Making horse racing more popular

[ny0707ny]

How come it seems nobody ever tries to make horse racing a more mainstream sport?

One of the main problems I think in getting a big following is that people don't want to pay for the PP's for the races. It cost a fortune if you were to buy them for each race every day. So you really don't know anything about the race except who is running in it.

Why don't everyone that makes the PP's offer them really cheap to people? Have a deal cut with the racetracks so that they pay for some of the cost of them. Digital form is probably cheaper then print. So at least the online PP.

End result? You get more people going to all racetracks. The tracks make more money. The sites selling the PP will make more money. Probably more books and other horse racing data will be sold in much higher amounts. The viewers at home watching the races will also climb through the roof.

Has anyone ever thought about this? Or am I the only one?

[BillW]

How come it seems nobody ever tries to make horse racing a more mainstream sport?

One of the main problems I think in getting a big following is that people don't want to pay for the PP's for the races. It cost a fortune if you were to buy them for each race every day. So you really don't know anything about the race except who is running in it.

Why don't everyone that makes the PP's offer them really cheap to people? Have a deal cut with the racetracks so that they pay for some of the cost of them. Digital form is probably cheaper then print. So at least the online PP.

End result? You get more people going to all racetracks. The tracks make more money. The sites selling the PP will make more money. Probably more books and other horse racing data will be sold in much higher amounts. The viewers at home watching the races will also climb through the roof.

Has anyone ever thought about this? Or am I the only one?

TSN has comma delimited data and results along with .pdf PP's and their version of a tip sheet for every track running for $2 a day.

[SMOO]

How come it seems nobody ever tries to make horse racing a more mainstream sport?

One of the main problems I think in getting a big following is that people don't want to pay for the PP's for the races. It cost a fortune if you were to buy them for each race every day. So you really don't know anything about the race except who is running in it.

Why don't everyone that makes the PP's offer them really cheap to people? Have a deal cut with the racetracks so that they pay for some of the cost of them. Digital form is probably cheaper then print. So at least the online PP.

End result? You get more people going to all racetracks. The tracks make more money. The sites selling the PP will make more money. Probably more books and other horse racing data will be sold in much higher amounts. The viewers at home watching the races will also climb through the roof.

Has anyone ever thought about this? Or am I the only one?
you make a lot of good points, I think the lack of a central "commish" hurts as every track does what they wants instead what's best for the game, as in team sports. Plus it is an old fashioned sport that has to be dragged into the 21st century when it come to tech things like quicker tote updates.

BTW, back in my dad's day, horse racing was one of the "big 3" that included boxing & baseball.

[Foolish Pleasure]

One thing the sport does not need is federal oversight.
Just asking for a disaster.

sport desperately needs to go back to trying to attract, doctors, lawyers, brokers other people with high disposable incomes that think they know something,

and away fr the family of five with one bettor and the lotto crowds.

[ny0707ny]

Thanks guys for your answers.

Other major sports like baseball and football, all the information is free online for past results and teams.

Maybe someday someone will try something different. If im still alive by then :D

[FlyinLate]

I think it's popularity stems alot deeper than $2.50 PP's and $3.50 simulcasts.

Being on the younger side I can say that horse racing does nothing to attract a younger crowd to the track. These younger people will soon be their future. If it wasn't for my dad, I would never go to the track, let alone follow it the way I do.

[alysheba88]

You can get pp's for less then $1 a track, even with the hard print Form.

Bottom line is there is a significant part of the every day horse players who are cheap. And lazy.

Not talking about the type that would be on this forum.

They think nothing of betting hundreds during a day but the thought of buying pp's or even a program are too much for them.

They have "gambling money" but never have money for anything else

[SMOO]

Thanks guys for your answers.

Other major sports like baseball and football, all the information is free online for past results and teams.

Maybe someday someone will try something different. If im still alive by then :D

True, but good luck with that, it seems like we "owe" someone for stats similar to ad-supported free stat sites for sports. This is one reason most young people bet illegally on sports rather than go and bet at the track or OTB.

[ny0707ny]

But in contrast to the other major sports, you don't have to buy any paper before you bet on it or just follow for fun.

You can find out all the information on football games, what every player did during the game and all the stats on players and teams for free.

Just my opinion but I think it is just one of several other problems which we can talk about forever.

Thanks for writing back.

[russowen77]

Here is some of the problem as I see it. This really from OP and it could be different elsewhere but no other place that I have seen.

I think gambling is gambling so we must look at tracks from a casino goers eyes.

1. You pay to get in. Here, you can write your rep and get a season pass but that helps few. Also as soon as the live meet is over that goes away. Slot players free- horse players pay. That causes some ill feelings

2. Parking- not only do you have to pay for parking but then they have only one shuttle to pick you up. Compare that to casinos.

3. Do the visuals between the average track and the average casino. Where would your wife or girlfriend rather be.

4. No proverbial buffet here. :)

5. the track owners have not, imo, decided exactly who they are competing with. Ol Charlie worked for years to get his beloved slots. He didn't even try for a sports book that in the south would keep people here continually.

6. There is no consensus between the horseman and the players. The two groups getting hammered in my opinion. Someone has divide and conguer going very well right now.

BTW, anyone thinks the tracks only get money from the players is very wrong. Even less of it comes from players no a days. Instead of worrying over which group is getting the better deal it would be much better if all the groups combined to get a little more from the owners and the commisions., or whatere group it is that sets the takeouts and fees (horsemen have tons also).

I also think there needs to be a licensing board for racetrack bets. Right now they are only really responsible to the ones who pay them.

[Cangamble]

TSN has comma delimited data and results along with .pdf PP's and their version of a tip sheet for every track running for $2 a day.
You can get unlimited deals at TSN for next to nothing on a daily basis.
I usually just use their Premium Past Performances (50 cents a card) when I'm betting on 3 or more tracks in a day. I usually use my own variants for speed figures, but I find their speed figs more reliable than Beyers.

[Cangamble]

Here is some of the problem as I see it. This really from OP and it could be different elsewhere but no other place that I have seen.

I think gambling is gambling so we must look at tracks from a casino goers eyes.

1. You pay to get in. Here, you can write your rep and get a season pass but that helps few. Also as soon as the live meet is over that goes away. Slot players free- horse players pay. That causes some ill feelings

2. Parking- not only do you have to pay for parking but then they have only one shuttle to pick you up. Compare that to casinos.

3. Do the visuals between the average track and the average casino. Where would your wife or girlfriend rather be.

4. No proverbial buffet here. :)

5. the track owners have not, imo, decided exactly who they are competing with. Ol Charlie worked for years to get his beloved slots. He didn't even try for a sports book that in the south would keep people here continually.

6. There is no consensus between the horseman and the players. The two groups getting hammered in my opinion. Someone has divide and conguer going very well right now.

BTW, anyone thinks the tracks only get money from the players is very wrong. Even less of it comes from players no a days. Instead of worrying over which group is getting the better deal it would be much better if all the groups combined to get a little more from the owners and the commisions., or whatere group it is that sets the takeouts and fees (horsemen have tons also).

I also think there needs to be a licensing board for racetrack bets. Right now they are only really responsible to the ones who pay them.
Woodbine and Fort Erie and I think all Ontario harness tracks have free admission and parking (unless you go for Valet). It doesn't mean anything, just gives the player another race to play. More churn money. The more the player has, the more he or she will churn potentially.

The biggest problem is that the takeouts are way too high. I know I sound like a broken record, but no winners create no buzz.

When you go to play poker online or blackjack at a casino you go in thinking you have a reasonable chance of winning. Someone who leaves Vegas a winner, creates potential players down the road. Someone who wins at online poker, creates new potential players down the road.
Horse racing used to be like that, but that was before Beyer figures leveled the playing field, drugs caused more erratic form, simulcasting turned betting on horses closer to betting on slots by taunting players with 60 bets a day versus 9, and the big one: Slots took away most of the dumb money out of the pools.

[MickJ26]

Here is some of the problem as I see it. This really from OP and it could be different elsewhere but no other place that I have seen.

I think gambling is gambling so we must look at tracks from a casino goers eyes.

1. You pay to get in. Here, you can write your rep and get a season pass but that helps few. Also as soon as the live meet is over that goes away. Slot players free- horse players pay. That causes some ill feelings

2. Parking- not only do you have to pay for parking but then they have only one shuttle to pick you up. Compare that to casinos.

3. Do the visuals between the average track and the average casino. Where would your wife or girlfriend rather be.

4. No proverbial buffet here. :)

5. the track owners have not, imo, decided exactly who they are competing with. Ol Charlie worked for years to get his beloved slots. He didn't even try for a sports book that in the south would keep people here continually.

6. There is no consensus between the horseman and the players. The two groups getting hammered in my opinion. Someone has divide and conguer going very well right now.

BTW, anyone thinks the tracks only get money from the players is very wrong. Even less of it comes from players no a days. Instead of worrying over which group is getting the better deal it would be much better if all the groups combined to get a little more from the owners and the commisions., or whatere group it is that sets the takeouts and fees (horsemen have tons also).

I also think there needs to be a licensing board for racetrack bets. Right now they are only really responsible to the ones who pay them.




I agree 100%. The casinos kiss your ass six ways to Sundays and the racetracks treat you like garbage. If you ask a question of a casino worker you generally get a cordial, informative response. If you ask a question of a racetrack worker you generally get a rude, sarcastic response.
In addition, most casinos are modern and immaculate. Most racetracks are run down and dirty.
Unfortunately, most people don't see the drama of a great horse race or the thrill in handicapping a winner. Most people see it as straight up gambling and they'd rather go two and a half hours by car to Atlantic City or five hours by plane to Las Vegas.
Try and make patrons feel wanted and liked and you'll have a meaningful sport again. It all starts from there.

[ny0707ny]

I noticed that when I was younger. I think "the sport of kings" means the horse is treated like the king. Not the customer. :p

I never have been in a casino but I think they are treated very nice from what I seen on TV and hear.

I was at racetracks when I was younger and you are right about what you say. I am not sure why it is like that. I never been able to figure that out.

Maybe it is the stereotype of the people who go to racetracks that cause people to be treated bad.

This is an entire other thread :D Thanks guys for your comments though. Im out.

[King Ritchie]

Pure and simple, the problem is TAXATION. Why should the state and feds get a percentage of every dollar wagered?

