View Full Version : The Match Up
GameTheory
02-11-2003, 12:11 AM
by Jim "the hat" Bradshaw.
Any good?
andicap
02-11-2003, 11:35 AM
Poorly written, poorly edited, and fairly inscrutable.
However, Jim was very good at answering questions via email. ( I don't have his address anymore). However, I still didn't understand half of what he was doing with adjustments, etc.
Of course, I could be a moron. But the book was poorly written.
Lefty
02-11-2003, 12:51 PM
andicap, I agree with you completely. There was one example where he called the horse a sustained horse where the horse was only a nk off the lead at 2nd call.
I've met Jim and liked him but he wasn't good at articulating his method.
kitts
02-11-2003, 02:24 PM
Jimmy "The Hat" is very entertaining at seminars. But he sure does not write well.
superfecta
02-12-2003, 11:33 PM
but I was dissapointed in the book as well.Read it once or twice and gave it away.
I read it twice and I am still not sure what is going on.
ZAFONIC
andicap
02-13-2003, 01:39 PM
Well, the Sartin people would say that it must be you.
:p
GameTheory
02-13-2003, 02:01 PM
Well,
I must say I'm really looking forward to it now. Are there bad ideas, or just bad writing?
You seem to be saying you can't even tell what the ideas are?
Originally posted by GameTheory
Well,
I must say I'm really looking forward to it now. Are there bad ideas, or just bad writing?
You seem to be saying you can't even tell what the ideas are?
The book is poorly done. As far as his ideas, i think Jim Lehane does a superior job in describing how to match-up contenders.
ZAFONIC
andicap
02-13-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by GameTheory
Well,
I must say I'm really looking forward to it now. Are there bad ideas, or just bad writing?
You seem to be saying you can't even tell what the ideas are?
Exactly. they could be GREAT ideas. You just can't tell. It's confusing, contradictory, illegible in parts.
I knew what the ideas were before reading the book because I was familiar with the Sartin stuff, but the book was incomprehensible...and not in the sense that there was an underlying genius screaming to be discovered. Incomprehensible like disorganized, poorly devloped and articulated thoughts, poor grammar, non-sequitors, obviously little or no editing or proofing, little or no analysis, etc.
The Sartin group did have a Match Up manual that was pretty good. If I can find it I'll send you an e-mail to get an address to mail it to. If I can't find it, you may want to try to track down a copy. It was much better than the book.
Take care, Cato
GameTheory
02-23-2003, 05:17 PM
Yeah, the reason I was asking is because I had a used copy of the Match Up on the way. You guys weren't kidding.
My theory is that he sent the printer a collection of his notes and they thought it was the final manuscript and did the whole printing run. That was all he could afford, so he just sold it like that. I mean, my god, he *thanked* people for helping with the editing. I would really like to know -- does think it he created a real book?
I'm open to receiving any emails that might be clearer as to what the heck he's talking about....
andicap
02-23-2003, 05:29 PM
If you get any clues, tell me!! Every six months I re-read it, just to see if I can glean something from it.
Nope.
GameTheory
02-23-2003, 05:36 PM
Maybe we should form a study group to pick it apart piece by piece. Anyone speak "Okie"?
Originally posted by andicap
If you get any clues, tell me!! Every six months I re-read it, just to see if I can glean something from it.
Nope.
I've read it 5 times hoping to gain something useful from it. :confused: Maybe the 6th will be the charm.
ZAFONIC
hey, hey, hey, I'm fluent in the "Okie" language and I can assure you that the Match Up is not written in Okie.
I think that the manuscript must have been randomly shuffled at some point in the process and no one read the book until it was published.
Aren't there some endorsements on the back cover of the book? Waht does that say about the credibiliy of those folks?
Take care, Cato
From the reviews here, the posters almost have me ready to buy this book. I just can't believe a book can be that bad. Well...nah, I'll take your word for it!
CJ
The book is written in code. You only read evey 5th word and then it makes sense! <G>
I like the idea of forming a study group and trying to figure it out.
Count me in if anyone else is interested.
Originally posted by Tom
The book is written in code. You only read evey 5th word and then it makes sense! <G>
I like the idea of forming a study group and trying to figure it out.
