Why I think TVG will fold first

[Suff]

I don't know anything about the TVG cable channel... I have AT&T Cable in Boston and they don't offer TVG.. I am strictly speaking about the TVG internet program.

I logged on today.. My account was $14.00 dollars light. They charge a per bet fee. I knew they Charged... I have problem with that but thats not my Main BEEF.

I had to go through and count each and every one of wagers to dertermine if they Charged me appropiattely. They have no way of telling you.. "this is what you wagered" this is what we charged" They just take the money. I called them about two months ago.. and said,, "hey.. even when I go out to eat.. the prices are on the menu" "But when I get my Bill.. it Itemizes what I ate and drank" so I know that I have been charged correctly. How come your system won't tell me the who, what where and when of what your charging me for. Why put the odus on me to go in and verify that you accounted correctly.

It is exactly the same with winning wagers. I call bets in from work... When I get home.. I log in and I get a Balance.. But they have no way of telling me what wagers won,, and what wagers Lost. I have to go in to the results.. Check the prices.. Total them up and then I Deduct the losing wagers to verify that I was paid correctly. Again I said to them on the telephone... "are you asking me to JUST TRUST you? I said.. this isn't a friendship.. Its a business relationship... And as such.. You are obligated to give me the information that I need. I need to know.. what you charged me... what you charged me for.. what wagers won and what wagers lost. Why am I spending time verifying all this?

Thier response over two months ago.. we are aware of these problems and we're are in the process of updating them. Yea Right!! You've been in business how long? They might be kidding themselves,, but they're not kidding me.

So why do I use them? One reason... they have the exclusive rights to LIVE NYRA VIDEO... the track I play 99% of the time. I need NYRA VIDEO.

The Nyra Video was not working two weeks ago.. I called them. I said "hey whats up? I need NYRA video.. thats what I pay for..I can wager on NY anywhere.. I don't need to pay you a Bet fee to play NY,,, I can play Ny without a Bet fee. Thier Response? "The video is free" FREE!! Oh yeah? It has costs associatted with it correct? and who pays those? Me! Correct? I pay with my takeout and bet fees. The video is the SOLE reason I use TVG.... If you don't have video... close the account.. we're done.


I have xpressbet.com account..... Say what you want.. they have NO MONTHLY or PER BET fees.. the itemize each winning and losing wager... they have Far more Live VIDEO options... On any given day TVG has between 3-5 tracks...xpressbet.com has 15-25 everyday... But not NYRA unfortunatley.


I'm of the opinion and the hope that a business run like TVG will go out of Business. They are so out of touch with thier customers needs.. They have a tremendous amount of customer arrogance. They're dishonest. They're unproffesional.

In my opinion.. if you can't tell a customer what you charged him and and what you paid him in the most basic ways.. then you have a MAJOR problem on your hands... A problem you need to address Immediattely. Not months or years.

If you think your offering anything FREE to a customer.. your out of touch. It's like the restaurant saying the Food costs.. but the Napkins are free. Everything is paid for by the customer.. the technology.. the Video.. the toilet paper in the Bathroom.. EVERYTHING!!

On top of that... all the politics get in the way... TVG cannot accept wagers on Gulfstream and Santa Anita... I have to have both accounts open.. with two windows of streaming video to play both tracks NY and GULF.. thats absurd.


I read a post somewhere not long ago.. I forget where... That the at HOME horseplayers need to start a NON-Profit orginization to deal with tracks and Bettting orginizations. They play games with each other and the customer pays. They have no "organized voice" to answer to.... So they can just keep on telling the little guy like me......."we are aware of the problem" and "we are working on it"....... When clearly they are not,,, and if they are.. it's certainly not the priority it should be.


I'm going to post this DRF.com.... I'm sending it to TVG.. and I am sending it to NYRA as well. I'm really ticked at TVG.

