shit I put on their legs to "help" them find relief because the asshole trainer doesn't want to stop on them. One horse I galloped was so crippled that when the trainer entered him to run, I didn't go to the races to watch. The horse wins - but the next day couldn't even get up in his stall to walk. You don't think he was juiced? Guess what? The trainer got nailed with a positive, lost the win purse, got slapped with a small fine and went on his merry way.
DON'T tell me I have NEVER experienced any of that. Way more than you know or would ever want to take a days walk in. I promise you I have seen way more horrific breakdowns and injuries than you will ever see in your life time. From the way your post reads you are basing your "facts" from second hand accounts. Well, deary, I have seen the shit first hand and I can tell you NOT every trainer walks in the barn and hugs his horses necks when he witnesses another trainers horse breakdown. What, are you in some kind of fantasy land??? I have every right to "pop off" on this forum. I have seen it all first hand.
As for your first paragraph about all the expenses - if you can't pay to play stay the F off the court. This is a high stakes game that requires huge investments. Cutting corners and spending 50 cents on a box of baking soda to save 10 cents means you need to get the hell out of the game because you are a cheap SOB. Like I said, $1500 a month beats the hell out of getting a nice allowance purse taken away.
BTW, I DON'T gamble and would blow your ass out of the water with my horsemanship knowledge.

[juanepstein]

http://popsci.typepad.com/popsci/images/2007/11/27/shelterbakingsoda_2.jpg
LEGALIZE IT MON!:cool:

[Cangamble]

There is NO ONE stupid enough to use baking soda as an ulcer remedy on the racetrack. Just what McSchell Racing pointed out, there are too many ulcer medicines that work better and don't test positive. Any trainer that uses that excuse is lying. Anyone that believes him gets the Gullible Gulliver award of the year.:rolleyes:
Here's my conclusion I am jumping to: O'Neil used the milkshake to mask another illegal drug he was using.;)
It is pretty well known that trainers will take shots with different medication combos and cover their butt by trying to mask the drugs as well.
I think any trainer that pops at 20% or better should have their horses tested for everything, even when they lose a race.
And I agree with you. Milkshakes happen, though they happened a lot more a few years back.

[Grits]

Regarding your horsemanship knowledge, as an exercise rider, an assistant trainer, a hotwalker, etc. with twenty years experience, its unfortunate that you didn't learn to communicate in a way that would showcase that knowledge, instead of ranting with anger and using filthy language to make your point.

From one woman to another, with twenty years on the backside, you're not a young woman. You should know how to enter a room, and make yourself and your thoughts known in a way that would benefit others, and yourself. Yet you come off as ugly. As if you've something to prove every time someone disagrees with you. You may fair better, and attain greater credibility here if you consider cleaning up your mouth, and quit talking down to a room whose majority is male, and whose knowledge about this sport may well match your own. Like myself though, few have ever sat on the back of single runner. And that, doesn't mean JACK for the most part, when one enjoys and SUPPORTS--WITH WAGERING, the sport of horseracing.

I don't want problems, or to cause them, but Shenanigans your approach is off. Pull up the landing gear, circle, and try again. You have a lot to offer.


EXCUSE ME??? You don't know JACK about me and what I have done in the industry. Here's a little example: I have busted my hump in this industry for over 20 years. I have worked for good trainers and I have worked for bad trainers. I have galloped, rubbed and walked rats and I have galloped, rubbed and walked classy, hard knocking stakes horses.
I started at the bottom and worked my way to the top - from hot walker to assistant trainer and so forth. I have been at the barn at 4:00 AM and some days not leave until well into the evening. I have galloped cripples that the trainer does not believe me when I tell them their horse is crippled. I have had horses I galloped breakdown with me on their back. I have seen horses I galloped breakdown in races - even after I told the trainer the horse wouldn't make the course. I have rubbed horses until the tips of my fingers were split from being so dry from the shit I put on their legs to "help" them find relief because the asshole trainer doesn't want to stop on them. One horse I galloped was so crippled that when the trainer entered him to run, I didn't go to the races to watch. The horse wins - but the next day couldn't even get up in his stall to walk. You don't think he was juiced? Guess what? The trainer got nailed with a positive, lost the win purse, got slapped with a small fine and went on his merry way.
DON'T tell me I have NEVER experienced any of that. Way more than you know or would ever want to take a days walk in. I promise you I have seen way more horrific breakdowns and injuries than you will ever see in your life time. From the way your post reads you are basing your "facts" from second hand accounts. Well, deary, I have seen the shit first hand and I can tell you NOT every trainer walks in the barn and hugs his horses necks when he witnesses another trainers horse breakdown. What, are you in some kind of fantasy land??? I have every right to "pop off" on this forum. I have seen it all first hand.
As for your first paragraph about all the expenses - if you can't pay to play stay the F off the court. This is a high stakes game that requires huge investments. Cutting corners and spending 50 cents on a box of baking soda to save 10 cents means you need to get the hell out of the game because you are a cheap SOB. Like I said, $1500 a month beats the hell out of getting a nice allowance purse taken away.
BTW, I DON'T gamble and would blow your ass out of the water with my horsemanship knowledge.

[Niko]

This might be a good thread to point out some of the disconnect between the hard working horseman and horsewoman and the horse racing fan. Or maybe it's just my perception. In a lot of interviews all I hear is that the horse folk don't think the bettors and fans give a crap about them or their horses and it's ok to do what they want to stay competitive and profit because they work so hard. So screw the bettor, they don't know what it really takes to win and stay ahead. It's gambling, they shouldn't expect to win so they don't really need to know what goes on behind the scenes. Of course there are exceptions to the general observation above.

A lot of horse fans (and no longer fans like some I know) don't trust the trainers or the game because of all the drugs, manipulation, secrecy and bad publicity. What's going to happen to Mullins and O'Neil. Another paid vacation? I think you'll find most horse fans really care about the game AND the horses and are just tired of feeling like they're getting shafted.

And let's bring up the integrity of the pools.

A LOT of people on both sides are frustrated..so what can we do to fix it? Eventually it's up to the executives. Magna is struggling, youbet is struggling..I think TVG is struggling...who else. Who's really winning in the end other than the whales?...maybe time will tell. And I don't blame the whales, why should they turn down a rebate? I wouldn't.

The bettors can stop betting and other than the whales increasing their handle seems like everything but the specialty meets and some places like Tampa have declined. Take out rebates and watch the hammer drop more...

Or horse racing can decide to run a cleaner game, the executives can actually do something instead of paying lip service to the fans and fighting for a bigger share of a smaller pie like they have over the years.

Need to get some more money in the game and make sure it trickles down to all the "lower" level horsemen who work their butt off everyday for next to nothing.
Gotten sidetracked again, I've got to stop this. :faint: I'm done

[Shenanigans]

Regarding your horsemanship knowledge, as an exercise rider, an assistant trainer, a hotwalker, etc. with twenty years experience, its unfortunate that you didn't learn to communicate in a way that would showcase that knowledge, instead of ranting with anger and using filthy language to make your point.

