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oddsmaven
02-28-2008, 10:42 AM
Since many bettors like to know what odds they are getting, I would like to share my knowledge in terms of a guide on what to look for in terms of late betting-odds direction.



I can only speak from the NYRA circuit that I follow, though I imagine this would mostly hold true elsewhere, though perhaps NY OTB (while still around) would contribute to some of these factors.



When the odds open up, certain traits will generally show and as the odds change, other typical factors influence the later play. I’ll simply split this up as early play & late play:



Dropping in class generally will generate late play; stepping up conversely – early play.

Inside posts: early play; extreme outside: late

Last an “unusually” good effort -early; Consistent horse coming off sub-par effort- late

Lots of races with few wins: early; Very few races: late

Stretching out particularly off closing effort: early; Shortening up distance: late



Here are some more traits that draw early money: an “entry”, a good jockey more-so if a favorable change or got the call (conversely if the jock hopped off to ride another, will open high), a big win or good 2nd. And of course we’ve seen that most longshots are mostly soaring at the end after starting lower.



One that draws lots of early money that I can’t explain but is true: Horses who’s names include a “person’s name”. Like Jumping Joe or Betty Boop. Or a silly sounding/catchy name. Plus venerable old campaigners - OTB players love those as well.



Other “late” money traits: Often a layed out horse or shipper. Some obvious things like someone getting in off the AE list. Most FAVORITES. Naturally someone getting pounded will draw momentum of late play, though I would look for common sense to prevail in the final flash, so the logical ones that look good on paper will generally keep dropping but if the late momentum seems inexplicable look for it to cool at the end. And then we have contenders who just plain opened high that end up getting driven down if too much of an overlay.



First time starters: the post position, jockey & “name” will affect as discussed. Good trainer and fast works will factor heavily into the equation with steady play. A lot of them that seem to win as a “good thing” tend to be tipped in the early money, rise a bit and then come down again late.



Trouble line: An obvious “taken” up in the stretch will get bet early, but maybe a wide trip darkening the form would get late play.



A big rule rule of thumb: any horse that looks obviously dangerous after a quick review will open up with play and those that look good only upon close examination will be popped at the end.



Some horses seem to open up “dead” on the board compared to how they look. Often a horse coming off a photo finish win will do that. People seem to hate that as if they think they might have nothing left now, but that doesn’t necessarily hold true. The horses that lost a photo usually do well early for some reason. Any who’s last race was slow even if they ran well, that will not bode well for early play, though they may take play later if too much of an overlay.



If a speed horse who lost ground is drawn outside another speed horse, they often open up “dead”. I’m not the best judge of pace scenario, so beyond that, am not sure how pace scenarios generally affects the early/late betting trends.



That’s a lot to digest so those haven’t dozed off half-way through this from overkill, congratulations :sleeping: . It’s not easy to confidently “know” what will happen with the late odds. There are all of these multiple factors and sometimes they will offset, but you will find these trends to hold overall.

njcurveball
02-28-2008, 10:55 AM
You make very good points. And since I have only bet on-line through 4NJBETS my experience may be different than others.

I do not have a clue when my money actually hits the tote. I can tell you that it is somewhere between the first flash and when they start running.

My "independent tests" of advanced wagering show that even betting at 1 pm for a night track will not see the money come in for the first flash. It almost seems as if they just put it in when they feel like it during the betting cycle.

Having said that, there is no way to tell from the tote WHEN the bets came in, so even if you have a perfect strategy, the system itself inhibits any consistency in implementing it.

There is also a lot of "cloudiness" with some people canceling bets. With more and more money coming in, it is impossible without a tote report to see how much was canceled and on which horses at which time.

Just my own opinion and experience.

Jim

DanG
02-28-2008, 11:05 AM
In the interest of bandwidth I won’t quote OddsMaven’s thread starter but that is one very interesting post! Also Jim [NJCurveball] points out very well all the modern complications involved.

