Trainer Rates

[Pace Cap'n]

While poking around the internets I came across the website of Ken McPeek, upon which he has posted his rate schedule. It seems quite straightforward except for "Two (2) lifetime breeding rights for colts". What is a breeding right, and how many of them can a colt have?

TRAINING FEES


Full Training Charge - $100 per day
Layups & Yearlings - $40 per day
Mares & Foals - $34 per day
12% of all purse earnings
Two (2) lifetime breeding rights for colts*
5% commission when the horse is sold for a profit over purchase price
Stall Rent - Equal to stable charges
Blacksmith - Equal to blacksmith's charge
Dentist - Equal to dentist's charge
Vanning - Comparable to quality carriers fees
Lubrisyn, Succeed, CortaFlex, wormers, and other medication supplements - charges will apply depending on market prices and handling of the products
www.mcpeekracing.com/about/?p=RateSchedule (http://www.mcpeekracing.com/about/?p=RateSchedule)

[CyberBet]

A guarantee for one live foal per year at no cost, is my understanding. So in this case two per year.

[Kelso]

12% of purses ... breeding rights ... commission. This guy clearly thinks he's pretty good. Is he?

[Shenanigans]

Breeding rights are pretty much share holding. The trainer has 2 breeding rights a year, he can either send his own mares or sell the breeding to an owner with a mare.

[rrbauer]

Only 20% of the horses in training show a profit to their owners. Any questions, why?

[onefast99]

Pletcher is $125 per day, maybe the extra 25 bucks goes towards those new suits.

[northerndancer]

This just made me laugh....... the trainer loves to get everything they can from the owner.....

The one that really got me was the 5% on any horse sold at a profit...... hmmmmm so you get 12% commission on everything the horse earns (so if the horse runs 6th at Woodbine and gets $400 the trainer gets $48) and now if I happen to get very lucky and a horse goes from being a $20,000 Claimer to a $30,000 Claimer he gets $500 for just being there..... What about all the others that he had me claim for $20,000 that we ended up giving away.

Pure and simple I only pay trainer commissions on 1st, 2nd & 3rd placings..... the trainer does not deserve an commission if the horse is not 1,2 or 3.

I do agree with the percentage of 12% for commissions as an owner you should stake the barn and 2% is fair.

No way will I pay a commission on profit from the sale of a horse.

[john del riccio]

This just made me laugh....... the trainer loves to get everything they can from the owner.....

The one that really got me was the 5% on any horse sold at a profit...... hmmmmm so you get 12% commission on everything the horse earns (so if the horse runs 6th at Woodbine and gets $400 the trainer gets $48) and now if I happen to get very lucky and a horse goes from being a $20,000 Claimer to a $30,000 Claimer he gets $500 for just being there..... What about all the others that he had me claim for $20,000 that we ended up giving away.

Pure and simple I only pay trainer commissions on 1st, 2nd & 3rd placings..... the trainer does not deserve an commission if the horse is not 1,2 or 3.

I do agree with the percentage of 12% for commissions as an owner you should stake the barn and 2% is fair.

No way will I pay a commission on profit from the sale of a horse.

ND,

BINGO. Trainers make their money, look at their bills, we all know the deal. Win, or its on to someone that will. 12% is the same as a 10% plus a barn bonus, thats the other way they add on. Just like the racetracks aught to see that the gamblers support the sport. Trainers need to realize that without the owners, their payday goes caput...in fact, the bettors & track mgmt should rea;ize this as well, but that may be asking way too much.

John

[CryingForTheHorses]

This just made me laugh....... the trainer loves to get everything they can from the owner.....

The one that really got me was the 5% on any horse sold at a profit...... hmmmmm so you get 12% commission on everything the horse earns (so if the horse runs 6th at Woodbine and gets $400 the trainer gets $48) and now if I happen to get very lucky and a horse goes from being a $20,000 Claimer to a $30,000 Claimer he gets $500 for just being there..... What about all the others that he had me claim for $20,000 that we ended up giving away.

Pure and simple I only pay trainer commissions on 1st, 2nd & 3rd placings..... the trainer does not deserve an commission if the horse is not 1,2 or 3.

I do agree with the percentage of 12% for commissions as an owner you should stake the barn and 2% is fair.

No way will I pay a commission on profit from the sale of a horse.