From one woman to another, with twenty years on the backside, you're not a young woman. You should know how to enter a room, and make yourself and your thoughts known in a way that would benefit others, and yourself. Yet you come off as ugly. As if you've something to prove every time someone disagrees with you. You may fair better, and attain greater credibility here if you consider cleaning up your mouth, and quit talking down to a room whose majority is male, and whose knowledge about this sport may well match your own. Like myself though, few have ever sat on the back of single runner. And that, doesn't mean JACK for the most part, when one enjoys and SUPPORTS--WITH WAGERING, the sport of horseracing.

I don't want problems, or to cause them, but Shenanigans your approach is off. Pull up the landing gear, circle, and try again. You have a lot to offer.

Sorry for the "approach and landing" but folks like MediaMogul tend to peeve me with their ideas of other forum members here are only gamblers. Her telling people like me that I have never experienced anything beyond the grandstand struck me the wrong way is all.

[Shenanigans]

This might be a good thread to point out some of the disconnect between the hard working horseman and horsewoman and the horse racing fan. Or maybe it's just my perception. In a lot of interviews all I hear is that the horse folk don't think the bettors and fans give a crap about them or their horses and it's ok to do what they want to stay competitive and profit because they work so hard. So screw the bettor, they don't know what it really takes to win and stay ahead. It's gambling, they shouldn't expect to win so they don't really need to know what goes on behind the scenes. Of course there are exceptions to the general observation above.

A lot of horse fans (and no longer fans like some I know) don't trust the trainers or the game because of all the drugs, manipulation, secrecy and bad publicity. What's going to happen to Mullins and O'Neil. Another paid vacation? I think you'll find most horse fans really care about the game AND the horses and are just tired of feeling like they're getting shafted.

And let's bring up the integrity of the pools.

A LOT of people on both sides are frustrated..so what can we do to fix it? Eventually it's up to the executives. Magna is struggling, youbet is struggling..I think TVG is struggling...who else. Who's really winning in the end other than the whales?...maybe time will tell. And I don't blame the whales, why should they turn down a rebate? I wouldn't.

The bettors can stop betting and other than the whales increasing their handle seems like everything but the specialty meets and some places like Tampa have declined. Take out rebates and watch the hammer drop more...

Or horse racing can decide to run a cleaner game, the executives can actually do something instead of paying lip service to the fans and fighting for a bigger share of a smaller pie like they have over the years.

Need to get some more money in the game and make sure it trickles down to all the "lower" level horsemen who work their butt off everyday for next to nothing.
Gotten sidetracked again, I've got to stop this. :faint: I'm done

You are right. Trainers and most people that work with the horses are not concerned about the bettor and making them happy.

[Grits]

Shenanigans, you have good knowledge, and a fine opportunity by the fact of having years in this business, and having ridden and worked with these animals. This is not something many of us can claim. I hope you're not upset with me, and that you'll continue to add your thoughts for everyone here to read and understand--from someone's whose been on the grounds.

Women in racing is always a fine thing!! Too, they have to struggle to compete with their male counterparts. And struggle, always makes us better individuals.;)

Sorry for the "approach and landing" but folks like MediaMogul tend to peeve me with their ideas of other forum members here are only gamblers. Her telling people like me that I have never experienced anything beyond the grandstand struck me the wrong way is all.

[pedigreeman]

Same song Same verse.

'Recipe book' holds the clue to Phar Lap's death

By Kathy Marks in Sydney
Friday, 25 April 2008

The Independent (UK)

The riddle of the mysterious death of Australia's most famous
racehorse
may have been solved more than 75 years after his death.

Phar Lap probably died as a result of arsenic administered by his own
trainer, rather than being murdered by American gangsters as
Australians
have long believed. That is the conclusion of experts who have studied
a
"recipe book" of tonics used by Phar Lap's trainer, Harry Telford,
which
sold at auction yesterday for close to £18,000.

Among the ingredients the tonics contained were arsenic, strychnine,
belladonna, cocaine and caffeine – given to horses in small
quantities in
the past, as stimulants, before a race.

Phar Lap, a five-year-old chestnut gelding, died at the Menlo Park
Race
Track in California in 1932. He was at the peak of his career, having
won
37 of his 51 races including the 1930 Melbourne Cup, the Australian
equivalent of the Grand National. Two weeks before his sudden and
agonising death, he had won North America's richest race: the Agua
Caliente Handicap in Mexico.

Australians were horrified by the news, and conspiracy theories
involving
foul play abounded. The most enduring one was that "Big Red", as he
was
known, was poisoned by gangsters who – because he appeared to be
unbeatable – feared he would upset their illegal gambling
syndicates.

Phar Lap was not accompanied by Telford on his first trip to the US,
which
was intended to launch him on to the American racing scene. Instead,
Tommy
Woodcock, his stand-in trainer, travelled with him. But Woodcock took
Telford's 82-page handwritten book of tonics with him, and he may have
accidentally given the champion a fatal overdose.

The auctioneer, Charles Leski, said yesterday: "It's the first time
that
we have had, in writing, confirmation that caffeine, cocaine,
belladonna,
strychnine – all of them we think of as poisons – were actually
used by
Harry Telford in the maintenance of his horses.

"In strictly measured doses, and mixed in with other feed, presumably
these served the purpose of being a stimulant and didn't adversely
affect
the horses. But if Phar Lap had been unwell in the trip over to
America,
or if he had been in the hands of more than one person in the US, it's
possible the dosage wasn't strictly adhered to, and it appears he
overdosed on a concoction that was considered good for him."

The notebook, which contains 30 recipes, was bought by the Melbourne
Museum, which has displayed Phar Lap's hide since 1933, as well as his
saddle and other memorabilia. His skeleton is in the Museum of NewZealand, where the Australian-owned racehorse was born and bred. His
massive 14lb heart is in Canberra's National Museum.

The thoroughbred gelding collapsed at his stables soon after
travelling
back to the United States from Mexico. Woodcock found him in severe
pain,
with a high temperature, and a few hours later he died in his
trainer's
arms of internal bleeding. A postmortem examination revealed the
horse's
stomach and intestines were inflamed, which triggered theories that he
had
been poisoned.

Tests in 2006 on a strand on his hair, taken from his hide, suggested
Phar
Lap had ingested a large amount of arsenic about 35 hours before he
died.
But racing experts believe that the arsenic is more likely to have
built
up gradually over a period of time.

In the days before swabbing, it was not uncommon for racehorses to be
fed
small quantities of arsenic, to give them an edge. A popular tonic of
the
day was Fowler's Solution, which was arsenic-based and was
administered to
Phar Lap throughout his racing career. Repeated doses might have
accumulated in his body and eventually proved deadly.

Percy Sykes, a contemporary racehorse trainer, said after the tests in
2006: "I wouldn't be surprised if arsenic was found in every horse in
that
era."