[cj]

Suggestion suff:

1) Get DishNetwork, TVG is free there, it is cheaper than cable(a little), and I'm sure you can get the local channels in Boston.

2) BrisBET, It is free, and you can see every bet you ever made along with the result. I can go back over 2 years and track my wagers. Plus, they have EVERY track on the menu.

Just how I do things, I'm sure there are other ways, but it works out nice.

CJ

[BillW]

suff,

Brisbet carries NYRA video. Today it's only at 56K. I'm not sure whether they are limited by rights or by facilities though.

They recently announced an upgrade to their video facilities ... I'll keep an eye on it .

Bill

[tanda]

Betting fees are ridiculous. They already receive a betting fee. It is called takeout and breakage. Also, the overhead to process bets over the internet is less that at the actual track. Yet, they charge a surcharge. B%llsh*t.

[sq764]

I used to really enjoy Brisbet, that is until my bank stopped letting me use my checkcard to deposit into my account..

But Brisbet found a way around that and utilized the ACH deposits from your bank account. So I am back with them..

I have never had an issue with them at all and they mail me withdrawal checks promptly, unlike those Youbet morons.

The only issue I have with Brisbet is that they still do not carry Balmoral park in Illinois.. Oh well.

Scott

[BillW]

Another thing I like about Bris .. when they were forced to charge $0.25 per bet by TVG (To acquire rights to TVG tracks) They went out and got corporate sponsers to cover the charge and no longer charge the customer. Although they are my only alternative, I have had no trouble at all and like their service.

Bill

[PaceAdvantage]

YouBet carries NYRA video...and they have a broadband feed....

[bdhsheets]

TVG isn't going anywhere. The brainchild of the NTRA will continue as long as they're close to breaking even. Don't be surprised if Magna doesn't swoop in and buy Youbet now that they've turned the corner.

As for the "bettors union": A noble idea that will never work. You'd need the power of DRF, BRISnet, ITS Data, TSN and other info providers to lead the charge, but they'll never do anything that'll hurt their own business i.e. a boycott of certain tracks, betting services etc.

'sheets

[JustRalph]

I think Sufferin is pointing out the TVG Paradox. If you only use them for video, its ok. But to wager with them is a different story. I tried it just on principle to support those who were providing my video. The wagering side sucked. I stopped after I blew the initial deposit. The video side is good, except when they try to be comedians and they delay T-bred races to show quarter horse races. I don't mind waiting on some of the Harness races when there are 2-3 harness tracks going and only one T-bred track. But " The Quarters" drives me nuts. The biggest reason I think they will go away eventually, and I do think they will go away, is they only have one channel. They need another feed on the Dishnetwork. They also need to spiff up a little and maybe act a little more like ESPN. They have tons of down time. They could give up the infomercials and maybe run some Horse racing related material. Maybe a handicapping workshop etc. You don't see Infomercials on ESPN. At least not many. I have a feeling they don't have enough of a budget to provide anymore than what they are doing right now. :cool:

[Schlagman]

Psst! Wanna know a secret? You can set up an account with TVG and watch all the video you want without ever funding the account - or just gave them a wager once in awhile if your conscience says to do it. Give them more business once they get their act together.

[cj]

Not if you are in Oklahoma. I can bet everywhere else, but they won't take our action anymore. Never really got an explanation why, just a check in the mailbox one day.

CJ

[BillW]

The initials Frank Stronach come to mind.

Last year in Tx we were locked out of LS right about the time of the sale. Something about the Atty. General ruling on intrastate wagering. But we are allowed access to RET and HOU, only LS is locked out. I'm assuming FS is using the state Gov't as a tool for competition (cheap labor).

[KyRacer]

How do these betting companies (BrisBet,YouBet,TVG,etc) make money? They take our bets, but isn't that money dumped into the track pools? The tracks then get the income from takeout and breakage, not the betting companies. My payoffs are the same from TVG as they are from the track. Do the tracks then kick back a fee to the companies taking the bets? Do they sell enough online products to make enough money to stay in business. Just wondering how they work.

