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Hank
03-20-2008, 11:42 PM
The 5 best race Horses in American History Secretariat,Man O war,Citation,Count fleet and Dr. Fager.I understand this list is debateable, but its close. But what is not is the fact that all these Horses raced an average of 56 years ago. 56 years!!Will we ever see one of this caliber again?I dont think so.But of course I hope I'm wrong.Were did the breeding industry go wrong??

thespaah
03-20-2008, 11:57 PM
The 5 best race Horses in American History Secretariat,Man O war,Citation,Count fleet and Dr. Fager.I understand this list is debateable, but its close. But what is not is the fact that all these Horses raced an average of 56 years ago. 56 years!!Will we ever see one of this caliber again?I dont think so.But of course I hope I'm wrong. Were did the breeding industry go wrong??my theories....they bred the stamina out of the breed. look at the pct of sprint races carded by racing secy's. Heck they are running 5 furlong maiden races at class A tracks for older horses..
Racing to breed is another theory. Back in the early 80's big breeding farms were paying astronimical amounts of money for horses with top bloodlines. Not only that, it seemed the very moment a top two or three year old started showing signs of a champion, again big breeders would syndicate the horse for bazillions. This almost ensured these horses would not see a racetrack again after Autumn of their 3yo campaign.
Can you ever see today's trainer allowing a racing sec'y to put 130lbs on a one of their horses today? Or can you think of a top trainer who wouldn't have a *hit fit over a 12 fulong stakes on dirt.

slewis
03-21-2008, 12:18 AM
The 5 best race Horses in American History Secretariat,Man O war,Citation,Count fleet and Dr. Fager.I understand this list is debateable, but its close. But what is not is the fact that all these Horses raced an average of 56 years ago. 56 years!!Will we ever see one of this caliber again?I dont think so.But of course I hope I'm wrong.Were did the breeding industry go wrong??

Hank,

Interesting point. If we're talking about a 1mile race, only Dr. Fager could have beaten Seattle Slew on your list (my opinion). The sport is much much more competitive today and the trainers are LIGHT YEARS better. In NY for example,all,with the exception of Allen Jerkens and Barclay Tagg, of the top trainers are relatively young.
Even Bill Mott just entered his 50's. Pletcher is young, Dutrow is in his 40's. The top guys as little as 10yrs ago are no longer seen (Gasper Moschera). It's no longer hay oats and water, but racing is more competitive in general, even with many more tracks and prize monies.
The breeding industry can't be blamed, the public wants speed, the races are written for betting competitiveness and the horses are bred accordingly, but not always. I've just started breeding 4 yrs ago and I breed ALL my horses to run long. I might also be breeding a bunch of Jumpers in the long run... time will tell.

Norm
03-21-2008, 12:19 AM
The 5 best race Horses in American History Secretariat,Man O war,Citation,Count fleet and Dr. Fager.I understand this list is debateable, but its close. But what is not is the fact that all these Horses raced an average of 56 years ago. 56 years!!Will we ever see one of this caliber again?I dont think so.But of course I hope I'm wrong.Were did the breeding industry go wrong??
I would add Colin, the undefeated one, to your list, not to be argumentive, but to point out a difference in racing then and now. Colin won his maiden race at Saratoga on May 29, 1907. Three days later he won (and set a track record) in the National Stallion Stakes. Four days later he ran in and won the Eclipse Stakes. And so it went throughout his career. They just don't make horses like that anymore. It was the same with the great Sysonby (undefeated in all but one [where he had been drugged in a betting coup] ) and even Man O War put many of his races close together. The great Citation, while winning the Triple Crown, ran in and won the Jersey Derby just to stay in shape between the Preakness and Belmont.

If you ran horses that way today, you would have to haul their carcasses off the track with a back-hoe. Improving the breed ? . . . Bull !

Norm
03-21-2008, 02:04 AM
The old horses, the great ones, had a different look about them when compared to the modern horse. Below is a photo of Sysonby in a conformation pose. He is long and lean. There is not a square inch of him that is not rippling muscle.

