Teuflesberg standing in KY

[rufus999]

10,000 grand gets you a first season foal.

My gut feeling is that this horse will be a great sire of miler champs. I remember first seeing him run in an allowance race at SA? when he was still a maiden. His speed was impressive though he ran a bit greenly. I followed his career and cashed in when he wired the field at 24-1 in the Southwest Stakes. He then moved east where I saw him make easy work of an allowance field at Belmont at 8-1. 7f if memory serves. Up to and including a mile the horse was hard to beat. After that, well, he was no Spend A Buck. :cool:

rufus

p.s. I might be off on some of the factual details. If so, feel free to make corrections. My mind is a jumble of many different races past.

[Bobzilla]

It's nice to see he was saved after his breakdown at Keeneland last Fall. Hats off to, I believe Dr. Bramledge. Solid racehorse who probably made it to more of last year's big dances than any other of his 3 year old contemporaries. Absolutely heart warming to see he is well and will soon embark on his second career.

[MickJ26]

10,000 grand gets you a first season foal.

My gut feeling is that this horse will be a great sire of miler champs. I remember first seeing him run in an allowance race at SA? when he was still a maiden. His speed was impressive though he ran a bit greenly. I followed his career and cashed in when he wired the field at 24-1 in the Southwest Stakes. He then moved east where I saw him make easy work of an allowance field at Belmont at 8-1. 7f if memory serves. Up to and including a mile the horse was hard to beat. After that, well, he was no Spend A Buck. :cool:

rufus

p.s. I might be off on some of the factual details. If so, feel free to make corrections. My mind is a jumble of many different races past.


Stud fee seems a bit ambitious for a hard knocker who has never really won any big races. The Southwest and The Woody Stephens I think are only Grade 2's. If they can get it more power to them.

[cnollfan]

It's nice to see he was saved after his breakdown at Keeneland last Fall. Hats off to, I believe Dr. Bramledge. Solid racehorse who probably made it to more of last year's big dances than any other of his 3 year old contemporaries. Absolutely heart warming to see he is well and will soon embark on his second career.

I agree. I was afraid he was a goner.

[JPinMaryland]

Stud fee seems a bit ambitious for a hard knocker who has never really won any big races. The Southwest and The Woody Stephens I think are only Grade 2's. If they can get it more power to them.

Apparently his pedigree is highly impressive or so that is my understanding.

[russowen77]

It is a good one. He is inbred 3x4 by Mr P and of course comes from the Storm Cat male line.

[njcurveball]

Apparently his pedigree is highly impressive or so that is my understanding.


It is curious how he was purchased for $9,000 with such a highly impressive pedigree? Also curious that his stud fee will be more than what they purchased him for.

He broke his maiden against a million dollar yearling, so I know his heart is very big. Hopefully that translates to his offsping. :ThmbUp:

[russowen77]

He he sold for nine he has conformation issues. His pedigree is good but not great .

In todays crazed market stud fees are often inflated early. They will do some incentives programs to get him enough mares to see how he throws.

It -10k- does seem a little high for his record.

[njcurveball]

He he sold for nine he has conformation issues.

So you have a horse with conformation issues who raced sound for a while and then was retired due to injury going off to stud.

What are the odds his yearlings turn out the same? Sounds like $10,000 is a pretty expensive gamble.

[russowen77]

Welcome to my world. Name recognition seems to be a major driving factor right now. I could never imagine breeding that colt until he was proven.

We do have a lot of horses being bred now that are primarily for the sales. different pricipals apply than for those who are trying to breed horses to race themselves.

One thing to keep in mind though is that to many of these people 10k is not that expensive. Especially to non Americans right now.

Hoplefully the work of the Grayson Jockey club will start to bear fruit.

[zoobird]

This is exactly the type of discussion that led to my creating the new fantasy horse racing game I linked to in the thread below this one. Actually it was a discussion about Bellamy Road (also standing for $10K...and a much more enticing deal IMO) that gave me the initial idea.