[Cangamble]

Pure and simple, the problem is TAXATION. Why should the state and feds get a percentage of every dollar wagered?
The 30% withholding is mind boggling stupidity. That takes out lots of potential churn money from gambler's pockets.

[ralph_the_cat]

Pure and simple, the problem is TAXATION. Why should the state and feds get a percentage of every dollar wagered?

This is why people arent wagering?

[Cangamble]

This is why people arent wagering?
In Canada, we expect to get taxed for just about everything. How else do you think we get "free" healthcare.

[firstofftheclaim]

Lowering takeout will not make horseracing more popular, by more popular I think you mean mainstream. Who cares if the take on a tri is 30%. You still have to win the fucking thing first. Lowering the takeout will not bring novices in to the track. Novices don't know what a takeout is. They don't give a shit what the takeout is. Most people have a negative view towards horseracing because they feel it is cruelty to the animal, degenerate gambling etc... Nothing will change that, because, let's be honest. It kinda is for degenerates, and animals are treated pretty shitty.

[russowen77]

It is funny. Few people I know know what the takeout is on any casino game they play and can't even find out when it comes to slots. They can only find out the max it can be. As far as I can tell it is impossible to tell on slots.

Casinos take the fed money out as well on big winnings. Just like the track.

I understand that lowering takeout would attract the larger, and usually better informed bettor to the track, what I would like to see is a little outside the box thinking so we could get the less informed money back.

Peersonally, I would like to see areas where boxes had tables, video gaming displays were in the box so other games could be done while one waited for races, and the track support local resturants where decent food could be ordered and delivered to the customers without racing.

Employess with hand held devices that could take bets like other hawk food at ballparks would also be a nice thing imo. I think that if you had sports bar areas where the patrons could watch other games while being able to easily bet would be great even if one could not bet on the other games. Excited or sad fans bet more imo.

I just don't think any knee jerk response is going to get the average fan back and for those of us who have some clue it would just get better and better. It is going to take a little more strategic thinking.

Lower the takeouts too far and see what type of stock you have to bet on on all but a few major tracks. It would help the players for sure. I don't want to see player races out there, a bunch of old men trying 6 f could get real ugly.

In case no one has noticed the costs of feed, fuel, etc are sking while the purses are not going up in venues without slots. Y'all say the players pay all the bills and that is a flat lie in many venues. The horseman are charged for all kinds of things also and they have employees. How many does the average horseman have.

My take is find out how to get the sucker money back and we will all be fine. Well maybe. The next to last breeders cup if one bought beer in one area he couldn't take it to other ones where different beer is being hawked.I have never seen anything like it before or after.

[Jeff P]

If I owned a racetrack... I'd implement a master plan to grow the hell out of my business at the expense of my competitors by... I know it's unheard of... understanding my customers and giving my customers what they want.

Here's a short list:

1. The facility would be clean... the employees customer friendly... Casinos make a very good mimc-able role model for making a gambling establishment as inviiting as possible. We're not talking about rocket science here. A clean and friendly place should be a given not the exception.

2. I'd lobby the hell out of my elected representatives to allow me to drop my takeout to 10-12 pct. And I'd publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Bettors would know they have a fighting chance. And while I might have a dress code in my clubhouse, my customers would never pay for admission or parking.

3. I'd do everything in the world (even cutting back race dates) to make sure that when my racing secretary writes conditions for a race: it fills. My priorities would be CUSTOMER based not status quo based. I know my customers want competitive races and large fields. THAT's what I'd strive for. Not the opposite. And I know it's a stretch but RACING (not slots) would be the focus of my business. You'd see a beautiful saddling area/paddock. And a facility where everything is geared towards customers watching and betting on my races.

4. I'd do everything in the world to distribute my signal as widely as possible. My live track video and replays and charts would be available right from my track's website. EVERY ADW on the planet would get a chance to carry my signal. Even if, hell, especially if they offered rebates to their players. NONE of them would get exclusive rights to my signal. If there were laws standing in the way of any of this, again, I'd lobby the hell out of my elected state representatives to get those laws changed and publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Again, my philosophy would be give the CUSTOMER what they want - not the opposite of what they want.

5. I'd create a player rewards program with teeth in it. Players who came out to my facility to bet would enjoy a substantial reduced takeout vs those that stayed home. If there were laws standing in the way of that, again, I'd lobby the hell out of my elected state representatives to get things changed and publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Come out to my track and get an extra 4 pct off of a 12 pct takeout. You think I can't draw crowds back to racing?

6. Customers would find that my kitchen offered quality food & beverages at very competitive prices. Again, that should be a given not the exception.

7. I'd cut a deal with Bris or Equibase or the DRF or HDW. One of the many benefits of my player rewards card would be that my customer gets FREE pp's and results of races run at my track. Period. Again, I'm in the gambling business. I'll make up any data costs ten fold through increased handle.

8. You'd see a replay of the stretch run of my feature race every day on the sports highlights segment of the most pupular local TV channel in whatever town my track was located in. You'd also see a section every day in the sports page of my local newspaper showing overnight entries, a handicap of today's races by a trackman, and the charts of yesterday's races. How do I do that? Simple. Advertising dollars talk.

When the races are over and it's time to go home, my customers leave with a sense of "Wow - that was a really fun day. WHEN can we come back?"

Oh yeah, one more thing... give me 15 years and I'll grow my business to the point where handle and the quality of my races kicks the ass of any MEC or TrackNet track to the point where a meet at MY track is now one of the premier events in all of racing... and for one reason only: MY customers will be getting what they want.



-jp

.

[dav4463]

We need cheerleaders. :)

[Jeff P]

One more thing... was trying to edit my prior post and ran out of edit time...

9. My marketing director would be making calls and pounding pavement. Groups from local organizations and large employers would always find themselves being invited out to a day at the races with some special promo thrown in like - if your group can reach a consensus and pick the late double we'll donate $1000 to your group's treasury and $10,000 to your group's favorite charity. And you'd better believe that whenever my marketing dept writes an 11k check that the story makes it into the newspaper and it gets mentioned on the 10:00 news that night. After a while my track kind of finds itself entrenched/accepted by the local community and groups are jumping at the chance to come back for a day at the races when my marketing director calls them up.


-jp

.

[alysheba88]

Lowering takeout will not make horseracing more popular, by more popular I think you mean mainstream. Who cares if the take on a tri is 30%. You still have to win the fucking thing first. Lowering the takeout will not bring novices in to the track. Novices don't know what a takeout is. They don't give a shit what the takeout is. Most people have a negative view towards horseracing because they feel it is cruelty to the animal, degenerate gambling etc... Nothing will change that, because, let's be honest. It kinda is for degenerates, and animals are treated pretty shitty.

I dont agree at all. With any of this. Sure there are people who "dont notice it". But in the end the high takeout grinds them out of the game. Then they are lost forever.

The more money you return to the player the more they will bet back.

Thats why slots are so profitable.

The stuff about cruelty is pure nonsense. Sure there is a wing of horse racing critics who mention that, but is only a very very small proportion of people who dont like horse racing.

[SMOO]

If I owned a racetrack... I'd implement a master plan to grow the hell out of my business at the expense of my competitors by... I know it's unheard of... understanding my customers and giving my customers what they want.

Here's a short list:

1. The facility would be clean... the employees customer friendly... Casinos make a very good mimc-able role model for making a gambling establishment as inviiting as possible. We're not talking about rocket science here. A clean and friendly place should be a given not the exception.

2. I'd lobby the hell out of my elected representatives to allow me to drop my takeout to 10-12 pct. And I'd publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Bettors would know they have a fighting chance. And while I might have a dress code in my clubhouse, my customers would never pay for admission or parking.

3. I'd do everything in the world (even cutting back race dates) to make sure that when my racing secretary writes conditions for a race: it fills. My priorities would be CUSTOMER based not status quo based. I know my customers want competitive races and large fields. THAT's what I'd strive for. Not the opposite. And I know it's a stretch but RACING (not slots) would be the focus of my business. You'd see a beautiful saddling area/paddock. And a facility where everything is geared towards customers watching and betting on my races.

4. I'd do everything in the world to distribute my signal as widely as possible. My live track video and replays and charts would be available right from my track's website. EVERY ADW on the planet would get a chance to carry my signal. Even if, hell, especially if they offered rebates to their players. NONE of them would get exclusive rights to my signal. If there were laws standing in the way of any of this, again, I'd lobby the hell out of my elected state representatives to get those laws changed and publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Again, my philosophy would be give the CUSTOMER what they want - not the opposite of what they want.

5. I'd create a player rewards program with teeth in it. Players who came out to my facility to bet would enjoy a substantial reduced takeout vs those that stayed home. If there were laws standing in the way of that, again, I'd lobby the hell out of my elected state representatives to get things changed and publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Come out to my track and get an extra 4 pct off of a 12 pct takeout. You think I can't draw crowds back to racing?

6. Customers would find that my kitchen offered quality food & beverages at very competitive prices. Again, that should be a given not the exception.

7. I'd cut a deal with Bris or Equibase or the DRF or HDW. One of the many benefits of my player rewards card would be that my customer gets FREE pp's and results of races run at my track. Period. Again, I'm in the gambling business. I'll make up any data costs ten fold through increased handle.

8. You'd see a replay of the stretch run of my feature race every day on the sports highlights segment of the most pupular local TV channel in whatever town my track was located in. You'd also see a section every day in the sports page of my local newspaper showing overnight entries, a handicap of today's races by a trackman, and the charts of yesterday's races. How do I do that? Simple. Advertising dollars talk.

When the races are over and it's time to go home, my customers leave with a sense of "Wow - that was a really fun day. WHEN can we come back?"

Oh yeah, one more thing... give me 15 years and I'll grow my business to the point where handle and the quality of my races kicks the ass of any MEC or TrackNet track to the point where a meet at MY track is now one of the premier events in all of racing... and for one reason only: MY customers will be getting what they want.



-jp

.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[ny0707ny]

I agree with the signal part!

I sure wish ESPN would show more horse racing rather than cheerleading all the time. I don't get no horse racing channels so I have no idea what is going on the country unless I read about it online.

This is a major problem in that no channels show it on TV hardly. Only leading up to the Derby. What about the rest of the year?

[russowen77]

If I owned a racetrack... I'd implement a master plan to grow the hell out of my business at the expense of my competitors by... I know it's unheard of... understanding my customers and giving my customers what they want.