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL269/8161730/16877554/309564648.jpg

The great horses always looked like they were standing with their front legs in a hole in the ground. Find a photo of Colin, Man O War or even Exterminator, they all looked the same as this guy. Look at the ribs showing. Look at the extraordinary distance and angle from the point of the croup to the point of the rump (the driving engine). Look at the distance from the point of the withers to the point of the croup when compared to the distance from the withers to the poll. Modern theory tells us that the neck should be as long as the back. This guy's back is 25% longer than his neck. These guys were built for distance and stamina yet they still broke the track records of their time at sprint distances. This is the look of a horse that could not be beaten.

[I shrunk-down this photo to make it fit comfortably here on the forum, but I think you can still see the finer points of Sysonby's conformation.]

voucher
03-21-2008, 09:27 AM
The 5 best race Horses in American History Secretariat,Man O war,Citation,Count fleet and Dr. Fager.I understand this list is debateable, but its close. But what is not is the fact that all these Horses raced an average of 56 years ago. 56 years!!Will we ever see one of this caliber again?I dont think so.But of course I hope I'm wrong.Were did the breeding industry go wrong??
Where did they go wrong?? Simple,WAY TOO MUCH INBREEDING!!!!!!!!!!

Marshall Bennett
03-21-2008, 10:49 AM
In twenty years they'll need life support to make it from the post parade to the starting gate . Like breeding drug addicts to run in the olympics . They're killing the game . :confused:

bane
03-21-2008, 11:48 AM
How about a shot out for the chocholate soldier, Equipoise? That horse could win with 145ilbs on his back!!!! Back when Handicaps were comon and not like today were they are almost instinct.

pedigreeman
03-21-2008, 12:18 PM
Speed Speed and more Speed. Its the american way. Raise a Native raced 3 or 4 times set track records. His fastest son Mr. Prospector raced 6 or 7 times. Now here's the kicker both were sprinters and they sired sprinters. Now look at the leading sires of today every stud farm on the planet has a son or a grandson
Guess who.

Bruddah
03-21-2008, 01:57 PM
Speed Speed and more Speed. Its the american way. Raise a Native raced 3 or 4 times set track records. His fastest son Mr. Prospector raced 6 or 7 times. Now here's the kicker both were sprinters and they sired sprinters. Now look at the leading sires of today every stud farm on the planet has a son or a grandson
Guess who.

Was the sire of Raise A Native- grand sire of Mr Prospector, Sire of the dam (Natalma) of Northern Dancer. That was NATIVE DANCER. He raced 23 times and won 22 of them and ran 2nd once. If you follow this line down to today, you will find more Classic Winners, especially Ky Derby winners than any other bloodline. :ThmbUp:

pedigreeman
03-21-2008, 02:11 PM
The Gray Ghost (Native Dancer) his dam sire discovery made the difference.

In looking over modern-day pedigrees it is hard to overlook the widespread
role played by Discovery--the great handicap horse of the 1930s who later
stood at Alfred Vanderbilt’s Sagamore Farm in Maryland. For years Vanderbilt
maintained the secret of his success was simply to "breed to Discovery". In later
years he amended this to “breed to Discovery mares”. Vanderbilt remarkably
bred the dams of both Native Dancer and Bold Ruler both by Discovery, and Bold
Ruler and Native Dancer became perhaps the two most influential bloodlines in
America.

Kelso
03-21-2008, 03:21 PM
The breeding industry can't be blamed, the public wants speed, the races are written for betting competitiveness and the horses are bred accordingly


This view might be the "common wisdom," but, is there imperical support for it? The public, in general, still pays far more attention to the TC races, all at distance, than to any other all year. (Personally, I enjoy watching horses run; and I get a lot more to watch from routes than sprints.)

As to the wagering market, are there reliable stats to suggest higher average pools for sprints than for routes? I think races are written more to accommodate what's available on the backstretch, not to the betting public's preferences.

skate
03-21-2008, 05:43 PM
More horses running today.

More competence in today runners.

slewis
03-21-2008, 06:40 PM
This view might be the "common wisdom," but, is there imperical support for it? The public, in general, still pays far more attention to the TC races, all at distance, than to any other all year. (Personally, I enjoy watching horses run; and I get a lot more to watch from routes than sprints.)

As to the wagering market, are there reliable stats to suggest higher average pools for sprints than for routes? I think races are written more to accommodate what's available on the backstretch, not to the betting public's preferences.