KyRacer

[cj]

I'm pretty sure they get a % of the takeout from the tracks, but I wouldn't bet my grandmother on it.

CJ

[Rpd]

Cj,

Just curious, what would you bet your grandmother on?

[cj]

Originally posted by Rpd
Cj,

Just curious, what would you bet your grandmother on?

Tampa in the Super Bowl, so luckily I still have her! Just kidding of course, its a line from the movie "Let It Ride".

CJ

[Suff]

Different Tracks have different arrangements... On average... its about 3%.. that NYRA charges the simalcast outlets for sending the signal.. Might even be a point or two higher for the Larger tracks

So TVG pays NYRA 4% of its handle on NYRA tracks .. and they pocket the difference.. of the normal takeout... so its 12% Gross profit.. Plus the bet fees... and when you think about about it... IF I Play a $1.00 PIK3..... 1-1/2-1... thats $2.00 right.. Well the .25 cent bet fee... means I am paying an ADDITIONAL 12.5% handle on that bet.. ONTOP of the 15% takeout....

[cj]

Suff,

That's one reason, when I had TVG, why I never played any small tickets. Might seem petty, but I'm not paying $2.25 for a 2 bet. Didn't seem so bad paying $30.25 for a 30 bet.

CJ

[andicap]

TVG gets 5.5 % of every dollar bet into its Oregon hub. The company is about to become cash-flow break even. Still a ways to go, but at least it isn't burning cash anymore.

[BillW]

Are they doing it by increased cash flow or decreased expenses though? I have noticed they have cut some on-air personnel and cut back on "talking head" time.

[Suff]

Originally posted by andicap
TVG gets 5.5 % of every dollar bet into its Oregon hub. The company is about to become cash-flow break even. Still a ways to go, but at least it isn't burning cash anymore.


Tracks pay Much much less to NYRA to get the signal and accept wagers,, even though the pools are comingled... I'm not certain at all... I was just using standard Similcast figures in my post... You know for certain? or it's documented that they pay almost THRRE times for the signal than a Track pays ANDI?

I know Suffolk sells its signal for 3%...... New York is Maybe 5%...

But? TVG is paying 10% plus of its handle to New York? And TVG pays the same for all Signals? I know on Churchill downs Network they pay nothing right? Because that's who owns them correct?

[MikeDee]

Every company can decide the best way to charge for their services and the market place will award the good ones and punish the bad ones.

TVGs entire approach to racing is aimed at bringing in new customers to racing. For most of the serious handicapping world TVG is not a serious alternative. Time will tell if they if this business plan will work or not. I don't thinkit will survirve without changes. The idea of taking money out of your wagering account on a per wager basis is totaly unacceptable to most serious players. I don't argure with a charge for their services just find another way to fund it.

All of the internet video wagering schemes have the same basic problem. Video is low quality on the internet and watching races on a PC is a poor alternative to real time video. Besides I don't want to use my PC as a TV, I want to use my TV as a TV!

Magna is closer to what the hard core racing fan wants. Watch the races on real time TV (cable or dish) and bet via PC, phone or via your TV remote. If they can get a free racing channel on my cable service, then I will certainly use their wagering service. In my mind they will deserve it.

[andicap]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
Tracks pay Much much less to NYRA to get the signal and accept wagers,, even though the pools are comingled... I'm not certain at all... I was just using standard Similcast figures in my post... You know for certain? or it's documented that they pay almost THRRE times for the signal than a Track pays ANDI?

I know Suffolk sells its signal for 3%...... New York is Maybe 5%...

But? TVG is paying 10% plus of its handle to New York? And TVG pays the same for all Signals? I know on Churchill downs Network they pay nothing right? Because that's who owns them correct?

I am 100% certain. Check out Gemstar/TV Guide's financials. It's in there.

