OMG-This is Horrible!

[JustMissed]

[Quote]MSNBC News Services
updated less than 1 minute ago
BAGHDAD - Four U.S. soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in southern Baghdad late Sunday, raising the death toll for American forces since start of the war to 4,000, according to the Pentagon.

The grim milestone was reached less than a week after the fifth anniversary of the U.S. invasion to topple former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and coincided with a spate of violence across Iraq on Sunday that left at least 61 people dead.

The attacks included rockets and mortars fired at Baghdad's U.S.-protected Green Zone and a suicide car bomb detonated at an Iraqi army post in the northern city of Mosul.[EndQuote]

In all seriousness, just this morning when I read that the death count was 3,996, I thought to myself if anyone other than me cared about the 4,000th fallen soldier. And now he is dead.

I feel so bad about this.

If there is a God in Heaven I believe he shed a tear today.

JM

[JustRalph]

you are starting to get beyond crass (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crass)

[JustMissed]

you are starting to get beyond crass (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crass)

-0saX3rHBrI

JM :(

[JustRalph]

I am not moved. I know bullshit theatrics when I see it

[JustMissed]

I am not moved. I know bullshit theatrics when I see it

n/t

JM :(

[Indulto]

JM,
It makes you wonder if there is any number of dead and wounded and children without parents that would give some of our resident supporters of the Iraqi misadventure pause about the wisdom of their position.

The real BS theatrics, however, comes when they tell us that if we stop this nonsense, then all those prior sacrifices will be wasted.

If prayer is helpful, pray that we come to our collective senses. Sometimes I wonder if even the equivalent of another biblical curse on their first born would turn these Pharos’ hearts.

[Light]

The death rate drops from over a hundred Iraqi's dead per day to under 100 dead a day and they call that "succeeding". After 5 years Iraqi's are still without electricity most of the day and getting clean water is a big problem. That's success? At this rate, I can see why McCain says its going to take 100 years in Iraq.

Problem is America's economy will tank well before 100 years as the financial strain on an allready weakened dollar,and spiraling oil prices provide some of the Karmic payback for following a backward president. This war has allready cost more than the Korean and Vietnam wars. At $435 million per day, the cost of the war to this economy's heath is downplayed and underestimated in order to perpetuate the case for war. It may be this economic force and not a two faced politician that finally ends our occupation in a country we were doomed to fail because our intent was a lie.

[JustRalph]

435 Million a day huh? yeah right..........why not use the 720 million a day number the Washington Post dreamed up? The Pentagon Chief procurement officer testified recently that the costs were escalating.........but he did say that including the Afghanistan conflict the Pentagon was spending about 10 billion a month. I think you should check your math............who knows you may be right............but I don't buy your hypothesis even if your numbers are right..........there are a hell of lot of other reasons that the dollar is down and the credit crisis is happening. And the war ain't one of them.

[PaceAdvantage]

I feel so bad about this.I don't believe you. That's all I have to say.

[Marshall Bennett]

[Quote]MSNBC News Services
updated less than 1 minute ago
BAGHDAD - Four U.S. soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb in southern Baghdad late Sunday, raising the death toll for American forces since start of the war to 4,000, according to the Pentagon.

The grim milestone was reached less than a week after the fifth anniversary of the U.S. invasion to topple former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and coincided with a spate of violence across Iraq on Sunday that left at least 61 people dead.

The attacks included rockets and mortars fired at Baghdad's U.S.-protected Green Zone and a suicide car bomb detonated at an Iraqi army post in the northern city of Mosul.[EndQuote]

In all seriousness, just this morning when I read that the death count was 3,996, I thought to myself if anyone other than me cared about the 4,000th fallen soldier. And now he is dead.

I feel so bad about this.

If there is a God in Heaven I believe he shed a tear today.

JM
I praise our military leaders for posting such a low number ... compare this 5 year period with any other war . :cool:

[HUSKER55]

Those soldiers that died are ours. Get a grip everybody. Those soldiers are ours. I do not approve of the politics that got them sent there and I care less for the people that sent them there. But they served, they died and they are ours and it is to weep.


husker55

[Light]

435 Million a day huh? yeah right......... The Pentagon officer testified ..... was spending about 10 billion a month. I think you should check your math...........

$435 Million a day is $3 billion a week,or $12 billion a month. Dont get your panties caught in a twist over a couple of billion.

[delayjf]

$435 Million a day is $3 billion a week,or $12 billion a month. Dont get your panties caught in a twist over a couple of billion.

If you guys on the left would stop whining about not taking the Iraqi oil and get on board - we could turn this thing around and show a profit. ;)

[JustRalph]

$435 Million a day is $3 billion a week,or $12 billion a month. Dont get your panties caught in a twist over a couple of billion.

That is the attitude that gets us in trouble. A couple of billion here and there adds up......... :lol:

[Indulto]

If you guys on the left would stop whining about not taking the Iraqi oil and get on board - we could turn this thing around and show a profit. ;)Spoken like a true Republican. Your insensitive sense of humor reflects an inability to comprehend the non-monetary cost of this singular lack of judgement and abuse of authority.

But you've unintentionally contributed to my appreciation of the symbolism of the marchers as our soldiers are sent faceless to Iraq only to be returned faceless in coffins hidden from cameras, and then remain faceless as their sacrifices are trivialized by those who benefited from them the most.

[Lefty]

It's horrible that our soldiers die. But let's remember they have died for freedom and the safety of thehomefront and their loved ones. Even more horrible that we leave and let Al Qaeda and Iran have the place and we will have to start over from scratch.
God Bless Our Heros.

[delayjf]

Spoken like a true Republican. Your insensitive sense of humor reflects an inability to comprehend the non-monetary cost of this singular lack of judgement and abuse of authority.

But you've unintentionally contributed to my appreciation of the symbolism of the marchers as our soldiers are sent faceless to Iraq only to be returned faceless in coffins hidden from cameras, and then remain faceless as their sacrifices are trivialized by those who benefited from them the most.

Boy, where's you sense of humor. But if your going to get all serious on me.

My sarcasm was not aimed at the men and women who have served of which I am one - but rather at the idiotic members of the left who want to use their sacrifice as justification for their unpatriotic tirades.

I don't know if it applies to you or not (rhetorical), but I have serious doubts about the appreciation for the sacrifices of our military expressed by those you now call your friends. The truth is, their only goal is the destruction of this country and the principles that this country was founded upon. They hate this country and its traditions and values - which extends to the Military.

I wish some conservative economist would right a book about how much money it would cost the US (and the world) if terrorism was not confronted, but rather allowed to train and plan yet another attack on this country. Something along the lines of nuclear / bio weapon produced in Libya finds it's way into the hand of Al Qaeda, who then smuggles said weapon across the Mexican border and detonates said weapons in a major urban locations - say LA. What do you suppose the effect on the US economy would be What if instead of one, there were more than attack, say again in NY and LA or DC, how many trillions would that cost?