Here's a short list:

1. The facility would be clean... the employees customer friendly... Casinos make a very good mimc-able role model for making a gambling establishment as inviiting as possible. We're not talking about rocket science here. A clean and friendly place should be a given not the exception.

2. I'd lobby the hell out of my elected representatives to allow me to drop my takeout to 10-12 pct. And I'd publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Bettors would know they have a fighting chance. And while I might have a dress code in my clubhouse, my customers would never pay for admission or parking.

3. I'd do everything in the world (even cutting back race dates) to make sure that when my racing secretary writes conditions for a race: it fills. My priorities would be CUSTOMER based not status quo based. I know my customers want competitive races and large fields. THAT's what I'd strive for. Not the opposite. And I know it's a stretch but RACING (not slots) would be the focus of my business. You'd see a beautiful saddling area/paddock. And a facility where everything is geared towards customers watching and betting on my races.

4. I'd do everything in the world to distribute my signal as widely as possible. My live track video and replays and charts would be available right from my track's website. EVERY ADW on the planet would get a chance to carry my signal. Even if, hell, especially if they offered rebates to their players. NONE of them would get exclusive rights to my signal. If there were laws standing in the way of any of this, again, I'd lobby the hell out of my elected state representatives to get those laws changed and publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Again, my philosophy would be give the CUSTOMER what they want - not the opposite of what they want.

5. I'd create a player rewards program with teeth in it. Players who came out to my facility to bet would enjoy a substantial reduced takeout vs those that stayed home. If there were laws standing in the way of that, again, I'd lobby the hell out of my elected state representatives to get things changed and publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Come out to my track and get an extra 4 pct off of a 12 pct takeout. You think I can't draw crowds back to racing?

6. Customers would find that my kitchen offered quality food & beverages at very competitive prices. Again, that should be a given not the exception.

7. I'd cut a deal with Bris or Equibase or the DRF or HDW. One of the many benefits of my player rewards card would be that my customer gets FREE pp's and results of races run at my track. Period. Again, I'm in the gambling business. I'll make up any data costs ten fold through increased handle.

8. You'd see a replay of the stretch run of my feature race every day on the sports highlights segment of the most pupular local TV channel in whatever town my track was located in. You'd also see a section every day in the sports page of my local newspaper showing overnight entries, a handicap of today's races by a trackman, and the charts of yesterday's races. How do I do that? Simple. Advertising dollars talk.

When the races are over and it's time to go home, my customers leave with a sense of "Wow - that was a really fun day. WHEN can we come back?"

Oh yeah, one more thing... give me 15 years and I'll grow my business to the point where handle and the quality of my races kicks the ass of any MEC or TrackNet track to the point where a meet at MY track is now one of the premier events in all of racing... and for one reason only: MY customers will be getting what they want.



-jp

.
Since none of your suggestions involve helping horseman where is your stock going to come from. It sounds like a good recipie for a really nice plant with Blue Ribbon Down stock to me.

I understand that the players would be very happy. HOwever, who else?

Lord knows the salary structrure for the track employees would surely suck. I am sure the legislature would gladly allow you to lower the take out as long as their % stays the same.

[Cangamble]

Lowering takeout will not make horseracing more popular, by more popular I think you mean mainstream. Who cares if the take on a tri is 30%. You still have to win the fucking thing first. Lowering the takeout will not bring novices in to the track. Novices don't know what a takeout is. They don't give a shit what the takeout is. Most people have a negative view towards horseracing because they feel it is cruelty to the animal, degenerate gambling etc... Nothing will change that, because, let's be honest. It kinda is for degenerates, and animals are treated pretty shitty.
Most people don't have a clue about the takeout, but that doesn't mean lowering the takeout won't have drastic affects on increasing the bottom line for tracks.
People will churn more, and most importantly winners and near winners will be created. This will create a buzz which will bring in new players.
It will also kill off the offshore rebate shops in most instances, bringing much of the money that is lost offshore to the mainland and to race tracks, which will cause higher profits for the tracks and better purses.

[Cangamble]

Who cares if the take on a tri is 30%
******************************
We need more players like you feeding the pools.
Why not make the take on tris 50% using your logic?

[DeanT]

Since none of your suggestions involve helping horseman where is your stock going to come from. It sounds like a good recipie for a really nice plant with Blue Ribbon Down stock to me.

I understand that the players would be very happy. HOwever, who else?

Lord knows the salary structrure for the track employees would surely suck. I am sure the legislature would gladly allow you to lower the take out as long as their % stays the same.

Huh?

His plans grows the game. Growing the game = more dollars for purses.

Every study done forever says if takeout is lowered revenue goes up. That is why slot machines were 30% takeouts in the 1960's and were lowered to the inflection point of 8% or so.

[Jeff P]

Since none of your suggestions involve helping horseman where is your stock going to come from. It sounds like a good recipie for a really nice plant with Blue Ribbon Down stock to me.

I understand that the players would be very happy. HOwever, who else?

Lord knows the salary structrure for the track employees would surely suck. I am sure the legislature would gladly allow you to lower the take out as long as their % stays the same.Yes!!! My game plan involves putting the customer first.

I think the industry's status quo has things 180 degrees ass backwards... putting the customer last and everybody else first. Before anything else changes THAT has to change first.

Look at the most successful companies out there. If there's one thing that makes them successful it's that they understand the needs and wants of their customers. Then they make it their mission to satisfy those needs and wants. True success for any company in any industry doesn't happen any other way.

The horsemen are clearly part of the industry. But they are NOT the customer.

Guarantee you the first track that gets this gets an immediate competitive advantage over all the others - as soon as they start putting the customer first.

The result - provided the game is not already mortally wounded - can only be an increase in public awareness, creation of new fans, and something unheard of: true handle growth.

What? You think creating public awareness, new racing fans, and a boom in handle is somehow bad for the horsemen?


-jp

.

[Semipro]

A few words on the stump. First the only way to grow the sport is to grow the the fan base.The key to that is providing accessible information (FREE PP"S) to semi-intelligent people who become attracted to the game notice I didn't say sport because of the mental challenges it presents. No one enjoys chess unless they at least know the basic moves the more you play the better you get as with all games. Horse racing combines the thrill of watching superb racing with tradition and wagering and if promoted in that context would grow.

[robert99]

In UK track attendance is thriving but it is a twice a year, day out social thing and very much more expensive than USA Many do not bet at all and some just $10 on the favourite, whatever that is. It is all too complicated and embarrassing, unless you have someone to explain all the jargon.

All UK betting is completely tax free.
However, racing bets have plummeted from about 90% of the total to 40%.
Why? - competition - sports, slots, lotteries, virtual racing video games, bet from tv - no skill, no knowledge, quick and easy - a bit of fun. Racing - hours of study and a daily grind to keep up - hard work for the next generation, forget it.

[46zilzal]

no skill, no knowledge, quick and easy - a bit of fun. Racing - hours of study and a daily grind to keep up - hard work for the next generation, forget it.

I try and try to get the younger crowd out and go over the basics with them ad nauseum: "That's too tough for me!"

I show them my records as to what types win on what surfaces and I hear things like "You're obsessed!" "Wow old man, how can you waste your time that way?"

Pointing out to them that is what it takes falls in deaf ears.

[Cangamble]

Robert99, correct me if I'm wrong, that even though the slice of the pie is decreasing, the gross numbers have been increasing.
Do you include Betfair in your numbers btw?

[ceejay]

My game plan involves putting the customer first.
.What a concept. You don't actually expect it to happen, do you?

[Cangamble]

What a concept. You don't actually expect it to happen, do you?
Not unless they wake up. They think they are a charity. From subsidies they get from slots to ripping off customers with ludicrously high takeouts.
They are just legitimate beggars.

[Cangamble]

5. I'd create a player rewards program with teeth in it. Players who came out to my facility to bet would enjoy a substantial reduced takeout vs those that stayed home. If there were laws standing in the way of that, again, I'd lobby the hell out of my elected state representatives to get things changed and publicize the hell out of the fact that I was doing that. Come out to my track and get an extra 4 pct off of a 12 pct takeout. You think I can't draw crowds back to racing?
*************************
I agree with everything but this.
It is better for the game if people are induced to bet from home. Bringing more people to the track won't bring in the people that make up the pools, and you want your players betting as much as possible as easily as possible.
Plus tracks don't need a bunch of $2 bettors coming to the track. They need to hire too much staff.
The buzz that occurs from people winning because the takeout is 12% would be great enough to attract many home bettors. I don't see the point in dragging them to the track.

[badcompany]

However, racing bets have plummeted from about 90% of the total to 40%.
Why? - competition - sports, slots, lotteries, virtual racing video games, bet from tv - no skill, no knowledge, quick and easy - a bit of fun. Racing - hours of study and a daily grind to keep up - hard work for the next generation, forget it.

Sadly, I must agree. There are just too many options, and society is way too fragmented for horse racing to ever recapture its glory days.

[Jeff P]

North America. Turn of the century. No. Not this one. The one where the first two numbers went from 18 to 19.

Liquor stores are popular. The store owners don't really understand or even care about their customers. Why? The store owners have the only game in town and they know it. You wanna buy booze? You gotta buy it from us. Anybody who walks into my store I can treat them any way I want. I can get away with it because I'm the only one with a license to sell booze. And oh yes, they WILL buy booze. That's just the way it is.

After a while every time a customer walks into a liquor store in any neighborhood in North America they find they are treated like shit. Worse, the owners and the managers have been doing it for so long that they've taught their employees to treat the customers like shit. It's multi-generational and becomes hard wired into the way the store owners operate their businesses.

But the customer still wants to drink. So he puts up with it. For decades. Over the years the store owners let their stores become run down. New customers who come of age venture into a liquor store once and think "Yuck. The place is a dump and they treat me like shit there. Maybe I won't buy booze as often as my dad did." But they keep coming back. Because they can't buy booze anywhere else.

North America. Turn of the century. This one. Where the first two numbers went from 19 to 20...

The liquor store owners don't have it so good anymore. Suddenly others are competing for the dollars their customers are spending. The guy who wants to drink (bet) has choices now. Convenience stores and supermarkets (casinos, poker rooms, and lotteries) are sprouting up all over the place. Worse, the owners of the new convenience stores and supermarkets aren't treating the customer like shit... just the opposite in fact... and they sell booze (gambling) for less than the independent liquor stores do.

