photo finishes

[juanepstein]

im tired of seeing photo finishes with no reference point on the developed photo. how do we know they are not screwing with the public?

this has to change.

last race at los alamitos tonight the #6 nailed the #5 at the wire. the #5 at 6/5 and the #6 was 9/1. they showed the slow-mo and you can see the #6 nailed him. if anything its a dead heat.

they placed the #5 as the winner at 6/5 and when they show the photo there is no reference point and instead of the nose of the #5 touching the line the line is over the top of the nose of the #5 on the photo with the #6 about a half an inch from the line.

crooks

[ManeMediaMogul]

The photo is not of the finish, like you stood on the line and took a picture. It is a photo of each horse as it passes the finish line.

That means when you look at a photo finish photo, you are looking at each horse's nose on the finish line, not a snapshot of history.

This is done by the film moving towards the eighth pole while the horses are moving towards the 15/16 pole. The slit in the camera (lens) is photographing each horse as they pass the finish line.

The finish margins that you read in the past performances are then calculated on a scale. They too are not a snapshot of history but a calculation. That is why you sometimes think a horse won by five but the margin only shows three and a half. It is apples and oranges.

I hope this clarifies your concern. There is no arbitrary finish line. It is the same for all entrants.

[BombsAway Bob]

im tired of seeing photo finishes with no reference point on the developed photo. how do we know they are not screwing with the public?

this has to change.

last race at los alamitos tonight the #6 nailed the #5 at the wire. the #5 at 6/5 and the #6 was 9/1. they showed the slow-mo and you can see the #6 nailed him. if anything its a dead heat.

they placed the #5 as the winner at 6/5 and when they show the photo there is no reference point and instead of the nose of the #5 touching the line the line is over the top of the nose of the #5 on the photo with the #6 about a half an inch from the line.

crooks
Glad I wasn't needing the #6..looked like a Heater to me on 'shutter-cam'

[JPinMaryland]

This is quite confusing to me:

The photo is not of the finish, like you stood on the line and took a picture. It is a photo of each horse as it passes the finish line.

Meaning what? SUrely the photo is taken of both horses at the same time, else how else would you compare them? Also how does that relate to the camera angle? One could snap three photos of three different horses and the camera angle could be anywhere...

There is a photo of the famous 3 way dead heat in the Carter hdcp. Surely that was one photo taken at one moment???

That means when you look at a photo finish photo, you are looking at each horse's nose on the finish line, not a snapshot of history.... There is no arbitrary finish line. It is the same for all entrants



SOrry I dont get it or I am missing something. I understand there is no arbitrary finish line, that seems elementary. I am not sure what you are getting at there.

But I still dont get when you say it is not a snap shot of history. Nor do I understand how it relates to Juan concern about the camera angle... :confused:

[onefast99]

This happened at Monmouth Park a few years ago the owner brought a suit against the stewards and had an expert witness on the "dead heat" that was called and later over-ruled by the racing commission, he got his win money!

[juanepstein]

Glad I wasn't needing the #6..looked like a Heater to me on 'shutter-cam'

wish it was.

i had the #5 and #6 in the last with the #4 and #9 in the race before. the #4 scratched at the gate and the #9 won as the favorite won. would of had 4 different payouts on that pk3 then just the one #5 favorite in the last payout.


thanks for the responses everyone.

what i want on the photo is to be able to see the mirror or whatever is used in the picture with the photo line or a painted mark on the rail so when the photo comes out you can see the rail and you can see that the photo line goes dead center across that rail refrence mark. its only fair that the public can compare the photo to something instead of leaving their trust to the stewards or whomever.

[toetoe]

I think it means that each had his own photo. Can we compare them ?

[bigmack]

this has to change.
last race at los alamitos tonight the #6 nailed the #5 at the wire. the #5 at 6/5 and the #6 was 9/1. they showed the slow-mo and you can see the #6 nailed him. if anything its a dead heat.

5 wins. Case closed.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/photo1.jpg

[toetoe]

Your Honor, you can't just shutter the case. Meet me in camera, please. :p

[classhandicapper]

In the immortal words of Felix Unger "All cameras distort!" ;)

[InsideThePylons-MW]

The photo is taken without the finish line.

The finish line is added to the photo.

Many a time the finish line has been tweaked to make a DH or a more pronounced winner (narrowing and fattening of the line).

[ManeMediaMogul]

This is quite confusing to me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManeMediaMogul
The photo is not of the finish, like you stood on the line and took a picture. It is a photo of each horse as it passes the finish line.