Woodcock admitted on his deathbed in 1985 that the horse might have
died
from consuming an excessive quantity of one of his tonics. The
notebook
represents the first written proof of the ingredients found in the
tonics.

Phar Lap was a source of national pride to Australians during the
Depression and is still regarded as a heroic figure.:bang:

[Imriledup]

Have you ever owned, trained or bred a horse Shenny?

In California, it is $95 a day for training. An extra $200 for shoes, then the vet bill, which, if you have a horse on Gastroguard can run you about $3,000 ($1500 plus the other vet work - bute, lasix, vitamins, deworming, antibiotics etc.) a month. Then, there's 10% for the trainer, 10% for the jock, and 3% for the stable help. If you have a cheap claimer, and win, at those rates you probably have lost money.

You probably think the trainers don't care about their clients money either, because it seems you have a general disdain for guys and gals who get up at 4:00 a.m., 365 days a year to take care of animals, who most of them love and respect.

Ask any decent trainer - and Doug O'Neill certainly qualifies - how it feels when a horse in your care has a catastrophic injury. - How you go around with a pit in your stomach for days. For that matter, ask them how it feels when a fellow trainer's horse breaks down. - How you sometimes have to leave the track and go back to the barn to hug the necks of the horses you train and pray that they stay healthy and sound.

It is easy to pop off on a forum when you have never experienced those things.

For you it seems, it is all about gambling and not horsemanship or animal husbandry and everybody in the sport is a crook. That is unfortunate.

What does owning, training or having bred a horse have to do with a person having a qualified opinion? As many good, honest and hard working trainers that are out there that would never knowingly cheat, there are plenty of slimeballs looking to take an edge any way they can. Unfortunate part of this business, but we don't need a doctorate in horse breeding or training in order to state that feeling.

[Gallop58]

Regarding initial item in this thread:

What ever happened to the "publish the TCO2 levels" movement? Wasn't there a threat to withhold pace figs for a circuit as a cattle prod to get actual test #'s published? Would be interesting to see if trainers are always near the fuzzy limit, or whether the +ve was a real oddball.

KH

[Track Phantom]

Very ineteresting thread. Lots of passionate opinions. I would like to offer mine.

First off, I've been following horse racing religously since 1986. I'm fascinated by the handicapping part of the game, having 'capped for the public off and on throughout the years. Whether this "qualifies" me to have an opinion is up to subjective viewpoint.

It is blantantly clear to anyone who studies these figures consistently that certain trainers are accomplishing things that are virtually unexplanable.

It is really sad. I could never understand how opposing trainers can survive competing against some of these guys. I guess that is why we see more 6 horse fields with Assmussen, Pletcher, Zito, Pletcher, Assmussen and some non descript trainer whose horse will run last.

[Shenanigans]

Same song Same verse.

'Recipe book' holds the clue to Phar Lap's death

By Kathy Marks in Sydney
Friday, 25 April 2008

The Independent (UK)

The riddle of the mysterious death of Australia's most famous
racehorse
may have been solved more than 75 years after his death.

Phar Lap probably died as a result of arsenic administered by his own
trainer, rather than being murdered by American gangsters as
Australians
have long believed. That is the conclusion of experts who have studied
a
"recipe book" of tonics used by Phar Lap's trainer, Harry Telford,
which
sold at auction yesterday for close to £18,000.

Among the ingredients the tonics contained were arsenic, strychnine,
belladonna, cocaine and caffeine – given to horses in small
quantities in
the past, as stimulants, before a race.

Phar Lap, a five-year-old chestnut gelding, died at the Menlo Park
Race
Track in California in 1932. He was at the peak of his career, having
won
37 of his 51 races including the 1930 Melbourne Cup, the Australian
equivalent of the Grand National. Two weeks before his sudden and
agonising death, he had won North America's richest race: the Agua
Caliente Handicap in Mexico.

Australians were horrified by the news, and conspiracy theories
involving
foul play abounded. The most enduring one was that "Big Red", as he
was
known, was poisoned by gangsters who – because he appeared to be
unbeatable – feared he would upset their illegal gambling
syndicates.

Phar Lap was not accompanied by Telford on his first trip to the US,
which
was intended to launch him on to the American racing scene. Instead,
Tommy
Woodcock, his stand-in trainer, travelled with him. But Woodcock took
Telford's 82-page handwritten book of tonics with him, and he may have
accidentally given the champion a fatal overdose.

The auctioneer, Charles Leski, said yesterday: "It's the first time
that
we have had, in writing, confirmation that caffeine, cocaine,
belladonna,
strychnine – all of them we think of as poisons – were actually
used by
Harry Telford in the maintenance of his horses.

"In strictly measured doses, and mixed in with other feed, presumably
these served the purpose of being a stimulant and didn't adversely
affect
the horses. But if Phar Lap had been unwell in the trip over to
America,
or if he had been in the hands of more than one person in the US, it's
possible the dosage wasn't strictly adhered to, and it appears he
overdosed on a concoction that was considered good for him."

The notebook, which contains 30 recipes, was bought by the Melbourne
Museum, which has displayed Phar Lap's hide since 1933, as well as his
saddle and other memorabilia. His skeleton is in the Museum of NewZealand, where the Australian-owned racehorse was born and bred. His
massive 14lb heart is in Canberra's National Museum.

The thoroughbred gelding collapsed at his stables soon after
travelling
back to the United States from Mexico. Woodcock found him in severe
pain,
with a high temperature, and a few hours later he died in his
trainer's
arms of internal bleeding. A postmortem examination revealed the
horse's
stomach and intestines were inflamed, which triggered theories that he
had
been poisoned.

Tests in 2006 on a strand on his hair, taken from his hide, suggested
Phar
Lap had ingested a large amount of arsenic about 35 hours before he
died.
But racing experts believe that the arsenic is more likely to have
built
up gradually over a period of time.

In the days before swabbing, it was not uncommon for racehorses to be
fed
small quantities of arsenic, to give them an edge. A popular tonic of
the
day was Fowler's Solution, which was arsenic-based and was
administered to
Phar Lap throughout his racing career. Repeated doses might have
accumulated in his body and eventually proved deadly.

Percy Sykes, a contemporary racehorse trainer, said after the tests in
2006: "I wouldn't be surprised if arsenic was found in every horse in
that
era."

Woodcock admitted on his deathbed in 1985 that the horse might have
died
from consuming an excessive quantity of one of his tonics. The
notebook
represents the first written proof of the ingredients found in the
tonics.

Phar Lap was a source of national pride to Australians during the
Depression and is still regarded as a heroic figure.:bang:

Well, at least the Americans are no longer to blame for his death.

It's amazing what trainers will put into a horse to make them run. The greed in the industry is what is killing the sport more than anything. Here was a horse (Phar Lap) that the world thought was an outstanding champion, only to find out he was coked to the gills in his races. Does that take away from the horse? IMO it does, but one does have to wonder if all the other horses he ran against were running on the same tonic.