ND. It may be possible you are confusing claiming and selling.A owner who has a horse claimed never kicks back anything as thats his money,On the other hand IF your trainer had a connection that could double or triple your purchace price on the sale of a horse,It wouldnt be right for you to not give the 5% commission.IF you needed to sell a horse and you were known for not giving a kickback,You may be owning many that maybe you dont want.

[Cangamble]

While poking around the internets I came across the website of Ken McPeek, upon which he has posted his rate schedule. It seems quite straightforward except for "Two (2) lifetime breeding rights for colts". What is a breeding right, and how many of them can a colt have?

TRAINING FEES



Full Training Charge - $100 per day
Layups & Yearlings - $40 per day
Mares & Foals - $34 per day
12% of all purse earnings
Two (2) lifetime breeding rights for colts*
5% commission when the horse is sold for a profit over purchase price
Stall Rent - Equal to stable charges
Blacksmith - Equal to blacksmith's charge
Dentist - Equal to dentist's charge
Vanning - Comparable to quality carriers fees
Lubrisyn, Succeed, CortaFlex, wormers, and other medication supplements - charges will apply depending on market prices and handling of the products
www.mcpeekracing.com/about/?p=RateSchedule (http://www.mcpeekracing.com/about/?p=RateSchedule)

As good as this guy thinks he is, I wonder why he needs to advertise.
His prices are outrageous. I did a post on training horses at Woodbine and Fort Erie....at Fort Erie you could get a capable trainer for dirt cheap compared to McPeek. Here is the post:
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2008/01/time-for-owners-of-thoroughbreds-in.html

[Cangamble]

I just checked McPeek's web site and his recent starters.
http://www.mcpeekracing.com/entries/
Half of them are running at Turfway where a horse has to get a win every month for the owner to break even at his rates.

[Shenanigans]

All of you that are bashing the prices for training and the percentages must have forgot that the trainer has to pay the assistant trainer, the exercise riders, the grooms, and the hotwalkers. Assistants are making $600 to $1000 a week, exercise riders $400 to $600 (give or take), grooms $350 to $500 (give or take) and hotwalkers $150 to $275 (give or take). Not to mention the trainer is purchasing feed, hay and bedding. One bag of 50 lb feed is $12 to $20, hay is $5 to $10 a bale for timothy and $10 to $20 for alfalfa, straw $4 to $8 a bale.
Of course, these are the prices at the high rank tracks. The reason the cheap tracks (Fort Erie) trainers can charge such cheap rates is because they have two Mexicans taking care (if you want to call it that) of 30+ head of horses. They use a mechanical hot walker that the track charges them pennies a day to use. They purchase cheap grain, cheap hay and cheap bedding. They use a Mexican freelance exercise rider that undercut the other exercise riders and instead of charging $10 a head, he charges $8. The ONLY thing the horses get done up in (if they even get done up) is alcohol. The trainer that charges those cheap rates usually demands more in percentages also.
You get what you pay for in this business.

[kenwoodallpromos]

At least any potential owners know what to expect. Now find and give me a list of Tom Schell (sorry Tom!) and other trainers' lists before the owner even contacts the trainer! Curious- will other trainers give a list of fees to potential clients Prior to discussing hiring?

[onefast99]

At least any potential owners know what to expect. Now find and give me a list of Tom Schell (sorry Tom!) and other trainers' lists before the owner even contacts the trainer! Curious- will other trainers give a list of fees to potential clients Prior to discussing hiring?
I learned the hard way my first trainer decided to go to Palm Meadows for the winter, the cost was $1400 per horse for the barn rental from yours truly Mr Stronach and you had to buy Franks bedding and other supplies. You did get back $100 per race on each horse you raced at Gulfstream park and then he gave back $350 in April to race at GP but by April no ones even left to write a decent race let alone a decent purse. The cost to NJ in shipping was $1500 roundtrip and the trainer still charged his day rate while the horses were in transit. John Del Riccio said it best, you need to ask the trainer what the charges will be prior to entering into an agreement(mostly verbal)for this person to train your horse(s). I'm glad people are bringing this up as it educates many present and future horse owners on what "pitfalls" to look for before they happen.

[JWBurnie]

I have a friend that has multiple horses with McPeek. He has had tremendous success w/ him, however it's come at a cost (He'll ship anywhere at the drop of a hat and not afraid to fly coast to coast). It seems to me that Kenny won't miss a dance (big race) even if it's not the best spot for the horse (distance, surface). He also seems to be very tough on his stock, but I guess that comes with the territory of running at the highest levels of racing.