[rastajenk]

... in coffins hidden from cameras, and then remain faceless as their sacrifices are trivialized by those who benefited from them the most.

I don't know how you can possibly identify the who or quantify the most benefited...we're all in this together. But I imagine the coffins are hidden from cameras to prevent them from being exploited by the Cindy Sheehan/Code Pink/ANSWER types that hate Bush, hate the soldiers, hate the mission, and hate everything about the military, using the images in their stupid street parades and misguided demonstrations. The phony sorrow for the fallen is disgusting.

[Indulto]

Boy, where's you sense of humor. But if your going to get all serious on me.

My sarcasm was not aimed at the men and women who have served of which I am one - but rather at the idiotic members of the left who want to use their sacrifice as justification for their unpatriotic tirades.

I don't know if it applies to you or not (rhetorical), but I have serious doubts about the appreciation for the sacrifices of our military expressed by those you now call your friends. The truth is, their only goal is the destruction of this country and the principles that this country was founded upon. They hate this country and its traditions and values - which extends to the Military.

I wish some conservative economist would right a book about how much money it would cost the US (and the world) if terrorism was not confronted, but rather allowed to train and plan yet another attack on this country. Something along the lines of nuclear / bio weapon produced in Libya finds it's way into the hand of Al Qaeda, who then smuggles said weapon across the Mexican border and detonates said weapons in a major urban locations - say LA. What do you suppose the effect on the US economy would be What if instead of one, there were more than attack, say again in NY and LA or DC, how many trillions would that cost?My sense of humor (such as it is) is still intact as is my sense of urgency about the coming election. Actually this last post of yours is more amusing than the one that preceded it. It goes back to what I said in another thread about beagle-boy behavior -- same words different sequence. The first line of defense for your position is always to play the patriot card. Don't pussyfoot around. Are you calling my preceding post an "unpatriotic tirade?"

Whatever I think of your political position, I appreciate your service as I do that of others who have attempted to keep our democracy safe and our homes secure. If you accuse me of "not supporting the troops," however, then you descend to the level of distortion.

Please be specific about who I call my friends that in your estimation diminish me by association. Surely they deserve a chance to distance themselves from me. ;)

I do find some elements of the right-reclining positions here supportable to the extent I can. We both start out with a desire to preserve the country and the principles it was founded upon. We diverge as to which founding "traditions" and "values" we would keep or discard. Since the signing of the constitution, the tradition or value of preventing women from voting and permitting slavery have been discarded. I think that's a good thing and I'd never assume that you didn't.

If one is honest, one has to admit there are still aspects of our goverment and society that require adjustment; that there are inequities that need to be addressed. Our founding fathers understood the necessity of freedom of speech to keep the nation and its leaders on course.

One may hate the inequities imposed by imperfect leaders and accepted by an apathetic minority while not hating one's country of citizenship. One should always have the right to protest what one find's offensive as long as in the process of offending others, one does not violate their rights.

The question in your last paragraph is worth consideration by economists of any political persuasion.

Just to be clear, I am not anti-war. I believe our action in Afghanistan was legitimate, but the invasion of Iraq was not. I don't hate the military. I do hate the way that resource has been abused by our political leadership. I really hate the loss and ruination of lives for no justifiable purpose. There's more to patriotism than mounting a flag on one's SUV and trying to figure out whose God is correctly blessing America.

I still stand whenever I can see the flag being raised or lowered whether or not the national anthem is being played or sung. I can understand, however, how some might still take exception to the phrase "land of the free." It's in the interest of all of us to eliminate institutional motivation for that reaction.

The war in Iraq has been waged with the financial if not ethical burden of profiteers and mercenaries. We would be far safer today if that padded expenditure had been applied to securing our borders, and developing both technology and personnel to more accurately monitor terrorist activity throughout the world.

I'm convinced that we haven't had competent leadership since Truman. (If Tiger woods had been around, Eisenhower might never have gotten any work done.:D) I hope all patriotic Americans will look past each latest news buzz and try to figure out where they want the country to go and who's most likely to take them there. It would be great to see debate along those lines here.

[jonnielu]

$435 Million a day is $3 billion a week,or $12 billion a month. Dont get your panties caught in a twist over a couple of billion.

Who has got their panties in a wad? You send half of your income to government without a single question or a twitch of resistance, then you snivel about how they choose to waste it. If you hadn't traded your authority for the privilege of being a burden on your neighbors in your old age, you might be able to do more then snivel about government expenses. You've got the government you deserve.

jdl

[jonnielu]

I'm convinced that we haven't had competent leadership since Truman. (If Tiger woods had been around, Eisenhower might never have gotten any work done.:D) I hope all patriotic Americans will look past each latest news buzz and try to figure out where they want the country to go and who's most likely to take them there. It would be great to see debate along those lines here.

I am offended by people that are so ignorant as to identify America as a democracy.

No one is going to take you anywhere that you would want to go, it is long past time for you to get off of your can and make a grab for the wheel instead of buying into the fantasy that some politician is going to do anything for you.

jdl

[Light]

Who has got their panties in a wad?

JR

You send half of your income to government without a single question or a twitch of resistance, then you snivel about how they choose to waste it.

Not me.

If you hadn't traded your authority for the privilege of being a burden on your neighbors in your old age, you might be able to do more then snivel about government expenses. You've got the government you deserve.

jdl


You got me all wrong. I'm a political refugee.

[Indulto]

... No one is going to take you anywhere that you would want to go, it is long past time for you to get off of your can and make a grab for the wheel instead of buying into the fantasy that some politician is going to do anything for you. ...Indeed if one doesn't do it for oneself, no one should do it for him. However, only one person can be president at a time, so the best we can do is work to get like-thinking candidates elected.

Nice to see a vendor with time on his hands visiting off-topic. Must help sales.;)

[jballscalls]

When's the anniversary of Mission Accomplished??

Why do people say that the left hate america?? i love america, its great!!

Heard great reviews today about the movie Stop Loss that is coming out on Friday. Ryan Phillippe who stars in it, said it was very moving meeting many of the troops, many of whom have been stop lossed.

He did say that many of them are frustrated cause our media portrays only the bad things over there. he said many of the troops are very proud of the work they have done over there. He said the troops told him "you dont hear about when we build and open up a school."

[Tom]

Who has got their panties in a wad? You send half of your income to government without a single question or a twitch of resistance, then you snivel about how they choose to waste it. If you hadn't traded your authority for the privilege of being a burden on your neighbors in your old age, you might be able to do more then snivel about government expenses. You've got the government you deserve.

jdl

This is a post that should be printed out and hung on the refridgerator so it gets read every day.