Meaning what? SUrely the photo is taken of both horses at the same time, else how else would you compare them? Also how does that relate to the camera angle? One could snap three photos of three different horses and the camera angle could be anywhere...

There is a photo of the famous 3 way dead heat in the Carter hdcp. Surely that was one photo taken at one moment???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManeMediaMogul
That means when you look at a photo finish photo, you are looking at each horse's nose on the finish line, not a snapshot of history.... There is no arbitrary finish line. It is the same for all entrants





SOrry I dont get it or I am missing something. I understand there is no arbitrary finish line, that seems elementary. I am not sure what you are getting at there.

But I still dont get when you say it is not a snap shot of history. Nor do I understand how it relates to Juan concern about the camera angle... images/UBGX/E19.gif


To: JP in Maryland

When I said the photo was not a snapshot of history, I meant it wasn't a traditional photo in the sense of a winners' circle photo or a SI swimsuit model shoot. It is a different type of photo - actually a group of photos, almost a motion picture. A photo finish photo is actually a composite photo of each horse as it passes the finish line. In other words, when you look at the photo, you can draw a finish line on every horse's nose because that is where he was photographed.

All of those famous deadheat photos are taken the same way. It is each horse as it passes the finish line. In the triple deadheat photos they all arrive at the line at the same time - hence the dead heat.

In Epstein's photo, it is obvious who won - the horse who crossed the finish line first. It is true that the line on the photo is drawn in post race, but it is for comparision purposes - to easier show the placing judges and public who won. If you drew a finish line on the second-place finisher, you would see that the #5 was ahead of him, so the #5 crossed the finish line first.

You can trust me on this. I am intimately familiar with the process. I will also say that as far as the photo finishes go, horse racing is on the level. There is absolutely no manipulation of the photos or results by racetracks or any other entities involved in the photo finish process.

[Murph]

From the State of Kentucky:

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/kar/811/001/010.htm

Section 9. Photo Finish, Film Patrol, Head Numbers, Starting Gate. (1) At an association where pari-mutuel wagering is allowed, a photo finish, film patrol, head numbers, saddle pads, and starting gate shall be used.

(2) At an extended pari-mutuel meeting, the association shall provide for a back-up starting gate.

(3) If the judges use a photo to determine the order of finish, the photo shall be posted for public inspection.

(4) Photo finish equipment shall include a stationary camera, mounted above the finish wire and perpendicular to the race track, along with a spinner or stationary target.

(5) A camera utilizing a shutter between the film and the race track during the actual finish of a race, or which has a field view greater than twelve (12) inches at the finish line, shall not be utilized. The presiding judge shall verify that the photo finish equipment is in working order prior to each racing program.

Similar to Utah's regulation:

14. Electronic Photo Finish Device. All organizations shall install and maintain in good service an electronic photo finish device for photographing the finishes of all races and recording the time of each horse in hundredths of a second, when applicable, to assist the placing judges and the Stewards in determining the finishing positions and time of the horses. Prior to first use, the electronic photo finish device must be approved by the Commission; and a calibration report must be filed with the Commission by January 1 of each year. A photograph of each finish shall be promptly posted for public view in at least one conspicuous place in the public enclosure.

Some interesting technical information on a typical photo finish system:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3829869.html

A photo finish record system produces a time sequence photograph of race contestants crossing a finish line in alignment with a numerical display of elapsed time: the recording unit of the system has a lens and narrow aperture focusing images of a narrow band including the finish line on a self-developing film carried at constant speed past the lens by a film carriage driven on a linear track by a constant force spring motor acting on the carriage through a cable which is wound on a pulley controlled by a constant speed governor. An electronic clock drives a light emitting diode display producing visible numerical indications of elapsed time, which are projected onto one edge of the film. An automatic control cycle is provided whereby the unit is activated only when signaled by a photoelectric sensor near the finish line. The interruption of a light beam by a contestant nearing the finish line causes the sensor to operate a switching circuit releasing a film advance latch, opening the camera shutter and turning on the lighted time display, all of which functions are deactivated a predetermined time after restoration of the beam to the photoelectric sensor, except that the cycle is retriggerable by another finishing contestant. An opening is provided on the carriage for through the lens alignment of the unit upon actuation of a manual alignment control which releases the film advance latch and stops the carriage with the opening aligned with the lens.

Those should give folks a better idea.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"A photo finish record system produces a time sequence photograph of race contestants crossing a finish line in alignment with a numerical display of elapsed time:"
Nothing to see here, just my usual complaint about only the winner's time being reported to the public!!