Thanks for sharing that Oddsmaven…good stuff on an important topic. :ThmbUp:

oddsmaven
02-28-2008, 11:53 AM
Dan, thanks for the :ThmbUp: ...and Jim, for relating your thoughts....I don't know "who" is betting, and when & what feeds are coming in, but for the most part, on the NYRA circuit, what I posted, holds...I'm going to assume that the OTB money comes in a few waves...a fairly early flash and they have to send money at the end too, but I'd say that their proportion of the early money is surely pretty high compared to the on-track and others, and at a low proportion late...and though I respect the late money more, I suspect that some sharp stable dollars are mixing in with the early money too...I understand your point about "cloudy" late cancellations, but for the most part wouldn't expect too much of an impact at a big circuit.

alysheba88
02-28-2008, 12:05 PM
One thing you can project at NYRA races is the 8-5 horse who gets out quickly to the lead will be 6-5 or even money by the time he finishes :)

oddsmaven
02-28-2008, 12:51 PM
One thing you can project at NYRA races is the 8-5 horse who gets out quickly to the lead will be 6-5 or even money by the time he finishes :)

Call me naive if you will, but I tend to believe those situations are often a result of excellent handicappers having figured out who "should" grab that lead & win.

The money shows too late for everyone else to see by betting right before the bell because they either don't want to tip their hand to the rest of the public and drive the odds down even farther, or they are waiting until the end to see if the odds are high enough for them to accept, realizing they'll go down somewhat one last time.

What say you? Shady stuff going on? I have pretty good faith in truly run races, though I can't ignore the suspensions we've seen on drugging. :(

Tape Reader
02-28-2008, 07:54 PM
Oddsmaven,

IMHO, you are adding a zillion variables to reading the tote board.

alysheba88
02-28-2008, 08:01 PM
Call me naive if you will, but I tend to believe those situations are often a result of excellent handicappers having figured out who "should" grab that lead & win.

The money shows too late for everyone else to see by betting right before the bell because they either don't want to tip their hand to the rest of the public and drive the odds down even farther, or they are waiting until the end to see if the odds are high enough for them to accept, realizing they'll go down somewhat one last time.

What say you? Shady stuff going on? I have pretty good faith in truly run races, though I can't ignore the suspensions we've seen on drugging. :(

Past posting happens. Thats what i think happens. Not in all cases. But more then you might think. Just once I would like to see the on the lead horses odds drift up during race and win

46zilzal
02-28-2008, 09:46 PM
With simulcasting one does not know where, or often, even WHEN bets were made. I have seen several hubs miss two or three "dumps" and then unload all those bets the next time round as if they were all made at the same time.

Past posting is a romantic notion that simply does not happen.

Murph
02-29-2008, 07:11 AM
Oddsmaven,

IMHO, you are adding a zillion variables to reading the tote board. That was my first thought too. When do you actually decide to bet or not bet, as you are in the middle of this extensive last minute evaluation?

Murph

oddsmaven
02-29-2008, 11:46 AM
Oddsmaven,
IMHO, you are adding a zillion variables to reading the tote board.

another quote from Murph:
That was my first thought too. When do you actually decide to bet or not bet, as you are in the middle of this extensive last minute evaluation?

My answer:

I agree it's a lot to take in, some of my rules (class drop for one) trump the others so what to look for can be limited, however, I avoid cluttering my last second decision process on whether to bet with regards to the odds, as follows: I evaluate the field "beforehand" based on my rules and mark up the Form for which ones will likely get early play & which late play - particularly the horse I'm interested in. It doesn't guarantee knowing what will happen in the final flashes, but it usually proves out.

mountainman
02-29-2008, 12:21 PM
Since many bettors like to know what odds they are getting, I would like to share my knowledge in terms of a guide on what to look for in terms of late betting-odds direction.



I can only speak from the NYRA circuit that I follow, though I imagine this would mostly hold true elsewhere, though perhaps NY OTB (while still around) would contribute to some of these factors.



