What war does to soldiers

[46zilzal]

Hardly a surprise with this incompetent folly of a war.

Soldier Suicides at Record Level

Increase Linked to Long Wars, Lack of Army Resources

By Dana Priest / Washington Post

Lt. Elizabeth Whiteside, a psychiatric outpatient at Walter Reed Army Medical Center who was waiting for the Army to decide whether to court-martial her for endangering another soldier and turning a gun on herself last year in Iraq, attempted to kill herself Monday evening. In so doing, the 25-year-old Army reservist joined a record number of soldiers who have committed or tried to commit suicide after serving in Iraq or Afghanistan.

"I'm very disappointed with the Army," Whiteside wrote in a note before swallowing dozens of antidepressants and other pills. "Hopefully this will help other soldiers." She was taken to the emergency room early Tuesday. Whiteside, who is now in stable physical condition, learned yesterday that the charges against her had been dismissed.

Whiteside's personal tragedy is part of an alarming phenomenon in the Army's ranks: Suicides among active-duty soldiers in 2007 reached their highest level since the Army began keeping such records in 1980, according to a draft internal study obtained by The Washington Post. Last year, 121 soldiers took their own lives, nearly 20 percent more than in 2006.

UPI reports :

As many as 1 of every 10 soldiers from the war on terror evacuated to the Army's biggest hospital in Europe was sent there for mental problems.

Between 8 and 10 percent of nearly 12,000 soldiers from the war on terror, mostly from Iraq, treated at the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany had "psychiatric or behavioral health issues," according to the commander of the hospital, Col. Rhonda Cornum.

That means about 1,000 soldiers were evacuated for mental problems.

The hospital has treated 11,754 soldiers from the war on terror, with 9,651 from Iraq and the rest from Afghanistan, according to data released by the hospital.

[Snag]

Tell us what you would be suprised about 46. Please?

War is HELL no matter how long or who is fighting it. Maybe you know how to fight a war without these type of problems. If so, I'm very sure there are many who would like to hear how it's done.

Restating your position does not make it go away. We already know you hate President Bush.

[kenwoodallpromos]

WHAT THE KIND OF A STUDY DO YOU TAKE AS GOSPEL THAT HAS ONLY ONE (1) WAR TO GLEAN FROM?
46, this is the biggerst pile of BS you ever swallowed.
"Increase Linked to Long Wars". Maybe I missed a bunch of long wars SINCE 1980. If I did, I apologize.

[46zilzal]

Experience.

I did a senior rotation at Fort Ord hospital outside of Monterey California. In the ER we had to run to the helicopter pad one night when they brought in a child (11 months) with severe head trauma. Seems the father (a known case of PTSD) came home, beat up the wife then used the baby as a baseball bat swinging him repeatedly against the wall.

Attending in the ER was not that surprised since this fellow's problems had been well documented, but NEVER treated.

Create aggressive killers then forget to DE-PROGRAM THEM.

This has nothing to do with any specific president.

[Snag]

This has nothing to do with any specific president.

"Hardly a surprise with this incompetent folly of a war."

Then why did you refer to "this ...... war"?

[46zilzal]

War causes the same phenomenon over time, "battle fatigue" "PTSD" however one labels it: WAR and the stress sets it off.

When there is a totally un-necessary war, the unfortunates come home screwed up un- necessarily.

[46zilzal]

Another friend of mine came home from Vietnam after taking a round to the back of his right leg, nicking the common peroneal nerve. Over the months that followed his rehab, there was muscular wasting in the distribution of that nerve.

At 26 he had to walk with a cane, could barely go up the stairs while wearing a drop foot brace. He dove into a bottle of booze and nearly drank himself to death before a private concerned veterans group found him help. The VA provided nothing to the rehab of his mental state, a classic PTSD case.

War almost killed this fellow a few years after the fact.

[PaceAdvantage]

War almost killed this fellow a few years after the fact.Yup, life sucks sometimes. Lots of folks who never saw war can tell you similar stories. Shall I reproduce some here for all of us to enjoy?

Oh wait, I don't have a broken-record agenda....

But, thanks for letting me know wars have casualties (both during and long after). Without you, I never would have known this hidden fact.

