Clemens going to prison ?

[JustRalph]

Anybody think that Roger Clemens just got trapped into a prison sentence?

His former trainer turns over "evidence" the day after Clemens does a sworn deposition to Congress............... if he was a mouse........... I might think that his head just got smashed in.................by a 29 cent trap


If his blood is part of the evidence submitted today........he is toast!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22756043/

[njcurveball]

but he now claims he kept blood, gauze, and needles from Roger Clemens for seven years.

Can we say MENTALLY ILL?

[JustRalph]

but he now claims he kept blood, gauze, and needles from Roger Clemens for seven years.

Can we say MENTALLY ILL?

Can we say, maybe he was smart? Who knows with this guy?

[Ron]

This is a lover's quarrel gone way too far.

[OTM Al]

The evidence could never hold up. It may be his blood and it may be PED traces there, but that still does not prove that both were always present at the same time.

[cj]

He should have went to prison a long time ago for drilling Piazza in the head. It was one of the most low life, classless things I've seen.

[melman]

Forensic scientist Dr. David Black, president of Aegis Sciences Corp. "As a forensic scientist I find this to be preposterous". Hypothetically, Black said there would be no way to prove if drugs were added to a syringe that contained a sample of Clemens blood obtained earlier. "You don't have to be a television creative writer to come up with this".

cj--Do you also think that going to prison :) would be a good idea or show a lack of class :) for this group of great pitchers.

1. Bob Gibson
2. Don Drysdale
3. Pedro Martinez

[melman]

BTW there are many more on the list of pitchers called "head hunters" in their time. If you had hit a home run off "gibby" last at bat then you had best be prepared to eat some dust next time up. :)

[GaryG]

BTW there are many more on the list of pitchers called "head hunters" in their time. If you had hit a home run off "gibby" last at bat then you had best be prepared to eat some dust next time up. :)They didn't call Sal Maglie "the barber" for nothing. He gave plenty of close shaves.

[shanta]

BTW there are many more on the list of pitchers called "head hunters" in their time. If you had hit a home run off "gibby" last at bat then you had best be prepared to eat some dust next time up. :)


I would have loved to see these "showboats" like M Ramirez bat against the likes of Gibson or Drysdale.

Now that's entertainment :ThmbUp:

[njcurveball]

He should have went to prison a long time ago for drilling Piazza in the head. It was one of the most low life, classless things I've seen.

I have hit a few guys in the head as well, maybe I should just go turn myself in. :lol:

We won't even go into some of the cheap hits in football or hockey that are 10 times worse.

[melman]

njcurveball-----Remember the Juan Marichal/John Roseboro brawl?? Unlike Clemens who threw a shattered bat at Piazza from a distance our man Juan swung the whole bat at Roseboro while in the batter's box. Up close and personal. :)

[OTM Al]

cj, you are a pretty knowledgable baseball fan, so I'm a little surprised on your opinion on this. I will freely admit that pitch was up and in and was fully meant to put Piazza on his backside. If you remember Piazza was very timid when it came to getting hit until they finally egged him into chasing Mota through the Dodger parkinglot.....anyway, I've seen that pitch a hundred times and all I come back with is that Piazza hung over the plate and froze. He never reacted to it. Almost all hitters will react by moving backward. That is why when a pitcher wants to hit a guy in the head they throw it behind where the head is positioned, not at where the head is positioned so when the guy starts to duck, he goes right into it. Take a look sometime what Eric Show did to Andre Dawson back in the late 80s if you want to see a perfect example of this.

[fiveouttasix]

If not the head- hunting pitch, what about flinging the broken bat as he ran to first. Just a little Roid- Rage perhaps?

[njcurveball]

njcurveball-----Remember the Juan Marichal/John Roseboro brawl?? Unlike Clemens who threw a shattered bat at Piazza from a distance our man Juan swung the whole bat at Roseboro while in the batter's box. Up close and personal. :)

You are talking about "Hall of Famer", head of the latin community icon Juan Marichal? ;)

Roseboro was never the same and if they are locking up players, Pete Rose is going back to jail as well.

What people forget about the broken bat toss is the Yankees kicked the Mets A$$es that game and the series. Anyone ever hear of intimidation?

Unlike Roseboro and the catcher Rose knocked over, Piazza was not even touched.

