New woes for Santa Anita

[so.cal.fan]

The new stuff is breaking apart.
Looks like Santa Anita got fleeced by the Aussie who sold them the ProRide stuff.
Looks like we'll lose more days of racing at the former Great Race Place.
:mad: :bang: :mad:

[46zilzal]

More great rubber odor ahead.

[so.cal.fan]

Why can't they just admit they were wrong? Why?
California racing is going to be destroyed if this keeps up.
All these synthetic tracks DON'T work, they are either fatally flawed or they wear out.
It doesn't work! :mad:

[46zilzal]

Why can't they just admit they were wrong? Why?
California racing is going to be destroyed if this keeps up.
All these synthetic tracks DON'T work, they are either fatally flawed or they wear out.
It doesn't work!
Some serious money must have changed hands higher up to keep on going with such a flawed idea, but then government does it all the time no matter the reality.

[Tom]

This just in....Santa Anita has purchased the Brooklyn Bridge from a rep who was at thier track today.

They are rumored to be interested in some land in Florida as well.





:lol::lol::lol:

[phatbastard]

in light of latest breakdown of artificial track.....

santa anita will be awarded 2010 breeders cup........

[Bruddah]

The new stuff is breaking apart.
Looks like Santa Anita got fleeced by the Aussie who sold them the ProRide stuff.
Looks like we'll lose more days of racing at the former Great Race Place.
:mad: :bang: :mad:

I know how close you and your husband have been to So. Cal racing. I have said from the very begining that artificial surfaces would result in the demise of this sport. Rather than doing anything to bring in new fans/ handicappers, it would drive away the loyal fan base.

I know, I know, the same old song that it's better for horses. I can't, and won't believe it, with all the kick back dust/ chemicals being inhaled by both man and beast.

Eventually, it will be like Paul Harvey says, "and NOW for the rest of the story". :ThmbDown:

[NoCal Boy]

Where is this information coming from that the track is tearing apart?

[Kelso]

in light of latest breakdown of artificial track.....

santa anita will be awarded 2010 breeders cup........

:lol:

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Marshall Bennett]

Should go back to dirt till they get their shit together , at least they'd finish out the meet . :cool:

[JustRalph]

Where is this information coming from that the track is tearing apart?

just somebody with 40 years of service at Santa Anita.............you can ignore it..........

[NoCal Boy]

I am not ignoring it at all, but would love to see an article talking about it.

[Burls]

Why can't they just admit they were wrong? Why?
California racing is going to be destroyed if this keeps up.
All these synthetic tracks DON'T work, they are either fatally flawed or they wear out.
It doesn't work! :mad:

From what I understand, Golden Gate was getting just as much rain as Santa Anita. But racing at Golden Gate wasn't cancelled a single day. Maybe Tapeta is the way to go here.

[Southieboy]

rain in the forecast according to msn :eek:

[JustRalph]

This happens a couple of more times..........maybe some trainers will start screaming louder. These look like some good horses that left California

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2008/February/10/Zayat-removes-horses-from-Bafferts-barn.aspx

Zayat removes horses from Baffert’s barn; Maimonides to Mott

by Steve Schuelein and Jeff Lowe

Ahmed Zayat has removed his horses from training in Southern California, transferring them from the barn of Bob Baffert to Steve Asmussen, Bill Mott, and Dale Romans.

Baffert trained six horses for Zayat, including Grade 3 winner Massive Drama and promising three-year-olds J Be K and Maimonides. Massive Drama finished third in the San Vicente Stakes (G2) on Sunday at Santa Anita Park.

Baffert and Zayat’s racing manager, Sobhy Sonbol, said issues with the synthetic surfaces in place at Southern California three major tracks led to the decision.

“He got frustrated with the track [surface] situation,” Baffert said. Santa Anita has canceled 11 days of racing because of problems with its all-weather synthetic surface.

Baffert shipped Maimonides and J Be K to Saratoga Race Course for their debut victories last summer when he and Zayat were concerned with the consistency of Del Mar’s Polytrack surface between morning workouts and afternoon racing.

In that same period, Zayat also removed eventual Grade 3 winner Z Fortune from Neil Drysdale in California and transferred him to Asmussen.