[JustRalph]

Yup, life sucks sometimes. Lots of folks who never saw war can tell you similar stories. Shall I reproduce some here for all of us to enjoy?

Oh wait, I don't have a broken-record agenda....

But, thanks for letting me know wars have casualties (both during and long after). Without you, I never would have known this hidden fact.

It's a steady stream of unconsciousness :lol:

[dav4463]

"God, I love this war!".....George C. Scott as General Patton.

Didn't he say that in the movie? Did Patton say it in real life?

[PaceAdvantage]

Did Patton say it in real life?Would it shock you if he did?

[russowen77]

It wouldn't shock me. He was one crazy SOB and his son was just about as bad though much better to his troops.

Could y'all please talk about something else. I just lost a good friend this week to Agent Orange. 4th one in 2 years. There really weren't that many affected and so this is getting no play but it sucks.

War sucks. Unless you are fighting it. Then sometimes it doesn't. You would have to experience it first hand to really have a clue. Hopefully, you don't.

Unless one starts with children, like in parts of Africa for instance, one can't program troops to be killers. People aren't computers so reprogramming is for the most part out. What would be nice is to give these folks some lifestyle retraining before they send you home but it rarely happens.

However, our troops are not programmed killers. One is totally clueless if one thinks so.

[lsbets]

War sucks. Unless you are fighting it. Then sometimes it doesn't. You would have to experience it first hand to really have a clue. Hopefully, you don't.

Unless one starts with children, like in parts of Africa for instance, one can't program troops to be killers. People aren't computers so reprogramming is for the most part out. What would be nice is to give these folks some lifestyle retraining before they send you home but it rarely happens.

However, our troops are not programmed killers. One is totally clueless if one thinks so.

Very, very well put. Sadly it will fall onto deaf ears with 46 because of his overwhelming hatred for those who serve in the military.

[46zilzal]

Very, very well put. Sadly it will fall onto deaf ears with 46 because of his overwhelming hatred for those who serve in the military.
Hatred? I just find it inconceivable that ANYONE would volunteer to be a clone.

Not liking something is far from hating. That latter emotion takes too much energy and is a waste of time.

[Snag]

Hatred? I just find it inconceivable that ANYONE would volunteer to be a clone.
Not liking something is far from hating. That latter emotion takes too much energy and is a waste of time.

Hatred is an attitude too. Your attitude to those of us in or have been in the military speaks volumns about your posts here.

A military is necessary and those in it are not clones and never have been regardless of your intended put down.

[46zilzal]

Hatred is an attitude too. Your attitude to those of us in or have been in the military speaks volumns about your posts here.

A military is necessary and those in it are not clones and never have been regardless of your intended put down.
No different than your choosing to live in Iowa over North Dakota or driving an Audi over my driving a Saturn. Different lifestyles.

[bigmack]

I just find it inconceivable that ANYONE would volunteer to be a clone.
It beats being an expatriate with a free choice and becoming a complete spoon-fed, redundant, drone.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/1944.gif

[Snag]

No different than your choosing to live in Iowa over North Dakota or driving an Audi over my driving a Saturn. Different lifestyles.

For a simple mind I guess you could compare being a soldier to driving a car. Again, your attitude towards this explains alot about you.

[Tom]

Calling them clones speaks more abut your total lack of character and intelligence than anything else.

[JustRalph]

In all the units I served in while in the military, I could never ever think of any of the units or the individuals themselves as "clones" they were all different and they all were dedicated to common causes. In fact the best units I served in , there were some real characters and we didn't exactly do everything by the book etc. The exact opposite of "clones" and they were the most successful .............

[PaceAdvantage]

46zilzal's attitude towards the men and women serving in our military is NO DIFFERENT than the racist who thinks that all those from a certain race "look the same" or all those from a certain race "like the same foods" or all those from a certain race "are dumber than white folks."

Claiming that all those in the military are nothing but "clones" is no different.

Yet, I'm sure 46 would NEVER DREAM of uttering such racial comments towards a particular skin tone....

[russowen77]

Hatred? I just find it inconceivable that ANYONE would volunteer to be a clone.

Not liking something is far from hating. That latter emotion takes too much energy and is a waste of time.
Clone??? You do have the pompus act down cold dude. Of course it is just a trypical knee jerk reaction to blame the troops for the actions of I guess "non clone" politicians. I would have expected at least a little creativity from 46 but that ill thought must have been from my built in clone stupidity.