Roid Rage? LOL! That is pretty funny! :lol:

[GaryG]

Unlike Roseboro and the catcher Rose knocked over, Piazza was not even touched.I believe his name was Ray Fosse and it ended his career.

[njcurveball]

I believe his name was Ray Fosse and it ended his career.

I would have to say 2nd to Marichal this was the worst thing I have seen on a baseball field. If it had been the World Series, then fine. But a freakin All Star Game. :mad:

[njcurveball]

Anybody think that Roger Clemens just got trapped into a prison sentence?

/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22756043/)

Back on topic, Clemens should have just kept his mouth shut. His lawyer should have told him to do that as well.

As more "evidence" appears, it will be forever linked to him, even if at the end of all this, they find him innocent.

[JustRalph]

I believe his name was Ray Fosse and it ended his career.

It didn't end his career but shortened it for sure. He was never the same. the weird part is he was friends with Pete. Fosse had dinner at Rose's house the night before I believe. These guys say that back in the day, the All Star game meant something............... I will never forget that .............it happened at Riverfront, the old Reds Stadium. It was a home game for the Reds players.............Rose says it ended the friendship...............

[JustRalph]

CLemens Lawyer doesn't have the sense to shut up either. If he pisses the wrong people off he is going to be sitting out a few months doing the Martha Stewart Shuffle...............This is also the first I have heard that this trainer dude used to be a cop..............

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23102146/

Some interesting points from the article:

They compared Clemens’ ERA and walks plus-hits-per-inning with those of 31 pitchers since 1968 with 3,000 innings and 10 or more starts in at least 15 seasons.

“The available data on Clemens’s career strongly hint that some unusual factors may have been at play in producing his excellent late-career statistics,” they said, while adding, “in any analysis of his career statistics, it is impossible to say whether this unusual factor was performance-enhancing drugs.”

“I think there will be a criminal prosecution after Wednesday, and that means there will be grand jury proceedings and subsequent proceedings,” said Richard Emery, one of McNamee’s attorneys. “I don’t see there’s any possibility that Brian has any jeopardy. I only see the possibility of Clemens getting investigated by Justice, whether or not Congress refers it.”

A message left Sunday night requesting Justice Department comment was not immediately returned.

Told of Emery’s comments, Rusty Hardin, Clemens’ lead lawyer, said: “They have consistently acted and indicated that they have a pipeline to agents of the Department of Justice. Whether they do or not, it certainly raises a lot of questions of whether what’s going on here is proper. So I’m not going to express any predictions of what will or will not happen.”

McNamee says he injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone at least 16 times in 1998, 2000 and 2001, accusations Clemens has repeatedly denied. Both are set to testify Wednesday on Capitol Hill in what figures to be a day of high drama.

“Our position is very simple: Roger did not take steroids, he did not use human growth hormone, and he has demonstrated that he is willing to repeatedly testify under oath as to the truth of those matters,” Hardin said.

McNamee last month gave the Justice Department what he says are needles from times Clemens used performance-enhancing drugs, evidence that the pitcher’s legal team says is manufactured. Emery said he thinks there will be a Justice Department investigation of Clemens even if the committee doesn’t ask for one.

“If the tests come back that he is connected with those syringes, they have evidence that contradicts his sworn statement to federal officials,” Emery said.

Hardin was quoted in Sunday’s New York Times as saying it would be “brazen” and “unbelievable” if IRS Special Agent Jeff Novitzky, a key prosecutor in the BALCO drug cases, attends the hearing.

“If he ever messes with Roger, Roger will eat his lunch,” Hardin was quoted as saying.

Rep. Henry Waxman, the committee chairman, wrote a letter to Hardin on Sunday saying that some comments by Hardin and McNamee’s lawyers were “inadvisable.”

“I do not know your intent in making this statement, but under one interpretation it can be seen an attempt to intimidate a federal law enforcement official in the performance of his official duties,” Waxman wrote. “It is not your client’s prerogative to dictate who attends or does not attend the hearing. ... I trust you did not intend your comments to be a signal that there could be adverse repercussions to a federal law enforcement official for attending the hearing or taking other official actions.”