We must never be lulled into thinking our government represents us in any way, shape, or form, and we must never, ever, trust any elected official. Always treat everything they say as a lie until proven otherwise. Even then, question the sources.

[Tom]

jb...good points. Soldiers I have talked to tell me nothing is more demoralizing to them than to be putting thier butts on the line every day over there and seeing the changes they are making only to hear from our so-called leaders back home that the war is lost, that we cannot win. Our national news media is a total disgrace - all of them. They cover Britney ore than they cover Iraq accomplishments.

BTW, you tag line about Rush....is they indict him, they have to indict Obama as well - he is doing the same thing now. :lol:

[Lefty]

Wow, what short memories these dems have. Back in 2000, the Dem party urged Dems to cross overin states where they could and vote for M'Cain against Bush. Now they wanna put Rush in jail for doing exactly what they did? That's why I call em dimdems.
Maher wishes he had a penis.

[delayjf]

Idulto,

You may have noticed that I did not necessarily level my remarks with regards to the liberal left’s position on the war directly at you. Rather, I left it open for interpretation – in a sort of “if the shoe fits wear it” kind of way.

Again, my satire was aimed at the “Bush orchestrated 9/11 so he and Cheney could make millions in oil profits” crowd.
Don't pussyfoot around. Are you calling my preceding post an "unpatriotic tirade?"
No, rather I interpreted you comments to mean you now supported the radical left’s position as has it has been present over and over on this board.
The first line of defense for your position is always to play the patriot card.
That’s because the first line of defense for the radical left is to claim patriotic equality between the simple exercising of a Constitution right (freedom of speech) with Military Service – and in my opinion they are not even close. The anti-military on the left hates that position (IMHO) because they know it’s true, so they retaliate by demeaning our Military.
I believe our action in Afghanistan was legitimate, but the invasion of Iraq was not.
Reasonable people can disagree as to the War in Iraq. Curious, did you agree with the majority in this country WRT the war in Iraq when the Intel consensus was that SH still processed WMD’s?
I really hate the loss and ruination of lives for no justifiable purpose.
I don’t see the sacrifice’s by our troops as unjustifiable. A murderous dictator with no compulsion for using WMD’s was disposed of. If left to his own, he would have continued to murder his own people and given his hatred of the US – just how long would it have been before SH and Al Qaeda did operate together. I’m amazed at the hypocrisy of the left – they only seem to care about Iraqi deaths when they are killed by American troops. Had the US found the same arsenal in Iraq that was discovered in Libya, the issue of whether or not the war was justifiable would be moot. But regardless of what country they were found, they are now gone and unavailable to terrorists. What do you think the logical outcome would be if the US ignored Iran’s pursuit of Nuclear weapons? What would be the effect on this economy in the event of even a limited nuclear exchange between Israel – Iran?
One may hate the inequities imposed by imperfect leaders and accepted by an apathetic minority while not hating one's country of citizenship.
What inequalities are you referring to here?
The war in Iraq has been waged with the financial if not ethical burden of profiteers and mercenaries.
The fact that some industry is going to profit from any government program is inevitable. Helicopter companies profited from the fires in California, for some American companies, Katrina was probably the best thing that ever happened to them.

[Indulto]

… You may have noticed that I did not necessarily level my remarks with regards to the liberal left’s position on the war directly at you. Rather, I left it open for interpretation – in a sort of “if the shoe fits wear it” kind of way.

Again, my satire was aimed at the “Bush orchestrated 9/11 so he and Cheney could make millions in oil profits” crowd.DJF,
Apparently your subtlety is beyond the grasp of this observer.No, rather I interpreted you comments to mean you now supported the radical left’s position as has it has been present over and over on this board.I have difficulty perceiving myself as “radical.” Perhaps you could refer me to a statement I have posted which fits that categorization.That’s because the first line of defense for the radical left is to claim patriotic equality between the simple exercising of a Constitution right (freedom of speech) with Military Service – and in my opinion they are not even close. The anti-military on the left hates that position (IMHO) because they know it’s true, so they retaliate by demeaning our Military.I have always advocated compulsory national service for young men and women that attempted to utilize each individual’s physical, intellectual, and psychological fitness appropriately; thereby eliminating resentment on the part of those who served toward those who did not. Ideally those qualifying for military and other hazardous duty (and their dependents) would receive some additional benefits and compensation while serving.

Regarding Freedom of Speech, IMO no-one’s political voice should be diminished or enhanced by the fact that they did or did not perform military service. No disrespect intended, your prior service adds no validity to your argument.Reasonable people can disagree as to the War in Iraq. Curious, did you agree with the majority in this country WRT the war in Iraq when the Intel consensus was that SH still processed WMD’s?I don’t know what a majority in this country believed. I agreed with the minority of Congresspersons and Senators who argued in opposition to giving the President the authority to invade.I don’t see the sacrifice’s by our troops as unjustifiable. A murderous dictator with no compulsion for using WMD’s was disposed of. If left to his own, he would have continued to murder his own people and given his hatred of the US – just how long would it have been before SH and Al Qaeda did operate together.The “murderous dictator” was already known as such when he was given WMDs by our government previously when it was thought to be in our interest to so. We reneged on support for the Kurdish revolt resulting in a bloodbath, so what changed the value we placed on Iraqi lives? Nothing, since shock and awe was anticipated as taking out substantial numbers of civilian lives; certainly far exceeding Saddam’s expected toll. The likelihood of co-operation between SH and AQ can’t be proven. Many “experts” felt there was little to suggest that would happen.I’m amazed at the hypocrisy of the left – they only seem to care about Iraqi deaths when they are killed by American troops. Had the US found the same arsenal in Iraq that was discovered in Libya, the issue of whether or not the war was justifiable would be moot. But regardless of what country they were found, they are now gone and unavailable to terrorists.I don't understand the underlined statement. As I pointed out earlier, hypocrisy re: Iraqi life value is the province of the right.What do you think the logical outcome would be if the US ignored Iran’s pursuit of Nuclear weapons?The US should not ignore any aspect of Iran’s nuclear program or that of any other potentially new nuclear power. With cooperative monitoring by multiple countries, and discontinued threats on the part of the US, Iran should be allowed to develop its electrical power capacity.What would be the effect on this economy in the event of even a limited nuclear exchange between Israel – Iran?I doubt YOU can answer that question.What inequalities are you referring to here?The fact that the burden of military service is unequal across economic divisions, repeated redeployment of the National Guard is unfair, and that contract soldiers receive greater compensation for the same risk. The fact that ease of (and obstacles to) voting varies among ethnic communities -- just to mention a few.The fact that some industry is going to profit from any government program is inevitable. Helicopter companies profited from the fires in California, for some American companies, Katrina was probably the best thing that ever happened to them.What does comparing responses to random natural disasters with planned military actions have to do with comparing right and wrong?