Count me in if anyone else is interested.
I think even The Hat himself acknowledges he is not sure how it works. Its in the very beginning of the book.
ZAFONIC
Lefty
02-24-2003, 07:08 PM
I sat back of Jimmy once while we were both waiting for a Sartin seminar to begin. It was at the Riviera some yrs ago. He made bet after bet and seemed to be winning. He can do it, he just can't explain it.
Saw Brohamer brilliantly take a racecard apart one time and the prob is a lot of winners came from those he saw as having no chance.
I have a lot of admiration for these guys but sometimes things just don't work out.
Originally posted by Lefty
I have a lot of admiration for these guys but sometimes things just don't work out.
True a lot of these guys lose 7 out of 10 wagers but still manage to soundly beat the game. Its the long run that counts.
ZAFONIC
modred
02-25-2003, 01:48 AM
Well...are we going to do a "MatchUp" Study Group or not?
hmmm...maybe I should re write it and get rid of some of the glaring typos before we start.
andicap
02-25-2003, 11:08 AM
Better yet, why don't we contact the people who wrote those nice blurbs and ask THEM what the hell Bradshaw was trying to say.
This kind of log-rolling is pretty common in the publishing industry, so I can't contain my contempt to just horse racing writers.
Originally posted by modred
Well...are we going to do a "MatchUp" Study Group or not?
hmmm...maybe I should re write it and get rid of some of the glaring typos before we start.
Send me copy when you finish <G>
Seroiously, let's do it.
Anyone want to get in on it, post in this thread and we can start this week-start at Chptr 1 and go from there?
I started re-reading it last night, and I thought it was pretty straight-forward and clear :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
GameTheory
02-25-2003, 12:39 PM
Well, even though it is written in code and is out of print, it is still under copyright so we ought not to be posting or reiterating the entire book in public.
However, if you really want to do it, I'll set up a private forum on one of my websites and the handful of us that were dumb enough to buy the book can pull it apart. We can have a thread for each chapter where we try to decipher it all, and then maybe we can reach some consensus.
We ought to learn something even if it ain't in the book (maybe the book is trying to teach us via a "Karate Kid" method).
If that sounds good, anyone interested can email me at ac@onehorseshy.com and I'll send you a username/password for the private forum. Also include your favorite quote from the book with a page number so we only include those who actually have the book. We will be the Fellowship of the Match Up. If we decide it is evil we can throw it into a fiery mountain somewhere...
andicap
02-27-2003, 10:27 AM
I replied....this is the best idea since Ffast started adjusting Beyers
:D
GameTheory
02-27-2003, 12:56 PM
Ok, we've got 3 including myself so far. Let's get a few more...
Donated my copy to the library so I can't participate. I think they shelved it in the Greek section......
Cato
GameTheory
02-27-2003, 01:54 PM
How bout that "Match Up Manual", cato? Did you locate that?
No, I think it went out with the Match UP Book,
If you want something that is also written in code but does have some interesting ideas I can send you the original Sartin "yellow manual."
Drop me an e-mail if you would like to see it.
Cato
Now lets try to decipher that one!
GT...got your email-I'm in. have been off line all day.
I'll check it out. I have both Match UP Manual and book, if anyone needs to see it.
Dick Schmidt
02-28-2003, 01:52 AM
Tom et. al.
As one who has spent many hours trying to decipher and then render into literate English the ramblings of Jim Bradshaw, let me warn you that you are taking on quite a project!
If I may be so bold, I might suggest the reason the Manual is clearer than the book is that I was allowed to take one quick pass through it and make some corrections. I wanted to do a complete re-write, but Jim got pissed and declared that it was "jus fine" and "didn't need no editin." An amazing fact is that before he became a racing sage, Jim was a high school teacher for years in Oklahoma. One can only hope he never taught English.
Good luck with the project. If you need any help, let me know and I'll be glad to give you Jim's e-mail address!
Been there, done that.
Dick
andicap
02-28-2003, 09:11 AM
I've reread the first two chapters and hope to post some thoughts today.
I believe I had at one time the manual -- which also confused me a bit -- I'll have to dig through all my old handicapping crap (it was a red cover I think and there was a chapter from Pizzolla in there in which he referred to the "fulcrum?")