[David-LV]

From what I understand, Golden Gate was getting just as much rain as Santa Anita. But racing at Golden Gate wasn't cancelled a single day. Maybe Tapeta is the way to go here.
From what I understand Santa Anita had only 4 cancellations in 30 years before they put in this synthetic garbage.

Maybe it is time for them to admit their mistake and get back to real horse racing on natural DIRT surface.

_________
David

[cj]

From what I understand Santa Anita had only 4 cancellations in 30 years before they put in this synthetic junk.

Maybe it is time for them to admit their mistake and get back to real horse racing on natural DIRT surface.

_________
David

Didn't the racing board mandate fake dirt? You can't totally blame SA, just as it isn't there decision alone to go back.

[David-LV]

Didn't the racing board mandate fake dirt? You can't totally blame SA, just as it isn't there decision alone to go back.
Judging what has gone on in California the CHRB does not have a leg to stand on.

What if Santa Anita just said we are going to put the dirt back like it or not?

What is the CHRB going to do, close Santa Anita, I don't think so.

Bay Meadows stood up to them and they are racing on dirt.
______
David

[David-LV]

I know, I know, the same old song that it's better for horses. I can't, and won't believe it, with all the kick back dust/ chemicals being inhaled by both man and beast.

Eventually, it will be like Paul Harvey says, "and NOW for the rest of the story". :ThmbDown:

I could not agree more with your above quote.

The eventually, it will be like Paul Harvey says, "and NOW for the rest of the story" is already upon us.

_________
David

[DanG]

Let’s assign “blame” where it belongs imo.

Either SA management and / or the Cushion track manufacturer depending upon which way the litigation goes.

Act like adults once it was discovered it wouldn’t drain and bite the bullet. Don’t bring in what could very well be stop-gap measures. Set a reasonable time table / shift racing to another venue temporally and fix the damn thing right! :mad:

Interview with the Pro-ride rep who naturally “sounds confident”, :rolleyes: but also stated this weeks ago…

“At the end of the day, we’re trying to work with a very, very damaged product.”

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=43501

[NoCal Boy]

here is an article on the track issues from the LA Times today:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/horseracing/la-sp-horse14feb14,1,1934150.story

[so.cal.fan]

STATE OF CALIFORNIA
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, GOVERNOR
CALIFORNIA HORSE RACING BOARD
1010 HURLEY WAY, SUITE 300
SACRAMENTO, CA 95825
(916) 263-6000
FAX (916) 263-6042
NOTICE OF SPECIAL PURPOSE MEETING
Notice is hereby given that a meeting of the California Horse Racing Board will be held on Wednesday, February 20, 2008, commencing at 9:30 a.m., in the Baldwin Terrace Room at the Santa Anita Race Track, 285 West Huntington Drive, Arcadia, California. The meeting will open at 9:30 a.m., then the Board will adjourn into Closed Session with the regular meeting commencing at approximately 10:00 a.m.
The agenda for the special purpose meeting will consist of the following matters:
Agenda Items:
1.
Discussion regarding race track surfaces in California.
2.
Discussion of Bagley-Keene Open Meeting Act requirements, with particular focus on discussion in board meetings by members of the public and board members of issues not agendized but raised under meeting “public comment” item.
3.
Public Comment: Communications, reports, requests for future actions of the Board. Note: Persons addressing the Board under this item will be restricted to three (3) minutes for their presentation.
4.
Closed Session: The Board may convene a Closed Session to confer with and receive advice form its legal counsel regarding the pending litigation described in the attachment to this notice captioned “Pending Litigation,” as authorized by Government Code section 1126(e).
Additional information regarding this meeting may be obtained from the CHRB Administrative Office, 1010 Hurley Way, Suite 300, Sacramento, CA 95825; telephone (916) 263-6000; fax (916) 263-6042. This notice is located on the CHRB website at www.chrb.ca.gov. *Information for requesting disability related accommodation for persons with a disability who require aid or services in order to participate in this public meeting, should contact Jacqueline Wagner.
CALIFORNIA HORSE RACING BOARD
Richard B. Shapiro, Chairman
John C. Harris, Vice Chairman
John W. Amerman, Member
John Andreini, Member
Jesse H. Choper, Member
Marie G. Moretti, Member
Jerry Moss, Member
Richard Bon Smith, Acting Executive Director
Date of Notice: February 8, 2008

[so.cal.fan]

They have horses on the main track....as of this morning.
We did have a little rain.
I'm thinking they will be racing this afternoon.
There was a very ugly breakdown yesterday in the stretch.
There is a serious problem.
Hopefully, the CHRB will take steps to correct the damage done to Calif. racing in regards to these tracks.
By the way, no.cal.boy....they have had several horses go bad on that synthetic up there.
Synthetic surfaces used everyday, for training and racing WEAR OUT.
Why can't they just admit they were wrong?