I'd say your position deserves designation as radical or extreme much more than mine. ;)

[Light]

It's horrible that our soldiers die. But let's remember they have died for freedom and the safety .....

It's one thing to be sacrificed for a real threat. Another thing when your commander and chief uses the American military like dirt by conjuring up false reasons to invade Iraq and sending duped Americans soldiers to their deaths or to be maimed for life,all for his greedy agenda. You are blinded by the office he holds and cant see the most unamerican man in the country playing with your foolish trust. This is why the decisions of leaders need to be questioned and why our constitution allows it. Those who think you should just be and obedient dog to your masters are doing America a great disservice. You are the ones who should leave America and go find a Bushlike dictator in a banana republic. There your narrow minded slogans will work. A free society requires the constant scrutiny of its leaders and policies. Not blind rhetoric.

[Tom]

This just in....you're wrong.

[Lefty]

light, the data was scrutinized by both repubs and dems and on the basis of worlwide data and observations made by Clinton people like Albright, they voted to give Bush the authority.
While Americans like me do scrutinize and hold the govt accountable for its actions, agree on some disagree on some, you yourself have admitted you have fled. So, you are sans credibility.

[JustRalph]

There were 8 other countries besides the U.S. who also had reached the same conclusion. Saddam pulled off a big fake out. It cost us and other countries. I blame our intelligence for not getting to the bottom of it faster.

Bush and Cheney are to be blamed for not ending this thing faster.

[Light]

Its been made public that the WH fabricated the entire threat from Iraq. They pressured Tenet and the CIA to come up with an NIE report favorable to attacking Iraq when previously their intelligence found no connection with 911 and Iraq/Saddam.The Cheney staff went to various newspapers claiming things like Aluminum tubes. When the N.Y. Times broke that story based on the Cheney plants,Cheney goes on TV citing the N.Y. Times story as evidence that Iraq is trying to get WMD's when his office planted the story in the first place. The Congress was forbidden to see intelligence contrary to pro war views. They had no reason to doubt Bush and company,so they believed him. The yellowcake speech was one of the slip ups they left in a speech full of lies.The CIA verified there was no such thing and the Valerie Plame scandal came out of that.It goes on and on.

This has been a total Watergate all over again. The men in charge are all criminals. Today all the accusations have been proven false,but we also know they were fabricated by the Bush team. Saddam may have been a bad guy,but he had nothing to do with 911 and fasifying information about it as Cheney did for months all over the television is criminal because it has left all those American and Iraqi dead and injured.

I am not preaching some leftist ideology. These are cold hard facts. That people like you choose to ignore these criminal actions of your leaders is most unamerican,yet you like to think of yourselves as somehow representing traditional America. Instead you represent corrupt America.

[Lefty]

light, more nonsense. Bush fabricated worlwide intel? Pure crap. The dems had no reason to distrust Bush? Yeah right; they trusted him when they hated his guts. And when they did nothing at all times but call him stupid and crooked? They voted without seeing the data? Yeah, right. If so, the dems don't deserve their posts. (they don't anyway, but that's another story)
More nonsense from a pure socialist that hates this country.

[delayjf]

I have difficulty perceiving myself as “radical.”
I never said that you were, rather you insinuated that you agreed with the Bush conspiracy crowd. That’s why I didn’t direct my comments specifically at you. If that’s not true fine.
Your insensitive sense of humor reflects an inability to comprehend the non-monetary cost of this singular lack of judgement and abuse of authority.
Believe me, I understand.
Regarding Freedom of Speech, IMO no-one’s political voice should be diminished or enhanced by the fact that they did or did not perform military service. No disrespect intended, your prior service adds no validity to your argument.
None taken, however; to the extent that the subject is the American Military I disagree. That's not to say they don't have a right to speak, but I’d be more inclined to listen to someone with knowledge and experience than someone who has never been there or done that.
I agreed with the minority of Congresspersons and Senators who argued in opposition to giving the President the authority to invade.Curious as to why.
The “murderous dictator” was already known as such when he was given WMDs by our government previously when it was thought to be in our interest to so. We reneged on support for the Kurdish revolt
Agreed, the US (and the rest of the world) was wrong to supply SH with the means to build his WMD program – and the US was wrong to pull out on the Kurds. But I don’t feel doing the wrong thing then is an excuse for doing the wrong thing now.
But regardless of what country they were found, they are now gone and unavailable to terrorists.
Refers to the fact that Libya was motivated by the events in Iraq to come clean and give up his WMD programs – an unintended benefit of the war.
I doubt YOU can answer that question.
No I can’t, but if 9/11 is any indication, it would probably shut down the entire region for a period of time.
The fact that the burden of military service is unequal across economic divisions.
True, but it has provided a way out for millions of Americans over the years that might otherwise be stuck in dead end situations. It is an all volunteer force, I don't think a draft for the rich would pass Constitutional muster.
What does comparing responses to random natural disasters with planned military actions have to do with comparing right and wrong?
It doesn’t, the point I was trying to make was that when the Government spends money – it’s inevitable that US Corporations will prosper.

[ArlJim78]

There were 8 other countries besides the U.S. who also had reached the same conclusion. Saddam pulled off a big fake out. It cost us and other countries. I blame our intelligence for not getting to the bottom of it faster.

Bush and Cheney are to be blamed for not ending this thing faster.
agree with this. while i support the whole Iraq operation what I see missing is an aggressive plan to get out which should be a prime objective.

[Lefty]

light, please show uis those cold hard facts. And I mean facts not some leftwingers opinions. If these facts did exist, then Bush would have been impeached long ago.

[delayjf]

agree with this. while i support the whole Iraq operation what I see missing is an aggressive plan to get out which should be a prime objective.
A couple of reasons as to why the US MIGHT be lingering in Iraq.

- to prevent the bloodshed of an internal Civil War and to minimize Iran's influence in Iraq.

- Puts the US in a better position to deal with Iran and their attempts to develop nuclear weapons.

[chickenhead]

agree with this. while i support the whole Iraq operation what I see missing is an aggressive plan to get out which should be a prime objective.

after listening to many of the people inside the admin the last few nights describe the last few years in iraq from the perspective of the major insiders, the plan all along, until Rummy got sacked, was to get out immediately, always. The problem was, they never had a plan on how to implement that plan. So "tomorrow" never came. Chalabi was the plan, that went nowhere, and they were left standing there with their d***s in their hands.

[Tom]

Watchinghte Frontline show the last two nights was interesting. We did the right thing the wrong way at every turn. A botched operation from the get go, the people running it were morons, Bush included. Anyone who listened to Rumsfeld has to be a moron. Cony Rice was the one bright light of the whole deal, imho. And Powell, if he had had the guts stand up challenge the inner circle. I thought once he would be a perfect president, but now, I have no use for him.

Still, Bush was still head and shoulders above Gore or Kerry.