That;s the one-red MatchUp.
I still use the fulcrum concept to this day - it is an integral part of my handicapping so matter what I am usig-speed/pace figures, velocity, fps ratings, etc. A dynamite excuse for the last race is that it waas 2 or more fifths faster than today's fulcrum. It is a sinch to use in TPR numbers or with Qurin pace/speed numbers.
It doesn't work well with HTR qurin numbers because they are something above just speed numbers, but they have a fps pp screen that lists veryting in fps numbers - I made a chart to convert the velocity to a speed type number and then it works really neat-o.
A feature of the old MPH software generates Quirin pace/speed numbers and when I use that, I only conside pacelines that are wtihing 5 pace points of the fulcrum. I routinley thorw of favorites that can't meet today's pace demands. (Unfortuneatle, I also throw out a few winners that do meet them<G>).
I registered for the MU and will start posting tonight- I am really itching to go on this.
GR1@HTR
02-28-2003, 01:33 PM
I also have tried about a half dozen times to re read the book but get fustrated real quick...
One thing I think he was trying to say, correct me if I am wrong...
1) He didn't beleive in Tandems...ie if a horse A beat horse B last time, horse A will win again. Correct?
Tandems were the only thing the Hat marked on his DRF.
He was always looking for tandems to reverse.
Lefty
02-28-2003, 08:53 PM
The Tandem race was a big thing with Doc and Jimmy. They believed if horse A beat horse B less that say, 5.75 lgths that horse B would be as likely as not to reverse the Tandem this time and prob at good odds. Made a little money with this myself.
The thing that was most incomprehensible to me about the book was some of his esp, i.e. running style designations. I remember one ex where a horse was just a hd off lead at 2nd call and Jimmy called it a sp horse. I just couldn't make sense of it.
socantra
03-01-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Lefty
The Tandem race was a big thing with Doc and Jimmy. They believed if horse A beat horse B less that say, 5.75 lgths that horse B would be as likely as not to reverse the Tandem this time and prob at good odds. Made a little money with this myself.
The thing that was most incomprehensible to me about the book was some of his esp, i.e. running style designations. I remember one ex where a horse was just a hd off lead at 2nd call and Jimmy called it a sp horse. I just couldn't make sense of it.
Sartin, at least in recent years, has based his running style designations on the way the horse expended his energy, which is not always the same as the apparent lengths back in the paceline race.
RLB......
socantra
03-01-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by GameTheory
If that sounds good, anyone interested can email me at ac@onehorseshy.com and I'll send you a username/password for the private forum. Also include your favorite quote from the book with a page number so we only include those who actually have the book. We will be the Fellowship of the Match Up. If we decide it is evil we can throw it into a fiery mountain somewhere...
Sounds interesting to me. I ordered the book thursday morning from GBC. I'll get an email with quote to you as soon as I get it in and read enough to get confused. Anything from a good handicapper that's confused so many of the good handicappers on this board must be worth pursuing.
RLB.....
Lefty
03-01-2003, 02:57 PM
socantra, That's true about Sartin and energy etc, I have all his prgms, but Jimmy Bradshaw did his strictly by eye and in the book he made some running style desig. that didn't make sense to me but, obviously did to him. He just couldn't articulate it.
socantra
03-01-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Lefty
socantra, That's true about Sartin and energy etc, I have all his prgms, but Jimmy Bradshaw did his strictly by eye and in the book he made some running style desig. that didn't make sense to me but, obviously did to him. He just couldn't articulate it.
I understand. There are so many people here who have been through the Sartin group that I'm hesitant to say anything.
I didn't get there til late (2000 or so) and only stayed a year, as I became convinced that I would have to develop a handicapping procedure of my own rather than trust in Validator 2, which could become useless the next time Trackmaster decided ro change their file structure.
My early knowledge of the methodology came from Quinn's "Best of" and Dave Litfin's "Racing Times" Articles. By the Time I became a member of the group, most of the energy was already gone. I did learn a lot, abd have hopes of being able to do something personally with entropy and chaos, as they look like promising directions.
As I'm sure everyone who's been through the Sartin organization knows, whatever he was doing at the time was, by definition, new and revolutionary. Due to my late srrival, I'm not sure just which parts were.