[46zilzal]

What quantum leaps!

The soldiers do what they are told. The ass at the helm is getting them killed....just like the 58,000 years ago.

[PaceAdvantage]

What quantum leaps!Actually, no leap at all. Think about it.

[46zilzal]

Fight a useless war, with no goals except some nebulous "God told me" and this results.
https://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/351/1/13

[bigmack]

46zilzal's attitude towards the men and women serving in our military is NO DIFFERENT than the racist who thinks that all those from a certain race "look the same" or all those from a certain race "like the same foods" or all those from a certain race "are dumber than white folks."

Claiming that all those in the military are nothing but "clones" is no different.

Yet, I'm sure 46 would NEVER DREAM of uttering such racial comments towards a particular skin tone....
THAT, is a spectacular analogy. It cuts right to the core of a mind that is shallow, narrow & quickly able to pigeon hole beyond belief.

[lsbets]

THAT, is a spectacular analogy. It cuts right to the core of a mind that is shallow, narrow & quickly able to pigeon hole beyond belief.

And yet Hcap, who wants to be the TOS and decency police when some guy who calls himself King speaks, stays silent as 46 continues to insult the troops. Interesting. But don't dare insult him like delay did and point that out, then he'll really get mad. :lol:

[Tom]

Does that suprise you?
:lol::lol::lol:

[hcap]

And yet Hcap, who wants to be the TOS and decency police when some guy who calls himself King speaks, stays silent as 46 continues to insult the troops. Interesting. But don't dare insult him like delay did and point that out, then he'll really get mad. :lol:
And you and PA and others stay silent when Tom calls for indiscriminate nuclear bombing of thousands of innocents.

BTW, I have no interest in being a TOS decency cop.
I don't care for the TOS used publicly to reprimand my use of "fat ass" for instance, and no similar public enforcement of da Kings use of traitor. In fact I think the TOS is PA's choice and really not necessary. But if it is to be used it should be used consistently.

[46zilzal]

I am insulting the entire idea of un-necessary war and the gullible participants who are blind to the stupidity.

[Tom]

No you're not. You are insulting the soliders.
You called them mindless clones.
What it is is discipline, No having it gets you dead.
When you get an order on the battlefield, there is zero time to debate it - you follow it at once or your or someone else gets killed. The minds of our brave troops that can do this are so far superior to your little pee-pickin' noodle it's aint even a contest.

[46zilzal]

Toe the line stupidity abounds. I recall taking my good friend back to Miramar Naval Air Station. I walked into his barracks (their unit supported fighters on carriers off the coast of Vietnam and it was between assignments). I was looking into his duffle bag and he said "That's only for inspection. All the clothes in their are brand new and have never been worn."

"What? Why even have the thing if it is just for show?"

"Yeah, kind of stupid don't you think?"

[Tom]

And your qualifications to judge this are?
I can see the drips of bile at the corners of your mouth.
YOU don't have to do it, so I don't think your opinon really matters.

[GaryG]

Toe the line stupidity abounds. I recall taking my good friend back to Miramar Naval Air Station. I walked into his barracks (their unit supported fighters on carriers off the coast of Vietnam and it was between assignments). I was looking into his duffle bag and he said "That's only for inspection. All the clothes in their are brand new and have never been worn."

"What? Why even have the thing if it is just for show?"

"Yeah, kind of stupid don't you think?"As you have been told before, were it not for brave soldiers your sorry ass would either be dead or speaking German. You would have made a good Frenchman.

[delayjf]

No different than your choosing to live in Iowa over North Dakota or driving an Audi over my driving a Saturn. Different lifestyles.
So hating those that maintain your freedom is a life style?? Perhaps you and those that share your point of view can go over to Darfur and show the military how a gaggle of undisciplined, intellectuals handles the URF or whatever warlord that's running the show. Take Michael Moore with you and make a documentary - I want to see this.

[46zilzal]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22939029/

[46zilzal]

February 5th, 2008
Dade soldier is a deserter, Army says

A Miami-Dade soldier who went public with his battle with post-traumatic stress disorder was arrested on a warrant for being a deserter, police and military officials said.