But the independent liquor store owners aren't too bright. They still insist on treating their customers like shit and charging them higher prices than the competition. They even band together (TrackNet) so that signals can be withheld from ADWs, limits can be raised so that players seeking rebates can be thwarted... but it's all in the name of keeping the staus quo so that the last remaining loyal customers their industry has can continue to be treated like shit.

All the customers born after 1965 that the industry should have won over are smart enough to not be treated like shit. They are buying their booze (gambling fix) from those new convenience stores and supermarkets... you know... the guys who understand customer needs and wants and who don't treat the customer like shit? The industry has literally missed the opportunity to win over an entire generation of customers.

Allowed to go on long enough, eventually the industry begins to die the slow painful death it so rightfully deserves.

Unless something changes.

I wonder what that little "something" might be?



-jp

.

[JWBurnie]

With as many that play the daily lotto, why aren't they pushing bets like the Magna 5 down your throat via commercials on ESPN and posting signs where lotto is sold on what the carryover is. You can set-up an account w/ credit card in no time at all. Can you imagine if they ran the Magna 5 (or something similar) every Saturday afternoon for an hour on ESPN 2? That’s good action.



As for rewarding bettors that go to the track. Give pennies on the dollar bet back on losing tickets. Ex. $2 win bet - 3 cents, 2 exact - 4 cents, 2 tri - 5 cents. Keep the tracks clean and give people incentive to go for live racing. When people submit there losing tickets for a bet only voucher, require their Name, address & e-mail (give them a card/account number). Identify & track who your customers are, cater to them. Include them in specials and events. Set-up handicapping contests on a weekly basis; turn it into a league.

[Overlay]

The thread started with a question about how to make racing a more "mainline" sport. But, in my opinion, there are four major impediments that will always keep racing in a "minor league" status compared to sports like basketball, baseball, football, golf, etc.

First, people cannot identify with racing on the basis of their own personal participation, as they can with other sports.

Second, there's the length of time between races. (Even baseball compares favorably with racing from the standpoint of the overall pace of the action.)

Third is the fact that without the wagering and handicapping aspect, racing's fan base would evaporate -- as attested to, I think, by most of the posts in this thread dealing with that side of the game (such as the cost of past performances and so forth), or comparing racing to a casino, rather than anything to do with racing's nature as a sport. (Even though sizable amounts are wagered on other types of sports, those sports aren't dependent on wagering for their existence and revenue, as racing is.)

And that leads into the fourth hurdle: the difficulty of learning and mastering handicapping sufficiently to make it worthwhile to risk your money. Even if you give classes to people, only a small percentage of them will ever win consistently. Most people (with PA members being a notable exception) don't want to be bothered with that much effort. Sports betting, by contrast, boils down in people's minds to at worst a 50-50 chance (as opposed to finding the one winner in a field of horses).

Don't get me wrong, I'm a die-hard racing fan and supporter who loves the sport just for its history and color. But as the guy whom Andy Beyer quoted in one of his books said, "If I'd spent as much time reading law books as I have reading the Daily Racing Form, I'd be on the Supreme Court by now."

[phatbastard]

i live less than 45 minutes from Atlantic city.....haven't been in a casino for 6 years, yet i travel various distances to play the ponies.....young folks just need to see and feel the challenges and satisfaction..in selecting winners...i know it captured my heart 45 years ago

[o_crunk]

I try and try to get the younger crowd out and go over the basics with them ad nauseum: "That's too tough for me!"

I show them my records as to what types win on what surfaces and I hear things like "You're obsessed!" "Wow old man, how can you waste your time that way?"

Pointing out to them that is what it takes falls in deaf ears.

this is a bunch of hogwash, imho. the problem is you not the younger crowd. i am a part of the younger crowd and there was nothing more of a turn off then to see someone who was around the game for a very long time that knew leaps and bounds more than me.

people who know a lot tend to over-explain everything about every aspect of handicapping, what each number means in the pp's, etc. this is just a general trap of teaching (heck, i do it when i take my friends to the track).

someone starting out doesn't need to see YOUR meticulously kept records. they just need to start by being able to read what place the horse ran the last time they were on the track. and then it can grow from there. if interest is there kids will teach themselves, as i did. bombarding them with information they can't understand or digest all at once is perhaps the biggest turn off in my view.

i think a general mistake older people make is that young people today are NOT curious. fantasy football has attracted young people in droves who knew nothing about arcane football stats. kids are curious, kids like competition. they also like the ease of technology. freeing up pp will let software developers do some amazing things in my view. one of my past posts says as much. (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=455701#post455701)

railbird's last post is spot on also: (http://www.jessicachapel.com/railbird/archives/001665what_racing_needs_.html)

More geeks, more technologists, more people thinking deeply and creatively about points as diverse as PHP vs. Ruby, IPTV, experience design, usability, prediction markets, social networks, mashups, content distribution.

Racing needs a start-up culture.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS MISSING IN HORSERACING TODAY!!!!!

roll your eyes, go ahead. but kids can't relate to what is going on at the track today....and i think it's not because of the horse racing. the game just needs to brought up to speed with technology.

[46zilzal]

this is a bunch of hogwash, imho. the problem is you not the younger crowd.
Hey chief I can only relate what I have observed.
Anti-intellectualism is very prevalent in that demographic here.

[badcompany]

Hey chief I can only relate what I have observed.
Anti-intellectualism is very prevalent in that demographic here.

If this is true, why is it that the most mindless of all gambling games, slots, is played, almost exclusively, by senior citizens?

[JustRalph]

If this is true, why is it that the most mindless of all gambling games, slots, is played, almost exclusively, by senior citizens?


he was taking a swipe at PA members.............not new players.........

[46zilzal]

he was taking a swipe at PA members.............not new players.........
It's fun to be followed around by someone who THINKS they know what I mean...

Predictable as the tides. Just like the xenophobia

[Premier Turf Club]

Originally Posted by Jeff P
My game plan involves putting the customer first.

Originally Posted by Ceejay
What a concept. You don't actually expect it to happen, do you?

We do that every day. I've got to believe we have the highest customer satisfaction rate out there. I've spent the last 2 months improving on Bet Builder, what I already consider to be the best ADW interface out there, based on constant feedback from our beta testers group.

I'd like to think that means something to the industry, but sometimes I'm not so sure.

[Cangamble]

We do that every day. I've got to believe we have the highest customer satisfaction rate out there. I've spent the last 2 months improving on Bet Builder, what I already consider to be the best ADW interface out there, based on constant feedback from our beta testers group.

I'd like to think that means something to the industry, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
You can't be part of the industry because you do look after the customer first. That is a no no in horse racing.
No wonder Woodbine called you a rogue entity or something like that;)

[ceejay]

We do that every day. I've got to believe we have the highest customer satisfaction rate out there. I've spent the last 2 months improving on Bet Builder, what I already consider to be the best ADW interface out there, based on constant feedback from our beta testers group.

I'd like to think that means something to the industry, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
The industry, which as a whole treats the customer as if the customer should consider themselves lucky just to be able to spend his/her money, would be well ahead if they used PTC's business and customer service models! Unfortunately PTC is atypical in my experience.

[firstofftheclaim]

Well this thread has went off topic. Yes, lowering the takeout would be great for all of US, people who bet regularly. Although I don't see how that would put an end to rebate shops.

[Cangamble]

Well this thread has went off topic. Yes, lowering the takeout would be great for all of US, people who bet regularly. Although I don't see how that would put an end to rebate shops.
Why would ending rebate shops hurt horse racing? I think offshore bookies wouldn't be able to compete though. They don't like risk, and a 12% takeout could make it difficult to attract bettors, because they would have to offer something extra.

[Cangamble]

Why would ending rebate shops hurt horse racing? I think offshore bookies wouldn't be able to compete though. They don't like risk, and a 12% takeout could make it difficult to attract bettors, because they would have to offer something extra.
I meant to say, why do you need to end rebate shops to improve racing's attractiveness and growth?

[JustRalph]

It's fun to be followed around by someone who THINKS they know what I mean...

Predictable as the tides. Just like the xenophobia


Hey, It is your quote?

Hey chief I can only relate what I have observed.
Anti-intellectualism is very prevalent in that demographic here.

maybe if you meant those at Woodbine you should have written it better.

Btw, how many people on this board are laughing at you trying to explain horse racing to young people........? I find it hysterical..........the way you talk down to people on this board........????? Give me a break :lol:

[JPinMaryland]

Good Lord! Is that Sam Drucker? Havent seen him in 35 years... :p

Anyhow, how much was track take out in the 1960s? Someone was saying somewhere on this site that it was around 10%. :eek: I dont know if that is true but that is at least some evidence that take out has something to do with attendance. Gawd I cant believe that is true. Does anyone have more specific numbers on this?

WHat is take out in Vegas on like Hold 'Em? Does anyone think that if the house take was up to 25% or more that HOld Em would be as popular?

Mindless. Take out has nothing to do with attendance. Whatever..

[Jeff P]

Believe me when I say this Ian: Your work does NOT go unappreciated!

What pisses me off the most about the industry are things that organizations like TrackNet do... Yes, they TALK a good game. But they turn around and do things that fragment the industry... like denying their signals to ADWs... and forcing new contracts onto ADWs already carrying TrackNet signals so they can prevent ADWs from paying out rebates unless the ADW's customer is betting at least $1 million annually.

Stop and think about that for a second. Whose customer is it? If you ask the customer - I'm guessing there isn't one customer on the planet betting through an ADW who would ever come out and say "No. I'm not a PTC, TVG, YouBet, or RGS customer. I'm a TrackNet customer!"

Think about this. TrackNet is placing restrictions on prices that ADWs must charge the ADW customer... as if that customer were a Tracknet customer - which they most certainly are not. If THAT isn't anti-customer and anti-handle growth I don't know what is.

In fact I think there's another phrase that describes it.

Pretend for a moment that my name is TrackNet and that instead of owning a bunch of racetracks I'm a liquor distributor. I sell 100,000 cases of Miller Lite to Walmart at $10.00 a case. Walmart wants to put Miller Lite on sale. They want to turn around and sell those 100,000 cases of product to their customers for $8.99 a case. Who the hell am I to tell them "No. You can't DO THAT! If you want to carry Miller products in the first place you have to charge at least $12.00 a case... unless you sell to an alcoholic... and you can PROVE he's an alcoholic because he buys at least 10,000 cases of beer a year... if he's an alcoholic you can sell him Miller Lite for $10.50 a case... but everybody else better be paying at least $12.00 a case... and if I catch you selling Miller Lite to anybody who's not an alcoholic for $10.50 a case you're cut off. You will never be able to sell Miller products at Walmart ever again.

