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David-LV
02-25-2008, 10:50 AM
Is a switch back to a tried and true dirt surface in Santa Anita's future??

It appears that the CHRB synthetic surface mandate has been lifted due to the major failure of this type of surface being installed at Santa Anita.

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David

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A potential return to dirt racing at Santa Anita has the preliminary support of Richard Shapiro, the chairman of the California Horse Racing Board and a major proponent of synthetic tracks in recent years.

Shapiro backed away from that mandate in an interview of the weekend, but remained hopeful that Santa Anita would install a different synthetic surface later this year.

“If, at the end of the day, Santa Anita comes forward and said, We’ve looked at the options and we believe for the safety of the horse and rider that we’ve got a plan to put in a dirt track on top of a good solid base, and they would put in a track that was safe, personally, I’m not totally opposed to that,” he said


http://www.drf.com/news/article/92531.html

David-LV
02-25-2008, 11:21 AM
Baffert Wants Dirt Put Back
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It looks like Mr. Baffert was right after all.http://www.homebased2.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

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David


http://www.dailybulletin.com/ci_7917702 (http://www.dailybulletin.com/ci_7917702)

Santa Anita Leaving Track Options Open

By Art Wilson

Quote:
… Baffert said Tuesday he is hopeful Santa Anita will return to a dirt surface now that all Southland racing venues have had to fix the bases of their tracks in order to install artificial surfaces.

"It took something like this to really put the big money into the base, which they've already done," Baffert said. "So now (that) they've got good bases, they can put dirt on top.

"I would love to see, and I think a lot of trainers don't want to speak up, but if they found the right kind of dirt, do it right, leave it up to Richard Tedesco (track superintendent), and if he can find the right kind of soil or dirt to put on there, I think everybody would be happy."

Charles would not comment on whether Santa Anita has washed its hands of the company, even if the the racetrack decided to install a new synthetic surface when this meet ends.

"I think we're going to leave all options open," Charles said.

PaceAdvantage
02-25-2008, 05:36 PM
If Santa Anita does go back to dirt, this must be considered a MAJOR blow to the synthetic dreamers....

After all, if one of the biggest name tracks in the industry can't make a go of this stuff, why would anyone else make the leap of faith in the future?

BillW
02-25-2008, 05:40 PM
If Santa Anita does go back to dirt, this must be considered a MAJOR blow to the synthetic dreamers....

After all, if one of the biggest name tracks in the industry can't make a go of this stuff, why would anyone else make the leap of faith in the future?

I don't understand how we all feel they won't screw up putting in a dirt track. It wasn't the track makeup that caused the problem, it was their incompetence.

TitanSooner
02-25-2008, 08:43 PM
I don't understand how we all feel they won't screw up putting in a dirt track. It wasn't the track makeup that caused the problem, it was their incompetence.
you mean Cushion Track's incompentence.. right?

David-LV
02-25-2008, 08:50 PM
If Santa Anita does go back to dirt, this must be considered a MAJOR blow to the synthetic dreamers....

After all, if one of the biggest name tracks in the industry can't make a go of this stuff, why would anyone else make the leap of faith in the future?


Mike,

From your mouth to God's ears.

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David

ny0707ny
02-25-2008, 08:50 PM
I feel sorry for all betters out there if Breeders' Cup is on poly. It is impossible to know what horse likes the surface unless they raced on it before. And each poly track runs different from the next one.

We didn't have the poly tracks all these years. Now they all have to put them in? Horses still get injured on the poly tracks so it does not solve any problems really.

If New York tracks go to Poly I may quit following the sport for good.

BillW
02-25-2008, 08:51 PM
you mean Cushion Track's incompentence.. right?

I would hold SA mgmt responsible ( especially if I were a stockholder!). It's their responsibility to maintain their track.

David-LV
02-25-2008, 08:56 PM
you mean Cushion Track's incompentence.. right?
What was so great about Del Mar's Poly Garbage ??

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David

Marshall Bennett
02-25-2008, 10:21 PM
I'm still pissed at what they did to Keeneland with that crap . I loved that racetrack . What was once a truely unique setting , a meet that everyone looked forward to , is now just another synthetic pile of shit nightmare !!

TitanSooner
02-25-2008, 10:26 PM
What was so great about Del Mar's Poly Garbage ??

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David
um, it drained.

TitanSooner
02-25-2008, 10:28 PM
I would hold SA mgmt responsible ( especially if I were a stockholder!). It's their responsibility to maintain their track.
Was it their job to install it properly?

I would be more pissed at the CHRB for the stupid mandate in the first place than I would be at SA..