By David Ovalle / Miami Herald

Depression, nightmares and anxiety attacks plagued him after a roadside bomb obliterated his friends in Iraq.

He shared his plight with reporters and a congressional delegation. He complained about inadequate treatment and indifference from military superiors.

Diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, Army Spec. Alex Lotero was a public casualty of the Iraq War -- and now the military says he's a deserter.

Shortly after he took his case public, Lotero deserted his base in Fort Carson, Colo., in June 2007, the military said. Lotero, 21, was arrested late last week after he was discovered by Miami-Dade police in Kendall.

Miami-Dade officers were called to a domestic dispute involving Lotero and his girlfriend in Kendall, where he had been hiding from military authorities.

Officer Keyfrem Guzman ran a routine records check on Lotero and discovered the Army had issued an arrest warrant for the goateed, tattooed soldier.

[GaryG]

So.....what do you propose? Disband the military? You say only a fool would want to join. All you do is bitch about the way things are but you offer NOTHING constructive. The caps are in your honor.

[46zilzal]

So.....what do you propose? Disband the military? You say only a fool would want to join. All you do is bitch about the way things are but you offer NOTHING constructive. The caps are in your honor.
Use the military for something constructive other than line the pockets of the rutabaga's buddies.

[Tom]

What a piece of work.
Someone flush this toilet.

[GaryG]

Use the military for something constructive other than line the pockets of the rutabaga's buddies.Just what I thought....you are truly pitiful.

[46zilzal]

Just what I thought....you are truly pitiful.
Yes the taxpayer is footing the bill for the incompetence over there in a complete folly paid for by many young people's lives and sanity while the real need for intervention is in another theater altogether.

[Tom]

Just what I thought....you are truly pitiful.

No he's not - no pity for this guy.:ThmbDown:

[46zilzal]

Wake up! from time immemorial pawns have been used, and discarded in every war. Recognizing it again and again is simple.

[Tom]

Is that any excuse to ignore capital letters to begin sentences???? And to misuse commas twice in the same sentence????

C-

Wake up! From time immemorial, pawns have been used and discarded in every war.
---------------------------------------------------------No comma

[Greyfox]

Is that any excuse to ignore capital letters to begin sentences???? And to misuse commas twice in the same sentence????

C-

Wake up! From time immemorial, pawns have been used and discarded in every war.
---------------------------------------------------------No comma

And the record showed that in 2008 Tom heard a new calling -English teacher. :lol:

[Tom]

Someone has to stop 46 from butchering the language - he is embarrassing us all with his inferior writing skills. :lol:

[GaryG]

Yes the taxpayer is footing the bill for the incompetence over there in a complete folly paid for by many young people's lives and sanity while the real need for intervention is in another theater altogether.Now the military is necessary if they are deployed to your satisfaction? But you admonish every young man to shun the military. Where would your soldiers come from? You have no ideas and no solutions. Just a lot of vitriol from a bitter little man. I don't care if you are 6 foot 3....you are a little piss ant to me.

[46zilzal]

It's there it always was and probably will be. Give it a use that doesn't destroy.

[Tom]

It's there it always was and probably will be. Give it a use that doesn't destroy.

It's had a specific use since it won our freedom in the 1700's, and has served this country proudly ever since. No suggestions from arrogant trolls like you are needed. You talk a big game but are a do-nothing. You want good things - go join the peace corps. Like PA says, all talkyno ballsy. The mouth that roared. You aren't fit to clean the latrines at any base.

[riskman]

People who sit on the sidelines and say they didn’t vote for GWB or that they knew all along this War was wrong and therefore they take no blame are cowards. Those that put the blame on the Troops are worse.

Very few in America have risked anything in trying to stop the killing we are doing in the Middle East. Our news media have done everything they could to shield the American public from the realities of war. Most Americans can live their lives like this War isn’t even happening. Out of sight, out of mind.

All Americans have benefited from our War economy. Millions of us make money, either directly or indirectly from our government killing people in foreign lands.

Lots of Americans have their jobs, because we have a War going on. Yes, we all know about the Merchants of Death, who make billions off the Military Industrial Complex and they are nice to have around to blame, but it takes millions and millions of Americans to supply our War machine.