[plainolebill]

You can get a high TCO2 from baking soda, a common additive in a racehorse's feed. The level needn't be from a milkshake.

Horses secluded in stalls often have stomach and ulcer issues. Baking soda (like alka seltzer) and activated charcoal often help to settle a horse's stomach.

Don't jump to conclusions until you know the animal and the circumstances.

This is completely disingenuous, it astounds me when people 'who are involved in the game' defend these lowlifes - especially with such a lame excuse - can't afford the ulcer medication? Conversely when a trainer with a 20+% win rate is accused of cheating, we hear that it's because they get better care, you know - their teeth filed and Eastern Washington hay. :lol:

[highnote]

With todays medications,Baking soda and charcoal are very old time remedys,I myself have used baking soda but stopped several years ago when warned by my vet.I now use Gastro gard,Ulcer aid and another is made by finishline called gastro U7,These are perfectly legal and with the exception of Gastro Gard,That can be given up to the morning before the race.

McSchell_Racing,

I aways enjoy your posts. Curious, do you use Winstrol or any other legal anabolic steroids? What is your opinion on the subject of them?

Thanks.

John

[joanied]

This shit drives me crazy. I actually thought O'Neill was a decent guy

GEEZE.... me too!!
:(

[CryingForTheHorses]

McSchell_Racing,

I aways enjoy your posts. Curious, do you use Winstrol or any other legal anabolic steroids? What is your opinion on the subject of them?

Thanks.

John



Hi John..Winstrol is for fillies..I never use it as I hardly ever claim any fillies,Gelding however when they are casterated become very docile as they dont have any testorone makers left.I do use equipoise on my geldings as that makes them racy and keeps them build up. My dosages however are very small enableing my horses slow buildup times.Without this anabolic steroid in gelding,They would waste away to a shadow.

[Shenanigans]

Hi John..Winstrol is for fillies..I never use it as I hardly ever claim any fillies,Gelding however when they are casterated become very docile as they dont have any testorone makers left.I do use equipoise on my geldings as that makes them racy and keeps them build up. My dosages however are very small enableing my horses slow buildup times.Without this anabolic steroid in gelding,They would waste away to a shadow.

I don't know if I totally agree with that. There are many sport horse geldings i.e. show jumpers, cross country horses etc that are put through the same rigorous training and are not on steriods. I have seen some race geldings that looked like they could benefit with a dose of steroids, but I don't think it's necessary for every gelding. What I never understood was gelding a horse then pumping them full of steriods.:confused: What's the point of gelding them if you're going to do that? Yes, you can control the amount of steriods to give them, but I have been around more nasty, hateful geldings than I have been around nasty, hateful colts. I have also seen geldings act just like studs towards fillies in the barn too.

[highnote]

Hi John..Winstrol is for fillies..I never use it as I hardly ever claim any fillies,Gelding however when they are casterated become very docile as they dont have any testorone makers left.I do use equipoise on my geldings as that makes them racy and keeps them build up. My dosages however are very small enableing my horses slow buildup times.Without this anabolic steroid in gelding,They would waste away to a shadow.

Interesting. I wonder why Dutrow gives all his horses Winstrol every month?

I've read on one Argentina veterinarians website that they rarely geld horses there. Why are so many horses in the U.S. gelded?

Horses have been gelded for centuries. How did people keep their geldings built up before steriods?

Same with fillies -- what did people do to their fillies before steroids?

[highnote]

What about the great gelding John Henry -- did he race on steroids?

[CryingForTheHorses]

I don't know if I totally agree with that. There are many sport horse geldings i.e. show jumpers, cross country horses etc that are put through the same rigorous training and are not on steriods. I have seen some race geldings that looked like they could benefit with a dose of steroids, but I don't think it's necessary for every gelding. What I never understood was gelding a horse then pumping them full of steriods.:confused: What's the point of gelding them if you're going to do that? Yes, you can control the amount of steriods to give them, but I have been around more nasty, hateful geldings than I have been around nasty, hateful colts. I have also seen geldings act just like studs towards fillies in the barn too.

Pumping them up isnt what I do...Gelding that are screaming in the barn have way too much steroids,I maintain them with a 1/4 dose...Lots of gelding are given too much and that can make them unruly.Sport horses like hunters and jumpers are also given steroids to help condition them,Dont forget geldings waste away without them..Little show horses and school horses rarely get this as kids handle them...I have a gelding that I retired from being a racehorse and I now use him as my stable pony and without steroids he is like a kitten..Atlas Peak is his name and he was one mean sonofagun with them..

[highnote]

Pumping them up isnt what I do...Gelding that are screaming in the barn have way too much steroids,I maintain them with a 1/4 dose...Lots of gelding are given too much and that can make them unruly.Sport horses like hunters and jumpers are also given steroids to help condition them,Dont forget geldings waste away without them..Little show horses and school horses rarely get this as kids handle them...I have a gelding that I retired from being a racehorse and I now use him as my stable pony and without steroids he is like a kitten..Atlas Peak is his name and he was one mean sonofagun with them..


Sounds like you take a pretty conservative approach to using steroids.

[Shenanigans]

Pumping them up isnt what I do...Gelding that are screaming in the barn have way too much steroids,I maintain them with a 1/4 dose...Lots of gelding are given too much and that can make them unruly.Sport horses like hunters and jumpers are also given steroids to help condition them,Dont forget geldings waste away without them..Little show horses and school horses rarely get this as kids handle them...I have a gelding that I retired from being a racehorse and I now use him as my stable pony and without steroids he is like a kitten..Atlas Peak is his name and he was one mean sonofagun with them..

Sport horses are tested for steroids. If it is given, it is not given like race horses get. There is a difference. Race horses live on the stuff.
You pointed out (in your last sentence) that your gelding was mean - exactly what I stated in my other post what steroids do to geldings. 1/4 dose still made him mean?

[Spectacular Sid]

What about the great gelding John Henry -- did he race on steroids?

He did not, according to his veterinarian Rick Arthur. From bloodhorse interview with Arthur:

Waco, TX:
Won't geldings be at a disadvantage if steroids are eliminated because of their lower level of naturally produced testosterone?

Dr. Arthur:
John Henry never had anabolic steroids while he was in Ron McAnally’s barn in California. The horses he ran against were the ones at a disadvantage.

I would not be surprised if gelding racehorses became less popular once anabolic steroids become regulated.

[joanied]

I was around a lot of geldings when I rubbed horses at Belmont Park...including Forego....none of them were wasting away, and I am sure they were not getting any steroids....I own two geldings and they are far from wasting away... good weight and muscle tone.

Geldings that still scream at the fillies are either getting steroids, and way too much, or they were proud cut, or they were old enough at castration that it hasn't 'sunk in' yet, and they are simply reacting as nature intended, but out of habit.

I also just read in my horse health magazine (The Horse) that steroids are being linked to Laminitus...they mess with the horse's insulin resistance. Another very good reason not to use steroids.