[njcurveball]

One thing to keep in mind though is that to many of these people 10k is not that expensive. Especially to non Americans right now.



Rich women can spend $10,000 for a purse these days from what I hear, so I get the fact that to some it is not expensive.

The sire was Johannesburg, correct? If memory serves me right, he was a great 2 year old who didn't win a race at 3.

For my money, I would try to breed to a "sound" stallion who had very few health problems and his Sire showed longevity.

Breeding to an injured horse, whose sire was a shooting star as a baby, just says to me that the offspring may catch fire at 2 and be retired before they turn 4.

Perhaps with a mare who has some turf blood and classic distance in her, the equation may turn out better?

[russowen77]

Joahnnesberg did his running at two just like his sire-Hennesy.

It is nuts to me but folks want instant gratification a lot in today's world.

[njcurveball]

Joahnnesberg did his running at two just like his sire-Hennesy.



Wasn't he retired due an injury as well? So basically they are buying a horse that may not even make it to the races given the genetics?

[russowen77]

What you are putting together is the reason Grayson Jockey club and others are really trying to identify horses that will give you a much better shot at soundness. It is still ongoing and unfortuanately there is much work to be done.

[JustRalph]

I will take four of these instead

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=4518693

[Shenanigans]

It is curious how he was purchased for $9,000 with such a highly impressive pedigree? Also curious that his stud fee will be more than what they purchased him for.

He broke his maiden against a million dollar yearling, so I know his heart is very big. Hopefully that translates to his offsping. :ThmbUp:

He was sold for nine because he had chips and he was selling toward the end of the session for the day.

[Shenanigans]

Welcome to my world. Name recognition seems to be a major driving factor right now. I could never imagine breeding that colt until he was proven.

We do have a lot of horses being bred now that are primarily for the sales. different pricipals apply than for those who are trying to breed horses to race themselves.

One thing to keep in mind though is that to many of these people 10k is not that expensive. Especially to non Americans right now.

Hoplefully the work of the Grayson Jockey club will start to bear fruit.

Storm Cat and Mr. Prospector weren't exactly "proven". Other than Mr. P turning out some great times, neither horse won any major races. They both retired with injuries.

[GlenninOhio]

For what it's worth, this horse was trained by Jamie "3%" Sanders. That's right - 9 wins from 271 starts in 2007.

He ran 21 times from April 2006 - October 2007 at ages 2 and 3. The word "rented mule" comes to mind, especially for a horse that had conformation issues and may have been prone to soundness problems.

[Shenanigans]

Wasn't he retired due an injury as well? So basically they are buying a horse that may not even make it to the races given the genetics?


How many horses are retired without injury? Very few. Only a handful make it to retirement without injury and only because there was a lucrative stud deal made early in their 3 year old year.;)

[Shenanigans]

For what it's worth, this horse was trained by Jamie "3%" Sanders. That's right - 9 wins from 271 starts in 2007.

He ran 21 times from April 2006 - October 2007 at ages 2 and 3. The word "rented mule" comes to mind, especially for a horse that had conformation issues and may have been prone to soundness problems.


I seem to recall her calling him her "Iron Horse".:rolleyes: It's a dirty shame that this horse wasn't in better hands.

[Robert Fischer]

go turf heavy with him.

the right mare could get you a turf sprinter/miler who could also run over some synthetic

[russowen77]

Storm Cat and Mr. Prospector weren't exactly "proven". Other than Mr. P turning out some great times, neither horse won any major races. They both retired with injuries.--

I am talking as stud's not racehorses. There is a huge n on them.

[njcurveball]

How many horses are retired without injury? .

Retired DUE TO INJURY.

Many horses race for a long time my friend, there are 12 and 13 year old geldings still running at some tracks. Soundness and longevity are desirable aspects in a stud. :ThmbUp:

[njcurveball]

He ran 21 times from April 2006 - October 2007 at ages 2 and 3. The word "rented mule" comes to mind, especially for a horse that had conformation issues and may have been prone to soundness problems.