[sally]

Judging what has gone on in California the CHRB does not have a leg to stand on.

What if Santa Anita just said we are going to put the dirt back like it or not?

What is the CHRB going to do, close Santa Anita, I don't think so.

Bay Meadows stood up to them and they are racing on dirt.
______
David

We recently voted on some propositions that favored the Indian Casinos--ie. NO slots allowed at race tracks -- so I wouldn't be surprised if Bay Meadows is sold for development-- (just my guess)

[so.cal.fan]

I think it Bay Meadows is already been sold for development. So is Hollywood Park.
However, you bring up an interesting point.
I wonder if certain factions actually are trying to bury California horseracing?

[how cliche]

Bay Meadows is only allowed to put on natural dirt racing because she's in her final meeting and therefore is granted a stay on the mandatory rubber rule.:(


Fwiw, & I realize there are tons of haters. Frank Stronach has been against installing synthetics at SA from the beginning. His p.o.v has always been: If the company were to spend $10 million on a natural dirt surface it would be safer than the rubber, but by law he's not allowed to. It's his money, but he must obey the law. Now everyone has buyer's remorse. Thanks a bunch gubment.

[DanG]

I’m pretty sure we will all agree that zero injuries is completely impossible.

In reading these threads one would think with the SA issues being front and center the rate of injuries are far greater on synthetic tracks and nation wide handles must have suffered because so many “hate them.”

Well; the handles have not suffered with most increasing and so far in 2008… (The unscientific data of animals beaten 50 lengths or more. Yes this includes the occasional equipment failures that were conveniently listed during GG’s run of miss-fortune. If anyone would like to go through the 446 examples on dirt; or the 47 on Artf…be my guest.)



Dirt: 27,629 / 446 = 2%
Artf: 5,090 / 47 = 1%
Sift through all of the emotional statements and the rate of a horse “failing to compete” is still at roughly a 2/1 ratio.

Still looking forward to re-visiting these threads in 5 years to sift through the fallout. In the end however, I think we are all looking for similar results.

BTW: Yes…I agree 900% that breeding and drugs must absolutely be scrutinized; but I just don’t have faith in it being addressed in anything resembling a timely manner.

[sally]

I thought I'd heard that they wanted to sell Hollywood Park, but racing has been pretty successful there lately hasn't it? I thought they might stick with it...

[Doc]

I almost fell over when I read that the Breeders' Cup was going back to Santa Anita next year. Personally, I have my doubts whether the track can get their act together and be able to present the Breeders' Cup THIS year.

Doc

[Marshall Bennett]

You would hope they might bend the rules and allow a dirt track for the Breeder's Cup . I'd hate to see issues with this synthetic nonsence during racing's biggest day . :cool:

[kenwoodallpromos]

From what I understand, Golden Gate was getting just as much rain as Santa Anita. But racing at Golden Gate wasn't cancelled a single day. Maybe Tapeta is the way to go here.
"a total of 4,002 starters died as a result of catastrophic injuries sustained in racing on the new Tapeta surface in the meet that ran from November 7 to February 3."

[DanG]

"a total of 4,002 starters died as a result of catastrophic injuries sustained in racing on the new Tapeta surface in the meet that ran from November 7 to February 3."
Now please Ken…

Can we return to this solar system?

You could have a lunatic in the grandstand with a rifle and not get that 4,000+ body count.

[toetoe]

Well, God bless the trainers, but they're the fools that swallowed this whole thing. Some of the Euros want to run exclusively on Astrodirt. The one little benefit to this boondoggle was greater field size. Now that seems iffy. :confused:

I daresay more than four days were lost in the days of real dirt. The track washed away at least once, and I'm sure the meeting was curtailed at least once. I refuse to use that to strengthen my argument.