[WinterTriangle]

If it has ulcers, you need to get at the source of the nervousness that's causing the problem: it needs to be treated properly and effectively and have time off, not get pumped full of bicarb that will just numb the pain of the sores and stave off lactic acidosis for another race. It needs to eat naturally, not stuff itself because it's hopped up on steroids.

I don't know a lot about veterinary, but as a human, I have reflux disease, which was *relieved* by baking soda. HOWEVER, my cheapie-solution did nothing to address the problem. As a result, I have esophagael erosion. :eek:

Nexium and other proton-pump-inhibitors costs about $140 a month, more than baking soda, but it has also *healed* the erosions. I also met with a dietary specialist in gastro and I know how to eat right. Worth every dollar not to be in pain all the time, and risk more severe life-threatening health problems down the line.

I imagine this would this be true of the better (more expensive) veterinary gastro meds as well? Baking soda only relieves short-term....it does absolutely nothing to cure it.

[slewis]

Interesting. I wonder why Dutrow gives all his horses Winstrol every month?

I've read on one Argentina veterinarians website that they rarely geld horses there. Why are so many horses in the U.S. gelded?

Horses have been gelded for centuries. How did people keep their geldings built up before steriods?

Same with fillies -- what did people do to their fillies before steroids?

For what it's worth, he (RD) once told me it's the only one he uses.

He like what it does for their coats.
Told me he's not a big believer. (in steroid use)

[Shenanigans]

For what it's worth, he (RD) once told me it's the only one he uses.

He like what it does for their coats.
Told me he's not a big believer. (in steroid use)

He should hire grooms that use "eyebow grease" if he's so worried about their coats.:rolleyes: You actually don't believe that garbage do you?

[CryingForTheHorses]

He should hire grooms that use "eyebow grease" if he's so worried about their coats.:rolleyes: You actually don't believe that garbage do you?

Thanks,I wanted to say that but didnt want to get run off the board! :lol:

[joanied]

Thanks,I wanted to say that but didnt want to get run off the board! :lol:

It's 'elbow grease' :) and I cannot imagine how or why that stuff would be good for a horse's coat... sounds pretty ridiculous to me.
A daily bath and lot's of rubbing...elbow grease... and balanced, proper nutrition is what brings out the shine & dapples!!

Oh... my horses get one :eek: bath a year, in the Spring to get winter's grime off their coats...they get brushed :blush: occasionally and are turned out 24/7 (with a run in shed)...they get good hay (we grow our own), good pasture and a daily feeding of quality senior horse feed, de wormed on scheduel and get their yearly vaccinations....and each one is shiny, shiny, shiny, dappels all over and have beautiful mane & tail hair.

Winstrol:liar: indeed.

[slewis]

He should hire grooms that use "eyebow grease" if he's so worried about their coats.:rolleyes: You actually don't believe that garbage do you?

Ok, here's another you won't believe... but you can take it to the bank.

We've had 6 or 7 horses with Rick Dutrow, including several 2 yr olds.

Our vet bills were LOWER with Rick than with any other trainer we used. including MOTT and TAGG.

So unless he's funding a steroid program out of his own pocket.......
(and you can forget about that)

Go to the track and look at Rick's horses. They look NOTHING on race day compared to guys like LUKAS and Asmussen.
Now let me make this clear... I'm not knocking those guys, steroids are legal and I don't know first hand whether they do or dont.
But I know from my own experience with Rick.
If I'm misunderstanding your comments regarding Winstrol as to why he uses it, ok. But many many many trainers use it.

[highnote]

But many many many trainers use it.

It is NOT illegal.

[Shenanigans]

It's 'elbow grease' :) and I cannot imagine how or why that stuff would be good for a horse's coat... sounds pretty ridiculous to me.
A daily bath and lot's of rubbing...elbow grease... and balanced, proper nutrition is what brings out the shine & dapples!!

Oh... my horses get one bath a year, in the Spring to get winter's grime off their coats...they get brushed occasionally and are turned out 24/7 (with a run in shed)...they get good hay (we grow our own), good pasture and a daily feeding of quality senior horse feed, de wormed on scheduel and get their yearly vaccinations....and each one is shiny, shiny, shiny, dappels all over and have beautiful mane & tail hair.

Winstrol:liar: indeed.

:D Thanks for the editing. I didn't even notice my mistake until you pointed it out.:p

[Shenanigans]

Ok, here's another you won't believe... but you can take it to the bank.

We've had 6 or 7 horses with Rick Dutrow, including several 2 yr olds.

Our vet bills were LOWER with Rick than with any other trainer we used. including MOTT and TAGG.

So unless he's funding a steroid program out of his own pocket.......
(and you can forget about that)

Go to the track and look at Rick's horses. They look NOTHING on race day compared to guys like LUKAS and Asmussen.
Now let me make this clear... I'm not knocking those guys, steroids are legal and I don't know first hand whether they do or dont.
But I know from my own experience with Rick.
If I'm misunderstanding your comments regarding Winstrol as to why he uses it, ok. But many many many trainers use it.

You were a lucky owner.

I had a friend just tell me an interesting quote he was told by a trainer he worked for 25 years ago. The trainer said: "less than 20 years from now, trainers won't need to be a good horseman to know how to train, they'll just need a good vet." The trainer that said that was Frank Whitely.

[joanied]

:D Thanks for the editing. I didn't even notice my mistake until you pointed it out.:p

:) ;) :)

[joanied]

You were a lucky owner.

I had a friend just tell me an interesting quote he was told by a trainer he worked for 25 years ago. The trainer said: "less than 20 years from now, trainers won't need to be a good horseman to know how to train, they'll just need a good vet." The trainer that said that was Frank Whitely.

Good 'ol Frank :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

You were a lucky owner.Please explain why. Do you possess first hand knowledge of Dutrow that differs from slewis?

[joanied]

Please explain why. Do you possess first hand knowledge of Dutrow that differs from slewis?

I'd be interested in that too!!
I'm starting to think I jumped the gun on Dutrow...maybe he's Ok afterall?
If Shenenigans has something to add....please do.

[john del riccio]

This takes alot of hutzpah to put in print & Plonk needs to be acknowledged for doing so.


John

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=3384622

[46zilzal]

When I was a junior in medical school, I read a book entitled The Biology of Wound Repair and it fascinated me. There is a routine (usually and when it is working correctly) and orderly cascade of chemical and cellular reactions in response to trauma whether that insult be large or small. Chemicals called kinens are released which vasodilate the nearby vessels (to bring oxygen and nutrients to the
site) as well as draw in inflammatory pre-cursor cells (of the white blood cell variety) in order to lay down the collagen protein necessary for wound repair.

This orderly process can be either slowed down (by NSAID's like Bute)or stopped altogether (with the corticosteroids) and thereby masking the swelling and redness that usually accompanies inflammation. It is this tissue enlargement which causes physical traction on the nerves that generates the pain of inflammation.