The horse was competing in graded stakes and getting nice checks while still a maiden. Do you know where I can get a "rented mule" like this?

[russowen77]

I am trying to post a stallion durability study. I am not sure I did this right but here goes.

[rufus999]

Teuflesberg pedigree

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/728/teuflesbergjz1.th.jpg (http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teuflesbergjz1.jpg)

[Shenanigans]

Retired DUE TO INJURY.

Many horses race for a long time my friend, there are 12 and 13 year old geldings still running at some tracks. Soundness and longevity are desirable aspects in a stud. :ThmbUp:

Most of those 12 and 13 year old geldings are not stakes winners. If you think that those 12 and 13 year olds never had time off from the races due to injury, you're sadly mistaken. Most of them have and since they are geldings they have no other choice but to bring them back to the races or give them away as riding horses. There's a big difference.
Of course soundness and longevity are desirable in a stud, but producing that big stakes winner is even more desirable in todays market. Do you realize how much money is spent on keeping a 12 or 13 year old in training only for them to occasionally jump up and win a nice allowance? Most people want a fast and large return on their investment. Those geldings you speak of are short term investments. They get claimed, run back to try to make some money then dropped in class to be disposed of because they are not making any money for the owner.

[Shenanigans]

--

I am talking as stud's not racehorses. There is a huge n on them.

Proven stud??? Well the folks that took the chance on Mr. P and Storm Cat weren't getting a "proven anything" - on the track or in the shed.
What it boils down to, in case you haven't notice, is bloodlines. If the bloodlines have shown to be proven then people are more likely to take a shot at something that hasn't proved itself on the track.

[GlenninOhio]

The horse was competing in graded stakes and getting nice checks while still a maiden. Do you know where I can get a "rented mule" like this?

Yes.

And exactly why did they skip around his maiden conditions?

Street Sense - Won MSW at CD on second try.

Hard Spun - Won MSW at DEL on first try.

Any Given Saturday - Won MSW at TP on first try.

Curlin - Won MSW at GP on first try.

Teuflesberg - Won MSW at KEE in 8th start. Prior to that, ran in 2 MSW's, 2G3's, 2G2's and a G1.

Greed? Foolishness? Or a smart plan for a campaign for a young horse with talent?

Perhaps some clues here on why this gal had a 3% win percentage?

(Your rented mule was vanned off after the 6th race at KEE on October 6, 2007.)

[njcurveball]

Perhaps some clues here on why this gal had a 3% win percentage?



I am missing your point here, but I usually do in these threads. Here we have a trainer who took a $9,000 yearling and won over half a million.

If you think the horse was bred royally and she just got lucky than perhaps $10,000 is a bargain for a stud fee.

I will pay you $9,000 cash if you can find me a "rented mule" as good as this horse.

My problem is not with the horse, but with the expensive stud fee.

[njcurveball]

Do you realize how much money is spent on keeping a 12 or 13 year old in training only for them to occasionally jump up and win a nice allowance?

I cannot recall a 12 or 13 year old winning an allowance. Can you name a few?

[russowen77]

I cannot recall a 12 or 13 year old winning an allowance. Can you name a few?
One fact is that confirmation want tell you if the horses can or will run. :)

It can give you some indication of soundness among other things. But it is sure not the holy grail as far as racing goes.

[slewis]

$10K stud fee is chicken feed in todays market.

But there is also another angle EVERYONE is missing. Just because you have a mare you want to make a broodmare and you call the, lets say GRAND SLAM managers looking to breed to him and let's say he's $35,000.
So, you have your mare, you have the 35K in 11 month's (live foal) but you may have nothing because if your Mare's pedigree isn't up to what they consider worthy, they won't let you breed to him, $35k or not.