BillW
02-25-2008, 11:40 PM
Was it their job to install it properly?

I would be more pissed at the CHRB for the stupid mandate in the first place than I would be at SA..

I'm not talking about some ideological hatred for artificial surfaces. I'm talking about management being responsible for what it is required to run a business. All businesses are faced with government mandates and requirements that they must deal with to be successful. Failure to do so is not the governments fault.

Should it be decided that they will replace their current track with a dirt track they will be faced with the same apparently unsurmountable challenge of identifying, hiring and overseeing a subcontractor retained to install a track that they were when they began the original project to install the artificial surface. The fact that is dirt has no bearing on their success. If the same mistakes are made, the same outcome will result.

TitanSooner
02-25-2008, 11:48 PM
I'm not talking about some ideological hatred for artificial surfaces. I'm talking about management being responsible for what it is required to run a business. All businesses are faced with government mandates and requirements that they must deal with to be successful. Failure to do so is not the governments fault.

Should it be decided that they will replace their current track with a dirt track they will be faced with the same apparently unsurmountable challenge of identifying, hiring and overseeing a subcontractor retained to install a track that they were when they began the original project to install the artificial surface. The fact that is dirt has no bearing on their success. If the same mistakes are made, the same outcome will result.

I understand what you are getting at and your point is well taken.

The main difference I see is that installing a new dirt surface as opposed to another aw track is that the new dirt surface isn't "manufactured" by anybody.

I do agree with the oversight of the subcontractor to install it properly. But it was cushion tracks fault that caused the drainage issue.. they tried to tinker with a successful surface (at hollywood it has been) to try and prevent a problem with excessive heat in september and october, and it had an adverse effect in that it prevented proper drainage.

As far as the mandate issue, it's true that business deal with that all of the time. However, they are usually given a reasonable time frame to make the proper adjustments.

I'm not sticking up for Santa Anita, just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

BillW
02-26-2008, 12:17 AM
I understand what you are getting at and your point is well taken.

The main difference I see is that installing a new dirt surface as opposed to another aw track is that the new dirt surface isn't "manufactured" by anybody.

This is the point I'm getting at too. A dirt track is about as complicated as a synth track. Drainage, base layers etc. It's not a simple issue. You really have to know what you are doing in either case. (two examples that come to mind: CT Chute issues a few years ago after installing a new track, HOL turf track hosed for a whole meet also a few years back)

I do agree with the oversight of the subcontractor to install it properly. But it was cushion tracks fault that caused the drainage issue.. they tried to tinker with a successful surface (at hollywood it has been) to try and prevent a problem with excessive heat in september and october, and it had an adverse effect in that it prevented proper drainage.

No doubt SA mgmt. has reason to go after the installer, assuming they weren't complicit in the decisions that led to the problems.

As far as the mandate issue, it's true that business deal with that all of the time. However, they are usually given a reasonable time frame to make the proper adjustments.

I'm not sticking up for Santa Anita, just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

In most all cases I hate unnecessary gov't intervention, including this one. But given the fact that the mandate was in place, it is time for mgmt. to perform or take their lumps. :)

JPinMaryland
02-26-2008, 01:03 AM
Okay so what the hell happened to that Australian guy who was going to fix the drainage issue with the polytrack? That story was like a week old and now what are they saying...? Was he even given a chance?

PaceAdvantage
02-26-2008, 01:07 AM
I believe esteemed trainer Dick Mandella recently said, and I quote,

I think the man from Australia came and worked a miracle here.Seriously....those were his exact words.

Tom
02-26-2008, 07:32 AM
I thought the Aussie guy drowned on the backstretch? :D

Bruddah
02-26-2008, 09:24 AM
If they (SA) had originally spent the money on a good base, with a good drainage system and installed a dirt track over that, we would not have had this fiasco. I believe Bob Baffert and other trainers have come to the same conclusion.

I hope all the tracks spend good money, on the best foundations and drainage systems possible, and then go back to dirt. Maybe, with the exception of Turfway, this is the way to go. To solve Turfways problem, they need to reschedule some of their early meet. They start way too early in the year, for a "frost belt track". As always (JMHO).

TitanSooner
02-26-2008, 12:18 PM
If they (SA) had originally spent the money on a good base, with a good drainage system and installed a dirt track over that, we would not have had this fiasco. I believe Bob Baffert and other trainers have come to the same conclusion.

I hope all the tracks spend good money, on the best foundations and drainage systems possible, and then go back to dirt. Maybe, with the exception of Turfway, this is the way to go. To solve Turfways problem, they need to reschedule some of their early meet. They start way too early in the year, for a "frost belt track". As always (JMHO).
They couldn't "originally spend the money on a good base, with a good drainage system and install a dirt track over that"...

there was a Mandate to install synthetic.