No, CD does not own TVG. Gemstar/TV Guide a partnership of News Corp. and Liberty media Corp. does.
The remainder of the takeout goes to the usual, purses, the state, etc. But the tracks consider this money over the transom, and are eager to get this business jump-started.
Gemstar has to make a living too you know.

The company is doing better because it is doing good business in California, and it has cut costs, largely on its production. They had very grandiose plans in the beginning to produce a lot of features to help educate the novice fan, but quickly realized this was too expensive and the hard-core person doesn't want to watch features. They realized they needed the hard-core fan so are catering to him more. When I watch at night, I see a lot of races -- they just go from race to race.
As for the 25 cents a wager, I agree that would sour me from using them too. But they are in partnership with You bet and could acquire them someday. So TVG is playing a few angles.
They're hanging on, but better get into more states, like New York, to survive.
The problem in NY is the NYRA-OTB dispute. It looks like Magna won't get his hands on OTB now, which would have killed TVG. But until the disposition of OTB is settled, you won't see TVG in NY.

[blind squirrel]

I know it's become "fashionable" TO RIP TVG.
I can assure you i've been with TVG since day
one[i'm in KY}.i've seen the evolution of their
highs{THE WORKS}to their lows{TODD SCHRUPP
wrestling JERRY LAWLER}.

There is no charge or fee to maintain a wagering account. A fee of $0.25 per wagering transaction, with a cap of $19.95 (or approximately 80 transactions) a month.

WILL I PAY 19.95 A MONTH FOR CD,DMR,KEE,SAR,FG?
YES.

[Suff]

I opened an account with "let it Ride" tonight? This is thier family of companies.

http://letitride.com
http://salesring.com
http://mmsalesring.com
http://trackexperts.com
http://watchandwager.com
http://kentdesormeaux.com
http://ulbrichspeerage.com


Anyone use them? It took 5 minutes and was very easy.. to easy... I opened it with 50 bucks (the minimum) and I wanted to try it out so I bet 20WP on the 7 in the finale at Penn National and a $10.00 exacta 7-4 and it ran 6--2-7......... I hope I am not rating myself out.. but Both TVG and Xpressbet.com will not take my credit card because I am in MAssachusetts.. So I have ACH with TVG (takes a day to hit) and I have to put money in at Suffolk downs for my xpressbet.com account... let it ride took my Credit card No problem... thats awesome... I think I heard CJ say something about tab america or American TAB... I seen there name on the WWW site.. Anyone know "Let it ride"... I'd like to feel comfortable doing business with these guys..

They do have a few funny programs... If you switch to thier Long Distance... 10% of your long distance bill gets credited to your horse account... lol now I've heard everything.

[socantra]

"I think I heard CJ say something about tab america or American TAB... I seen there name on the WWW site.. Anyone know "Let it ride"... I'd like to feel comfortable doing business with these guys.."

Can't hekp you with Let It Ride, but Anerica Tab is the liscenced betting agent for Brisbet, TSNBet, and Probably others. I've had no trouble and haven't heard anything bad about them.

RLB....

[BillW]

Suff,

I also use Brisbet (America TAB) and have been with them for a year now. The web site seems to work OK ... not a whole lot of down time and the betting interface works. They have video and cover most tracks. The account record keeping section is also OK. They do accept ACH bank transfer, as of this month.

This month they are offering a $100 rebate on the first $100 wagered. Don't know about the "hidden" conditions (you'll have to check that out) but if they are acceptable, it may be worth your while to pick up the $100 and try them out.

Bill

PS: Not sure they're legal in MA

[Tom]

Originally posted by Sufferindowns
I opened an account with "let it Ride" tonight? This is thier family of companies.

They do have a few funny programs... If you switch to thier Long Distance... 10% of your long distance bill gets credited to your horse account... lol now I've heard everything.

I can see the next commercail now.....the gate opens, 10 horses thunder out onto the track, they race to the turn and a jockey on the leader throws down his whip, pulls out a cell phone and yells into it, "Can you hear me know?"