I may steal that title for my new screen name. Lunatic in the Grandstand. YES !! :jump:

[rokitman]

Now please Ken…

Can we return to this solar system?

You could have a lunatic in the grandstand with a rifle and not get that 4,000+ body count.
If I remember correctly, that was just an estimate, with a margin of error of +/- 3995.

[DanG]

If I remember correctly, that was just an estimate, with a margin of error of +/- 3995.
LOL! :D

Typo I’m sure or as my x-brother in law the IT guys calls them…’Fat Finger.

Jeez I woke up on the wrong side of the stall today. This whole SA mess has me snapping at everyone. :ThmbDown:

I sincerely apologize for my tone except to the person who is my 1st entry on the infamous…’ignore list. :jump:

[Kelso]

I wonder if certain factions actually are trying to bury California horseracing?

If they are, they're probably kin to the idiots running things on the Jersey side.

[Indulto]

I almost fell over when I read that the Breeders' Cup was going back to Santa Anita next year. Personally, I have my doubts whether the track can get their act together and be able to present the Breeders' Cup THIS year.

DocDoc,
My first thought when reading about BTB BCs at SA was that they were going to use it to justify a waver to restore the dirt track. If they apply for it and don't get it, I expect there will be a lawsuit and Shapiro will be replaced. Note the fanfare of Moss's being re-appointed considering his abstention from the synthetic mandate vote.

On the other hand, the BC at SA is run by Oak Tree, not Frank who would actually be doing the sueing. ;)

[Southieboy]

The only thing he wants is a natural dirt surface, not artificial surfaces. He hates 'em.

[rrbauer]

"It’s my life out there. I’m not a test pilot."

Garrett Gomez on refusing to ride after the fifth race on Wednesday because the track had become too "hard". (A six-furlong claiming race earlier had been run in seven and change and there was a fatal breakdown in another race.)

[PaceAdvantage]

"It’s my life out there. I’m not a test pilot."

Garrett Gomez on refusing to ride after the fifth race on Wednesday because the track had become too "hard". (A six-furlong claiming race earlier had been run in seven and change and there was a fatal breakdown in another race.)How far are they willing to push this thing? Quite frankly, I'm amazed at all the shit NYRA has had to take over a few corrupt IRS tellers, yet this fiasco seems to have not one villain we can point the finger at....everyone is blameless?

It's all just one grand experiment....I wonder who is making the most money off of these artificial surfaces. Who is pushing so hard for them to be adopted industry wide? When is the industry going to push back?

[Bobzilla]

I read in the DRF the other day that the NYRA is now free to start dabbling themselves with the grand experiment. Hayward was quoted as saying they will call together some meetings with horseman and owners sometime soon to get their opinions on a possible synthetic installation on Aqueduct's main track. Ironically the same surface the KY Derby prep Wood Memorial is conducted on. Player input wasn't considered for any of these meetings, or at least not mentioned. As part of the recent agreement between the NYRA and the state of New York, the NYRA has to meet certain benchmarks in order to keep the franchise. If they are not able to meet those benchmarks then it's possible they will lose the franchise, unless they can prove they made every reasonable effort to meet the benchmark. With one of the benchmarks being equine and rider safety, I wouldn't at all be surprised if the NYRA will now consider synthetic installation, if for no other reason then being able to say in five years, "We took every reasonable step to improve equine well-being", as a game plan to ward off the opportunistic leaches in Albany.

[Bobzilla]

If New York is serious about experimenting with the All-Weather surfaces, I would have hoped they would consider the Oklahoma training track in Saratoga first.

[so.cal.fan]

They should experiment on the training tracks.
Had they done that in California, we would have had a lot less grief.
The Santa Anita track with the ProRide stuff seems to be draining, and water actually helped the track, they will have to keep this surface watered.
The problem is still going to be wear. These artificial surfaces wear down with constant racing and training.
Please lobby your officials not to make a hasty decision like they did here in Calif.

[so.cal.fan]

CHRB Sets Forum On Synthetic Tracks
by Jack Shinar
Date Posted: 2/15/2008 7:07:44 PM
Last Updated: 2/16/2008 9:49:13 AM

The California Horse Racing Board has scheduled a special forum to discuss synthetic track surfaces Feb. 20 at Santa Anita Park.