[onefast99]

I have a friend that has multiple horses with McPeek. He has had tremendous success w/ him, however it's come at a cost (He'll ship anywhere at the drop of a hat and not afraid to fly coast to coast). It seems to me that Kenny won't miss a dance (big race) even if it's not the best spot for the horse (distance, surface). He also seems to be very tough on his stock, but I guess that comes with the territory of running at the highest levels of racing.
It is your friends horse not the trainers horse. He can tell McPeek to stay home instead of racing over his head. We went thru the same thing a young trainer trying to get his name in the papers every week and the only way to do that was going to graded races.

[asH]

have to start scrutinizing the high percentage claim trainers, who usually drop to get wins... high percentages mainly from drops could cover true training ability....gotta justify their price...how much of a write-off when an owner loses 100k horse (at auction) in a 50k claim race?

good info

asH

[JWBurnie]

have to start scrutinizing the high percentage claim trainers, who usually drop to get wins... high percentages mainly from drops could cover true training ability....gotta justify their price...how much of a write-off when an owner loses 100k horse (at auction) in a 50k claim race?

good info

asH

There is an owner (not going to name him, but I'm sure many know him) in the the Mid-Atlantic region, he has got to be the king of the claim, grab the A1nx, and then drop, drop, drop in tag (picking up wins, one after another). Personally, I think it's awful. If you look at the list of trainers he employees, IMO, none are up to any good. None are true horsemen, and all their training is done threw a needle, makes me sick. I hope his (as well, his trainers) greediness and lack of respect for horses and the game come back to haunt them w/ a kick in the head by one of their claims. That will be the day I smile for their success. For me, it's so bad; I refuse to bet on any of his entries, even if it's at a price, I'll skip the race. Cheaters never win but in this game they're rewarded.

[onefast99]

have to start scrutinizing the high percentage claim trainers, who usually drop to get wins... high percentages mainly from drops could cover true training ability....gotta justify their price...how much of a write-off when an owner loses 100k horse (at auction) in a 50k claim race?

good info

asH
Every trainer at every track who has a shot of winning a title tries to do this with every owner. As an owner it is your right to stop the trainer from dropping a 150k yearling purchase into a 50k maiden claimer I think Lawyer Ron was in a 50k claimer and I'm sure I read Ginger Punch was re-purchased at the sale by Stronach for 27k just two that the carrot was out there on. Guys like me like it when the trainers drop in for a tag thats how the claiming game is played!

[northerndancer]

Of course, these are the prices at the high rank tracks. The reason the cheap tracks (Fort Erie) trainers can charge such cheap rates is because they have two Mexicans taking care (if you want to call it that) of 30+ head of horses. They use a mechanical hot walker that the track charges them pennies a day to use. They purchase cheap grain, cheap hay and cheap bedding. They use a Mexican freelance exercise rider that undercut the other exercise riders and instead of charging $10 a head, he charges $8. The ONLY thing the horses get done up in (if they even get done up) is alcohol. The trainer that charges those cheap rates usually demands more in percentages also.
You get what you pay for in this business.

May I ask you for specifics or facts to back up your assertions about Fort Erie..... as this has been a home track of mine I can attest to the fact that any trainer with 30+ horses do have a groom for every 5 horses...... an excerise rider on the payroll or capable freelance rider....... and most do not have walking machines........

The costs associated with training horses at Fort Erie are as follows:

Groom $600 a week
Hot Walker $200 a week
Exercise Rider $800 a week (freelance $15 a head)
Feed $15 for a 50 lb bag
Hay $5 a bale
Timothy or Alfalfa $10 a bale

The cost for a top trainer at Fort Erie is $55 a day.......

Your portral of Fort Erie is just an inappropriate excuse to bash without supporting your post with the facts.