RLB....
Ironic, all those years with the Doc and he kept proclaiming how he was helping people be independent and not have to rely on other people by using his methodolgy. Then he leaves everyone high and dry and not so much as a post card apologizing for all those worthless progrms and unfufilled subscriptions. He had an excuse while he was sick and recovering, but his son and daughter sure never looked to me like their arms were broken.
Ironic that his legacy will be he was just another one 'em.
Tom: In many ways that's true, but what a great show he put on! Brohamer, Pizzolla, Schmidt, Bradshaw, Purdy and a constant stream of interchangeable handicappers--all of whom hit 60% with a 8.76 avg payoff.
The seminars were great and I think that in many ways it was a think tank for the real handicapers (like those mentioned above) that spun off a lot of good thinking and writing (but pretty much excluding anything put out by Sartin himself).
His role was ringmaster and motivator.
When I think of Sartin I think of the Music Man and that's not necessarily a bad thing...unless you quit your day job to tackle the races!
Cheers, Cato
Youo are preaching to the choir.
I loved the seminars, the FU ( Schmidt-era), the programs- I learned a lot and made a lot. It is just ironinc that the man failed to live up the reputation. If I had spent that much moneu on a rpgram now useless, I would be looking for hit men in the California area <G> I stopped buying with Thoromation/Kgen.
GameTheory
03-02-2003, 01:59 PM
Lefty, Dick, GR, help us out on the Match Up forum -- drop me a line. Andy & Eric -- where are you guys?
Lefty
03-02-2003, 07:47 PM
GT, I don't have the book. I borrowed it from a friend right after it came out.
Good luck, but you might decipher the Bible quicker.
Originally posted by Lefty
GT, I don't have the book. I borrowed it from a friend right after it came out.
Good luck, but you might decipher the Bible quicker.
I'm up to Corinthians already. I'm hoping Revelations will talk about the match up.
Lefty
03-02-2003, 10:15 PM
Tom, try the book of JOB.
modred
03-03-2003, 02:42 AM
Sorry GT ... it's Mardi Gras here and I kinda got caught up with it.
I'm with you now though.
Derek2U
03-03-2003, 06:27 PM
something i always wantd to party at. How would you describe
a typical night during MG. Does every1 stay up round-the-clock?
Big Bill
03-03-2003, 08:25 PM
Modred,
Coming to NO later this month and staying at the La Quinta Inn on Vetrans Blvd. in Metairie. Can you give me instructions on driving to the Fair Grounds race track from there? And any other suggestions you might have regarding a couple of days at the races. I'd appreciate it. If you can provide some help, e-mail me at:
bwb900@cox.net
Thanks, Big Bill
Derek: I went to Mardi Gras once during spring break in law school. It was so fun that I almost never went back (to school). Wall to wall people; everyone was wild and having "fun". The ladies were friendly.
One hint: go while you are still young! I'm not sure I woudl consider it as much fun now...
Cato
It really was a good time in New Orleans, but I didn't mean to shut down the discussion here!
:cool: :confused:
Take care, Cato
keenang
03-11-2003, 09:51 AM
THAT WAS REALLY A PIECE OF WORK.EVERY TIME I WOULD CALL DOC AND ASK A QUESTION HE WOULD SAY "LOOK IN THE MANUAL"
AS FOR THE THE MATCH UP BOOK I THOUGHT THERE WAS ONE GOOD PART WRITTEN BY MICHEAL P. I THINK IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH EARLY SPEED. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE SEMINARS THEY WERE A LOT OF FUN. OH TO BE YOUNG AGAIN BUT NOT QUITE SO NAIVE.
GENE
freeneasy
03-23-2003, 11:42 PM
yeah, Jim was a successful high school track coach, if he didnt mention that in his book, then Iam a little suprised. He was very strong on couple of points learned from his years in coaching. One point being, energy used and energy remaining.
He knew his compitition and taught his runners how to best utilize their energy under the duress of compitition for maximum output.
He laid out stratagies, conditioning and game plans that would best give his boys the fullest expected outcome using the fullest expected output based primarily on the extent talent, capabilities, strenghts and weaknesses of them thar runnin fools he done did train. The man could cap some.
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