As many as 38 panelists from all segments of the horse-racing industry are invited to take part in the comprehensive discussion, including racing secretaries, trainers, jockeys, manufacturers and experts in synthetic surfaces, veterinarians and researchers, track maintenance experts, racehorse owners, and racetrack association executives.

The special meeting is to begin at approximately 10 a.m. in the Baldwin Terrace Room and will be webcast through a link on the CHRB Web site, www.chrb.ca.gov.

“We have scheduled this special meeting in part to review our track surfaces,” said CHRB Chairman Richard B. Shapiro.

It comes after Santa Anita lost 11 days of racing over the past several weeks due to problems with its newly installed Cushion Track. The surface was altered to allow improved drainage Feb. 3-8, and the track has returned to its regular schedule.

“Clearly, with the situation that has developed at Santa Anita, and much that has been written about the board’s mandate, it seems logical and appropriate to pause and see where we are today, what we know today, and what we should be looking for or doing differently in the future,” Shapiro said. “The meeting is to review where we are, identify concerns, discuss solutions, get the facts to date, improve communications, and create collaborative efforts."

Four engineered surfaces have been installed at California racetracks since the board issued a mandate requiring synthetic tracks at all venues operating four or more weeks of continuous Thoroughbred racing.

[Bobzilla]

This forum to be held on 2/20 sounds like a very good idea, one that is probably long overdue. Does anyone else notice, and take exception to, the one glaring ommision on the list of invitees? Who the hell represents the interests of the fans and horseplayers in this industry? Who is our advocate? Who is our voice? I don't care what a player's position is on AWSs as long as long as some of us are being heard and and our position's considered when important decisions are being made. A united front we're not on the issue of synthetic surfaces, just read the threads on this board on the topic, but horsemen and owners are not united on this topic as well. I only wish the input from horseplayers could be considered more often when forums such as the one to be held this week at SA take place.

[Marshall Bennett]

The racetracks in New York are fine the way they are . They don't need to be experimenting with anything !!

[46zilzal]

I read in the DRF the other day that the NYRA is now free to start dabbling themselves with the grand experiment. Hayward was quoted as saying they will call together some meetings with horseman and owners sometime soon to get their opinions on a possible synthetic installation on Aqueduct's main track.
My favorite track DOWN THE DRAIN? Say it isn't so!

[DanG]

The racetracks in New York are fine the way they are . They don't need to be experimenting with anything !!
Yeah OK…:rolleyes:

The only thing Aqu-main track’s missing is a minefield.

[Bobzilla]

I apologize for not being sure how to put the link to the article on my post. But if you go to the DRF website and click on More News, scroll down and you'll find the article by David Grening titled "Hayward can take a long look" or something like that, dated 2/16.

The Aqueduct Main has had drainage issues in past years, causing some cancellations. Not that SA's version of Cushion track has not. I think of all of NYRA's tracks, the Aq Main is the one in need of the most fortification. This is why they would possibly consider this one to become their first AWS.

As a full time NY player, I would have mixed feelings, perhaps mostly negative, as I still feel strongly dirt tracks can be made to be kinder to the animals. My hunch is that over time, NYRA will cave to pressures from those powerful forces within the racing industry, as well as their own state government, and ultimately go the way of California.

[Tom]

I thought the inner tracks WAS the answer to having and all weather track?

When was the las timt eh the main tracks was re-installed? It was good enough for decades, for champions to race over.

Poly? Poly? We don't need no steenking poly!

[alysheba88]

Yeah OK…:rolleyes:

The only thing Aqu-main track’s missing is a minefield.

Do you think it is unsafe? Do you have #'s backing that up?

[DanG]

Do you think it is unsafe? Do you have #'s backing that up?
You live in New York don’t you 88?

You don’t remember severe issues with the Aqu-main track the past several years?

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=2655878

John Passero, the director of racing surfaces for the NYRA, said the fact the main track is clay-based creates problems, especially when the surface gets wet. "The cushion needs to stay together and stay in place, and it just will not," Passero said. "When the rain gets into it, it starts to - and the word I'll use for you is - deteriorate."