Dear Kelse,

Where did you see the word "sprint" in my statement?????
When I was growing up, if a horse went 109 and change at Belmont, he was a stakes horse. Today, that strip is much faster. Watch races from back in the late 70's and you'll see everyone off the rail, riding the crown. The track was much slower. Today, they (Track Management at most tracks) want 108 and change, 121 and change, 133 and change for stakes races, and they'll scrape it to death to get it that quick when a big day comes up. Yes. I'm aware (I've been told) that the week Secretariat set the 11/2 mile record, the track was lightning fast ALL week.
But who really cares??? I'd much rather have horses have longer, healthier careers, then run on a surface hard as Daytona (so the times are fast)
So I'll make a STUPID suggestion to the racing industry:
Make your surfaces much deeper and slower. Then, place the timer triggers 70 of 80 feet forward.
The public gets fooled when they see a 35k claimer go in 109.16.... the horse has a healthier 30 instead if 14 race career.
Everyone wins except the breeders and Vets.

Pace Cap'n
03-21-2008, 07:08 PM
If the public wanted speed, they'd all be at the quarter horse races.

Kelso
03-21-2008, 11:20 PM
Where did you see the word "sprint" in my statement?????


Clearly, I didn't. However, I did see your closing comment: "I've just started breeding 4 yrs ago and I breed ALL my horses to run long."

I took that to mean you breed distance runners as opposed to sprinters ... and you seemed to be contrasting your breeding preference with "the public wants speed." Sorry if I misintrerpreted your comments.

Hank
03-22-2008, 12:06 AM
Was the sire of Raise A Native- grand sire of Mr Prospector, Sire of the dam (Natalma) of Northern Dancer. That was NATIVE DANCER. He raced 23 times and won 22 of them and ran 2nd once. If you follow this line down to today, you will find more Classic Winners, especially Ky Derby winners than any other bloodline. :ThmbUp:

Amazingly the Mighty gray raced 56 years ago,right on the average.;)

pedigreeman
03-22-2008, 01:56 AM
THE PRINCIPLES OF BREEDING By Federico Tesio I have been asked to write an article on "Breeding the Thoroughbred Horse" for THE BLOOD-HORSE magazine of Lexington, Kentucky. I start by saying that I don't know any recipe for producing a classical winner, such as my cook has for making a good plum pudding or ice cream.Still, time, tenacity, a spirit of observation and ESPECIALLY GOOD LUCK are the best elements for a good result.I have been an especially lucky sportsman, because during the 57 years in which I have always been interested in Thoroughbreds, including 50 years of breeding, I have given luck time to come my way. In fact, it has helped me to win 22 Italian Derbys. It helped me win the Grand Prix de Paris with Nearco (I was second in the Grand Prix with Donatello II), the Gold Cup of Maisons-Lafitte (Paris) with Apelle, the Grand Prize of Baden Baden with Scopas, the Braunes Band of Munich with Tofanella and Bellini, the Grand Prize of Berlin with Niccolo d'Arezzo, etc.But I must admit that in these 57 years I have carefully studied the race horse under every aspect. This work and experimentation have led me to the following conclusions.Some people think that breeding a great horse is like producing a new quality of peach, plum, or daisy, such as your marvelous Luther Burbank used to do. This is not possible, because when the Shasta Daisy was created, it took fifteen years of continual efforts, and not less than a half million plants had to be grown, with the inevitable expense and tremendous work, to choose the best and destroy the others. Nobody has the fortune, the courage, and the patience to apply such a system to race horses.Anyway, my experience has taught me some means to give a better chance of breeding a great horse--always given that the Goddess of Fortune not be against you.FIRST. One should try at least one cross of near relationship every year, but only on a REALLY CHAMPION Champion common ancestor, such as one finds in Flying Fox's pedigree. This diminishes the number of freaks or surprises, that are very often of no value.Thoroughbreds follow Mendel's Laws. Though naturally selected, they are hybrids, and in transmittance each one of their characteristics acts independently of the others. For instance, we have many cases of own brothers, one a bay, the other a chestnut.The nearly incestuous cross between near relations diminishes the number of possible freaks, reducing the number of ancestors from which the foal inherits.This experiment must be made only on VERY SOUND animals, and of VERY HIGH CLASS.SECOND. Repeat the cross of bloodlines which has already proved capable of producing good winners.This phenomenon has always proved true. The Isonomy-Hermit cross, the Galopin-Hampton cross have always produced winners, often good ones, and sometimes of the highest class. Nowadays we must try the experiment on animals nearer to us, studying the pedigrees of all the best winners of later years.Nobody has yet explained the reason of this phenomenon, but it exists and we must admit it.THIRD. Between two pedigrees I always prefer the one that in the first five generations possesses the most CLASSICAL winners; the nearer they are the better.For broodmares, I would always choose a direct descendant in FEMALE line from a GREAT MARE.(To be Continued)