Now take all of these red flags away and what you have is inflammation unchecked in a symptomless patient. No basic repair, no influx of oxygen and nutrients, no collagen being laid down to repair the trauma. Almost like having the numb extremities of a long time uncontrolled diabetic.

That is what these drugs are doing to racing.

[alydar]

This takes alot of hutzpah to put in print & Plonk needs to be acknowledged for doing so.


John

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=3384622

Great article

[Kelso]

When I was a junior in medical school, I read a book entitled The Biology of Wound Repair and it fascinated me. There is a routine (usually and when it is working correctly) and orderly cascade of chemical and cellular reactions in response to trauma whether that insult be large or small. Chemicals called kinens are released which vasodilate the nearby vessels (to bring oxygen and nutrients to the
site) as well as draw in inflammatory pre-cursor cells (of the white blood cell variety) in order to lay down the collagen protein necessary for wound repair.

This orderly process can be either slowed down (by NSAID's like Bute)or stopped altogether (with the corticosteroids) and thereby masking the swelling and redness that usually accompanies inflammation. It is this tissue enlargement which causes physical traction on the nerves that generates the pain of inflammation.

Now take all of these red flags away and what you have is inflammation unchecked in a symptomless patient. No basic repair, no influx of oxygen and nutrients, no collagen being laid down to repair the trauma. Almost like having the numb extremities of a long time uncontrolled diabetic.

That is what these drugs are doing to racing.Heavy stuff translated into layman's terms that even I can understand. Very nice job. Thank you, ZZ. (I've already forwarded it on to some interested folks.)

[Kelso]

This takes alot of hutzpah to put in print & Plonk needs to be acknowledged for doing so.


John

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=3384622Agreed on both counts.. Thanks for posting.

[joanied]

Yes...excellent :ThmbUp: article that really hits home. Brutally forthright.

And zilzal's addition is:ThmbUp: perfect....thanks, zilzal, you explained that perfectly.

And here is a link that tells another story...I beleive in many cases (albiet the upper echelon) this is where it all begins. Babies running blistering fractions in the 2 yr. olds in training sales. I would bet many of these 2 yr. olds are still long yearlings...IMO, these breezes need :mad: to be stopped. IMO astute horsemen do not need to see a youngster leave a trail of fire & smoke on the track...a nice fast gallop from these horses should be more than enough for a horseman to judge the way a horse moves...
http://www.bloodhorse.com/Now/News/NewsletterTopNews/45153.aspx

[Murph]

Ironic isn't it? These are the first two story links available as I logged in.

Trio of Colts Post Quick Barretts Work (http://feeds.bloodhorse.com/~r/Bloodhorse/TopHeadlines/~3/287256030/viewstory.asp)
Colts by Lion Heart, Cactus Ridge, and City Place, tied for the fastest 1/8-mile work when they stopped the timer in :9 4/5 May 9 during the second session for the under tack show for the Barretts May sale of 2-year-olds in training.http://feeds.bloodhorse.com/~r/Bloodhorse/TopHeadlines/~4/287256030

Catastrophic Injuries: What Do We Know? (http://feeds.bloodhorse.com/~r/Bloodhorse/TopHeadlines/~3/287212199/viewstory.asp)
In the wake of two highly publicized catastrophic racetrack injuries since May 2006, questions and opinions regarding the safety of Thoroughbred racehorses have been generated and propagated by fans, the media, and animal rights groups.http://feeds.bloodhorse.com/~r/Bloodhorse/TopHeadlines/~4/287212199

Yes...excellent :ThmbUp: article that really hits home. Brutally forthright.

And zilzal's addition is:ThmbUp: perfect....thanks, zilzal, you explained that perfectly.

And here is a link that tells another story...I beleive in many cases (albiet the upper echelon) this is where it all begins. Babies running blistering fractions in the 2 yr. olds in training sales. I would bet many of these 2 yr. olds are still long yearlings...IMO, these breezes need :mad: to be stopped. IMO astute horsemen do not need to see a youngster leave a trail of fire & smoke on the track...a nice fast gallop from these horses should be more than enough for a horseman to judge the way a horse moves...
http://www.bloodhorse.com/Now/News/NewsletterTopNews/45153.aspx

[RobinFromIreland]

M Dickinson admits anabolic steroid use throughout his career (http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080509/SPORTS13/805090372%20)

[chickenhead]

they moved the story.

http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008805090372

[PaceAdvantage]

Steroids are legal and you can bet that most if not all trainers use or have used them at some point.

Do you honestly think Secretariat and Cigar were sterioid-free? I would be shocked if they were....

As to the Plonk article, yes, it was good, but I take issue with his red-boarding of Eight Belles' death. I mean, when you have to preface your commentary with "While I am by no means a horseman, nor do I claim to be....", how much weight can I as a reader really assign to his armchair analysis of the physical condition of Eight Belles prior to the Derby?

Plus to lump Kiaran McLauglin in the same boat with Dutrow and Assmussen does some serious injustice to a guy like McLaughlin....IMO

[razzle]

Pace Advantage,

You have some doubts about Plonk, how about the recent Dickinson and Hancock articles, at least one of which has been posted here?

Dickinson, in his article, says that 95% of trainers are using. Are you suggesting that either Dickinson is not credible or that McLaughlin is in the 5% clean group? Or, are there categories of cheats? It's possible that McLaughlin acted within the law but irresponsibly toward the horse and betting public? That's a useful category...?

The Dickinson article can be found at: http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080509/SPORTS13/805090372

If there is any validity to what these horsemen (Dickinson and Hancock) are saying, rather than look for today's high profile successful trainers to defend, wouldn't it make more sense to consider what one would look for in order to identify the 5% clean guys over the past 15 years? If McLaughlin is of such sterling character, why hasn't he come forward about all the cheating?

raz

[PaceAdvantage]

Pace Advantage,

You have some doubts about Plonk, how about the recent Dickinson and Hancock articles, at least one of which has been posted here?

Dickinson, in his article, says that 95% of trainers are using.Yeah, Dickinson is talking about LEGAL ANABOLIC STEROIDS. 95% of trainers are using them LEGALLY.

Plonk is painting McLaughlin with the same brush as Dutrow and Asmussen when it comes to be being suspended for testing positive for ILLEGAL race day medications (NOT steroids, which are legal), which in my opinion, isn't justified.

As you can see, the two articles are discussing two different areas....

If you want to start throwing Kiaran McLaughlin under the bus, then you are also going to have to take the venerable BILL MOTT with you (he had at least one horse test positive in the past).

Oh, and also take the super-venerable NEIL DRYSDALE with you too (the poster boy for hay and oats out west), as he has been suspended in the past for testing positive for illegal race day medications.

[highnote]

IMHO, the horse racing regulating bodies have failed by allowing steroid use.

Would banning lasix, bute, steroids, etc. really be so bad for the well being of horses?

