Synthetic Surfaces-Biggest Folly Since The Edsel

[David-LV]

COULD SYNTHETIC SURFACES BE THE BIGGEST FOLLY SINCE THE EDSEL ??

It is time that we all open our eyes to the real truth concerning racing on these fraudulent surfaces.

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David
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But Len Shulman, a writer for the Blood-Horse magazine and a frequent guest on Roger Stein's racing radio show, used different numbers on a recent broadcast, numbers he said came from the CHRB's own website and, if accurate, would make synthetic tracks the biggest folly since the Edsel.

He said Hollywood Park lost 19 horses in '03, then 25 in '04, another 20 each in '05 and '06 and, in '07 after a synthetic track had been put in, lost 20. He said Del Mar, during its terrible summer of '06 on dirt, lost 19 horses and, on its new Polytrack in '07, lost 18.

Those numbers, no longer on the CHRB website, were disputed by Shapiro. He said that Shulman was mixing apples and oranges and maybe a few bananas and went on the air to tell him so. Shulman fired back, falling only slightly short of calling Shapiro a liar.

Stein, in racing for 30 years as a trainer and broadcaster, says, "This is exactly what racing didn't need. Horse racing is its own worst enemy. Always has been."

Read full article on link below from Sat. Feb 9th LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre9feb09,1,4909400.column?ctrack=4&cset=true

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David

[Greyfox]

Interesting.

Sorry but the link that you have provided will not open for me.

Personally, I have no problem with synthetic tracks.

Hint: "Model" them. (46Zil I am sure is right on in this ball park.)

[David-LV]

Interesting.

Sorry but the link that you have provided will not open for me.

Personally, I have no problem with synthetic tracks.

Hint: "Model" them. (46Zil I am sure is right on in this ball park.)

You can read the full article at: www.equidaily.com (http://www.equidaily.com)

The article is called:

LATimes: Finger Pointing Continues Over Problems With Santa Anita's Synthetic Track.

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David

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre9feb09,1,4909400.column

[DanG]

Talk about breaking a resolution… :faint:

I swore I wouldn’t spend time discussing this issue because the threads don’t resolve anything imo. Zero give and take (myself included) and its one of the few topics where I’ve had people respond to a post (SCREAMING) :mad: in this font…
"ZZZ"
Here goes nothing…LA Times; (PA, Mike…If you have one once of empathy for me whatsoever you will delete this immediately!) :D

I do like the reference to the Hollywood fatality rate that conveniently leaves off the fact that the number of horses training there nearly doubled. (Government math at its finest.) Not to mention they to botched the maintenance during a couple week stretch that they acknowledged compromised the surface.

Three things have happened so far on a whole…



Major owners are flocking to the surfaces.
Field size and handle have increased in every circumstance.
Injuries have been reduced, even with weather, installation, maintenance and training issues.
I saw four different tracks live last August. Saratoga, the Oklahoma training track, Monmouth and we drove out to Dickenson’s Tapeta farms. I was with two women who have practically ridden horses from birth.

Watching training on the Oklahoma training track you could hear and feel the concussion like a jack hammer when the animal struck the track. (BTW: Several fatalities later this prompted an emergency meeting among horsemen pleading to track management for change.)

After the Haskell we went to Dickenson’s because I promised the people I was they could see the operation and the surface. We got there too late for hard training but an employee took her pony around and the difference in impact was remarkable.

Don’t pretned to have all the answers.


The theory on breathing the stuff in…pure speculation from where I sit.
“Different” injuries because of the surface. The trainer I respect and talk to about it predicted this and claims the “quarter horse trainer turned thoroughbred trainer will have to adjust” as Ian Jory put it.
That’s my completely biased view.

Do I call all against it “horse haters etc…?” Of course not, but I believe that the initial Keeneland meet (and the Blue Grass that seemed to blow everyone’s mind) shaped many people and they've been cherry picking evidence every since when it reinforces their argument.

[rufus999]

Stop pressuring trainers to run infirm horses and set up more stringent guidelines for breeders.

rufus

p.s. for what its worth, the Edsel was an example of quality engineering.

[cj]

When a graded turf race is run on dirt, doesn't it get its grade dropped unless reviewed? Why are races formerly graded on dirt maintaining their grade on a completely different surface?

Why do I bring this up? Because this stuff isn't dirt, and that is the chief complaint most have about the racing. It has nothing to do with winning or losing, or wanting to see horses more or less injured. The jury is still definitely out on that one anyway.

[Premier Turf Club]

And not all synthetic surfaces are the same. Based on everything I have read, and have heard off the record from trainers and owners, Tapeta at both GG and PID is an overwhelming success.

Now how this all affects the breeding end going forward is a completely different matter.

[Tom]

Great point, CJ....that is what I was getting at whne I said the BC was minor league racing from now on - you don't decide championiships on saran wrap. We are years away from running any GR1 stakes on poly, IMHO.

Day to day racing, I have no problem with tapeta, crapeta, poly or whatever, but not for deciding champioinships. If a track (SA) decide to go poly, then they should accept that fact that they no longer conduct top flight racing. It appears SA got the message! :lol::lol::lol:

[kenwoodallpromos]

I would like to know what on the website supposedly had those numbers- because the annual report should still be up. Let me know if anyone finds out.