Hedevar
03-22-2008, 08:06 AM
Absolutely Too Much Inbreeding

pedigreeman
03-31-2008, 10:59 AM
FOURTH. During half a century I have seen almost all the most
celebrated
horses in Europe and I have never found one without some defect. To my
mind
the best of all was St. Simon, but even he had hocks that inclined to
spavin.
The great *Ormonde was a roarer. Hermit sometimes broke a blood vessel.
And
so forth.

This is the reason which makes me look for quality and overlook some
defects.
Defects are often the consequence of too great quality.

Horses that break down are generally the best. The bad ones, those that
can't
go fast, never break down.

The greatest individuals are often very different in type.

I have seen them win with all sorts of expression in their eyes, but
never
one that looked STUPID.

I will tell you a story, to prove my disregard for certain defects, if
other
things satisfy me. An Italian government commission was at the sales in

England, looking around for a high-class stallion for Italy. I
suggested
Polymelus, which was then for sale, but still in training. The horse
did not
please our governement veterinarian, because he had rather flat feet,
and so,
to my despair, the horse remained in England. If I had been in the
vet's
shoes, or in those of the commission, all the history of the Turf would
have
been altered, because Phalaris, Pharos, Manna, Nearco and other
celebrities
would never have been born.

FIFTH. At the sales I always buy the animal which pleases ME most,
without
following the moment's fashion. But at the same time I pour out all my
purse
can hold, if I deem it advisable.

I bought Catnip, Nearco's grandam for 75 guineas, because American
blood was
unfashionable then, and Duccia di Buoninsegna as a yearling for 210
guineas,
because she had rather straight pasterns (but they were strong and well

developed).

On the other hand, I paid 5,000 guineas for Chuette just out of
training, and
she produced Cranach, a very good winner, and then the unbeaten
Cavaliere
d'Arpino, one of the best horses I ever bred, which won, in two months
time,
and ALWAYS IN A CANTER, five races, beating all the best of his time at
the
following distances: five furlongs, one mile, a mile and a quarter, a
mile
and a half, and a mile and seven furlongs.

SIXTH. My opinion is that after the pedigree and public form, the
nourishment
question if of highest importance in attaining success.

Imagine for a moment that following some terrible epidemic the human
race
disappeared. Horses, going back to their natural state, would group in
flocks
and find pastures and climates adapted for summer and winter.

On this principle, and following nature's law, I keep the young ones at

Dormello, on Lake Maggiore, during summer and autumn, and send them to
Olgiata (near Rome), my partner's estate, for winter and summer
[spring?].
This gives them fresh grass and good climate all the year round, as
their
nomadical instincts require.

Bruddah
03-31-2008, 11:32 AM
I, for one, appreciate the information you are trying to impart to this group. Thank you! Great information for those willing to listen and learn. :ThmbUp: :)

ManeMediaMogul
03-31-2008, 07:39 PM
Keep in mind that sheet players and owners have made it unfashionable to run horses back quickly.

The "bounce" and the need for "time after running a top" coupled with the fact that trainers need a high win percentage to attract clients has made running horses frequently a thing of the past.

It is not the horses - they have it better than ever.

Hank
03-31-2008, 08:32 PM
[QUOTE=ManeMediaMogul]Keep in mind that sheet players and owners have made it unfashionable to run horses back quickly.

The "bounce" and the need for "time after running a top" coupled with the fact that trainers need a high win percentage to attract clients has made running horses frequently a thing of the past.

It is not the horses - they have it better than ever.[/QUOT

The facts simply do not support this assertion.

ManeMediaMogul
04-01-2008, 07:36 AM
"The facts simply do not support this assertion."

What facts are those Hank?

Horse's can run back quickly and do...with tremendous results! Pure math will tell you that overall, Thoroughbreds are way less inbred than ever and track surfaces today...even the bad ones are far superior to the dust bowls horses ran on 70 years ago. Veterinary practices are far superior. Horse feeds are scientifically formulated to give the animal the best of everything they need to be happy and healthy.