The ironic thing is that the industry requires natural, live cover of a mare, but once the foal gets to the track it can be given all kinds of articial substances to enhance it's performance.

[razzle]

PaceAdvantage,

You've got the "bus" thing backwards. They aren't under the bus, we, as players are; as are the 5% clean guys; as are the horses themselves; as are the jockeys who ride them; as is the racing industry.

Why would you, or anyone else, want to "venerate" any of them? Unless, of course, you have some criteria by which you may place them in the 5%?

Where are the voices of these "venerable" trainers now? Where have they been?

Trying to make distinctions about who used steroids "legally" is like asking who was "legally" lending unsecured mortgage money into the housing bubble ( at "adjustable rates" no less). At least the borrowers could decide for themselves, the horses can't. Regardless, we all have to suffer the financial crisis that resulted from subsidizing the lender's selfish gain.

The point of my posts is NOT to attack you, or to start a pizzing string. My interest is in asking people who care about this game (and/or a level playing field ) to consider how they would identify someone who has been willing to suffer the staggering losses of being in the 5% for the past 15 years just for the good of the horse and the game. What would you look for?

[JustRalph]

This takes alot of hutzpah to put in print & Plonk needs to be acknowledged for doing so.


John

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=3384622

Bump this article back up just in case anybody missed it. I think it is a very important read. And I think he is going to take a bunch of crap for writing it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Bump this article back up just in case anybody missed it. I think it is a very important read. And I think he is going to take a bunch of crap for writing it.Is he saying anything that hasn't been said a bunch of times on this message board in the past?

[highnote]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantageDo you honestly think Secretariat and Cigar were sterioid-free? I would be shocked if they were....[/QUOTE]

Cigar no. Secretariat yes.

Although, like you, I would not be shocked if Sec was on them and Cigar was not.

[Shenanigans]

Bump this article back up just in case anybody missed it. I think it is a very important read. And I think he is going to take a bunch of crap for writing it.

What kind of "crap" is he going to take for writing it?? Libel suits???:rolleyes: Trainers can't sue over something that is in the books. (It's even harder for them if they are sitting in prison - like they are concerned about their "rep" at the track. :lol: )
Please explain what kind of "crap" he's going to take and "who" from. The trainers? The fans? The industry? Ha. I can tell you right now, I have e-mail that article to some friends in the industry and like me, they agree with it.

[highnote]

I keep thinking the owner of Ellis Park would do well to set up his track for drug-free racing.

[joanied]

I would like to jump in here, just for a moment, guys...

mentioning Cigar & Secretariat and steroids.... I have no clue about Cigar, and quite honestly, knowing Lucien Luren (I was stabled a couple barns away at Belmont, my ex galloped for Lucien) I would be surprised if Big Red had steroids...but, he died of Laminitus, and all these years I figured he got the laminitus because they never excercised him at the farm, kept him in his stall too much and let him get fat....but, there is something new in the equine research dept...they have found, and I quote from an equine magazine..."Research confirms the long suspected link between the administration of cortisteroids amd increased risk of laminitus" Now could that be one reason so many race horses get laminitus after they are retired?

How's that for another good reason to ban that crap.

Also, as for trainers and postives...and I am not defending any of it, but...finding traces of something, measured down to 1,000ths, can come from another source....bedding. In 'The Horse' magazine (published by the BloodHorse) there is a new finding...it shows that horses treated with medications can contaminate other horses and re-contaminate themselves with the same drug via their stall bedding. As quoted from a noted vet: "The risks of auto-contamination and cross contamination are real when dealing with certain treatments commonlly used in equine therapy"

Food for thought...maybe in some of the postives we see trainers getting, the horse really wasn't given the med too close to race time, but picked up trace amounts from bedding.
But, I hold to the opinion that most, if not all, drugs be banned or it's use stricktly monitored and rules enforced.

OK...I'm outta here!!
:)

[Nacumi]

One of the consequences of long-term steroid abuse is reproductive problems/infertility.
I wonder about any great racehorse, male or female, who came off the track and had these problems in the shed. Cigar will always be a question for me.

[Shenanigans]

I would like to jump in here, just for a moment, guys...

mentioning Cigar & Secretariat and steroids.... I have no clue about Cigar, and quite honestly, knowing Lucien Lauren (I was stabled a couple barns away at Belmont, my ex galloped for Lucien) I would be surprised if Big Red had steroids...but, he died of Laminitis, and all these years I figured he got the laminitis because they never exercised him at the farm, kept him in his stall too much and let him get fat....but, there is something new in the equine research dept...they have found, and I quote from an equine magazine..."Research confirms the long suspected link between the administration of corticosteroids and increased risk of laminitis" Now could that be one reason so many race horses get laminitis after they are retired?

How's that for another good reason to ban that crap.

Also, as for trainers and positives...and I am not defending any of it, but...finding traces of something, measured down to 1,000ths, can come from another source....bedding. In 'The Horse' magazine (published by the BloodHorse) there is a new finding...it shows that horses treated with medications can contaminate other horses and re-contaminate themselves with the same drug via their stall bedding. As quoted from a noted vet: "The risks of auto-contamination and cross contamination are real when dealing with certain treatments commonly used in equine therapy"

Food for thought...maybe in some of the positives we see trainers getting, the horse really wasn't given the med too close to race time, but picked up trace amounts from bedding.
But, I hold to the opinion that most, if not all, drugs be banned or it's use strictly monitored and rules enforced.

OK...I'm outta here!!
:)

So what they are saying is that the horse would have to eat contaminated bedding. First off, I have never witnessed a horse eating the straw that has been urinated or defecated on. Not saying some do, but I can't imagine the trace amounts found in the bedding would make that significant of a difference. Nor do I believe that a piece of contaminated hay would do the same.
I would be curious as to how they came up with this finding. Did they directly feed a horse contaminated bedding or are they surmising "perhaps if it were to occur, a horse eating contaminated bedding, ingesting more medication is possible". I am also curious who exactly did the study? Is it a group of vets that have a large interest with the racetracks or was this study done by a university? IMO, these studies are bunk, and are only another way to give cheating trainers a way out. It's no different than a trainer claiming the groom fed a poppy seed bagel to the horse that got a bad test.:rolleyes:
Also, what kind of excuse is this for the trainers that got positives for illegal drugs???

[46zilzal]

One of the consequences of long-term steroid abuse is reproductive problems/infertility.
I wonder about any great racehorse, male or female, who came off the track and had these problems in the shed. Cigar will always be a question for me.
Place Music, his sire, had the same problems

[Gallop58]

Anyone know how the below threshhold limits compare to the various racing jurisdictions? These are the FEI (Olympic) numbers for "threshold drugs". All the other drugs have test limits too, but I can't seem to find them.
When they are talking about steroid bans, what are the concentration limits they are talking about (in racing)?