I could be wrong but I think they call that restraint of trade.

What a broken joke of an industry this is. And despite it all, I love this game and I keep coming back for more.



-jp

,

[Niko]

Yes!!! My game plan involves putting the customer first.

I think the industry's status quo has things 180 degrees ass backwards... putting the customer last and everybody else first. Before anything else changes THAT has to change first.

Look at the most successful companies out there. If there's one thing that makes them successful it's that they understand the needs and wants of their customers. Then they make it their mission to satisfy those needs and wants. True success for any company in any industry doesn't happen any other way.

The horsemen are clearly part of the industry. But they are NOT the customer.

Guarantee you the first track that gets this gets an immediate competitive advantage over all the others - as soon as they start putting the customer first.

The result - provided the game is not already mortally wounded - can only be an increase in public awareness, creation of new fans, and something unheard of: true handle growth.

What? You think creating public awareness, new racing fans, and a boom in handle is somehow bad for the horsemen?


-jp

.

Come on Jeff, it's the trainers to do what they want and bet against their fans and use whatever "treatments" that work.... the game wouldn't survive without them...as Vladimer Cerin once said--paraphrasing from when the Jeff Mullins story broke (I didn't mind what Mullins said-at least he was stating a form of truth that racetracks won't acknowledge, and I'm not sure why Cerin didn't catch flack for this) "the fans don't need to know what's going on with my horses, it's none of their business"--I really need to find the quote maybe someone can dig it up.

Some things to help racing go mainstream;

1) Disclosure. Most casual fans I know believe at some level that they can't win and the game is fixed. What if there was an SEC type of organization that kept track of who was winning. Are they insiders cashing the big bets or average Joe's. If it's average Joe's the tracks should be promoting the hell out of it with stories...Joe Blow hits xxx superfecta, etc. Make the casual fans feel they have a chance. W

In the stock marekt insider trading is not accepted anymore and it HELPED the liquidity of the market. Horse racing encourages insider betting. I bought into the fact that owners should be able to bet on their own horses but I'm starting to wonder. They're already running for purse money. Why do all other sports eliminate gambling by the athletes and owners EXCEPT for horse racing. It just begs for manipulation. I know some insiders lose, but there's some savy betting outfits isn't there?

2) Uniformity of rules and regulations...a.k.a Nascar, NFL etc. Cars have to use the same equipment, there's nothing hidden. Now in horse racing the physical condition of an animal has to hidden to some extent because of the claiming game. But what about uniform drug laws and testing-the NTRA has failed miserable so far. Too many hands in the cookie jar. And if someone gets caught in horse racing, they get a paid vacation...ooohhhh

3) Horse racing is not a sport, it is not "entertainment", IT IS gambling. Deal with it, promote it and don't hide it. Without betting it would not exist. You have to make it easy for people to show up and play. You have to make it fun for them to return. Good food, clean amenities (I need to find the spell check), a chance to win once in a while etc.

4) Liquidity. After the rebates post I wholeheartedly agree that big (losing)players should receive rebates at some level. You do need liquid markets to attract bigger players. You just can't do it to the point that you're wiping out the little guys. Whales volume is going up, overall handle is going down. I guess the loss isn't coming from the whales.



Horse racing is entering what should be the twilight of racing. It's best market has always been the 50 and older crowd. They have the money and time. Here come all the baby boomers and the tracks are missing out.

Miss this wave and kiss the tracks goodbye. The majors and those with slots and cards will be the only survivors.

[46zilzal]

Btw, how many people on this board are laughing at you trying to explain horse racing to young people........? I find it hysterical..........the way you talk down to people on this board.......
I just consider the source and forget about it.

Is a proper vocabulary that threatening?

[Cangamble]

3) Horse racing is not a sport, it is not "entertainment", IT IS gambling. Deal with it, promote it and don't hide it. Without betting it would not exist. You have to make it easy for people to show up and play. You have to make it fun for them to return. Good food, clean amenities (I need to find the spell check), a chance to win once in a while etc.
*******************************************
This is a key point. Racing used to be considered entertainment when they were the only game in town. They used to be both. It is not entertainment anymore. Not with the internet, 200 plus TV stations, etc.
And it isn't gambling either, because gambling implies that there is reasonable chance of winning in the long run. Without rebates there is no reasonable chance. With takeouts as high as they are, the racing execs think they are pulling the wool over the eyes of the public by rationalizing to themselves that we bet because we like the entertainment value.
Meanwhile other real gambling has shown up. Internet poker, Betfair, and internet blackjack to a lesser degree.

[Cangamble]

Good Lord! Is that Sam Drucker? Havent seen him in 35 years... :p

Anyhow, how much was track take out in the 1960s? Someone was saying somewhere on this site that it was around 10%. :eek: I dont know if that is true but that is at least some evidence that take out has something to do with attendance. Gawd I cant believe that is true. Does anyone have more specific numbers on this?

WHat is take out in Vegas on like Hold 'Em? Does anyone think that if the house take was up to 25% or more that HOld Em would be as popular?

Mindless. Take out has nothing to do with attendance. Whatever..
Most people don't think about track takeout, but they react to it. In other words, if they think there is no shot (because they walk away broke most of the time), they find new hobbies or bet less frequently.
In the 60's, I believe in Ontario we were looking at 14%. Again, there was only 8 races, 1 daily double, and 2 exactors to play in an 8 race card, and you had to be at the track, or take a chance with a bookie, to bet.
People rarely walked out broke. Picking winners or betting place or show parlays were the name of the game.
There wasn't another 90 simulcast races with a 28% takeout in each race to dry you out.

If the take was high in holdem or blackjack, people wouldn't last long, and realize it is only a losing proposition. The tables would be empty.

[samyn on the green]

The plain fact is that racing is in a low popularity cycle now. The game is incompatible with the times where most desire instant gratification. Are you hungry? roll into the drive-thru for instant Mcburgers, boom you have filled your intestines. Are you bored and need some entertainment? We have 477 channels right at your fingertips. What about broads? There are millions of photos available on the internet, it is all so easy and cheap. These things once took a tremendous effort to attain and can now be had cheaply and easy. Horseplaying is as hard now as it has ever been. Racing is like an old chewed up bone protected by a pit bull in a supermarket stocked with beautiful porterhouse steaks on sale and ready to go.

In this climate of easy and cheap thrills how can you expect some Joe six-pack to put down their burger and remote to read PP's and absorb tough beat after tough beat watching animals run in a circle? Mainstream sports fans like TV mindless games where they can sit down, zone out and have a TV presenter tell them what to think. There is little nothing asked of the mainstream sports fan except buy the things we show you on the commercials. Conversely, horseplaying successfully is a massive effort coupled with a little mental abuse.

Some argue that lowering takeout will save the game, but that is a fallacy. Takeout has absolutely nothing to do with the popularity of racing (http://gregcalabrese.blogspot.com/search/label/takeout) especially from a mainstream point of view. It has been proven that low takeout bets are unprofitable and are not handle drivers. The takeout could be cut in half tomorrow and only a select group would notice or care. The average horseplayer is not savvy enough to capitalize on low-takeout bets the horseplayer wants action. You talk about takeout with a mainstream sports fans and they will respond with Sesame Chicken or Little Ceasers Pizza Pizza.

There is little appeal to the mainstream fan in dissecting the PP's and picking winners. While many of us love playing the ponies, we are in a small minority. We absorb the abuse of tough beats and losing streaks, the horses are a big part of our recreational lives. The hope is always for that race that we can crush and our egos are once again nourished with the fruits of handicapping genius. Today many people are just too feeble minded to deal with the downs of racing and need a fricking zoloft just to be happy. The fruits of handicapping genius are just to challenging for them to reach for, the effort is too much to ask. Instead of the fruits of handicapping genius the modern mainstream fan wants to sit on the couch and have a fruit flavored smoothie delivered to them. Do not count on racing to go mainstream anytime soon.

[DeanT]

Boy Samyn, I could not disagree more with that whole post.

Look at this paragraph:

In this climate of easy and cheap thrills how can you expect some Joe six-pack to put down their burger and remote to read PP's and absorb tough beat after tough beat watching animals run in a circle? Mainstream sports fans like TV mindless games where they can sit down, zone out and have a TV presenter tell them what to think. There is little nothing asked of the mainstream sports fan except buy the things we show you on the commercials. Conversely, horseplaying successfully is a massive effort coupled with a little mental abuse.

Now tell me, why is Texas Hold Em popular? I dont understand that game. I bought about five books. I cant make heads or tails of it. You sit there for ten hours at a table, grinding, and most of the time you sit there saying "fold". To be a big poker player you need to study, arguably, as much as racing and put tons of time into it. The reason hold em is popular is simple, and it cuts to your second point about lower takeouts: Hold em is popular because people can win.

Everyday people can not win at racing. Egregious high prices are why. Go onto betfair tomorrow and watch the trading. You will see $3 million matched on a cheap race from a B track in England somewhere. People are playing racing there because betfair does not have high takeout and they can win there.

Prices are everything. Whether you are buying a house, a hamburger, a pair of pants or making a bet. The only people who dont seem to realize this salient economic fact that has run the capitalistic world since cavemen traded beaver pelts are the people who run racing.

How popular would stock trading be if it cost you 25% of your trade in commission? That's right, it wouldnt.

Pricing is everything.

[samyn on the green]

Hold em has been around for centuries and was not popular until it was featured on TV 6 or 7 years ago. TV made hold em popular, now that the fad is a few years old that popularity is waning.

If takeout is such a handle driving factor then why do the Sam Houston 25% takeout trifectas have double to triple the handle of the 12% takeout pick 3? Why did Laurel lose total handle when they lowered takeout over the summer. While some shrewd players may gravitate towards low takeout wagers the average horseplayer wants action. When the horseplayer proves that he is smart enough to make takeout a driving factor for increasing handle, the tracks will have the ammunition needed to convince regulators to lower takeouts. If Sam Houston management went to the Texas board of wagering and tried to lower the takeout to match the 12% pick 3 they would be laughed at. The numbers prove that 2-3 times as much is wagered on the 25% trifecta, we should they lower the takeout to match the struggling 12% takeout pick 3?

[DeanT]

The answer to all takeout questions like that are twofold:

1) Price sensitive players have left racing for low rake alternatives already

and

2) Price sensitive players are playing at rebate shops, where a Sam Houston pick 3 at 12% is given the same effective takeout rate.