We as Americans should have a collective guilt in the killing of babies, children and woman and in Iraq. The reports differ, but they all say we have killed tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of innocent people in this war of choice.. To the rest of the world it is America’s War on Terror and we are all Americans. If we felt that what our government was doing was wrong, then the world thinks we wouldn’t have re-elected George Bush.

Sorry to say this, but every American is now painted with the same brush by the rest of the world. Maybe when the time comes, we will be able to honestly convince ourselves that we had nothing to do with America’s killing and that in no way did we benefit from all the death and destruction the United States Armed Forces rained down on Iraq. I hope you can, I know I can’t. I live here in America, better than almost anyone else lives on this planet. I was blessed to be born here. I thank God every day I am not living on two dollars a day like billions of humans are. If like me, you live the good life, in the United States, then you too are benefiting from our nation’s killing. So, for me, I have to ask forgiveness and keep trying to stop Washington’s madness. Maybe you can say, "not me."

I wish I could.

[JustRalph]

People who sit on the sidelines and say they didn’t vote for GWB or that they knew all along this War was wrong and therefore they take no blame are cowards. Those that put the blame on the Troops are worse.

Very few in America have risked anything in trying to stop the killing we are doing in the Middle East. Our news media have done everything they could to shield the American public from the realities of war. Most Americans can live their lives like this War isn’t even happening. Out of sight, out of mind.

All Americans have benefited from our War economy. Millions of us make money, either directly or indirectly from our government killing people in foreign lands.

Lots of Americans have their jobs, because we have a War going on. Yes, we all know about the Merchants of Death, who make billions off the Military Industrial Complex and they are nice to have around to blame, but it takes millions and millions of Americans to supply our War machine.

We as Americans should have a collective guilt in the killing of babies, children and woman and in Iraq. The reports differ, but they all say we have killed tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of innocent people in this war of choice.. To the rest of the world it is America’s War on Terror and we are all Americans. If we felt that what our government was doing was wrong, then the world thinks we wouldn’t have re-elected George Bush.

Sorry to say this, but every American is now painted with the same brush by the rest of the world. Maybe when the time comes, we will be able to honestly convince ourselves that we had nothing to do with America’s killing and that in no way did we benefit from all the death and destruction the United States Armed Forces rained down on Iraq. I hope you can, I know I can’t. I live here in America, better than almost anyone else lives on this planet. I was blessed to be born here. I thank God every day I am not living on two dollars a day like billions of humans are. If like me, you live the good life, in the United States, then you too are benefiting from our nation’s killing. So, for me, I have to ask forgiveness and keep trying to stop Washington’s madness. Maybe you can say, "not me."

I wish I could.

Speak for yourself. I feel no guilt nor should anyone else. Just because you find some place inside of you that thinks that Americans should feel guilt............doesn't make it so. Don't project your own character or personality flaws onto others. No Sell............

[46zilzal]

from Pretensions to Empire by Lewis Lapham...

p.262 excerpts from The Constitution in Crisis; The Downing Street Minutes ad Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, And Cover Ups in the Iraq war....examines the administration's chronic abuse of power from more angles than can be explored within the compass of a single essay. The nature of the administration's criminal DNA and modus operandi, however, shows up in a singularly vivid specimen of it characteristic dishonesty.

That President GWB comes to power with the intention of invading Iraq is a fact not open to dispute. Pleased with the image of himself as a military hero, and having spoken, more than once about seeking revenge in Hussein...he appoints a cadre of warrior intellectuals, chief among them Rumsfeld, known to be eager for the glories of imperial conquest. At the FIRST meeting of the NSA on January 30, 2001, the room discusses the possibility of a blitzkreig against Baghdad. In March the Pentagon circulates a document entitled "Foreign Suitors for Iraq Oil Field Contracts"; the supporting maps indicate the properties of interest to the various European governments and American corporations. Six months later after 9/11 Rumsfeld tells his staff to fetch intelligence "go massive; sweep it all up, things related or not that will justify and attack on Iraq. In the White House basement, Richard A. Clarke encounters GWB who tells him to "see if Saddam did this." November 21, 2001 (with no established connection between Al Qaeda and Hussein) "What have you got in terms of Iraq? I want you to get on it. I want you to keep it a secret." (footnote As early as September 20th Douglas Feith, undersecretary of defense for policy, drafted a memo suggesting that in retaliation for 9/11 the US should consider hitting terrorists in the Middle East in the initial offensive or perhaps deliberately selecting a "non- Al Qaeda target like Iraq").