[andicap]

Originally posted by Tom
I can see the next commercail now.....the gate opens, 10 horses thunder out onto the track, they race to the turn and a jockey on the leader throws down his whip, pulls out a cell phone and yells into it, "Can you hear me know?"

Tom, that's a great ad!!:D

Of course those morons at the NTRA/racetrack would never think of doing something ilke that.

[Tom]

NTRA cannot use that idea any more- I just sold it to a proctologist! Think about it.

[Suff]

Pretty Funny........ I've been using them for a couple of days... Fairly easy.... Acccess quickly to all my Info... Betting history..et al.. They do itemize everything Unlike TVG.. No bet fee..... they take all the tracks... Could'nt be happier...... Of course the big test is when I want to take money out.....see how easy that is?

We got HAMMERED with snow... in Boston.. 10-12 inches... I think NY got it pretty bad too... Supposed to be 30ish tommorrow... Not sure if they'll run... If I had to hunch... It stopped snowing in NY around 4PM.... SO I'd think they'll be ready.

What a winter.......

[Kappa]

Nobody mentioned Phila Park's 'Phone Bet'. Good service, takes credit cards over the phone, daily recap of all bets, and, oh year, prompt payouts!

You even get a small (really, really small) rebate on your betting action as a betting voucher added to your account.

[ponyplayer]

Suff,
I have been using UBET.COM and have no complaints. I'm on the West Coast and have been playing East Coast tracks because of UBET (and making a few bucks thanks to you). Good video, good accounting, they take Cash, Credit Card, or ATM. I have been with UBET about a year, tried TVG and Magna, didn't care for them. UBET implemented a nominal charge for the video, but the charge is waived if a very reasonable dollar amount is bet per month. I just received an e-mail informing me that I qualified for the entire year free, and I am not a big bettor...:cool:

[fastCow]

A while back there was a failure with one of the simulcast hubs. Youbet did not honor their customers' wagers, but TVG paid off winning bets out of their own pockets. Ever since that happened, I do not resent small fees.

It is Xpressbet that needs to get their act together. They have a very slow website with unreliable servers.

[levinmpa]

I can't imagine paying a fee to place a wager. Are you kidding me? There are so many betting outlets out there that will let you open an account and wager without any fees of any kind. I wager with Phonebet.com and Pinnacle and have never paid them a cent to make a wager. Paying a fee, no matter how small or large, capped or not is an obsurd policy. I don't know how they keep any customers.

[mhrussell]

...when will BrisBET ever be offered in California??
If any of you guys hear rumblings, please post it. I keep checking with them and nothing has changed. Its a state of CA issue, not BRIS.

I would switch to them in an instant. I am getting sick of TVG too for all the reasons cited. And their new "Rewards" program is a joke.

[fastCow]

I can't imagine paying a fee to place a wager. Are you kidding me? There are so many betting outlets out there that will let you open an account and wager without any fees of any kind. I wager with Phonebet.com and Pinnacle and have never paid them a cent to make a wager. Paying a fee, no matter how small or large, capped or not is an obsurd policy. I don't know how they keep any customers.


I used to wager with phoneBet. I really liked them. But they can no longer accept wagers from California.

My point is that if you make a substantial winning wager, and there is a hub failure, whatever you gained by saving on fees would not make up for what you lost by the betting service telling you "tough luck the bet did not go in." :mad:

TVG paid out of their own pockets. I think that reliability is worth a lot. :jump: :jump:

[ezpace]

1. Bet with Jake the Irishman @ the Bar

2.Bet with Pinnacle

3 Let's Killem!!! ;)

[kev]

I was with TVG from day one also, when it was called ODS, so I don't pay anything I was one of their first to try it out. It was great when ODS had it, they showed race after race no talking and they had SA and GP back then. I still use TVG and you can track your wagers I do it all the time.