Passero said over the years that the clay base has migrated into the cushion, "and it's changed the properties and the way it reacts. It's all in the way it reacts," he said. "I think this is a huge issue. The material has to be the type of material that will hold together when it's wet, and this does not hold together. That's the bottom line."

[PaceAdvantage]

The Aqueduct main track, for the longest time, was considered by horsemen to be one of the BEST surfaces in North America, if my memory serves me correctly.

If things have gone down hill in the last year or two, I would have to chalk this up to the fact that NYRA ran out of money.

Now that their financial picture is becoming clearer, it might be wiser to attempt to bring the main track back to its former glory, instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water.....

[DanG]

The Aqueduct main track, for the longest time, was considered by horsemen to be one of the BEST surfaces in North America, if my memory serves me correctly.

If things have gone down hill in the last year or two, I would have to chalk this up to the fact that NYRA ran out of money.

Now that their financial picture is becoming clearer, it might be wiser to attempt to bring the main track back to its former glory, instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water.....
I didn’t advocate they go synthetic. I was asked if I had evidence to back up its recent issues.

[Marshall Bennett]

Theres nothing wrong with the main track at Aqueduct . All tracks have issues now and then and they are corrected accordingly , unlike synthetics , where
so called " experts " stand around for days on end scratching their butts wondering what to try next .

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn’t advocate they go synthetic. I was asked if I had evidence to back up its recent issues.I didn't say you were, but recent comments from others indicate they (NYRA) may be barking up that tree.

[DanG]

Theres nothing wrong with the main track at Aqueduct . All tracks have issues now and then and they are corrected accordingly , unlike synthetics , where
so called " experts " stand around for days on end scratching their butts wondering what to try next .
Yeah…like this one… :rolleyes: that was actually installed correctly.

Although they admit to screwing up the maintenance during a short period where they had issues…which of course was reported here immediately. Never let the facts get in the way of a hard held agenda.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/92314.html

"Trainers offered virtually universal praise for the surface throughout the meeting, and they were particularly pleased with the way it held up during the heavy rains that have hit California this winter".

[DanG]

I didn't say you were, but recent comments from others indicate they (NYRA) may be barking up that tree.
Mike,

I honestly hope they don’t. (Other than their training tracks) Again; I realize I’m in the minority here, but I like having the differential on both coasts.

[alysheba88]

I didn’t advocate they go synthetic. I was asked if I had evidence to back up its recent issues.

No, I dont live in NY.

And have not seen evidence yet from your posts

If its a minefield I would assume you are saying its unsafe. If you didnt mean it was unsafe then sorry. If you did, do you have #'s showing its unsafe?

The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is people (on both sides) talk out of emotion and not based on any actual #'s.

I know the industry doesnt make track by track study easy to do (which is a big problem). But if people are going to say a track is or is not "safe" they should have some kind of hard numbers. And not one year either. Numbers that are apples to apples. That look at breakdowns, deaths, etc.

Aqueduct has had both of course- just like all tracks.

[DanG]

And have not seen evidence yet from your posts

If its a minefield I would assume you are saying its unsafe. If you didnt mean it was unsafe then sorry. If you did, do you have #'s showing its unsafe?

With all due respect '88 I just realized why I told myself not to get involved in these threads. Incredibly time consuming and they never resolve a damn thing.

You asked what evidence I had and I posted an article I found in 3 seconds on some issues Aqu-main track has developed over the years. The “minefield” barp was pure hyperbole just like the many threads of “The Killing fields” etc that have dominated this forum.

I’m going to try and stick to my original plan and stay out of these threads because life is too short to ride this merry-go-round.

[alysheba88]

With all due respect '88 I just realized why I told myself not to get involved in these threads. Incredibly time consuming and they never resolve a damn thing.

You asked what evidence I had and I posted an article I found in 3 seconds on some issues Aqu-main track has developed over the years. The “minefield” barp was pure hyperbole just like the many threads of “The Killing fields” etc that have dominated this forum.

I’m going to try and stick to my original plan and stay out of these threads because life is too short to ride this merry-go-round.

Dan, because someone asks for some kind of facts you take your ball and go home? You think racing will ever solve its problems if even its fans take that approach? We arent supposed to ever question each other? Like I said this issue brings out much emotion on all side, and it would be better addressed if people thought more about the issue instead of throwing out stuff.