By now the administration knows or has reason to know, that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 that Iraq doesn't possess WMD sufficiently ominous to warrant concern. Such is, at least the conclusion of British intelligence that can find no evidence to support a Saddam-Al Qaeda connection or international terrorism. Sir Richard Dearlove, head of M-16 finds the interested parties in Washington fixing "intelligence and the facts around the policy."

.......President Bush continues to present himself as the VICTIM of outrageous circumstance....Cheney tells Blix that unless his scouts soon find Saddam's WMD the U. S. "will not hesitate to discredit inspection in favor of disarmament;" meanwhile, having come to believe the lies stuffed into his mouth by informants paid to do just that....he appears on Meet the Press to say: "My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."

.....We have before us in the White House a thief who steals the country's good name and reputation for his private interests and personal use; a liar who seeks to instill in the American people a state of fear; a televangelist who engages the US in a never-ending crusade against all the world's evil, a wastrel who squanders a vast sum of the nation's wealth on what turns out to be a recruiting drive certain to multiply the host of our enemies. (foot note As of January 2006 the rap sheet stood a 2239 American dead together with an unknown number of Iraqi citizens; what looks to be the sum of $2 trillion already committed to The Project for the New American Century's real estate development in the Mesopotamian desert. Better reasons to impeach a president that the one pressed into service against Bill Clinton, whose penis was known to be aimless and shown to be harmless).

p.272 John Dean, White House counsel at the time of Nixon and a man familiar with the arts of bugging phones and obstructing justice, observed, in conversation with Senator Boxer, that "Bush is the first president to admit to an impeachable offense."

p. 273 Bruce Fein former attorney under Regan said of Bush that he "presents a clear and present danger to the rule of law and maintains this disregard or contempt for the other branches of government and it's that conception of an omnipotent presidency that makes the occupant a dangerous person."

p. 275 It is the business of Congress to prevent the president from doing more damage than he's already done to the people, interests, health, safety, well-being, good name and reputation of the US- to cauterize the wound and stem the flows of money stupidity and blood.


The war was a sham from DAY one

p. 263 ...describes the Bush Administration's invasion of Iraq as the perpetuation of a crime against the America people. Drawing on evidence furnished over the last four years by a sizable crowd of credible witnesses - govt officials both extant and former, journalists, military officers, politicians, diplomats ...the authors of the report find a conspiracy to commit fraud, the administration talking out of all sides of it's lying mouth, secretly planning a frivolous and unnecessary war while at the same time pretending in its public statements that nothing was further from the truth. I sometimes could counter it inducements to mute rage with the thought that if the would-be war of the flies weren't in the business of killing people, they would be seen in a troupe of off Broadway comedians in a third rate theater of the absurd.

Crap from day one no matter how many retrofit their reality on a sham.. One that has cost thousand and thousands of unnecessary deaths and hardships.

[JustRalph]

from Pretensions to Empire by Lewis Lapham...

p.262 excerpts from The Constitution in Crisis; The Downing Street Minutes ad Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, And Cover Ups in the Iraq war....examines the administration's chronic abuse of power from more angles than can be explored within the compass of a single essay. The nature of the administration's criminal DNA and modus operandi, however, shows up in a singularly vivid specimen of it characteristic dishonesty.

That President GWB comes to power with the intention of invading Iraq is a fact not open to dispute. Pleased with the image of himself as a military hero, and having spoken, more than once about seeking revenge in Hussein...he appoints a cadre of warrior intellectuals, chief among them Rumsfeld, known to be eager for the glories of imperial conquest. At the FIRST meeting of the NSA on January 30, 2001, the room discusses the possibility of a blitzkreig against Baghdad. In March the Pentagon circulates a document entitled "Foreign Suitors for Iraq Oil Field Contracts"; the supporting maps indicate the properties of interest to the various European governments and American corporations. Six months later after 9/11 Rumsfeld tells his staff to fetch intelligence "go massive; sweep it all up, things related or not that will justify and attack on Iraq. In the White House basement, Richard A. Clarke encounters GWB who tells him to "see if Saddam did this." November 21, 2001 (with no established connection between Al Qaeda and Hussein) "What have you got in terms of Iraq? I want you to get on it. I want you to keep it a secret." (footnote As early as September 20th Douglas Feith, undersecretary of defense for policy, drafted a memo suggesting that in retaliation for 9/11 the US should consider hitting terrorists in the Middle East in the initial offensive or perhaps deliberately selecting a "non- Al Qaeda target like Iraq").