[Cangamble]

All of you that are bashing the prices for training and the percentages must have forgot that the trainer has to pay the assistant trainer, the exercise riders, the grooms, and the hotwalkers. Assistants are making $600 to $1000 a week, exercise riders $400 to $600 (give or take), grooms $350 to $500 (give or take) and hotwalkers $150 to $275 (give or take). Not to mention the trainer is purchasing feed, hay and bedding. One bag of 50 lb feed is $12 to $20, hay is $5 to $10 a bale for timothy and $10 to $20 for alfalfa, straw $4 to $8 a bale.
Of course, these are the prices at the high rank tracks. The reason the cheap tracks (Fort Erie) trainers can charge such cheap rates is because they have two Mexicans taking care (if you want to call it that) of 30+ head of horses. They use a mechanical hot walker that the track charges them pennies a day to use. They purchase cheap grain, cheap hay and cheap bedding. They use a Mexican freelance exercise rider that undercut the other exercise riders and instead of charging $10 a head, he charges $8. The ONLY thing the horses get done up in (if they even get done up) is alcohol. The trainer that charges those cheap rates usually demands more in percentages also.
You get what you pay for in this business.
Sorry, we don't have much Mexican labour here. You must be thinking Thistledown. You can get a trainer there for $35-45 a day, I hear.
The actual cost to train a horse with a trainer not lifting a finger is around $48 a day if done properly at Fort Erie.
Assistant trainers at Fort Erie usually groom a few and hot walk when needed.

[CryingForTheHorses]

At least any potential owners know what to expect. Now find and give me a list of Tom Schell (sorry Tom!) and other trainers' lists before the owner even contacts the trainer! Curious- will other trainers give a list of fees to potential clients Prior to discussing hiring?

Hey Ken. I am a hands on trainer that does it all. I muck stalls I do them up I also ride the van when my horses ship to GP.My wife does all the galloping,Helps with the stalls,Does them up ect. We charge 55 a day. We dont have any hidden charges and most of my horses run often and win for more then we claimed them. I give my owners a bang for their buck.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Hey Ken. I am a hands on trainer that does it all. I muck stalls I do them up I also ride the van when my horses ship to GP.My wife does all the galloping,Helps with the stalls,Does them up ect. We charge 55 a day. We dont have any hidden charges and most of my horses run often and win for more then we claimed them. I give my owners a bang for their buck.
They know the expenses up front- that is great!

[Doc]

Based on McPeek's rates, if you had a horse in training with him, that horse should earn at least $5,000 a month in purses for you to even break even. It doesn't seem like a lot, but so many things can happen to a horse that one bad month can send you swimming into red ink. I do agree that McPeek's rates are a bit high for Turfway's purse structure. But then again, the guy has proven he can develop stakes winners ... you always get what you pay for in this game, and if you find someone with cheap day rates, you better make sure he has a solid win/in-the-money percentage, or else you'll be throwing your money into the manure pit.

Doc

[DanG]

All I can say is thank God there are owners willing to keep the game going and trainers & staff willing to work brutal hours in all weather. Groom one horse for a week and your back will ache in places you never knew existed.

Salute!

http://www.newrider.com/Library/Gaited_Horses/PasoBowing.jpg

[Cangamble]

Based on McPeek's rates, if you had a horse in training with him, that horse should earn at least $5,000 a month in purses for you to even break even. It doesn't seem like a lot, but so many things can happen to a horse that one bad month can send you swimming into red ink. I do agree that McPeek's rates are a bit high for Turfway's purse structure. But then again, the guy has proven he can develop stakes winners ... you always get what you pay for in this game, and if you find someone with cheap day rates, you better make sure he has a solid win/in-the-money percentage, or else you'll be throwing your money into the manure pit.

Doc
$4-5,000 month is a huge nut to crack, even at Woodbine where the purses are high. But especially at Turfway. What percent of horses make $50,000 a year (and that would be to break even at McPeek's rates)?

[ralph_the_cat]

Owners that seem to make decent profit, hire a private trainer to train just their horses... they take care of the bills... few and far less owners than you would expect do it... but their out there... and they do well... It doesn't matter if they're training 12 horses or 18 horses... the trainers get paid on a salary (of course bonuses too), and work off the owners finances... trainers are easy to replace when owners run their business like this... however, most owners are not in the position to start such a business... takes alot of experience and start-up money to manage your own stable in that manner... helluva lot better than trusting someone else with your money...

[asH]

$4-5,000 month is a huge nut to crack, even at Woodbine where the purses are high. But especially at Turfway. What percent of horses make $50,000 a year (and that would be to break even at McPeek's rates)?

$5000? thats without the vig...lol

Full Training Charge - $100 per day
Layups & Yearlings - $40 per day
Mares & Foals - $34 per day
12% of all purse earnings
Two (2) lifetime breeding rights for colts*
5% commission when the horse is sold for a profit over purchase price
Stall Rent - Equal to stable charges
Blacksmith - Equal to blacksmith's charge
Dentist - Equal to dentist's charge
Vanning - Comparable to quality carriers fees
Lubrisyn, Succeed, CortaFlex, wormers, and other medication supplements - charges will apply depending on market prices and handling of the products
asH

[john del riccio]

All I can say is thank God there are owners willing to keep the game going and trainers & staff willing to work brutal hours in all weather. Groom one horse for a week and your back will ache in places you never knew existed.