I have not called you any names. Believe we are having a civil discussion

As far as that link the very first sentence talks about how AQU has been known to have a safe surface. Also mentioned the money issues were preventing resurfacing. Am assuming thats not an issue. Bottom line is AQU does not need a synthetic surface to have a safe surface. They have had a safe surface

[DanG]

Dan, because someone asks for some kind of facts you take your ball and go home? You think racing will ever solve its problems if even its fans take that approach? We arent supposed to ever question each other? Like I said this issue brings out much emotion on all side, and it would be better addressed if people thought more about the issue instead of throwing out stuff.

I have not called you any names. Believe we are having a civil discussion

Absolutely the truth Alysheba and I apologize.

As far as “just throwing things out” for the sake of doing it I feel I’ve done more due diligence than most, but I’m sure everyone feels that way.

It’s no reflection on anything you said at all. This is frustration from my perspective in reading and participated in a few too many threads on this topic to be honest. I feel like I’m hearing such similar arguments on both sides over and over (myself included) I feel like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. :eek:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/groundhog-day-clock.jpg

[NoDayJob]

Next thing ya know, Southern California racing will move to the La Brea tar pits.

[DanG]

Next thing ya know, Southern California racing will move to the La Brea tar pits.
I thought our most recent Breeders Cup did? ;)

[Tom]

You're going to regret posting that, Dan! :lol:;)


HEY! NDJ.....where ya been?
Welcome home.

[DanG]

You're going to regret posting that, Dan! :lol:;)

I know your right Tom. Mike needs to allow more of a “cooling off period” to edit these posts! Like about 3 years! :D

[toetoe]

Tar-Pit-a is installed at Golden Gate Fields. :bang:

[chickenhead]

This is frustration from my perspective in reading and participated in a few too many threads on this topic to be honest. I feel like I’m hearing such similar arguments on both sides over and over (myself included) I feel like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. :eek:

I don't know why, but if there is one thing I've noticed about myself and others on this forum, is certain topics just prove irresistible. Even if you come to despise the topic, and convince yourself that you no longer will talk about it again, ever..it beckons like a siren song...

[DanG]

I don't know why, but if there is one thing I've noticed about myself and others on this forum, is certain topics just prove irresistible. Even if you come to despise the topic, and convince yourself that you no longer will talk about it again, ever..it beckons like a siren song...
There it is Chick and the perfect image to sum it up.

My x says I would debate a stop-sign and I know she’s right. :blush:

[classhandicapper]

Yeah…like this one… :rolleyes: that was actually installed correctly.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/92314.html


Dan,

I think the idea that the problems at SA occurred because the surface wasn't installed properly is misleading. It implies that if it was done the way it was supposed to they wouldn't have any problems.

The reality was that SA had some unique weather concerns that were different from Del Mar, Hollywood, and GG. So they chose the surface they chose and installed it in a way they were told would deal with those concerns. Had they installed it "correctly" (as in the way Hollywood installed Cushion) it would have failed for other reasons.

I think it's time to at least admit that ramming something down the throat of a management that didn't want to make the change before people actually knew WTF they were even doing was a retarded decision to make for a premier track in the US, not to mention, anti-free market.

[Kelso]

I wouldn't at all be surprised if the NYRA will now consider synthetic installation, if for no other reason then being able to say in five years, "We took every reasonable step to improve equine well-being", as a game plan to ward off the opportunistic leaches in Albany.


But if they don't do a considerably better job of researching and testing the idea, they could wind up simply paying for the rope for their own hanging. In light of the California scandal ... and that's truly what it is ... doing nothing could be the much more prudent tack.

[David-LV]

I don't know why, but if there is one thing I've noticed about myself and others on this forum, is certain topics just prove irresistible. Even if you come to despise the topic, and convince yourself that you no longer will talk about it again, ever..it beckons like a siren song...


Irresistible, Wasn't that a movie Dan G.