[Dan Montilion]

njcurveball-----Remember the Juan Marichal/John Roseboro brawl?? Unlike Clemens who threw a shattered bat at Piazza from a distance our man Juan swung the whole bat at Roseboro while in the batter's box. Up close and personal. :)Marichal was just warming up for the cock fight.

[ezrabrooks]

The story goes...Marichal told Roseboro, as he was getting into the box, "he hit me..I hit you".. He was a man of his word..


Ez

[njcurveball]

It didn't end his career but shortened it for sure. He was never the same. the weird part is he was friends with Pete. Fosse had dinner at Rose's house the night before I believe. These guys say that back in the day, the All Star game meant something............... I will never forget that .............it happened at Riverfront, the old Reds Stadium. It was a home game for the Reds players.............Rose says it ended the friendship...............

Funny how these things work out. If Fosse had continued his All Star play, the Indians would have never traded him and he would not have two world series rings now. He lost in career numbers, but gained in World Championships! :ThmbUp:

Urban Legend has grown on the dinner, but what seems to be true is that there were 3 couples out dining at a Restaurant and Rose stayed out very late while the others came home early.

Those of us who were baseball fans then can only scratch our heads how the game has changed and now when they go into extra innings, they simply stop it and let it end in a tie. :ThmbDown:

Jim

[cj]

I have hit a few guys in the head as well, maybe I should just go turn myself in. :lol:

We won't even go into some of the cheap hits in football or hockey that are 10 times worse.

10 times worse than getting drilled in the face by a 95 mph fastball? Those must be some crazy hits.

[cj]

BTW there are many more on the list of pitchers called "head hunters" in their time. If you had hit a home run off "gibby" last at bat then you had best be prepared to eat some dust next time up. :)

A ridiculous part of the game that is history now hopefully. There is a big difference between a brush back and a bean ball.

[njcurveball]

10 times worse than getting drilled in the face by a 95 mph fastball? Those must be some crazy hits.

Ever see the amount of concussions in hockey and football? YES, a number times worse, if you want to call it two or ten or twenty that is your choice.

When was the last time a baseball player retired due to having too many concussions?

You also have no concept of the game if you think the players get drilled in the face. Unlike football or hockey, the hit comes when the batter is totally focused on the ball.

[cj]

We'll have to disagree on that one. I'd take a concussion every day over getting drilled in the face with a 95 mph fastball.

[JustRalph]

You also have no concept of the game if you think the players get drilled in the face. Unlike football or hockey, the hit comes when the batter is totally focused on the ball.

what about that hockey player with his throat cut the other day, that was incredible..........

Tell Juan Encarnacion getting hit with a ball isn't dangerous............

although that one was a foul ball.

[njcurveball]

We'll have to disagree on that one. I'd take a concussion every day over getting drilled in the face with a 95 mph fastball.

IN the course of a year, there are 162 games * 30 teams * 9 innings * 15 pitches per inning average.

So we have over a half million pitches and how many times do you see someone hit in the FACE with a 95 mph fastball?

I can think of one, you?

[cj]

Besides the point anyway guys, I'm talking about intentionally trying to injure another player, not fluke accidents or natural plays in the game.

[njcurveball]

Besides the point anyway guys,

As usual when asked for facts, you come up short. :ThmbDown:

Wait, weren't you guy that says Lopez STIFF speed horses all the time? Yeah! I think that was you! :ThmbDown:

[PaceAdvantage]

As usual when asked for facts, you come up short. :ThmbDown:

Wait, weren't you guy that says Lopez STIFF speed horses all the time? Yeah! I think that was you! :ThmbDown:Wow...you really don't like it here anymore, do you?

[cj]

IN the course of a year, there are 162 games * 30 teams * 9 innings * 15 pitches per inning average.

So we have over a half million pitches and how many times do you see someone hit in the FACE with a 95 mph fastball?

I can think of one, you?

Are you serious? Of course it rarely happens, because it could result in DEATH! Only a total jackass would throw a baseball at someone's head. Of course, now we know it very well could have been roid rage. Which, of course, still makes him an asshole.

[cj]

As usual when asked for facts, you come up short. :ThmbDown:

Wait, weren't you guy that says Lopez STIFF speed horses all the time? Yeah! I think that was you! :ThmbDown:

No, I didn't say he does it all the time. I said he does it sometimes.

[njcurveball]

Wow...you really don't like it here anymore, do you?