Salute!



Dan,

You dont know how true a statement this is. OWNERS are the vehicle make this game possible and the bettors provide the fuel to keep it going.

I once asked my trainer if i could be a "groom for a day". He oblidged. I am a pretty fit guy and from hotwalking 5 horses after training, I thought my right shoulder was going to fall off. Not to mention that after the work was done at about 12:30 (started at 4:30), I was ready for a nap. But I "had one in" (as a groom) in the 3rd race and there was no time for napping.
Suffice to say, it ain't an easy gig.

John

[DanG]

Dan,

You dont know how true a statement this is. OWNERS are the vehicle make this game possible and the bettors provide the fuel to keep it going.

I once asked my trainer if i could be a "groom for a day". He oblidged. I am a pretty fit guy and from hotwalking 5 horses after training, I thought my right shoulder was going to fall off. Not to mention that after the work was done at about 12:30 (started at 4:30), I was ready for a nap. But I "had one in" (as a groom) in the 3rd race and there was no time for napping.
Suffice to say, it ain't an easy gig.

John
It really is John…just wicked.

I wish everyone could get some extended time on the backside to really appreciate it. I know through my brother and watching Mott and Proctor it becomes your life.

I remember rolling into Santa Anita at 4:30am half awake wondering who would be there. Charlie Whittingham was already working and how old was he in the late 1980’s…70 something? A real Trojan work ethic in this game or your left in the dust (or rubber as the case may be). :D

[ryesteve]

I wish everyone could get some extended time on the backside
I already spend way too much time on my backside :D

[northerndancer]

Dan,

You dont know how true a statement this is. OWNERS are the vehicle make this game possible and the bettors provide the fuel to keep it going.

I once asked my trainer if i could be a "groom for a day". He oblidged. I am a pretty fit guy and from hotwalking 5 horses after training, I thought my right shoulder was going to fall off. Not to mention that after the work was done at about 12:30 (started at 4:30), I was ready for a nap. But I "had one in" (as a groom) in the 3rd race and there was no time for napping.
Suffice to say, it ain't an easy gig.

John

John,
I did the same thing at Fort Erie for 3 months........ I mucked stalls, brushed horses, picked feet, cleaned water buckets and feed tubs, mixed feed, rake shedrows, hot walked, took horses over for racing, went back in the evening to water off, etc........ it was a real eye opening experience.

We were just increasing the size of our stable so I wanted to really know what the heck went on during the complete day so the way I figured it the best way for me to get the education was to be completely hands on...... my trainer busted me in right away...... the only job I did for the first week was muck every stall every morning (30 stalls) then as I graduated I went to other tasks through out the barn....... I tell prospective owners if you can afford the time then it is something they should do even if it is on Saturdays for a month.

Truth be told it was on of the most demanding as well as rewarding voactions I have ever experienced.
ND

[JWBurnie]

I am actually doing something very similar and have been since Oct. 2005. It's been by far the most enjoyment I've gotten out of life. I try to get out 4-5 days a week for a couple hours. You really can't appreciate all the time that goes into keeping a racehorse in training till you do it, see it for yourself. None of the work is easy (not to mention the hazards). If I could recommend two things that every racing fan does sometime in their life..... Take in morning training from a secluded spot on the rail as the sun is coming up, every one of your senses will remember the experience (Saratoga / Oklahoma TT, nothing like it.). Second would be tag along for a "shipper". Load and unload, see what it's like to see and feel a horse on his toes leading up to a race, medications, the 4+ hour wait of anticipation, paddock/saddling and jockey instructions. After the race, how hard they’re blowing, injuries (hopefully none), whether they bled, what the rider says, being scoped, etc. It's amazing. You'll have a whole new appreciation for the horse. Growing up, when I was told, “Leave it all on the field”, I didn’t have a clue. These athletes do.

[point given]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG
I wish everyone could get some extended time on the backside


I already spend way too much time on my backside :D

You guys keep talkin' like this and you'll find yourselves in some Minneapolis airport bathroom tryin' to 'splain to the lawman you was just tappin' your feet.:D