When the odds open up, certain traits will generally show and as the odds change, other typical factors influence the later play. I’ll simply split this up as early play & late play:



Dropping in class generally will generate late play; stepping up conversely – early play.

Inside posts: early play; extreme outside: late

Last an “unusually” good effort -early; Consistent horse coming off sub-par effort- late

Lots of races with few wins: early; Very few races: late

Stretching out particularly off closing effort: early; Shortening up distance: late



Here are some more traits that draw early money: an “entry”, a good jockey more-so if a favorable change or got the call (conversely if the jock hopped off to ride another, will open high), a big win or good 2nd. And of course we’ve seen that most longshots are mostly soaring at the end after starting lower.



One that draws lots of early money that I can’t explain but is true: Horses who’s names include a “person’s name”. Like Jumping Joe or Betty Boop. Or a silly sounding/catchy name. Plus venerable old campaigners - OTB players love those as well.



Other “late” money traits: Often a layed out horse or shipper. Some obvious things like someone getting in off the AE list. Most FAVORITES. Naturally someone getting pounded will draw momentum of late play, though I would look for common sense to prevail in the final flash, so the logical ones that look good on paper will generally keep dropping but if the late momentum seems inexplicable look for it to cool at the end. And then we have contenders who just plain opened high that end up getting driven down if too much of an overlay.



First time starters: the post position, jockey & “name” will affect as discussed. Good trainer and fast works will factor heavily into the equation with steady play. A lot of them that seem to win as a “good thing” tend to be tipped in the early money, rise a bit and then come down again late.



Trouble line: An obvious “taken” up in the stretch will get bet early, but maybe a wide trip darkening the form would get late play.



A big rule rule of thumb: any horse that looks obviously dangerous after a quick review will open up with play and those that look good only upon close examination will be popped at the end.



Some horses seem to open up “dead” on the board compared to how they look. Often a horse coming off a photo finish win will do that. People seem to hate that as if they think they might have nothing left now, but that doesn’t necessarily hold true. The horses that lost a photo usually do well early for some reason. Any who’s last race was slow even if they ran well, that will not bode well for early play, though they may take play later if too much of an overlay.



If a speed horse who lost ground is drawn outside another speed horse, they often open up “dead”. I’m not the best judge of pace scenario, so beyond that, am not sure how pace scenarios generally affects the early/late betting trends.



That’s a lot to digest so those haven’t dozed off half-way through this from overkill, congratulations :sleeping: . It’s not easy to confidently “know” what will happen with the late odds. There are all of these multiple factors and sometimes they will offset, but you will find these trends to hold overall.

Love how you think outside the box. Since it's often necessary to wager before late tote flips, the ability to forsee odds "corrections" constitutes a skill crucial to making money. As part of Mnr's in house handicapping show, I consider this a useful service to viewers and draw on considerable experience as my home track's official oddsmaker. Your findings confirm what I have long suspected; squares bet early and wiseguys late. The thing is, though, most wiseguy horses wind up overbet, and late money is rarely as smart as it thinks. Barn money would be a seperate topic, as would oddsboards still in flux at the 1/4 pole.

In my opinion, late tote developments can be more psychological than based on tangible factors. The sheep mentality compels the crowd to see that some horse, often regardless of merit, ends up strongly favored.

46zilzal
02-29-2008, 12:23 PM
That was my first thought too. When do you actually decide to bet or not bet, as you are in the middle of this extensive last minute evaluation?


The ONLY thing that should make you get off a bet at the 11th hour would be the odds. If you are still having to think about the contenders and the type(s) of wagers, you don't really understand that race.

Overlay
02-29-2008, 02:45 PM
In my opinion, late tote developments can be more psychological than based on tangible factors. The sheep mentality compels the crowd to see that some horse, often regardless of merit, ends up strongly favored.

All the better for the odds on solid horses that get overlooked in the process.