Curlin has it way better than Man o'War. He only has to run a few times a year to put millions in the bank.

Hank
04-01-2008, 12:48 PM
"The facts simply do not support this assertion."

What facts are those Hank?

Horse's can run back quickly and do...with tremendous results! Pure math will tell you that overall, Thoroughbreds are way less inbred than ever and track surfaces today...even the bad ones are far superior to the dust bowls horses ran on 70 years ago. Veterinary practices are far superior. Horse feeds are scientifically formulated to give the animal the best of everything they need to be happy and healthy.

Curlin has it way better than Man o'War. He only has to run a few times a year to put millions in the bank.

What facts?Well lets see, horses today cannot and do not carry weight like they used to .Horses today cant stay the distances that they did before ,for example the jockey club gold cup was 2 miles then 1.5 now it's 1.25,many many others have been shortened also.Horses make far fewer starts than before.30 years ago the avg was 11 starts a year thats down to like 6.Many many more horses are rushed to the breeding shed that are not sound and wont stay a distance of ground.bread and butter capping angles like running back in 7 days or less are no longer revelant as they are passe'. No less an authority than Dr. Alex Harthill was quoted stating that a less durable speciman is being produced by todays breeding.I could go on but I'm a poor typer.;)

pedigreeman
04-01-2008, 02:12 PM
SEVENTH. But perfect breeding and nutrition are not enough to assure
success.
You must also put your horses in the hands of a good trainer, and
between the
legs of a good jockey! Owner, trainer, jockey, and stud groom consider
the
horse from a different point of view, so it is often difficult to make
them
agree.

To avoid these contrasts I centered all these responsibilities in my
own
hands, except, of course, the jockeyship. I owned an important
steeplechase
stable when I was young, but very rarely let my horses be ridden by
professionals, and did all the riding myself whenever possible.

I am thus qualified by experience to state the following maxims. The
best
trainer is the one who has the most spirit of observation. The best
jockey is
the one who allows his horse to make his great effort, disturbing him
the
least possible.

EIGHTH. In all this work I am helped by an excellent staff, and
especially by
my partners, Marchese and Marchesa Mario Incisa della Rochetta, who
direct
the stud during the months that the yearlings spend in the big paddocks
round
their beautiful home, Olgiata.

At Dormello my wife, Lydia Tesio Flori de Serramezzana, looks after
broodmares and foals with motherly tenderness and a nurse's competence.

NINTH. All the stud's broodmares go back to the most celebrated lines
of the
English Thoroughbred. Delleana goes back to Pretty Polly. Bernina
traces to
Waffles (dam of Manna). Fiorenza is out of Foliation. Tempesta and
Giulia
Roman go back to Sceptre through different lines. Acquaforte goes back
to Wet
Kiss, the dam of Coronach. Santaria won the Irish Oaks herself. And so
on for
all the others.

This is only a brief survey on some breeding problems. I hope soon to
publish
a book on biological researches and discoveries which I have obtained,
working on the race horse for my experience.

END

It appears the foregoing work may have been forwarded to the
Blood-Horse in
Tesio's native Italian and then translated, although no translator is
credited.

While this article certainly doesn't answer all the big questions as to
his
motives or methods, it does give some semblance as to the basic views
Tesio
held in his evaluation of the developing Thoroughbred breed. His
subsequent
work Breeding the Racehorse doesn't appear to have been planned as a
how-to
manual for the Thoroughbred breeder, but rather an examination of the
breed
and its interrelationship with the larger universe. By that I mean
Tesio may
have been explaining the machinations of the universe by examining the
patterns that yielded exceptional Thoroughbreds.

pedigreeman
04-02-2008, 01:48 PM
According to the Bobinski Branch to which they belong. But there

Burls
04-02-2008, 02:52 PM
The 5 best race Horses in American History Secretariat,Man O war,Citation,Count fleet and Dr. Fager. ...[A]ll these Horses raced an average of 56 years ago. 56 years!!Will we ever see one of this caliber again?I dont think so.


Call me crazy, but I have one word in response here: 'Curlin'.

pedigreeman
04-03-2008, 12:19 AM
We now list the Chamnions and/or winners of 500,000 or more

according to the Bobinski Branch to which they belong. But there

are a few other horses listed with them — those horses that lived during the last 100 years who were never declared a Champion, but earned the respect of the horsemen who were a part of their generation and who felt they were lust too good to be left off any list of truly great horses.