I tend to like the people who post from intelligence and facts rather than their own biased opinions based who they like or dislike.

I guess to "like it" here you have to think Lopez is so good he can stiff anytime he wants and show a flat bet profit.

You also have to think that pitchers aim 95 mph fastballs at guys FACES all the time.

What next? Hilary is Queen?

[njcurveball]

[QUOTE=cj] Only a total jackass would throw a baseball at someone's head.QUOTE]

Call me a Jackass then, I accept it. Just like only a total jackass would try to take off a quarterbacks head and fly at another guy on the ice at full speed.

You don't understand the game and frankly if pitchers gave up the inside of the plate so easily, they would be getting drilled in the face much more than any batter!

[PaceAdvantage]

I tend to like the people who post from intelligence and facts rather than their own biased opinions based who they like or dislike.

I guess to "like it" here you have to think Lopez is so good he can stiff anytime he wants and show a flat bet profit.

You also have to think that pitchers aim 95 mph fastballs at guys FACES all the time.

What next? Hilary is Queen?Maybe it's me, but post #31 just SCREAMED sq764, phillsfan, harnesslover....don't you agree?

That's what I'm talking about....

[njcurveball]

Maybe it's me, but post #31 just SCREAMED sq764, phillsfan, harnesslover....don't you agree?

That's what I'm talking about....

Funny I thought post #30 SCREAMED the same!

[cj]

There is a huge difference between pitching inside, and maybe even hitting someone, and head hunting. It is particularly a cowardice move when that pitcher doesn't have to take a bat into his hands and get up to the plate.

I actually don't think you read what I write, but what you hope I wrote, so you have something to argue about. I have said many times in this thread I don't think pitchers head hunt very often these days, or in any era for that matter. I do think it was obvious Clemens did it to Piazza, and I'm not talking about the silly bat throwing incident.

[cj]

Maybe it's me, but post #31 just SCREAMED sq764, phillsfan, harnesslover....don't you agree?

That's what I'm talking about....

It isn't just you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Funny I thought post #30 SCREAMED the same!Well then I guess it's just your bad luck that CJ is also a mod here....

[njcurveball]

Well then I guess it's just your bad luck that CJ is also a mod here....

LOL! My bad luck! I am one of the few here that has an "editor" that decides which posts get deleted. :lol:

Last I checked the TOS having a different opinion was OK and last I checked a post by the "one and the same" CJ, it also was OK. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

LOL! My bad luck! I am one of the few here that has an "editor" that decides which posts get deleted. :lol:

Last I checked the TOS having a different opinion was OK and last I checked a post by the "one and the same" CJ, it also was OK. :ThmbUp:Post #31 was out of line....how about you get back on topic now.

[cj]

Post #30 was out of line....how about you get back on topic now.

Seriously? What was out of line about it?

Nevermind, must be a number typo.

[njcurveball]

Seriously? What was out of line about it?

Nevermind, must be a number typo.

YEAH! No worries! You are a "preferred customer" here! :ThmbUp:

HEY! CLemens sucks! Lopez SUCKS worse! What else can I do for you?

[cj]

You could start by reminding me when I said Clemens suck...or Lopez for that matter.

[PaceAdvantage]

Seriously? What was out of line about it?

Nevermind, must be a number typo.Ooops...see what a difference one number can make? :lol:

Sorry about that....

[PaceAdvantage]

YEAH! No worries! You are a "preferred customer" here! :ThmbUp:What tipped you off? Was it the moderator status? :lol:

[melman]

No cj in post 6 of this thread you just said Clemens was a "low life and classless" person who "should go to jail". However if you want to split hairs you did not say "he sucks". What Marichal did to John Roseboro was far worse then any "bean ball" by Roger. I do NOT recall ANY time in the career of Clemens that he hit a batter in the face with a pitch. I guess you must really think that Pedro Martinez is a "low life and classless person who should go to jail" also as he was a classic "bean ball" or pitching inside person.

[cj]

Well, Clemens definitely drilled Piazza after he hit a home run, in the face and knocked him out cold. He caused him to have some pretty serious head injuries and to miss the All Star game that year. Many would argue he has never been close to the same player since. And now, we find out it was most likely done by a guy that was all roided up.

I would certainly say Juan Marichel should have went to prison also. Today, if he did that, he most likely would.