There is a whole other market for lower priced sires and many are interesting because they are 1st year sires. Some will produce stake winners and some will fail. Mother nature has the final say.
Today, you have many more tracks offering high purses and competing with each other for a good racing and betting product. The shortage has forced racing juristictions to allow more and more medications, (i.e. clenbuterol was not allowed in NY until several years ago) and this weakens the breed.
We have a serious Thoroughbred shortage in this country and many have NO idea how difficult it is to get a foal to the races. It's a long process. Many, many will never make it to the starting gate. I dont know the exact percentage but I look up pedigrees and I'm amazed how many I see as "unraced". Horses that sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I'd say it may be higher than 75% dont make it.
I know it will never happen but if the powers that be in this country want to improve the sport they should introduce very limited artificial insemination on a controlled 5yr experimental basis. Instead of having 60 foals of A. P. Indy you could say, increase that number to 90 and give the racing world a better product, and the bettors more competitive racing.
Politics..politics...it will never happen.

[russowen77]

$10K stud fee is chicken feed in todays market.

But there is also another angle EVERYONE is missing. Just because you have a mare you want to make a broodmare and you call the, lets say GRAND SLAM managers looking to breed to him and let's say he's $35,000.
So, you have your mare, you have the 35K in 11 month's (live foal) but you may have nothing because if your Mare's pedigree isn't up to what they consider worthy, they won't let you breed to him, $35k or not.

There is a whole other market for lower priced sires and many are interesting because they are 1st year sires. Some will produce stake winners and some will fail. Mother nature has the final say.
Today, you have many more tracks offering high purses and competing with each other for a good racing and betting product. The shortage has forced racing juristictions to allow more and more medications, (i.e. clenbuterol was not allowed in NY until several years ago) and this weakens the breed.
We have a serious Thoroughbred shortage in this country and many have NO idea how difficult it is to get a foal to the races. It's a long process. Many, many will never make it to the starting gate. I dont know the exact percentage but I look up pedigrees and I'm amazed how many I see as "unraced". Horses that sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I'd say it may be higher than 75% dont make it.
I know it will never happen but if the powers that be in this country want to improve the sport they should introduce very limited artificial insemination on a controlled 5yr experimental basis. Instead of having 60 foals of A. P. Indy you could say, increase that number to 90 and give the racing world a better product, and the bettors more competitive racing.
Politics..politics...it will never happen.
I agree that you should never over breed your mares. We try hard to stay fairly close in the indexs of known producers.

10k is not chicken feed in this market. Actually, all markets but KY in the states. It is pretty cheap for KY.

I will never recommend any stallion that does not have at least 70% of his foals at least start a race. I prefer closer to 80.

read the stallion study that I put up. About every thouroughbred foal born is tracked. No need to guess. The data is public.

[slewis]

I agree that you should never over breed your mares. We try hard to stay fairly close in the indexs of known producers.

10k is not chicken feed in this market. Actually, all markets but KY in the states. It is pretty cheap for KY.

I will never recommend any stallion that does not have at least 70% of his foals at least start a race. I prefer closer to 80.

read the stallion study that I put up. About every thouroughbred foal born is tracked. No need to guess. The data is public.


Russ,

Thanks for the feedback... ok I'll retract my 10k chicken feed remark and explain it this way. If you want to race on the major racing circuits, and we race in NY, (some fla in winter) 10k is chicken feed.
If you disagree now, try breaking your maiden at the SPA against the well bred 2yr olds with your below avg mare bred to a $4k stallion.
Not impossible but good luck.
Sure to race at Penn Nat or Laurel... you're absolutely correct.

[Shenanigans]

I cannot recall a 12 or 13 year old winning an allowance. Can you name a few?

You're the one that used the 12 and 13 year old longevity theory. Realistically you should have used 8 and 9 year olds as examples.:rolleyes:

[Shenanigans]

I am missing your point here, but I usually do in these threads. Here we have a trainer who took a $9,000 yearling and won over half a million.

If you think the horse was bred royally and she just got lucky than perhaps $10,000 is a bargain for a stud fee.

I will pay you $9,000 cash if you can find me a "rented mule" as good as this horse.

My problem is not with the horse, but with the expensive stud fee.