[delayjf]

We did the right thing the wrong way at every turn.
I think the intial invasion went fine. After that the Rumsfield Doctrine fell apart.

[Tom]

I think it fell apart the day the looting started.
Not having a plan for the army and police who were out of work, on the street, and armed was a bonehead move.

[Light]

light, please show uis those cold hard facts. And I mean facts not some leftwingers opinions.

You should watch Frontline too.You can watch it online. Everything I said is in there with words from the guys lips who were involved. I doubt you'll watch it. Just keep telling me how much I hate this country. Maybe if you inform yourself a little you may have a more intelligent response.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

[Indulto]

I never said that you were, rather you insinuated that you agreed with the Bush conspiracy crowd. That’s why I didn’t direct my comments specifically at you. If that’s not true fine.Which alleged Bush conspiracy are you talking about? ;) Believe me, I understand.I believe you think you do.None taken, however; to the extent that the subject is the American Military I disagree. That's not to say they don't have a right to speak, but I’d be more inclined to listen to someone with knowledge and experience than someone who has never been there or done that.That is reasonable. It's unfortunate that Bush wouldn't listen to military personnel who advised him that far greater resources were required for a successful conclusion making the adventure impractical as well as irresponsible. I support the constitutional authority of political leadership over military leadership, but I think it would help if future commander-in-chiefs don't believe God wanted them to run for president. A president who believes that believes a lot of things are possible that aren't.Curious as to why.Because they made sense.Agreed, the US (and the rest of the world) was wrong to supply SH with the means to build his WMD program – and the US was wrong to pull out on the Kurds. But I don’t feel doing the wrong thing then is an excuse for doing the wrong thing now.Agreed, but what's the wrong thing? IMO American troops should no longer be patrolling Iraqi streets, but instead guarding Iraqi borders while they resolve their internal conflict on their own. We should, however, also make sure the Kurds are protected as they appear to be the only pro-US faction there.

We shouldn't allow American soldiers to sacrifice their lives and limbs to prevent Iraqis from killing each other over religious differences. Left to their own devices, their government will either assume it's responsibility or else Iraq will partition itself through flight. If you, as one with military experience, cannot appreciate the long-term futility of trying to merely minimize a) the damage to Iraq internally, b) our own loss of life, limb, and resources, and 3) our ability to deal with military threats elsewhere, then IMO you weaken your contention that your experience gives your argument more weight.Refers to the fact that Libya was motivated by the events in Iraq to come clean and give up his WMD programs – an unintended benefit of the war.One could also say the war was an unintended benfit for Qadafy, giving him an opportunity to reverse an unnecessary, unwise, expensive, and dangerous policy with minimal loss of face. No I can’t, but if 9/11 is any indication, it would probably shut down the entire region for a period of time.Where do you see the military and financial resources coming from to deal with such circumstances?True, but it has provided a way out for millions of Americans over the years that might otherwise be stuck in dead end situations. It is an all volunteer force, I don't think a draft for the rich would pass Constitutional muster.I assume you're being tongue-in-cheek here since everybody would be conscripted INCLUDING the rich and not LIMITED to them. Distortion makes the value of debating debatable. :ThmbDown:

Also, many believe that an all-volunteer army is more susceptible to misuse because an army more willing (as opposed to ready) to fight is more likely to. A volunteer national guard would be better deployed getting gang members and drug dealers off our the streets and protecting our borders.It doesn’t, the point I was trying to make was that when the Government spends money – it’s inevitable that US Corporations will prosper.That’s fine. A corporation should prosper when it isn't operating outside the law, to the detriment of society as a whole. and/or for the excessive enrichment of a few at the unconscionable expense of many without choice.

Hopefully, some negative campaign videos will be produced including:
a) the faulty body armor manufacturer who paid over $1 million for his daughter's religious confirmation (bat mitzvah) party.
b) corporate executives who made fortunes on stock options while their companies tanked; leaving employees without a future
c) companies outsourcing jobs to China and third world labor markets leaving Americans without jobs and health coverage
d) oil company executives cashing in on windfall profits
e) drug companies who pay ex-politician lobbyists to get sweetheart deals through medicare.
f) credit card companies who raise rates to compound customers financial difficulties as soon as they occur.
g) mortgage company who made subprime loans
h) and so on ...

Who in their right mind would want four more years like the last eight? :bang:

[delayjf]

Agreed, but what's the wrong thing?
IMO, pulling out at this point and allowing hundreds of thousands to be killed, similar to the way the US pulled out of SE Asia, then sat on our hands and watched as Pol Pot murdered 1 million of his own countrymen.
IMO American troops should no longer be patrolling Iraqi streets, but instead guarding Iraqi borders while they resolve their internal conflict on their own. We should, however, also make sure the Kurds are protected as they appear to be the only pro-US faction there.
That is the goal, and more and more that is exactly what is happening. Most of the fighting today between the Mahdi Army and the Government is being conducted by Iraqis
If you, as one with military experience, cannot appreciate the long-term futility of trying to merely minimize a) the damage to Iraq internally, b) our own loss of life, limb, and resources, and 3) our ability to deal with military threats elsewhere, then IMO you weaken your contention that your experience gives your argument more weight.
The damage to Iraq has been done. The loss of American lives is tragic. Presently there is no other military threat with the possible exception of Iran, for which we are now positioned to deal with. If you’re referring to Afghanistan, shifting all resources from Iraq to Afghanistan will be no less expensive and will do no good – unless the US is willing to cross the border into Pakistan. From my perspective pulling out of Iraq at this point could very likely lead to a Civil War (which no doubt would be fueled by Iran) would cost the lives of hundreds of thousands Iraqis – with the big winners ultimately being Iran and Al Qaeda. One of the cornerstones of Al Qaeda’s strategy is to simply kill American Soldier and wait until the US grows tired and disillusioned with the war – a strategy that was successful in Vietnam and to a degree in Somalia. Unlike Vietnam, the enemy’s ultimate goal is not unification of their country – rather it’s the destruction of Western culture and they have made that clear. If history is any guide, there are numerous examples of the outcome of premature American withdraw from regions in conflict (SE Asia, Afghanistan, Somalia, The kurds). In contrast, Germany, Italy, Japan, and S. Korea have all flourished.
Other questions to ask; What would be the effect of premature withdraw on US credibility in the world or with our allies? Would the victory by Al Qaeda embolden them to conduct more attacks on the US or Israel? If so, how might Israel respond (nuclear ??).
Where do you see the military and financial resources coming from to deal with such circumstances?
My comment was more directed on the disruption of trade worldwide (Oil) that would ensue such a conflict.
I assume you're being tongue-in-cheek here since everybody would be conscripted INCLUDING the rich and not LIMITED to them. Distortion makes the value of debating debatable.
Agreed, if the draft was fair across the board with no deferments, that would be fine with me.
Also, many believe that an all-volunteer army is more susceptible to misuse because an army more willing (as opposed to ready) to fight is more likely to.
I’m not sure why that would be the case, The Military serves at the pleasure of the Gov. But if you compare the military of the Vietnam era vs. today’s military. Today’s military far exceeds that era’s military in terms of moral, motivation, and professionalism, which translates into a Military more capable of completing its mission. Personally, I would rather go into combat with Volunteers who want to serve than with conscripts.
A volunteer national guard would be better deployed getting gang members and drug dealers off our the streets and protecting our borders.
You get no argument from me here – but I know a lot of people will be screaming about the Passe Comitatus violations.