[russowen77]

It will be interesting to see the numbers this year at Oaklawn. The track is in great shape and the dirt doesn't seem to be killing them yet.:)

[Kelso]

He said Hollywood Park lost 19 horses in '03, then 25 in '04, another 20 each in '05 and '06 and, in '07 after a synthetic track had been put in, lost 20. He said Del Mar, during its terrible summer of '06 on dirt, lost 19 horses and, on its new Polytrack in '07, lost 18.


I have absolutely no basis for comparison ... but these numbers are, to me, atrocious.

IN GENERAL ... regardless of surface or usage at any one track ... how do these numbers compare with numbers from the '50s, '60s or '70s?

I'm all for protecting the horses, by whatever means, but artificial doesn't seem to be doing it. On the other hand, there has to be a significant reason that owners are creating larger fields at some tracks with their expensive assets ... so perhaps the stuff does work.

I hope someone soon comes up with a valid, objective study of breakdowns over the decades ... correlated with major changes such as breeding, doping, surfaces and anything else that might be pertinent.

From what I've read here at PA, it's the dope and speed-breeding that's at the heart of the breakdown problem. But I'd like to be much more certain ... whatever the answer might be ... including as to whether the problem is any greater now than it was in the past.

[Tom]

He said Hollywood Park lost 19 horses in '03, then 25 in '04, another 20 each in '05 and '06 and, in '07 after a synthetic track had been put in, lost 20. He said Del Mar, during its terrible summer of '06 on dirt, lost 19 horses and, on its new Polytrack in '07, lost 18.

So this would suggest the track surface has no bearing on the breakdowns. Or poly is about one horse a yaer better than dirt.

[Marshall Bennett]

Championships should be decided on dirt or grass , no exceptions !!

[bigmack]

I'm weary of castigating David LV for his speculation with regards to the health effects of poly's, but I'll be darn is I am going to allow him to abase a fine automobile like the Edsel. I bought one from a farmer in the middle of Montana years ago and I had a ball with that ride.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/ed.jpg

[classhandicapper]

When a graded turf race is run on dirt, doesn't it get its grade dropped unless reviewed? Why are races formerly graded on dirt maintaining their grade on a completely different surface?

Why do I bring this up? Because this stuff isn't dirt, and that is the chief complaint most have about the racing. It has nothing to do with winning or losing, or wanting to see horses more or less injured. The jury is still definitely out on that one anyway.

Exactly.

Personally, I have no complaint about using artificial surfaces in racing.

I have complaints about the stupidity and dishonestly of the people promoting them.

On the stupidity front: Rolling out brand new surfaces at SA, DMR, HOL and KEE was probably one of the dumbest business moves since New Coke. I would say that even if it was an unqualified exceptional success in every way. Until you know almost everything you need to know about the long term economics, maintenance issues, long term health statistics for horses and jockeys, understand the impact on breeding, horseplayers, owners, etc... of a change this huge, you don't roll it out at 4 of your most important high quality and high profile tracks and risk a high profile disaster like SA. You spend a few years studying the results at places like Turfway, Woodbine, etc.... and then slowly start implementing elsewhere if it makes sense.

On the dishonestly front: Can we stop pretending that these new surfaces are a dirt substitute. They are an entirely unqiue surfaces that some dirt horses like and others don't. In addition, some horses that don't like dirt at all do like these surfaces. Even worse, they are not even consistent between the various brands. How in God's name can you give awards to "DIRT" champions and establish the values properly when the Breeder's Cup and other important divisional races are going to be decided on another surface? It it so beyond preposterous, this may belong in the stupidity category also.

[kingfin66]

I'm weary of castigating David LV for his speculation with regards to the health effects of poly's, but I'll be darn is I am going to allow him to abase a fine automobile like the Edsel. I bought one from a farmer in the middle of Montana years ago and I had a ball with that ride.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/ed.jpg

Wow, thanks for posting that pic of the Edsel. The Edsel was a great idea that was a little bit ahead of its time. Had it been introduced a few years later, when some of the technology had been developed a little bit more, it just may have succeeded. I suppose that the same can be said of AstroDirt, but it will likely succeed in spite of itself, although it will never be as pretty as the Edsel or even real dirt.

[JustRalph]

I'm weary of castigating David LV for his speculation with regards to the health effects of poly's, but I'll be darn is I am going to allow him to abase a fine automobile like the Edsel. I bought one from a farmer in the middle of Montana years ago and I had a ball with that ride.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/ed.jpg


Is that photo the one you owned? Great color........How much did that thing weigh? I like the style. I also like the car that Andy n Barney drove. :lol:

[bigmack]

Is that photo the one you owned? Great color........How much did that thing weigh? I like the style. I also like the car that Andy n Barney drove. :lol:
The one I found in Montana was black with red interior & white streaking the wings. I think it weighed a breath under 2 tons. I drove it through Yellowstone & Glacier then on to Chicago where I sold it for double what I paid for it. Many fond memories of haulin' freight out of local salons with that beast. Or was the frieght more beasty?

(JR, I rather liked your initial post) :lol:

Ang & Bernard P. Fife drove a Ford Galaxie. I had a 62 Ford Fairlane that was very similar. I always wanted to "brick proof" the windows for fear of Ernest T. Bass.

[russowen77]

Racetrackers must have loved Edsels. there are several around here for sale usually. We don't salt the roads so they last a bit. :)