Please remember that you are not looking at the Bruce Lowe system of classifying horses, for he did not split the families into any branches; in other words, he did not show us that within every family of broodmares, there were some very bad, even pitiful branches that never produced one really good horse in the last 200 years.

He did show us which families the good horses came from — for example— He showed us that both Bull Lea and Nasrullah came from the Number

9 family, but he did not break the Number 9 family down into branches.

Bobinski did break the families down and because he did, we know now that Bull Lea is from the 9—f branch of the Number 9 family, and Nasrullah is from the 9—c branch of the same family.

We also know that the 9—d branch of the Number 9 family has not yet produced even one good horse in over 200 years!

Bruce Lowe hurt us with his claim that there are certain families that he considered “SIRE’ FAMILIES” producers of great sires; He told us that the sire families were 3, 8, 11, 12 and 14, and those numbers jar against the facts as we see them now.

Mr. Prospector and Seattle Slew are both from the 13—c branch; Nureyev and Sadler’s Wells are from the 5—h branch, and Alydar is from the 9—c branch— Danzig is from the 7—a branch, so none of the TOP Five studs in the world (according to our charts) are from Bruce lowe’s sire families.

However the 8 family he considered to be a sire family is still a sire family, for the 8—c branch is one of the Top Twelve Branches, producing John Henry $6,500,000+ and the great undefeated GOLDEN FLEECE plus the great fillies RUFFIAN and BEWITCH- The 8—b branch produced 0!

And the 8—f branch is another member of the Top Twelve, having produced NIJINSKY II, El Gran Senor, and BLUE LARKSPUR. The 8—e branch produced 0!

The 8—h branch cannot be ignored as they are a member of the Second Team, having produced Damascus, Whirlaway, Goodbye Halo and BUBBLING OVER.

But if you are serious in your search for better horses than you have now you must turn your back on Bruce Lowe and make Bobinski a part of your future in the world of horses. Unless you memorize the Top Twelve Branches of Broodmares he has helped you find, the odds against you will be staggering! I feel it might help you remember the Bobinski numbers of the Twelve Top Branches if you also memorize the Foundation Mare of each Branch. For example — The 1—s branch of La Troienne, the most powerful branch of broodmares in the world!

Remember, the Bruce Lowe system lists only a number; The Bobinski system lists a number — FOLLOWED BY A LETTER + 9c 9—f 13—c

russowen77
04-03-2008, 01:23 AM
Where did they go wrong?? Simple,WAY TOO MUCH INBREEDING!!!!!!!!!!

Do I disagree. There is way too much outcrossing instead of line breeding. Who knows what they will throw in the shed?

It is not the public that wants speed. The game has changed. The average owner now is an investor and he wants to see a return as quickly as possible.
The old owners would not have worried about how fast a young 2 yo could run 2f. Precociousness rules now.

Our problems are way too complicated to have simplistic answers.

FYI, their are only two of the original 4 lines left and one is hanging by a thread. The very esscense of inbreeding.

toetoe
04-03-2008, 12:49 PM
Don't forget the Hungarian hottie, Kincsem. :ThmbUp:

bigmack
04-03-2008, 02:26 PM
Don't forget the Hungarian hottie, Kincsem. :ThmbUp:
Are the woman in Budapest natural hotties? I say yes.

Where is there a Kincsem Park and in that park, a Kinscsem Museum? Budapest - The "Canoga Park" of Europe.

Let's review that record of Kincsem. 54 races run and 54 races won. Not bad.

toetoe
04-03-2008, 05:33 PM
Elliott Spitzer, but our girl kincs 'em.

If it's Thursday, this must be Hungary. Gather yer girl Friday, and meet me on Satiddy fer a sundae, y'hear ?

I'll have you know that K-girl was a big longshot, after winning 20 races or so, in a THREE-HORSE RACE, fa cry sake. Did she ... WIN IT ... ?
Oh, yeah. :ThmbUp:

So long, bigmagyar.

Indulto
04-03-2008, 08:56 PM
Absolutely Too Much InbreedingHedevar,
Last time I saw you, you were softening up Dr. Fager for your stablemate, Damascus, just like Impressive softened me up for Buckpasser. You rabbits are all the same. ;)

Welcome to the board.