[Indulto]

... The damage to Iraq has been done. The loss of American lives is tragic. Presently there is no other military threat with the possible exception of Iran, for which we are now positioned to deal with. If you’re referring to Afghanistan, shifting all resources from Iraq to Afghanistan will be no less expensive and will do no good – unless the US is willing to cross the border into Pakistan. From my perspective pulling out of Iraq at this point could very likely lead to a Civil War (which no doubt would be fueled by Iran) would cost the lives of hundreds of thousands Iraqis – with the big winners ultimately being Iran and Al Qaeda. One of the cornerstones of Al Qaeda’s strategy is to simply kill American Soldier and wait until the US grows tired and disillusioned with the war – a strategy that was successful in Vietnam and to a degree in Somalia. Unlike Vietnam, the enemy’s ultimate goal is not unification of their country – rather it’s the destruction of Western culture and they have made that clear. If history is any guide, there are numerous examples of the outcome of premature American withdraw from regions in conflict (SE Asia, Afghanistan, Somalia, The kurds). In contrast, Germany, Italy, Japan, and S. Korea have all flourished.
Other questions to ask; What would be the effect of premature withdraw on US credibility in the world or with our allies? Would the victory by Al Qaeda embolden them to conduct more attacks on the US or Israel? If so, how might Israel respond (nuclear ??).

... You get no argument from me here – but I know a lot of people will be screaming about the Passe Comitatus violations.Very interesting post, DJF. There's a lot I want to address here, but I have a date with a 50c Pick 6 at GP on Saturday, and I need all the focus I can muster; especially since I wanted to play the Dubai card as well.

Before I go, you might be interested in this:

http://www.fcw.com/print/8_2/news/75704-1.html
Is (http://www.fcw.com/print/8_2/news/75704-1.html) Posse Comitatus passe?
By Carl Peckinpaugh
... Under the U.S. Constitution, most of the important governmental powers affecting individual lives lie not at the federal level, but with the states. Indeed, almost all of the laws defining criminal acts and their punishments are state laws. Almost all of the country's criminal enforcement professionals work for the states and their constituent local governments. For this reason, the United States does not have, and has never had, a national police force — unlike most other countries. Although the United States has a strong national military, members of the uniformed military forces are forbidden by both law and tradition from active participation in domestic law enforcement. The strongest statement on this point is found in the Posse Comitatus Act, which makes it a federal crime to employ "any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws." Congress passed the act in 1878 in reaction to the use of military forces to police and control polling places in Southern states. Since then, Congress has authorized several closely defined exceptions to the general prohibition. There are also fewer limits on the Coast Guard, an arm of the Transportation Department, and on the National Guard, which operates under the direction of state governors. This is why the troops in airports are from the National Guard, not military reserves. Until very recently, most citizens agreed on the basic propriety of this arrangement. However, after the Sept. 11 attacks, some have called these principles into question. ...

[toetoe]

Indulto,

In our meeting the other day, what part of "NO FOCUS MUSTERING !!" did you not understand, pray tell ?

The obsession with round numbers has even claimed Steven Crist, who laments the dearth of triple-digit Beyer nags.
One question: Double-U Tee Eff ? :confused: :confused:

[Indulto]

Indulto,

In our meeting the other day, what part of "NO FOCUS MUSTERING !!" did you not understand, pray tell ?

The obsession with round numbers has even claimed Steven Crist, who laments the dearth of triple-digit Beyer nags.
One question: Double-U Tee Eff ? :confused: :confused:The "NON COMPOS MENTIS" part.:D

WTF is, by itself, not a question. Triple-digit Beyers should be lamented for their girth, not their dearth, as they attract far too much FOCUS and thus given too much weight.

[Tom]

T

...Triple-digit Beyers should be lamented for their girth, not their dearth, as they attract far too much FOCUS and thus given too much weight.

HEY!

You're ON TOPIC in OFF TOPIC.





:lol:

[chickenhead]

IMO, pulling out at this point and allowing hundreds of thousands to be killed, similar to the way the US pulled out of SE Asia, then sat on our hands and watched as Pol Pot murdered 1 million of his own countrymen.

The thing that isn't clear to me, is that if this is going to happen now, it is not also going to happen 5 years from now. It's not clear what progress is being made that is going to transform things to the point where there won't be a bloody power struggle when we leave. It seems that even while we are there, we've got the bloody power struggle going on.

[Tom]

The law of diminishing returns has taken effect.
We are no longer willing to do what it takes to make a difference, so we might as well come home.

Every time we get someting going and start to make a difference, Bush loses interest and we stop making gains.

Our intitial goals have long been met - I don't see anything postiive yet to achieve.

Maybe we should go look for............hmmmmmmm......BIN FRIGGIN LADEN?


Even at home, we are allowing TSA to crack down on nipple rings at airports!!!! Our war on terror has turned into an assault on our intelligence.
Stick a fork in us.....we are done. And withthe Three Stooges on deck for he White House, it is time to grab out ankles and grit our teeth.

[JustRalph]

The thing that isn't clear to me, is that if this is going to happen now, it is not also going to happen 5 years from now. It's not clear what progress is being made that is going to transform things to the point where there won't be a bloody power struggle when we leave. It seems that even while we are there, we've got the bloody power struggle going on.


The longer we are there, the more time the Iraqi Army and Police have to strengthen. This is apparant today as the Iraqi Army is "leading" in Basra.

Btw, nobody is mentioning that Basra was declared secure by the Brits over two years ago and over the last two years they have allowed 30 million in Oil a month to be removed by Sadr's Troops. The Brits have been sitting on their hands and watching this take place. The new British Prime minister has been slowly withdrawing Troops ever since he was elected. The Brits are down to less than 5k Troops and today they ordered their Aircraft into the Air to assist the Iraqi Army, even though they weren't asked. This could play very poorly for the Brits if someone decides to write about it. This has recently come to light in some small media outlets. This is the impetus for the move into Basra by the Iraqi Army. Sadr has been residing in Iran for over a year now and funneling money to Iran from the stolen oil profits. He is flush with cash and still trying to rule his group from across the border. The Iraqi PM decided to move now, because Sadr is afraid to leave Iran. Time to cut the head off the snake.