[Robert Fischer]

All of those famous deadheat photos are taken the same way. It is each horse as it passes the finish line. In the triple deadheat photos they all arrive at the line at the same time - hence the dead heat.

In Epstein's photo, it is obvious who won - the horse who crossed the finish line first. It is true that the line on the photo is drawn in post race, but it is for comparision purposes - to easier show the placing judges and public who won. If you drew a finish line on the second-place finisher, you would see that the #5 was ahead of him, so the #5 crossed the finish line first.


Epstein's photo shows the photo for the #5 only.

There is no multiple photo magic going on. No need to overlay multiple photos = The #6 was kind enough to get up into #5's photo ;), being only a nose back of him at the time 5's photo was snapped.
Since it was #5's photo, the "finish line" is meant to indicate where #5 "hit the wire".

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/photo1.jpg

[stu]

Since it was #5's photo, the "finish line" is meant to indicate where #5 "hit the wire".

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/photo1.jpg

The white line is meant to indicate "when" and not "where" the #5 cross the wire.

The photofinish system produces an image that shows distance on the y-axis and time on the x-axis. A conventional photograph is distance on both axis.

Every line parallel to the white is the finish line at a different moment of time.

Another way to convince you of this is to see the compression/extension of a horses body as he crosses the line. A horse going slow at the end appears to be longer than one going faster.

Think of it this way. The finish line photo is taken every 1/1000th of a second is only a pixel wide.

[toetoe]

Why not wait for the photo of (6) hitting the wire and see whether (5) is lapped over the line ?

Interesting point about the distortion. When the camera is going too fast, they stretch out like merry-go-rounders, and when too slow, they truncate. Or maybe vice versa ?

[robert99]

You can see the continuous photo strip time-line scale and effect of the mirror to give the judge a view of both sides of the finish at:

http://www.racetech.co.uk/photo.html

[46zilzal]

MOST courses don't use film any longer. The machine scans the finish line as the horses cross it. The reference is two makers at the rails: if they don't line up in the photo, it has to be re-aligned.

The one I use is here:http://www.finishlynx.com/products/finishlynx/overview/index.htm

There are two examples there that show how it works. Click on "Show me the horse race animation."

[46zilzal]

This is going to look skewed because it was taken from my "bird's nest" up on the roof. The white foam piece is right on the finish line. There is one exactly like it directly across on the grandstand (inner) rail.

Each day the federal parimutuel regulator comes up and asks me to do a random scan. If the two targets (the orange area at the top of this foam piece) are in proper alignment, I will see two orange lines on the top and the bottom of my scan. If NOT we have to have someone go down and line them up and rescan. Until he is satisfied they are exactly across from one another, the races cannot be run.

[46zilzal]

Even though, in the static picture, you see how narrow the white post is, in the SCAN it makes a solid white background as the horse moves by this standard point of reference.

[thespaah]

This is quite confusing to me:



Meaning what? SUrely the photo is taken of both horses at the same time, else how else would you compare them? Also how does that relate to the camera angle? One could snap three photos of three different horses and the camera angle could be anywhere...

There is a photo of the famous 3 way dead heat in the Carter hdcp. Surely that was one photo taken at one moment???



SOrry I dont get it or I am missing something. I understand there is no arbitrary finish line, that seems elementary. I am not sure what you are getting at there.

But I still dont get when you say it is not a snap shot of history. Nor do I understand how it relates to Juan concern about the camera angle... :confused:here is what the he means....The camera activates shortly before the horse get to the finish. There isn't a Snap shot per se..Its a film record of the entire field crossin the lone..The camera runs continupously until the last horse finishes his race...So what we see is a strip image...The camera is a super high speed camera able to "stop" each horse as it crosses the sensor that mark's the finsih "line"..
Here's a link to a photo strip image from the Meadowlands....The srtip image is of the field as the winner finsishes "his' race...http://thebigm.com/finishStripSm.asp?raceid=17041

[46zilzal]

Here's a link to a photo strip image from the Meadowlands....The srtip image is of the field as the winner finishes "his' race...http://thebigm.com/finishStripSm.asp?raceid=17041
No that is EVERY horse as it crosses the finish line.

[thespaah]

No that is EVERY horse as it crosses the finish line.I was commenting on this specific image..I said the film continues to capture the field until the last horse finshes the race... Hence, 7ou are correct..and so am I ...This image is of when the winner finshed the race. It is not the only image.