We have lost hundreds of thousands of players to high prices, and we lose them every day. It is why we have bet less in real dollars today than in the pre-internet days, where the internet has made every other game like racing explode.

[Imriledup]

All your suggestions are great. There's only one problem. The 'suits' who run racetracks think all gamblers are lowlife scum that doesn't deserve anything at all. The culture of racing was that for many years it was the only game in town.....so, all heads of racetracks are trained to act like they are the only game in town and give the customer NOTHING.

Like Willie Wonka tells Charlie and his Grandpa, "you get NOTHING. GOOD DAY SIR."

Racetrack managements feel that the people who show up to the track are degenerate scum that's going to show up no matter how badly they are treated...so, why give them perks? Why give them free admissions, free parkings, reduced and quality food, lower takeout, etc.?

Why do it if you don't respect your customer?

Also, another factor is that most racetracks are run by the GM's and the suits who are on track.....they are higher ups, but not THE higher up. Any GM of any racetrack is making good money and they don't want to rock the boat. The GM's job is simple. Spend as little money as possible. What do you think would happen to a GM if he went to the racetrack owner and said, "Mr owner, i have a great idea. Lets do the customer a favor and cut out the parking fee. While i'm at it, lets let some people in the gates for free. I also think we should hand out free past performances instead of charging money for them"

What do you think that owner would say? He might not say anything, but he would be thinking to himself, "what kind of GM is this guy? I hire him and all he wants to do is give all my money to the customers?"

No, the GM's job is to be a company man, don't rock the boat, Don't be innovative and don't cost the company money. Don't come up with suggestions that LOSE the company money.

After all, what's in it for the GM if he comes up with a great suggestion to help out the fans? Its not like he's going to get a raise for eliminating parking and admission fees.

[Pell Mell]

The plain fact is that racing is in a low popularity cycle now. The game is incompatible with the times where most desire instant gratification. Are you hungry? roll into the drive-thru for instant Mcburgers, boom you have filled your intestines. Are you bored and need some entertainment? We have 477 channels right at your fingertips. What about broads? There are millions of photos available on the internet, it is all so easy and cheap. These things once took a tremendous effort to attain and can now be had cheaply and easy. Horseplaying is as hard now as it has ever been. Racing is like an old chewed up bone protected by a pit bull in a supermarket stocked with beautiful porterhouse steaks on sale and ready to go.

In this climate of easy and cheap thrills how can you expect some Joe six-pack to put down their burger and remote to read PP's and absorb tough beat after tough beat watching animals run in a circle? Mainstream sports fans like TV mindless games where they can sit down, zone out and have a TV presenter tell them what to think. There is little nothing asked of the mainstream sports fan except buy the things we show you on the commercials. Conversely, horseplaying successfully is a massive effort coupled with a little mental abuse.

Some argue that lowering takeout will save the game, but that is a fallacy. Takeout has absolutely nothing to do with the popularity of racing (http://gregcalabrese.blogspot.com/search/label/takeout) especially from a mainstream point of view. It has been proven that low takeout bets are unprofitable and are not handle drivers. The takeout could be cut in half tomorrow and only a select group would notice or care. The average horseplayer is not savvy enough to capitalize on low-takeout bets the horseplayer wants action. You talk about takeout with a mainstream sports fans and they will respond with Sesame Chicken or Little Ceasers Pizza Pizza.

There is little appeal to the mainstream fan in dissecting the PP's and picking winners. While many of us love playing the ponies, we are in a small minority. We absorb the abuse of tough beats and losing streaks, the horses are a big part of our recreational lives. The hope is always for that race that we can crush and our egos are once again nourished with the fruits of handicapping genius. Today many people are just too feeble minded to deal with the downs of racing and need a fricking zoloft just to be happy. The fruits of handicapping genius are just to challenging for them to reach for, the effort is too much to ask. Instead of the fruits of handicapping genius the modern mainstream fan wants to sit on the couch and have a fruit flavored smoothie delivered to them. Do not count on racing to go mainstream anytime soon.

Five days a week for almost 60 yrs I was at the track and until I came here, never heard anyone say they would be a winner if not for the take. What a crock! How does a lower take make a winner if he can't pick a winner?

Look at the state lotteries, 50% take and doing a thriving business. Guys that used to book the numbers payed 500/1 on a 1,000/1 shot, did anyone care?

Racing will have to operate like a lottery to gain new fans. There has to be the hope of a huge payoff for a buck. I remember when Irish Sweepstakes mania would hit the country every year.

How about selling tickets randomly generated on BC day, the TC, etc.? Large lottey like pools have to be created with the results based on the outcome of horse races. Nobody will give a damn about the take.

Another thing, lotteries and slots are popular because in addition to the hope of hitting it big, they keep paying a little bit back as a teaser. The average player doesn't want to go broke in one fell swoop, they like to die a slow death. They want a lot of action for the least amount possible. For instance, if a bettor could make a win bet and get back a small amount if the horse ran 2nd or 4th. They must be bled, not have their heads chopped off.

I'm sure others here could think up some innovative bets but they have to be geared to the mentality of the masses not to the experienced capper, who I'm sure would find ways to exploit the situation. JMO

[Cangamble]

I used to play hold em poker tons in the late 70's and early 80's. Friends, mostly from the track would come to my house (my father's house) and we'd play to the wee hours of the morning. Back then, most of us didn't go broke at the track because there were only 9 races (no simulcasting).
There was no rake in our games which were mostly $1-$2 games. I was in my late teens at the time, and found the game to be great. None of us even thought, hey we aren't paying a rake, but the reason we kept playing is we all thought we had a chance to be long term winners within our crowd.
Sometimes the pots got as high as $80 to $90.

In hindsight, knowing what I know now, I wish I spent my time chasing chicks ;) because in the end I probably just made a few hundred dollars for my efforts, and if I had it all to do over again and knew then what I know today...well, everyone knows the answer to that one. But it was fun just the same.

BTW, the internet made holdem popular before TV just moved the game more mainstream. And the TV fascination over it seems to be gone now. Just a fad. To my understanding though, it is very popular still on the net.
Why, because people last and have a reasonable chance to win if are disciplined and want it bad enough.

[Cangamble]

Five days a week for almost 60 yrs I was at the track and until I came here, never heard anyone say they would be a winner if not for the take. What a crock! How does a lower take make a winner if he can't pick a winner?
***********************************
:ThmbDown::bang::ThmbDown::bang::faint:

[betchatoo]

Jeff P:
I like your race track, but I'd like to add a few things to it. First, a handicapping center where there would be a daily session for new players, explaining the basics of the racing form to them (which we have given them for free), telling them how it is the horses life story and explaining how to use it. There would be a second session for more advanced players, more of an interactive workshop where handicappers could gain new insight and exchange ideas on todays races. In addition, this area would always have customer service people ready to walk newcomers through all the different type of bets, step by step. This information would also be available online to those who bet from home.

Speaking of customer service there would be floor people (much like casino pit bosses) who would actually listen to and address customer complaints on the spot. Treat people fairly and they remember it.

If possible there would also be someone to guide clients to the paddock between races. This person would show customers how horses are prepared for a race, point out the different equipment and discuss the difference in the looks of horses and what it might mean. He might even walk them back to the track and take them through the warm up.

For the experienced player those player's cards would give them the rght to entrance to gambling areas reserved for the more knowledgeable, so they are not stuck in line behind a novice taking 10 minutes to bet a $1 exacta box (we want to take care of the novice but not at the expense of our daily players.)

My marketing person would work constantly on getting groups outings from different companies and making sure they have a nice time. People go back to where they have fun even if they lose a few bucks. I would have loads of contests for groups and beginners to make them feel like winners. I would also consider having a partner track (ala Ohio) so that races could be shown every 10 minutes for those who couldn't wait.

Finally, I would have whatever clever brains I could assemble find a way to make racing contests fun to watch on tv. This means assembling good and interesting handicappers, following their picks, having people care about who wins and making watching the races a dramatic moment.

Customer service is what separates companies that work business to business. People remember where they were treated well.

[Indulto]

http://www.queenscourier.com/articles/2008/03/04/news/local/news01_a.txt
Big A is running on empty
BY JOSH ZEMBIK... According to the New York Racing Association (NYRA), since that race, Belmont has drawn more than 100,000 fans on three separate occasions - the largest crowds in New York history. Each of those races however was the Belmont Stakes - the third leg in racing's Triple Crown.

Outside of major races, however, attendance is in steep decline across New York's tracks, down 28 percent from 2001 to 2006. Going back even further, the decline is 55 percent from 1990, when 3.98 million fans clicked through the turnstiles.

"Our real problem is that the industry has told people to not come to the track," said Fran LaBelle, NYRA's assistant communications director. "With off-track betting, it's easy to bet on races from somewhere else now."

LaBelle pointed out that New York State's top-five on-track handles - total amounts bet - are all from post-9/11 races, topping out with $14.7 million wagered on the Breeders' Cup at Belmont on October 29, 2005. "The money and the interest are definitely still there," he said.

... "More people are participating every day now than at any time in the sport's history," said Keith Chamblin, senior vice president of the National Thoroughbred Racing Association. "They're just doing it at thousands of locations across the country instead of the handful they used fifty years ago. We've seen a migration from on-track attendance to off-track attendance and simulcast locations around the country."

... Catering to the notion of a broader race experience, Aqueduct opened what was then the largest restaurant in New York City in 1981. Equestris has seating for 1,600, but with crowd totals for the entire track not much larger than that on most days, the restaurant, which has a dress code, is more a cavernous relic than an achievement to be touted.

Fans instead congregate around the Nathan's hot dog stand and the Sbarro pizza restaurant in the food court. They grab their pizza and hot dogs and scamper back to the TVs or to the track itself. ...Racing cannot continue the charade that the exodus of on-track patrons can be reversed. The industry can still thrive, and even increase the game/sport's popularity (over current levels), but only with fewer racetracks.

I used to be an advocate of keeping HOL open, but now I think closing both HOL and BM will be an opportunity to strengthen California racing and, possibly, save MEC. The key will be to give Hollywood Park's dates to Golden Gate Fields and move to non-overlapping dates for major league racing in Northern and Southern California the way New York does with BEL and SAR.