Btw, There were some Iraqi vets (just back, and some seriously injured) having lunch in my wife's restaurant yesterday and they say that this theft of oil has been a well known item for months now, at least among the Troops over in Iraq.

[PaceAdvantage]

Its been made public that the WH fabricated the entire threat from Iraq.You're right. If it weren't for Bush/Cheney, Iraq and Saddam would have been well on their way to becoming the Sweden of the Middle East.

[PaceAdvantage]

agree with this. while i support the whole Iraq operation what I see missing is an aggressive plan to get out which should be a prime objective.You get out when there is no longer any reason for you to be there....

[ddog]

The longer we are there, the more time the Iraqi Army and Police have to strengthen. This is apparant today as the Iraqi Army is "leading" in Basra.

Btw, nobody is mentioning that Basra was declared secure by the Brits over two years ago and over the last two years they have allowed 30 million in Oil a month to be removed by Sadr's Troops. The Brits have been sitting on their hands and watching this take place. The new British Prime minister has been slowly withdrawing Troops ever since he was elected. The Brits are down to less than 5k Troops and today they ordered their Aircraft into the Air to assist the Iraqi Army, even though they weren't asked. This could play very poorly for the Brits if someone decides to write about it. This has recently come to light in some small media outlets. This is the impetus for the move into Basra by the Iraqi Army. Sadr has been residing in Iran for over a year now and funneling money to Iran from the stolen oil profits. He is flush with cash and still trying to rule his group from across the border. The Iraqi PM decided to move now, because Sadr is afraid to leave Iran. Time to cut the head off the snake.

Btw, There were some Iraqi vets (just back, and some seriously injured) having lunch in my wife's restaurant yesterday and they say that this theft of oil has been a well known item for months now, at least among the Troops over in Iraq.

The Bristish PM RAN on withdrawal of brits, it wasn't hidden when they turned over control of Basra , it was all over the news and trumpted as a success when in fact it was a concession to facts on the ground and a payoff to leave us alone.

Sadr may or may not be in Iran , but he is not the closest to the Iraninans, that is Maliki.
What you and your troops there don't see it seems is that Iran is playing both sides.
Sadr ran the cease fire because he didn't want to take on the US directly. smart move.
Also, during that period we would then pay him & underlings to be "with" us. smart move again.

NOW,follow along, when "trouble" comes up within Sadr's group from whatever actions , either US or Maliki or just general grudge type, the sub groups of Sadr bunch that split off are then bankrolled by the Iranians and turned loose against anyone that group doesn't like including former Sadrists.

Lot's of Sadrist don't agree with the cease fire.

So, I will stop here , but into this comes who, Maliki with a bunch of punks called the Iraqi security force?
Most of them can't fight their way out of paper bag for this so called gvt.
Hell, lots of them gave up and went over to fight for the so called insurgents that they were sent to Basra to "putdown".

Notice the several deadlines that Maliki gave to the Sadrists and how they kept getting extended.
That wasn't out of a sense of mercy, I can tell you.
The Maliki "forces" were defeated or at best stalemated.

The US is now trying to figure what we can get down there to assist.

Notwithstanding all the other slogans you hear about Iraq, we do not understand anything about the forces and how they interact over there.

It was the one reason why we should not have and should not now stay there.
Whatever will happen will only be delayed not prevented by our staying in force.

I am perfectly ok with them fighting it out if that is THEIR choice. It is or was their country, right?

It's not going to lead to a wider war, the other countries are not itching for that either.

I don't know of a country in history that has ever been prevented from having a civil war by an outside force imposing order forever??

If we defeat AQ in Iraq, then as in AFG and other countries won't that just disperse the leftovers to surrounding countries?
of course it will.
will we follow them there as well?
Will we take over Saudi Arabi, the mother ship of AQ?
I think not.

The b.s about AQ having a victory is stupid.
The Iraqi people seem to have shown that they don't want AQ there already.

The problem is that now that we have jumped in, several of our oil budies over there outside of Iraq, and it isn't Isreal, don't want us to leave.

Anything we need to do can be done with small special forces buying friends there and air power, including Iran.

Let them sort it out and start on the way out.
Declare victory and leave it at that.

[JustRalph]

The Bristish PM RAN on withdrawal of brits, it wasn't hidden when they turned over control of Basra , it was all over the news and trumpted as a success when in fact it was a concession to facts on the ground and a payoff to leave us alone.


I didn't say their withdrawal was hidden? I said the theft of Oil has been not well known. Find me a newspaper article previous to the last month where the article explains that the Brits are allowing 30 million in oil to be stolen every month?

[ddog]

I didn't say their withdrawal was hidden? I said the theft of Oil has been not well known. Find me a newspaper article previous to the last month where the article explains that the Brits are allowing 30 million in oil to be stolen every month?


stolen from whom?
where did it end up?

how about the 1Billion that was embezzelled in 2004-2005 by the top "officers" in the Iraqi defense force that was to have gone for weapons/supplies,etc.

Find a story on that one.

Oh by the way toward the end of 2003 our "trainer" over there said the Iraqi forces were coming along well and seemed very steady at that time, right before they skated with the cash.

That would have been the MNF commander NOW , none other than Gen.P.


Also, if you don't think that we are breeding a generation of kids/teens with a violent opinion toward this country you are really in a fools paradise.

When you bomb/shell or kill a kids folks and his house/town is turned into a living hell AND WE don't make sure to take care of those kids orphanned by the actions, even if not ours directly, WHO do you thinks picks them up?

Maybe Sadr,maybe AQ, maybe other groups we don't know about.

This is the Pandoras box to Hell of all time that we have kicked open, no matter our intentions.

[Lefty]

[QUOTE=ddog]


Also, if you don't think that we are breeding a generation of kids/teens with a violent opinion toward this country you are really in a fools paradise.

When you bomb/shell or kill a kids folks and his house/town is turned into a living hell AND WE don't make sure to take care of those kids orphanned by the actions, even if not ours directly, WHO do you thinks picks them up?


Of course, these kids and their parents were livingin the land of milk and honey when Saddam was in charge...

[JustRalph]

I don't care about what we are breeding. As long as the kids over here have the best military and weapons........one problem takes care of the other.

American kids I care about........... and hopefully the Americans stay on top.

[Tom]

My problem is that we had to go into Afghanistan because we could not allow Al Qeda a safe heaven to operate from.

So now they are operating out of Pakistan.
Our war on terror is woefully of course.

[Marshall Bennett]

Their principle target remains Iraq , should we abandon the situation there ( as Obama pledges to do ) they would indeed own a safe haven . What a disaster .