The point is that here we have a trainer who took a $9000 yearling and won over half a million with it and he was the only winner in her barn so to speak. 3% is extremely low. What it's saying is the horse ran and won despite it's poor training and managing. In other hands, he'd probably would have won better races and still be racing. The horse outran it's trainers training and a $10,000 stud fee is reasonable for a horse that overcame it's poor training IMO.;)

[JPinMaryland]

Further to the above comment, here is one of the most interesting commetns from the Pedigree Inquiry site re: Teuf's stud fee:

"He sold at auction as a yearling for a sum lower than his first year fee. That alone will make him a breed-to-race stallion until he proves he's capable of siring the big horse, and while I do really like him and hope he gets a great book, I fear that $10K is just too high for an unproven breed-to-race stallion."

similar to what Shenanigans is saying..

[njcurveball]

. The horse outran it's trainers training and a $10,000 stud fee is reasonable for a horse that overcame it's poor training IMO.;)



I fear that $10K is just too high for an unproven breed-to-race stallion."


similar to what Shenanigans is saying..

Hmmm, are you his political advisor, because what he said and what you said certainly seem like different things to me. :bang:

[njcurveball]

You're the one that used the 12 and 13 year old longevity theory. Realistically you should have used 8 and 9 year olds as examples.:rolleyes:

New reading glasses may be helpful, I said they were still running. Which was in response to your not understanding a horse who is retired and can still race, compared to one that was retired due to an injury.

Read careeeefulllllly now.



Many horses race for a long time my friend, there are 12 and 13 year old geldings still running at some tracks. Soundness and longevity are desirable aspects in a stud. :ThmbUp:

[Shenanigans]

Further to the above comment, here is one of the most interesting commetns from the Pedigree Inquiry site re: Teuf's stud fee:

"He sold at auction as a yearling for a sum lower than his first year fee. That alone will make him a breed-to-race stallion until he proves he's capable of siring the big horse, and while I do really like him and hope he gets a great book, I fear that $10K is just too high for an unproven breed-to-race stallion."

similar to what Shenanigans is saying..

No, not similar to what Shenanigans is saying....:D

[Shenanigans]

New reading glasses may be helpful, I said they were still running. Which was in response to your not understanding a horse who is retired and can still race, compared to one that was retired due to an injury.

Read careeeefulllllly now.

Glasses for me? Reread my posts. You are basically saying these 12 and 13 year olds have longevity in their genes and never are injured during their career. I pointed out that these horses do have had time off somewhere in their career due to injury and because they are geldings they come back to the track.
Not understanding a horse who is retired and can still race, compared to one that was retired due to an injury??? Who isn't understanding that??? I stated that MOST horses are retired due to injury. There are only a handful of horses that are retired sound and that is only because a lucrative stud deal was made. In todays market, yes there is more of that, but I can recall a few horses with great stud deals that still didn't finish out their racing career uninjured.
Are you sure you want to continue with this debate, because you are backpeddling and spinning. I have been involved in this industry for 20+ years. I would think I would know somewhat of what I am talking about.:rolleyes:
Read caaareeefffullly now.

[njcurveball]

You are basically saying these 12 and 13 year olds have longevity in their genes and never are injured during their career.


Ummm, how bout NO? :lol:

All I said was quoted above and you missed it a second time. But hey, you have 20+ years in the industry, so you must be right. :bang:

Getting the thread BACK ON TOPIC, I feel the $10,000 for this horse is a BAD BET, you feel it is justified. That is what makes racing. :ThmbUp:

[russowen77]

Russ,

Thanks for the feedback... ok I'll retract my 10k chicken feed remark and explain it this way. If you want to race on the major racing circuits, and we race in NY, (some fla in winter) 10k is chicken feed.
If you disagree now, try breaking your maiden at the SPA against the well bred 2yr olds with your below avg mare bred to a $4k stallion.
Not impossible but good luck.
Sure to race at Penn Nat or Laurel... you're absolutely correct.
I wish I had those clients if I don't. However, we did have some AR do really well at Kee and the AS tracks last year did very well against some very high priced animals. Our people try to spot them where they can.