Available carbon dioxide (CO2)36 millimoles per litre in plasma







Boldenone (other than geldings) free and conjugated boldenone 0.015 micrograms per ml in urine from male horses







Dimethyl sulphoxide (DMSO) 15 micrograms per ml in urine or 1 microgram per ml in plasma



Estranediol in male Horses (other than Geldings)Free and conjugated 5F-estrane-3G, 17F-diol 0.045micrograms per ml in urine


Hydrocortisone 1 microgram per ml in urine Salicylic acid 625 micrograms per ml in urine or 5.4 micrograms per ml in plasma







Testosterone 0.02 micrograms free and conjugated Testosterone per ml in urine from geldings, or 0.055 micrograms free and conjugated testosterone per ml in urine from fillies and mares (unless in foal).

[DrugS]

When I saw the title of this thread I had high hopes....

[joanied]

One of the consequences of long-term steroid abuse is reproductive problems/infertility.
I wonder about any great racehorse, male or female, who came off the track and had these problems in the shed. Cigar will always be a question for me.

yes, that has been prooven also...and I also wonder about the infertility problems many of the stallions are having...including Cigar...but with him, I would be shocked to know that Mott would allow steroid use in any of his horses, and IMO, Allen Paulson would never have allowed it.

[BillW]

When I saw the title of this thread I had high hopes....

Not the living memorial that you much deserve :lol: :lol:

[46zilzal]

yes, that has been prooven also...and I also wonder about the infertility problems many of the stallions are having...including Cigar...but with him, I would be shocked to know that Mott would allow steroid use in any of his horses, and IMO, Allen Paulson would never have allowed it.
His sire, Palace Music, had low fertility

[joanied]

So what they are saying is that the horse would have to eat contaminated bedding. First off, I have never witnessed a horse eating the straw that has been urinated or defecated on. Not saying some do, but I can't imagine the trace amounts found in the bedding would make that significant of a difference. Nor do I believe that a piece of contaminated hay would do the same.
I would be curious as to how they came up with this finding. Did they directly feed a horse contaminated bedding or are they surmising "perhaps if it were to occur, a horse eating contaminated bedding, ingesting more medication is possible". I am also curious who exactly did the study? Is it a group of vets that have a large interest with the racetracks or was this study done by a university? IMO, these studies are bunk, and are only another way to give cheating trainers a way out. It's no different than a trainer claiming the groom fed a poppy seed bagel to the horse that got a bad test.:rolleyes:
Also, what kind of excuse is this for the trainers that got positives for illegal drugs???

First, I don't think they meant that a horse would eat soiled bedding...just laying in it, I assumed.
The study was presented at the 34th Annual Equine Research Day convention. The results are published in the May addition of 'The Horse' magazine (I tried to get the article via their web site, but could not find it)
The vet that did the study is in France (UGH) -- DVM, PharmD, PHD Marie-Agnes Popot. They tested a number of horses in clean stalls, partially cleaned stalls, and dirty stalls. measured the amounts of common drugs in all horses to compare results. It also included stalls within equine transportation vehicles. They didn't have the horses eat bedding (not that a horse would eat dirty bedding)...just spent time in the stalls.

I guess I need to repeat myself...I am not using this study to defend any trainers...or the problem with drugs in general...I simply read the article, found it interesting, and passed along the findings...it's not meant to be used an an excuse by anyone... even trainers who have grooms feeding poppyseed bagels to their horses!!!!!
(heavy sigh)

[Shenanigans]

First, I don't think they meant that a horse would eat soiled bedding...just laying in it, I assumed.
The study was presented at the 34th Annual Equine Research Day convention. The results are published in the May addition of 'The Horse' magazine (I tried to get the article via their web site, but could not find it)
The vet that did the study is in France (UGH) -- DVM, PharmD, PHD Marie-Agnes Popot. They tested a number of horses in clean stalls, partially cleaned stalls, and dirty stalls. measured the amounts of common drugs in all horses to compare results. It also included stalls within equine transportation vehicles. They didn't have the horses eat bedding (not that a horse would eat dirty bedding)...just spent time in the stalls.

I guess I need to repeat myself...I am not using this study to defend any trainers...or the problem with drugs in general...I simply read the article, found it interesting, and passed along the findings...it's not meant to be used an an excuse by anyone... even trainers who have grooms feeding poppyseed bagels to their horses!!!!!
(heavy sigh)

I was merely asking a question as to how these horses get contaminated. The study is claiming by lying in a bed of straw a horse can get contaminated? Through the skin? It just doesn't sound possible. Hence the reasoning for the questions. Understand, after I read these types of articles in Equus magazine, I always come up with questions if things don't seem to match up. I am questioning the article, not you.
I don't believe I was accusing you of defending the trainers. All I stated was that the article will give cheating trainers an excuse the next time they receive a bad test. I don't recall stating "Joanied is a supporter of juice trainers." Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

[joanied]

I was merely asking a question as to how these horses get contaminated. The study is claiming by lying in a bed of straw a horse can get contaminated? Through the skin? It just doesn't sound possible. Hence the reasoning for the questions. Understand, after I read these types of articles in Equus magazine, I always come up with questions if things don't seem to match up. I am questioning the article, not you.
I don't believe I was accusing you of defending the trainers. All I stated was that the article will give cheating trainers an excuse the next time they receive a bad test. I don't recall stating "Joanied is a supporter of juice trainers." Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

Hey Shenanigans.... It did 'sound' as if you thought I thought horses would eat soiled bedding:eek: ...sometimes in a post a person will read it the wrong way:bang:
Looks like you get Equus magazine too...so you read the article. I thought it was interesting, but I also don't know how these horses they used in the testing became contaminated...they needed to explain further. Maybe they'll do a follow up on that research.
At any rate, I suppose it would give dirty trainers another excuse....and that is one of the problems, they can come up with plenty of excuses, which is why the powers that be need to get off their butts and start enforcing the rules, and one thing they have to do when a trainer is suspended, is not to allow that guy to train his horses by proxy... because that just makes the suspension a damned bad joke.

Have a good :jump: one, Shenanigans!!!
:)

[Gallop58]

FYI, FEI drug testing detection limit document has the following statement:



* Studies have shown that re-uptake of drugs (e.g. dipyrone, flunixin, clenbuterol) through droppings of the horse or contaminated bedding can result in prolonged detection times. Therefore it is essential that stalls in which competition horses are under NSAID or other treatment are daily and thoroughly cleaned. This applies particularly to oral medication in boxes with straw bedding not replaced very frequently.

[joanied]

FYI, FEI drug testing detection limit document has the following statement:







* Studies have shown that re-uptake of drugs (e.g. dipyrone, flunixin, clenbuterol) through droppings of the horse or contaminated bedding can result in prolonged detection times. Therefore it is essential that stalls in which competition horses are under NSAID or other treatment are daily and thoroughly cleaned. This applies particularly to oral medication in boxes with straw bedding not replaced very frequently.


Well, how about that!! Now why did they do this study, if it's already been varified that bedding can re contaminate horses...DUH:faint:

Thanks Gallop58.