[Indulto]

IMO, pulling out at this point and allowing hundreds of thousands to be killed, similar to the way the US pulled out of SE Asia, then sat on our hands and watched as Pol Pot murdered 1 million of his own countrymen.People will continue to die if we stay and Iraq would partition itself before such at toll was exacted.That is the goal, and more and more that is exactly what is happening. Most of the fighting today between the Mahdi Army and the Government is being conducted by Iraqis.The Mahdi Army is only one source of dissension. Who was responsible for all the violence and mayhem during their alleged "cease-fire?"The damage to Iraq has been done.More damage is being inflicted even as the initial damage fails to be addressed.The loss of American lives is tragic.Will future losses of life and limb be any less tragic? There is no end in sight because apparently we would rather compound loss than admit it.Presently there is no other military threat with the possible exception of Iran, for which we are now positioned to deal with.How are we better positioned to deal with Iran by fighting Iraqis rather than guarding Iraq's border with Iran? If you’re referring to Afghanistan, shifting all resources from Iraq to Afghanistan will be no less expensive and will do no good – unless the US is willing to cross the border into Pakistan. From my perspective pulling out of Iraq at this point could very likely lead to a Civil War (which no doubt would be fueled by Iran) would cost the lives of hundreds of thousands Iraqis – with the big winners ultimately being Iran and Al Qaeda.How could Iran and Al Qaeda both be winners? Shia Iran would never peacefully co-exist with the Sunni Al Qaeda.One of the cornerstones of Al Qaeda’s strategy is to simply kill American Soldier and wait until the US grows tired and disillusioned with the war – a strategy that was successful in Vietnam and to a degree in Somalia. Unlike Vietnam, the enemy’s ultimate goal is not unification of their country – rather it’s the destruction of Western culture and they have made that clear.Please explain what constitutes an Al Qaeda “victory” in Iraq and what it would accomplish for them in the short and long-term? They already claim victory now and will continue to do so no matter what we do short of capturing or killing OBL.If history is any guide, there are numerous examples of the outcome of premature American withdraw from regions in conflict (SE Asia, Afghanistan, Somalia, The kurds). In contrast, Germany, Italy, Japan, and S. Korea have all flourished.Weren’t the latter already industrialized nations without internal warring factions that just needed a trading partner as their occupier to resume normalcy?Other questions to ask; What would be the effect of premature withdraw on US credibility in the world or with our allies?How would world opinion of us suffer any more than it already has? The world might actually applaud us with the possible exception of Israel. While I don't believe the Israeli government bears any responsibilty for our invading in Iraq, I think they used that action to justify hardening their stance toward the Palestinians. IMO it also encouraged their own misadventure in Lebanon.Would the victory by Al Qaeda embolden them to conduct more attacks on the US or Israel? If so, how might Israel respond (nuclear ??).Israel might wind up making concessions to achieve progress in the peace negotiations with the Palestinaians.My comment was more directed on the disruption of trade worldwide (Oil) that would ensue such a conflict.We need to end our dependence on Middle Eastern oil.Agreed, if the draft was fair across the board with no deferments, that would be fine with me.Who says we have no common ground?I’m not sure why that would be the case, The Military serves at the pleasure of the Gov. But if you compare the military of the Vietnam era vs. today’s military. Today’s military far exceeds that era’s military in terms of moral, motivation, and professionalism, which translates into a Military more capable of completing its mission. Personally, I would rather go into combat with Volunteers who want to serve than with conscripts.I'm suree you'll agree that there have been some conscripts who have served with distinction just as there have been some flawed volunteers who were there for the wrong reasons and who cause different problems. The results in Iraq should give the military some pause as to whether a) offense is the best defense and b) whether it can fight wars in the future when citizens are no longer willing to volunteer.You get no argument from me here – but I know a lot of people will be screaming about the Passe Comitatus violations.Which is why additional categories of national service are necessary. As the economy continues to falter, there may have to be compulsory service to perform a lot of functions.

The illegal immigration issue will eventually become the dominant one. Now that Americans are less able to house, clothe, feed, and provide medical care for themselves, they’ll be even less willing to do it for families of illegal aliens. The peace keepers in Iraq may be required to keep peace at home. What would Al Qaeda's response be to that?

[ddog]

[QUOTE=ddog]


Also, if you don't think that we are breeding a generation of kids/teens with a violent opinion toward this country you are really in a fools paradise.

When you bomb/shell or kill a kids folks and his house/town is turned into a living hell AND WE don't make sure to take care of those kids orphanned by the actions, even if not ours directly, WHO do you thinks picks them up?


Of course, these kids and their parents were livingin the land of milk and honey when Saddam was in charge...

Lefty, you have obvioulsy NOT BEEN there at any time.
compared to what they have now in most locals, it was better.

There was a "game" one could play and get along ok.
They have nothing now , there is no "game" to get in on to try to succeed.

Saddam was bad, yes, that's got nothing to do with now or the future , he is gone , get over him.

The point is still solid, we are helping to build the very thing we say we are against.

it was always true.

[ddog]

I don't care about what we are breeding. As long as the kids over here have the best military and weapons........one problem takes care of the other.

American kids I care about........... and hopefully the Americans stay on top.


You also don't have any idea of how bad it is there and how much like a prison camp even the "lowered violence" zones are.

You and we will care about this and to shove your head up your behind on it is to do all this for nothing in the long run.

[lsbets]

Ddog - when were you there?

[Lefty]

ddog, what happened to Saddam and what he did to his people doesmatter. You can't ignore that fact just because you choose two. The past always impinges on the future.
I've stated many times my view of what will happen ifwe just pick up and leave.
What's your view of what will happen if we do that?

[Tom]

The illegal immigration issue will eventually become the dominant one. Now that Americans are less able to house, clothe, feed, and provide medical care for themselves, they’ll be even less willing to do it for families of illegal aliens. The peace keepers in Iraq may be required to keep peace at home. What would Al Qaeda's response be to that?

It is number one with me.
A government that will not protect our sovereignty is one the need to be disolved. This, time I say we dump senators into the Boston Harbor.

This is why I will never support Juan McCain't on any issue for any reason.
My policy is never support traitors, and he is a traitor to us in that repsect.
Now he is a liar, too. Screw Juan McCanin't and the horse he rode in on.

And yes, his age does matter. How old is McCain't....TOO OLD.:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

This is also why we need to bring home all the troops now. We cannot leave our soldier in that area with any of the three who will be the next president.

[JustRalph]

You also don't have any idea of how bad it is there and how much like a prison camp even the "lowered violence" zones are.

You and we will care about this and to shove your head up your behind on it is to do all this for nothing in the long run.


You don't get it. I don't care about anybody but Americans.

I have had discussions as recently as this week with soldiers who have returned from Iraq and they tell a different story than you. They say that over 75 percent of the country is doing well and growing better every day. I will take their word for it.

Don't forget, I am in favor of taking the damn country and making it more of a U.S. territory......... I am an imperialist dog.........remember?

Btw, Mr. Sadr has surrendered as of the last news update.............he can see the writing on the wall.