Marshall Bennett
02-26-2008, 12:25 PM
So much for mandates . :cool:

TitanSooner
02-26-2008, 01:37 PM
So much for mandates . :cool:
LOL.. I said 'was' :cool:

andicap
02-26-2008, 02:05 PM
I'm confused. From the DRF article.

The surface underwent a five-day renovation in early February, with the addition of polymers and fibers from the Australian synthetic surface Pro-Ride. Santa Anita has had no cancellation since the renovation. Early Sunday, the surface successfully withstood approximately a half-inch of rain, Charles said. Racing went ahead with a nine-race program.

Sounds like Pro-Ride might have worked -- we won't know until there are more rains. So IF it did work, a big if, why the rush back to dirt? What a mess -- going from synthetic to dirt and back to synthetic on the same circuit. I guess they do it in Kentucky and it would be a boost to barns with horses that don't like the carpet.

The good news is i can't see any other tracks rushing to install poly until its manufacturers have ironed out all the kinks and figured out how different -- and sometimes extreme -- weather conditions affect the various types of artificial surfaces.
I mean they have a ton of rain here in the UK and no drainage problems, but they don't have the heat here that Del Mar had to deal with. Nor does it freeze like it does in Kentucky and Woodbine.

Bruddah
02-26-2008, 05:29 PM
They couldn't "originally spend the money on a good base, with a good drainage system and install a dirt track over that"...

there was a Mandate to install synthetic.

Actually, my point was, there wouldn't be a need for artificial (bogus) surfaces if tracks would spend the money for the best sub surfaces and drainage systems. Those tracks which have either privately opted for, or have been "legislated" to install the artificial surfaces seem to be the only tracks installing these expensive sub strate systems.

It only makes common sense for thoroughbred racing to install the best sub surface and drainage systems available. (Go the extra mile/ 8Furlongs) Whether the surface is, dirt, sand, concrete or artificial surfaces they won't work efficiently, unless there is proper drainage and sub strates. Duhhh! :bang:

In conclusion, there has been a rush to install these unproven surfaces. There have been no Engineering studies done. If so, where are they and who did them? All of the supposed benefits/ efficacies of these surfaces have been by mouth, from the manufacturers. What kind of Bull Sh*t due diligence is this? I am suprised that any of the idiots wanting and approving these surfaces still have their positions. I know they would have been fired long ago in any corporate boards, I have been involved with.

Robert Goren
02-26-2008, 07:21 PM
Exactly where is this track with a good dranage system with dirt over it? I do not believe it is possible. The last thing I ever want to see is a sealed track. There is nothing worse from a hadicapping point of veiw. It not only screws up the race, but also you have throw out that race when hadicapping the next. This means to any race that has a horse whose last race was on a sealed track is unbettable.

Bruddah
02-26-2008, 11:43 PM
I am unaware of any dirt tracks that have or will have the extensive, costly drainage systems the artificial surfaces have required. Seems to me, the artificial surfaces sure don't work with those super costly systems. So I say, my friend Robert, give "real dirt" the same drainage system, and NOW we can compare equitably. :ThmbUp: :D

robert99
02-27-2008, 07:22 AM
I am unaware of any dirt tracks that have or will have the extensive, costly drainage systems the artificial surfaces have required. Seems to me, the artificial surfaces sure don't work with those super costly systems. So I say, my friend Robert, give "real dirt" the same drainage system, and NOW we can compare equitably. :ThmbUp: :D

Whether dirt or turf, the original tracks had the drainage technology of the time. That mostly meant a basic agricultural field drainage system which worked fine close to where the pipes were located, but not distant to those pipes.
Those variations of moisture content give false ground which can and does injure horses from time to time.
(Trainers should not realistically expect horses already broken down on the dirt to be cured when running on synthetics.)
Real dirt has the further problem that it eventually blocks up those agricultural drainage pipes and you really have to eventually rip the track up.

A new track should put in the most modern and even draining system to avoid false ground, as the one-off cost of the drainage is tiny as compared to injuring the $multi-million horses that run on the tracks.

The synthetic tracks do work exceptionally well with modern drainage full coverage systems. Trainers with $multi-million horses insist on them on their training grounds. The engineering knowledge to design a track for all weathers - intense heat, rain or frost is there and proven. What has apparently happened at SA is the lack of knowledge of the client and contractors that the new surface is new and actually needs new knowledge and professional engineering which is readily available outside USA where they are two decades ahead. Boeing go further afield than trying to look up good old boys, Wilbur and Orville Wright.