One thing I can tell you for sure. Much of our stock will still be running years after many of the super fast SA horses will be broken down. That is a fact also. One might not win big races but one can make a decent living with horses that show up race after race and fire.

One does what one can.

[Shenanigans]

Retired DUE TO INJURY.

Many horses race for a long time my friend, there are 12 and 13 year old geldings still running at some tracks. Soundness and longevity are desirable aspects in a stud. :ThmbUp:

The fact that you were pointing out the 12 and 13 year old has nothing to do with the longevity thingy??? Right.:rolleyes: :lol:

[GlenninOhio]

[QUOTE=njcurveball]I am missing your point here, but I usually do in these threads. QUOTE]

I agree. You usually do miss the point.

[njcurveball]

I agree. You usually do miss the point.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I will now wait until a trainer takes a $9,000 yearling and makes a half million before saying they do not know what they are doing. :ThmbUp:

I guess a guy like Scott Lake who claims a horse for $10,000 and then wins for $5,000 to pad his win percentage must be a genius! :bang:

[GlenninOhio]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I will now wait until a trainer takes a $9,000 yearling and makes a half million before saying they do not know what they are doing. :ThmbUp:

I guess a guy like Scott Lake who claims a horse for $10,000 and then wins for $5,000 to pad his win percentage must be a genius! :bang:


Yes, I would imagine there are owners lining up to have Jamie Sanders train their stakes quality horses, what with:

1. Her 3% win percentage

2. Her impeccable "strategy" of skipping MSW conditions with Teuflesberg from his 2nd start until his 8th start

3. Running Teuflesberg 21 times in 18 months as a 2 year old and as a 3 year old, culminating in a career-ending breakdown

The point (which I realize you will never understand) is that in anything resembling capabable hands, this horse would have fared a lot better, plus he might still be sound.

What she paid for the horse (she was partners with a bunch of people) has nothing to do with how he was managed. Perhaps she deserves credit for identifying a very good runner at the sale - one that others clearly missed. But all this says is she would make a good bloodstock agent.

[njcurveball]

The point (which I realize you will never understand) is that in anything resembling capabable hands, this horse would have fared a lot better, plus he might still be sound.

.

For what it's worth, this horse was trained by Jamie "3%" Sanders. That's right - 9 wins from 271 starts in 2007.

He ran 21 times from April 2006 - October 2007 at ages 2 and 3. The word "rented mule" comes to mind, especially for a horse that had conformation issues and may have been prone to soundness problems.

OK, so in one post, you call the horse a "rented mule" with conformation issues.

Then in another you knock the "incompetant" trainer who won over half a million and got 21 starts from a horse you said had soundness problems! nice Seems like a pretty nice job with the "rented mule". :ThmbUp:

[GlenninOhio]

OK, so in one post, you call the horse a "rented mule" with conformation issues.

Then in another you knock the "incompetant" trainer who won over half a million and got 21 starts from a horse you said had soundness problems! nice Seems like a pretty nice job with the "rented mule". :ThmbUp:

Wow. You really are a piece of work.

When I said "rented mule", I was referring to how the horse was managed, not to the horse itself.

The fact that the horse may have had conformation issues is only more reason not to run him 21 times in 18 months.

Now go off and slice and dice this perfectly straightforward response into something incoherent. I do give you credit for being very good at that.

[Shenanigans]

Wow. You really are a piece of work.

When I said "rented mule", I was referring to how the horse was managed, not to the horse itself.

The fact that the horse may have had conformation issues is only more reason not to run him 21 times in 18 months.

Now go off and slice and dice this perfectly straightforward response into something incoherent. I do give you credit for being very good at that.

Isn't he though?

[njcurveball]

Now go off and slice and dice this perfectly straightforward response into something incoherent. I do give you credit for being very good at that.


Thanks! You did a great job here as well! :ThmbUp:

[QUOTE=njcurveball]I am missing your point here, but I usually do in these threads. QUOTE]

I agree. You usually do miss the point.