Technology and economics have made home viewing/wagering the overwhelming option of choice, and off-track players the only market worth pursuing. Why burn $5 a gal. gas for hours on clogged freeways for the privilige of paying for parking and admission to dens of discomfort and disrespect? Especially when your large screen TV allows you to view clear, magnified, live and replay action -- with accompanying, actually audible race calls -- in comfort. Your PC accepts wagers without worry of being shutout, accesses and processes data dispassionately, and keeps track of how you're doing and when you should do it. Nourishment compatible with one's wallet and life-style are within easy reach as are clean facilities.

There would always be at least three major tracks nationwide to play nearly every day, and maybe the combined horse populations would support at least ten full and competitive California fields five days a week if not six like DMR. Additional sporting events and other distractions are also available as desired

Track management should open their eyes. The age of binoculars is over! ;)

[alysheba88]

Since none of your suggestions involve helping horseman where is your stock going to come from. It sounds like a good recipie for a really nice plant with Blue Ribbon Down stock to me.

I understand that the players would be very happy. HOwever, who else?

Lord knows the salary structrure for the track employees would surely suck. I am sure the legislature would gladly allow you to lower the take out as long as their % stays the same.

How is anything in Jeff's post "hurting owners"?

I am assuming you understand the relationship between handle and purses so how is anything he said hurting owners?

[SMOO]

Five days a week for almost 60 yrs I was at the track and until I came here, never heard anyone say they would be a winner if not for the take. What a crock! How does a lower take make a winner if he can't pick a winner?
***********************************
:ThmbDown::bang::ThmbDown::bang::faint:

A long term 5% loser would become a long term 5% winner with a 10% reduction in take. That's how chief.

[ny0707ny]

Thanks guys for all your responses. I never thought I would get this many. You guys have great ideas.

[firstofftheclaim]

I'm 26. I'm the kind of person the racetrack wants to attract, no offense to some of the old timers whove been around for a while. I REALLY wish people would stop comparing poker and horseracing. It just doesn't work. Most of my friends would rather trade copper futures than spend a day at the track. With horseracing, either you like it or you don't. You really can't 'attract' people to it. Nobody just wakes up one morning and says "Hey, I've never been to a racetrack before, I think I'm going today because they lowered th takeout 3 points on exotics" etc... Horseracing is a slow game, young people don't want to sit around for 20 minutes to have a chance to win $12. Novices don't want to bet simulcast, they want to see live horses.

[Pell Mell]

A long term 5% loser would become a long term 5% winner with a 10% reduction in take. That's how chief.

Yes, if your talking about a player with a method who plays every day and is a grinder of sorts. To the average guy, takeout means nothing so don't think because you can add it makes you a winner:bang: :rolleyes:

[Cangamble]

I'm 26. I'm the kind of person the racetrack wants to attract, no offense to some of the old timers whove been around for a while. I REALLY wish people would stop comparing poker and horseracing. It just doesn't work. Most of my friends would rather trade copper futures than spend a day at the track. With horseracing, either you like it or you don't. You really can't 'attract' people to it. Nobody just wakes up one morning and says "Hey, I've never been to a racetrack before, I think I'm going today because they lowered th takeout 3 points on exotics" etc... Horseracing is a slow game, young people don't want to sit around for 20 minutes to have a chance to win $12. Novices don't want to bet simulcast, they want to see live horses.
Your friends are attracted to trading copper because of the buzz that you can win. The lower the takeout, the more chance you can win, whether you are cognizant of the takeout or not.

[Cangamble]

Yes, if your talking about a player with a method who plays every day and is a grinder of sorts. To the average guy, takeout means nothing so don't think because you can add it makes you a winner:bang: :rolleyes:
Even if your ROI goes from .8 to .9 because takeouts get lowered by 10%, you don't have to be aware of the takeouts at all. You will be aware that you seem to win more days than you used to, and you will have more money to churn. You will most likely be betting at least 10% more, and most likely even more than that because you might think the game is getting easier and if you worked at it a little more, you could be a winner.

Let me ask you something. If you go to the track with $100 and cash an early tri for $90, and that is the only thing you cash, you will most likely lose $190 on the day. Correct?

If you cash $100 on the same tri, you will most likely lose $200 on the day if you don't cash anything else. But imagine if you cash something on that last $10. And you win $150. Chances are, you couldn't wait to go to the track again.

Bottom line, you only have x amount to lose on a year. If you don't think you have a chance at one game, you might diversify to other forms of gambling. The idea of lowering the takeout is for the track to still get your x amount you lose each year, but you get a lot more action, and have the possibility of being a winner eventually, and focusing solely on horse racing, and possibly bringing out friends more because you find you win more often.

[chickenhead]

people not understanding the takeout is precisely why, from a marketing point of view, a reduced takeout should be in the form of a rebate.

People understand "CASH BACK". A daresay that the 4% p4 experiment would have done better had the customers on track known that losing tickets could be redeemed for 15% of face value.

My dad has been a recreational player for 30 years, I don't think he has a clue what a takeout is. He understand cash money in his pocket, tho.

[Cangamble]

people not understanding the takeout is precisely why, from a marketing point of view, a reduced takeout should be in the form of a rebate.

People understand "CASH BACK". A daresay that the 4% p4 experiment would have done better had the customers on track known that losing tickets could be redeemed for 15% of face value.

My dad has been a recreational player for 30 years, I don't think he has a clue what a takeout is. He understand cash money in his pocket, tho.
I understand your point, but as everyone points out here, few think about takeout, but they tend to play games that give them a reasonable chance of winning. If winning days are few and far between, interest takes players elsewhere or puts them on the shelves for months.
I think by just giving the player the extra payout prices, it will work just as well as giving rebates. I can see giving rebates as incentives to get people to open internet accounts though versus people that won't.
Psychologically, the track can look like they are doing a player a favor more by giving rebates than by reducing takeouts.
As long as I'm betting into a takeout (rebate included) of 15% or less on everything, I'll be very happy.

[kenwoodallpromos]

2007 Breeder's Cup Post Times:
12:30 p.m. 1:10 p.m. 1:55 p.m. (dirt)2:35 p.m. (turf)3:30 p.m. 4:05 p.m. 4:50 p.m. 5:35 p.m.
______________
On the day with the most major cable/or network tv coverage and potential exposure to new fans, post times are 35 minutes apart- and in one case, the turf race is 55 minutes after a dirt race.
Tbred racing is run by a bunch of morons!
No one who is not addicted to gambling wants to sit and wait 30 minutes between action, and the vast majority of gamblers do not want to either.
Then pre-radio and tv and nationwide pro sports attitiude just does not work anymore.
Each year the number of total carded races nationwide decreases. Racing will continue dying without more broadcast TV Exposure, Color, Sound, and Motion(action). Rodeos get a bigger per-event audience.

[MickJ26]

Reducing the takeout and changing the taxation laws are great for the everyday player. In order to make horse racing more mainstream is to attact the people who only care about horse racing on Derby Day.

Give out free programs; reward programs for everyone, not just the high rollers; good restaurants with good food; picnic areas; friendly and informative customer relations; vouchers for a free $5. bet; etc.

[46zilzal]

They really need to have a different perspective with the announcers. Ever since ESPN took it over, the mute button stays ON.

They really need some expert European commentary. At some of the earlier Breeder's Cups, a fellow who used to head an English program called World Class racing, would have some really good insights on how the Europeans had prepared for the dirt and the tighter inner courses.

[chickenhead]

the first call I'd make if I was made racing czar would be google. their goal is to organize the worlds information, guess what google I got a whole bunch, and its all jacked up.

Tell them I want a fully integrated system from auto bet terminal at the track, to the tote, to the adw interface...from the pp and chart info to the video feeds to the video replays.

It would cost money to upgrade the systems...and it would put most of the current industry players out of business, but I'd drag racing into the 21st century kicking and screaming and they'd thank me for it later.

What's great about it, is they'd do it for free, or a fraction of a percent of handle.

[JWBurnie]

I'm 26. I'm the kind of person the racetrack wants to attract, no offense to some of the old timers whove been around for a while. I REALLY wish people would stop comparing poker and horseracing. It just doesn't work. Most of my friends would rather trade copper futures than spend a day at the track. With horseracing, either you like it or you don't. You really can't 'attract' people to it. Nobody just wakes up one morning and says "Hey, I've never been to a racetrack before, I think I'm going today because they lowered th takeout 3 points on exotics" etc... Horseracing is a slow game, young people don't want to sit around for 20 minutes to have a chance to win $12. Novices don't want to bet simulcast, they want to see live horses.

I see it a little different (I'm 32). Horseracing is a product like no other; the races are a social event, and should be marketed as one. You can attract people. Make it inviting, give them a reason to come so you can show them your product. Ex. Magna tracks, put in a Hooter's (or should it be Frank's w/ "his girls") restaurant. Maybe a nice restaruant that is open, even on dark days, have a night club. Throw a concert every month. Have beer and wine festivals. Most everyone I take to the track once, always wants to go back and looks forward to me inviting them again, and this is going to Colonial, Laurel and CT. BTW, Colonial is great on a Friday evening.

[ny0707ny]

Yeah I actually kind of like the rodeos since they started showing them. They made a new fan with me since they showed them on a national channel.

If the major networks showed a few hours of horse racing once a month, it would help in getting more fans. But for some reason they won't do it.

The time gap between races can be worked with. Having commentary about horses between races or showing races around the world which they never do. What is going on with Hong Kong racing? Who knows, we never see any of the races on TV. Do they still even race there? :D

I really think you need someone running this that is a major horse racing fan and knows what will work and what won't. It seems that whoever runs this and makes decisions does not know what will make the sport popular.

I really don't know why nobody sees it but the fans. Im following horse racing for many years and see no changes at all.

At least soccer is moving up here. I liked it since 1980 when nobody cared for it. Took 28 years to finally get popular here but at least I lived to see it. The MLS is really taking off big. ESPN showed that game with Mexico vs USA I never turned my eyes away from the TV. They gotta show more soccer also.

[russowen77]

It seems to me most folks are looking at this in terms of just the bettors. I wish it were better %s also but I don't think that is the big picture.

Go to the average racetrack and what can you do? Bet on races and now do some slots. The ones I visit have racetrack food etc.

IMO, if you want to really grow you need to expand the thinking. Give folks who aren't bettors- like spouses who don't bet- other things to do. OP has a lot of wasted space that could be used for things like good local resturants and shops, arcades, and even day care.

It would be a lot easier for many bettors to get to go to the track if they could take the family with them and have somethings that the non bettors of the group really want to do.