Again, for the last time, pitching inside and throwing bean balls are two completely different things. Nobody ever lost a career by taking one in the thigh or the rib cage.

I'm just amazed anyone can defend something like this.

[DanG]

I’m not in the habit of defending Clemons, but pitching inside is not an exact science. Even if you do it more than most, it’s not your normal arm slot and when you release the ball high your margin of error increases.

On the flip side the most pathetic example of evening the score had to be Shawn Estes when I believe he missed Roger TWICE attempting to even the score for Piazza. :faint:

In my eyes this is something the players should be left to deal with. Outside of Ty Cobb sharpening his spikes, the game should police itself imo.

Two side notes;



As mentioned earlier about Roger throwing the broken bat at Mike. The ump that left his balls home and didn’t throw Clemons out for that should have been yanked off the field by his jock strap. Just a gutless non-call imo. :ThmbDown:
Little League in New Jersey and 12yo male testosterone levels.
What I lack in brains I was given in arm strength and could throw hard when I pitched. Bernie Johnson was the best hitter in the league and we had many showdowns. The week before he cheap-shotted me in pick-up football and I told him we play you next week and payback is coming.

He came up and I pulled an “Estes” and missed throwing behind him. His mother starts yelling from the stands “Don’t you hit my Bernie”. I drilled him in the arm with the next pitch and his mom (easy 250lbs if she was an ounce) jumps the small side fence and starts toward the mound. Our assistant coach grabs her and cooler heads prevail.

Moral of the story; Clemons is lucky Piazza’s mom wasn’t at the game. :D

PS: While were talking sports a plea to any parents out there who have kids playing organized ball. When I went for coaching certification in Florida they show you a film called “Bleacher Creatures”. It’s a pretty long film of parents at kids sporting events making COMPLETE ASSES OF THEMSLEVES!

Please; think before who shout out nonsense in the stands. Those of us who have attended many games at this level would swear the most mature behavior is often on the field. (Except when some punk is trying to drill Bernie Johnson!) ;)

[njcurveball]

but pitching inside is not an exact science. Even if you do it more than most, it’s not your normal arm slot and when you release the ball high your margin of error increases.



This is spot on correct. One example where an observer would swear I hit someone on purpose was probably the most flagrant inside pitch I have thrown in the last 10 years.

The guy I hit was immediately ready to fight me. However, the "other side" is that he was (and is) one of my best friends in baseball and the pitch that was intended to be high and tight, went higher and tighter and hit him square on the helmet.

I guess this is just like saying a jockey is stiffing a horse, if you don't really know, then you don't really know.

Jim

[cj]

If we all posted when we knew something with 100% certainty, it would be an awfully boring place.

As for the parents, that is certainly true. I referee basketball and have moved up the ladder pretty quickly. I hate nothing more than going back to do the grade school kids, and it has nothing to do with the kids. I am a very easy going guy, despite how I come across on the board sometimes, so the over the top parents don't bother me too much. I usually just point out quietly that the example they are setting is the one the kids will think is acceptable.

[DanG]

As for the parents, that is certainly true. I usually just point out quietly that the example they are setting is the one the kids will think is acceptable.
Yes;

It’s normally easy to resolve these things when the parents ban together to make the offender feel like…a jerk. But I did have to throw out a drunk by his shirt collar when he went into a 4-letter tirade at a 10yo and under girl’s softball game!

I’ve noticed over the years it’s usually the frustrated / former athlete who acts up the most at their kids games.

One more piece of ‘thread drift to illustrate the point;

My daughter is a great softball player and when she was 12 her team would routinely win early with the 10 run mercy rule. I was watching with my x when she slid into 3rd and got hurt in a lopsided game. The mother behind us said…”Good, I hope she broke her leg”.

Again…many times the real maturity is on the field.

[cj]

Which is why gossip makes the front page I guess. It would be different I bet, if someone said you were a crook though and you were not here to defend yourself. Or accused you of assault?

This is basically what you have done with Lopez and Clemens, knowing full well they are not here to offer any defense.

If Marichal hits someone with a bat, there is pure intent there. No question about it. Clemens or any other pitcher doing their job of brushing a batter off the plate is far from that.