_______
David

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21Q6T11DRNL._AA115_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Irresistible-Original-Picture-Soundtrack/dp/B00000HZOT/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1203303936&sr=1-2)

[DanG]

Irresistible, Wasn't that a movie Dan G.
_______
David

Geez David;

I saw your name in the thread and I’m bracing for something high and tight and you throw the Eephus pitch!!! :jump:

Hope your weekend went well my friend. Its burn the midnight oil time with Fort Knox waiting in Arcadia. Let’s hope we all have a fair shot Monday and no one is betting after the 4th leg…

Single - Single - Single - Single – All - All :eek: :faint:

[David-LV]

Geez David;

I saw your name in the thread and I’m bracing for something high and tight and you throw the Eephus pitch!!! :jump:

Hope your weekend went well my friend. Its burn the midnight oil time with Fort Knox waiting in Arcadia. Let’s hope we all have a fair shot Monday and no one is betting after the 4th leg…

Single - Single - Single - Single – All - All :eek: :faint:

Thanks Dan, Not a very good weekend that was spent at local hospital getting a heart procedure done.

I think it is time for all of us to accept what is going on in racing because no matter what side we are on we really can only talk about it.

Judging by who the CHRB put together for the Feb. 20 meeting on synthetic surfaces us horseplayers have ZERO voice.

Now I'm going to start working on tomorrow's Santa Anita pick 6 carryover.:)

BTW: Like you Dan sometimes I can't help myself getting involved in this subject, but as you said we just about talked ourselfs out on this subject to no avail.

______
David

[DanG]

Thanks Dan, Not a very good weekend that was spent at local hospital getting a heart procedure done.

I think it is time for all of us to accept what is going on in racing because no matter what side we are on we really can only talk about it.

Judging by who the CHRB put together for the Feb. 20 meeting on synthetic surfaces us horseplayers have ZERO voice.

Now I'm going to start working on tomorrow's Santa Anita pick 6 carryover.:)

BTW: Like you Dan sometimes I can't help myself getting involved in this subject, but as you said we just about talked ourselfs out on this subject to no avail.
______
David
David;

Sorry to hear about your health issues and I wish you all the best. You are a great example of the passion the racing fan has and is largely taken for granted by the industry. One day removed from a heart procedure and you’re attacking the pic-6 like a lion on raw meat.

Salute my friend! :ThmbUp:

BTW: Well said on an issue we both feel strongly about.

[highnote]

I've heard negative reviews of Polytrack and Cushion Track.

I don't recall hearing anything negative about Michael Dickinson's Tapeta. Has anyone heard any negative reviews?

Given Dickinson's legendary training feats and his attention to detail, if I was a track owner considering an artificial surface, I'd certainly want to give a lot of consideration to Tapeta.

Does anyone know how many horses trained by Dickinson have died from breaking down on the track? My guess is that his fatality rate is one of the lowest, if not the lowest, in the industy.

[Pace Cap'n]

The rate of 2.50 fatalities per 1,000 starts compares favorably to a rate of 3.90 fatalities per 1,000 starts during the period of January 1, 2004 through the end of live racing on the conventional dirt track on June 10, 2007.

...“Overall, there are too few starts to really make any definitive conclusions,” Arthur continued. “As with most of the synthetic surfaces, there are very encouraging trends mixed with unexpected complications.”


Thoroughbred Times Article (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2008/February/13/Racing-fatalities-down-in-Golden-Gates-first-meet-over-Tapeta.aspx)

[Kelso]

Thoroughbred Times Article (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2008/February/13/Racing-fatalities-down-in-Golden-Gates-first-meet-over-Tapeta.aspx)


From the article:
"According to statistics compiled by Rick Arthur, D.V.M., equine medical director of the California Horse Racing Board, ten horses from a total of 4,002 starters died as a result of catastrophic injuries sustained in racing on the new Tapeta surface in the meet that ran from November 7 to February 3."

I was starting to be encouraged by the generally favorable comments I've read regarding Tapeta ... as well as by the absence of SA-style fiascos. However, these numbers don't impress me at all.

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but I think Monmouth had a much safer 2007 meet than did Golden Gate ... with about 25% more runners... and from what I heard from backstretch workers, Monmouth had a relative poor breakdown record against its norm. (New maintenance management?) I recall only three horses put down on the track, including the BC Classic, and I heard a few more were euthanized off the van.

Does anyone here at PA have actual 2007 dirt numbers for MTH to conpare to GG's?