IMO, they need to look at the total envirenment and go from there. Damn, OP looks like a dungeon inside if the weather is not sunny.

The economy is not bright right now and their is a lot of different ways to spend you entertainment dollar. If horse racing wants to continue to be viable they need to find ways to compete in this world, not last centuries.

[JustRalph]

Just for the record. Sam Houston Race park had a very nice area for player education and they had some damn fine people who were available to answer questions in the office almost all the time. One of our members, Purplepower was in charge of it I believe. I am not sure how busy it was.

so, some tracks have tried that route. I don't think they do it anymore???


Let me tell you. Good customer service goes a long way. If you have ever been to Keeneland, you know what I mean. I bet the average age of their employees is about 55. And every one of them is nice as hell and the older ones are the best. They understand. I have never been to another race track where you have to show up 4 hours early to get a seat...............you do at keeneland. And getting in at 8 a.m. and watching the busy work of the employees is different than any other race track I have seen.

Jeff's list of stuff is pretty common place in just about any successful restaurant or other like business. The successful ones anyway. I don't see how it would hurt horsemen.

[SMOO]

2007 Breeder's Cup Post Times:
12:30 p.m. 1:10 p.m. 1:55 p.m. (dirt)2:35 p.m. (turf)3:30 p.m. 4:05 p.m. 4:50 p.m. 5:35 p.m.
______________
On the day with the most major cable/or network tv coverage and potential exposure to new fans, post times are 35 minutes apart- and in one case, the turf race is 55 minutes after a dirt race.
Tbred racing is run by a bunch of morons!
No one who is not addicted to gambling wants to sit and wait 30 minutes between action, and the vast majority of gamblers do not want to either.
Then pre-radio and tv and nationwide pro sports attitiude just does not work anymore.
I agree with most of what you say, no one wants to think outside the box.
How about a split Breeders Cup between 2 tracks, like the sunshine millions races split between Florida & California, shared events could go every 15 minutes if they wanted to.

For similcast bettors on regular days, staggering the post times between 3 major tracks can cut it to a regular 10 minute interval. These "set" arrangements could be shown on the big screen for those outdoors @ the track(s).

[boomman]

I'm 26. I'm the kind of person the racetrack wants to attract, no offense to some of the old timers whove been around for a while. I REALLY wish people would stop comparing poker and horseracing. It just doesn't work. Most of my friends would rather trade copper futures than spend a day at the track. With horseracing, either you like it or you don't. You really can't 'attract' people to it. Nobody just wakes up one morning and says "Hey, I've never been to a racetrack before, I think I'm going today because they lowered th takeout 3 points on exotics" etc... Horseracing is a slow game, young people don't want to sit around for 20 minutes to have a chance to win $12. Novices don't want to bet simulcast, they want to see live horses.

first: I'm 50 and have been in the horse racing business almost 30 years and spent 16 winters in the poker business when I wasn't calling horse races, and you're really off base if you think the 2 shouldn't be compared. First of all, poker (if played properly) is MUCH slower than horse racing. You can sit there for hours and hours and if the cards really "run over you" you maybe play 10% of the hands. The crossover between horse players and poker players is HUGE and both "games" have a house rake off the top and then it's player vs. player. Both "games" are also greatly benefitted by television exposure...And if you think you can't "attract" people to the pageantry of horse racing, then take them to a beautiful paddock such as Del Mar sometime and see the excitement it generates. You say in the next paragraph that novices want to see live races...well why would that be if the races didn't "attract" them?:confused:

Boomer

[JustRalph]

And if you think you can't "attract" people to the pageantry of horse racing, then take them to a beautiful paddock such as Del Mar sometime and see the excitement it generates. Boomer

This is something that always bothered me. Some places you can get close and really get a look at good horses. It can blow your mind. Having never been to a decent track outside of Ohio, the first time I went to Del Mar and got a look at some "good stock' I was flabbergasted at the way these horses looked up close. It was incredible. My wife didn't want to leave the paddock. Keeneland is the same way. You can stand on a balcony and look down on the paddock from the simulcast area. Walk 20 steps to a window where you can bet that horse you just checked out in the paddock. Works great. Or you can stand outside and do the same on the ground floor.

I read about attracting women to the sport. I think this kind of paddock experience would do it. Just getting up close and viewing the horses usually drives most women crazy. Why aren't the tracks taking advantage of this?

[kenwoodallpromos]

I agree with most of what you say, no one wants to think outside the box.
How about a split Breeders Cup between 2 tracks, like the sunshine millions races split between Florida & California, shared events could go every 15 minutes if they wanted to.

For similcast bettors on regular days, staggering the post times between 3 major tracks can cut it to a regular 10 minute interval. These "set" arrangements could be shown on the big screen for those outdoors @ the track(s).
How about the alternate track carding a "Claiming Crown" type race card in between the BC races? Promote claiming type races and at the same time talk up small ownership.

[kenwoodallpromos]

This is something that always bothered me. Some places you can get close and really get a look at good horses. It can blow your mind. Having never been to a decent track outside of Ohio, the first time I went to Del Mar and got a look at some "good stock' I was flabbergasted at the way these horses looked up close. It was incredible. My wife didn't want to leave the paddock. Keeneland is the same way. You can stand on a balcony and look down on the paddock from the simulcast area. Walk 20 steps to a window where you can bet that horse you just checked out in the paddock. Works great. Or you can stand outside and do the same on the ground floor.

I read about attracting women to the sport. I think this kind of paddock experience would do it. Just getting up close and viewing the horses usually drives most women crazy. Why aren't the tracks taking advantage of this?
How about at least for the first 2 races of the day, someone at the paddock explaining what to look for in "Physicality Handicapping"?

[GlenninOhio]

I think too much is made of the so-called complexity of the game, especially as regards handicapping.

As a child of 11 or 12 in NYC in the 60's, I would go to the track with my parents a couple of times a month, along with a buddy of mine.

We each developed our own approach to handicapping using the Form (it was called The Morning Telegraph back then). I had a couple of angles I really liked (what worked best for me were shippers from the Jersey tracks at the claiming level, who seemed to be seriously under bet in the NY pools).

My point is that I'm no genius, nor was my buddy, yet a couple of 12 year olds were able to catch on pretty easily because we loved watching (and betting via my parents) on the races.

Maybe this has no applicability to 2008 and our slots world, but if you took some of the many steps outlined in this thread to bring more people to the track and make the experience as enjoyable as possible for them, the "complexity" of picking horses should not be an issue. In fact, the bigger crowds would naturally include many who would pick 'em based on their names and their program numbers and the colors of the silks, which is exactly what serious players would like to see (another argument for a takeout rate that doesn't kill players like this).

[46zilzal]

People make the game MUCH more complicated than it should be. At the heart of it, most races boil down to only a few factors. K.I.S.S.

[njcurveball]

People make the game MUCH more complicated than it should be. At the heart of it, most races boil down to only a few factors. K.I.S.S.

Please list those "few factors". Energy distribution is not done with a "few factors", by the way.

[Tom]

It's not?
F1, F2, and F3 (%med)
or
EP and F3. (%E)

What else is there?

[alysheba88]

A day at the races is far cheaper then just about any other major sport.

Look at what it costs for family of four to go to Yankee game and compare to going to Belmont or Monmouth. And you can bring in food and all the beer you want.

Can get great seats and up close views of world class athletes. And can win money to boot. Even if you lose you can spend much less money overall then you would at a team sports event.

[njcurveball]

It's not?
F1, F2, and F3 (%med)
or
EP and F3. (%E)

What else is there?

I know where you are coming from Tom, and that stuff is far from K.I.S.S.

To compute a first fraction velocity, you need the following factors and formulas

1.) Speed of first quarter
2.) lengths behind at 1st call
3.) value of a beaten length
4.) knowledge of how many feet in that fraction
5.) formula to compute the velocity ((1320 - (length_value * beaten lengths) /quarter time)

I can go into all the other formulas, but the point is that there is no K.I.S.S. here.

It would be great to look at last race finish as a "simple" factor, but there are so many variables attached to it. Class, distance, surface, track, pace, jockey, etc.

Most of the time when someone comes up with a "simple" graph, there is really nothing simple about it.

[46zilzal]

Aqueduct (inner) can come down to almost a single factor % median.

[njcurveball]

Aqueduct (inner) can come down to almost a single factor % median.

Well if % median is a single factor then so is the K rating in HTR.

I then feel confident in saying K.I.S.S. means just using the K rating. Although that rating is based on 25 factors, it fits your definition. :ThmbUp:

[Semipro]

Back to subject yes females are very attracted to the stock whatever could it be. I haven't a clue,but from my more than limited experience they really love being close to the horses and never discourage her from betting the one she likes because of his looks. If it should win you'll find yourself looking for a nearby motel. A little female handicapping tip.:cool:

[stu]

Today, I met two new people. Both asked similar questions once they found out my career. Neither had ever been to the races nor planned on ever going.

The barista asked me if horses are drugged.

The phlebotomist asked me if jockeys stiff horses.

Horseracing has a negative image with the masses that must be combatted in order to become more popular.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Today, I met two new people. Both asked similar questions once they found out my career. Neither had ever been to the races nor planned on ever going.

The barista asked me if horses are drugged.

The phlebotomist asked me if jockeys stiff horses.

Horseracing has a negative image with the masses that must be combatted in order to become more popular.
Why didn't the Phleb ask if horse sample-tested horses are drugged? maybe they have an idea good testing will out the druggers?

Racing factors-- Just 2 you need if you are good enough handicapper- trainer competency and runner consistency.

[dav4463]

You need celebrities who are recognizable who actually play the horses to do commercials for the sport. I know there are plenty of Hollywood types or athletes who play the horses. Dick Van Patton comes to mind, Scott Baio, even though they aren't superstars...they are recognizable. I'm sure there are others who are more A-list.

The sport needs to recognize the handicappers as much as the trainers/horses/jockeys, etc. This is one of the few sporting events that horseplayers can actually be a part of the game. That angle should be advertised.

Make it cool to go to the track like (insert celebrity here) and you will draw fans to the track.

[Robert Fischer]

Mass Media

and i do NOT mean this guy
http://z.about.com/d/horseracing/1/0/5/b/1/metmile06-5a.jpg


half the junk that "we" buy or even value, is because of the TV or other media...
The NFL or NBA wouldn't be anywhere near what they are with Horseracing's mass-media usage