Jim

We'll just have to disagree. It isn't like I'm alone in thinking Clemens intentionally hit Piazza. His current situation probably explains a lot of his behavior.

If we could only criticize members signed up here, it would also be an awfully boring place. Lopez, for example, is good for discussion. If people want to go watch replays, they can do so and form their own opinion.

[njcurveball]

We'll just have to disagree. It isn't like I'm alone in thinking Clemens intentionally hit Piazza. His current situation probably explains a lot of his behavior.

If we could only criticize members signed up here, it would also be an awfully boring place. Lopez, for example, is good for discussion. If people want to go watch replays, they can do so and form their own opinion.


I think you should just take a breath my friend, I deleted that post right after I wrote it. No sense going nuts now.

[cj]

I think you should just take a breath my friend, I deleted that post right after I wrote it. No sense going nuts now.

Going nuts? Huh? Take a breath? Whatever dude.

[PaceAdvantage]

Going nuts? Huh? Take a breath? Whatever dude.You know, I never really pictured you as a "dude" kind of guy....I've been known to throw a dude or two into some of my posts as well....good change of pace (:eek: )

[JustRalph]

You know, I never really pictured you as a "dude" kind of guy....I've been known to throw a dude or two into some of my posts as well....good change of pace (:eek: )

Give him a break, he is almost retired :lol: :lol:

[cj]

It is my own personal tribute to Jeffrey Lebowski. It think it has also inspired a signature change.

[Bubbles]

Moderators taking the thread off topic...have you no shame?! :p

Bottom line, nobody's going to take anything out of this hearing. Both guys have credibility issues, and Congress isn't happy.

This is news...how?

[46zilzal]

The rocket is getting a grilling today.

Holding up fairly well.

[cj]

The rocket is getting a grilling today.

Holding up fairly well.

Fairly well if you mean "he is sticking to his lies". ;)

[Bubbles]

I'd lay even money that this guy Burton is a Yankee, Red Sox, Astro, or Blue Jay fan. Looked like he was going to jump over the table to punch McNamee out! :faint:

[cj]

We can rule out Astros and Blue Jays. Neither of them have any fans.

[OTM Al]

I made it through 3 minute before the pompous nature of these idiot congressmen bored me to tears. Pure stupidity and a waste of time and tax dollars.

[Bubbles]

"Mr. Clemens, what uniform will you wear into the Hall of Fame?"

Give me a break.

[Marshall Bennett]

None of this shit will ever go to trial . The players's credibility have been wasted by this " three ring circus " . All partys lose , let the media have their field day !!
At the end of the day however , Clemens is the biggest loser . He'll lose all trust with the fans .. and without them , he's nobody !!

[melman]

I think it's McNamee who is sticking to his "pack of lies". :)

[melman]

According to McNamee, Clemens first raised the subject of steriods not long after McNamee saw Canseco and Clemens at a June 1998 party. At the time, Canseco and Clemens were teammates on the Blue Jays, and McNamee was working for the team. Canseco says in his affidavit Clemens was not at that party.

The first mention of Clemens name in the Mitchell Report is on page 167. On the very next page comes McNamee's account of a "lunch party that Canseco hosted at his home in Miami." "McNamee stated that, during this luncheon, he observed Clemens, Canseco, and another person he did not know meeting inside Canseco's house, although McNamee did not personally attend that meeting" the Mitchell Report says.

In his affidavit, Canseco said, "I speciafically recall that Clemens DID NOT come to the bar-b-que. I remember this because I was disappointed that he did not attend. I later learned that he had a golfing commitment that day and could not attend.

Canseco continued, "I have played on three teams with Roger Clemens and I have NO REASON to believe that he has ever used steriods, HGH,or any other PED."

[cj]

I don't think anyone that objectively watched that could come away thinking Clemens was telling the truth. Maybe the trainer has credibility issues, but he had no answers for too many things, especially concerning Pettite and his wife.

[JustRalph]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/23342772/


the beginning of the end for Clemens. I hope his kids can get used to being searched before they visit daddy at the Federal Pen.

It took two years to indict Bonds. Clemens will be paying that last 14 mil he got from the Yankee's to Attorneys over the next two years and beyond. remember,
Clemens and his attorney are the ones who demanded this dog and pony show.

http://media.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080225/080225-clemens-bcol12p.widec.jpg