By now the administration knows or has reason to know, that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 that Iraq doesn't possess WMD sufficiently ominous to warrant concern. Such is, at least the conclusion of British intelligence that can find no evidence to support a Saddam-Al Qaeda connection or international terrorism. Sir Richard Dearlove, head of M-16 finds the interested parties in Washington fixing "intelligence and the facts around the policy."

.......President Bush continues to present himself as the VICTIM of outrageous circumstance....Cheney tells Blix that unless his scouts soon find Saddam's WMD the U. S. "will not hesitate to discredit inspection in favor of disarmament;" meanwhile, having come to believe the lies stuffed into his mouth by informants paid to do just that....he appears on Meet the Press to say: "My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."

.....We have before us in the White House a thief who steals the country's good name and reputation for his private interests and personal use; a liar who seeks to instill in the American people a state of fear; a televangelist who engages the US in a never-ending crusade against all the world's evil, a wastrel who squanders a vast sum of the nation's wealth on what turns out to be a recruiting drive certain to multiply the host of our enemies. (foot note As of January 2006 the rap sheet stood a 2239 American dead together with an unknown number of Iraqi citizens; what looks to be the sum of $2 trillion already committed to The Project for the New American Century's real estate development in the Mesopotamian desert. Better reasons to impeach a president that the one pressed into service against Bill Clinton, whose penis was known to be aimless and shown to be harmless).

p.272 John Dean, White House counsel at the time of Nixon and a man familiar with the arts of bugging phones and obstructing justice, observed, in conversation with Senator Boxer, that "Bush is the first president to admit to an impeachable offense."

p. 273 Bruce Fein former attorney under Regan said of Bush that he "presents a clear and present danger to the rule of law and maintains this disregard or contempt for the other branches of government and it's that conception of an omnipotent presidency that makes the occupant a dangerous person."

p. 275 It is the business of Congress to prevent the president from doing more damage than he's already done to the people, interests, health, safety, well-being, good name and reputation of the US- to cauterize the wound and stem the flows of money stupidity and blood.


The war was a sham from DAY one

p. 263 ...describes the Bush Administration's invasion of Iraq as the perpetuation of a crime against the America people. Drawing on evidence furnished over the last four years by a sizable crowd of credible witnesses - govt officials both extant and former, journalists, military officers, politicians, diplomats ...the authors of the report find a conspiracy to commit fraud, the administration talking out of all sides of it's lying mouth, secretly planning a frivolous and unnecessary war while at the same time pretending in its public statements that nothing was further from the truth. I sometimes could counter it inducements to mute rage with the thought that if the would-be war of the flies weren't in the business of killing people, they would be seen in a troupe of off Broadway comedians in a third rate theater of the absurd.

Crap from day one no matter how many retrofit their reality on a sham.. One that has cost thousand and thousands of unnecessary deaths and hardships.

Does anybody still read this stuff when 46 posts it?

[Snag]

We as Americans should have a collective guilt in the killing of babies, children and woman and in Iraq. The reports differ, but they all say we have killed tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of innocent people in this war of choice.. .

This is the same BS that we heard from the lazy asses during Vietnam. Where was your selective outrage following 911? Should the Saudis share in your guilt trip rank too? Where were your posts about that?

The only guilt I have is that there are some Americans that only want to point fingers and "ring" their hands during a time of war but don't have the guts to point at the enemy and things they do and have done.

[Tom]

Does anybody still read this stuff when 46 posts it?

Yeah, right. Can't wait to read it.



:lol::lol::lol:

[jognlope]

This is a govt that was willing to spend $40 million to investigate sex with a girl and a cigar. ... go figure.

[delayjf]

The fact that anyone would give the downey street memo's any credibility is just idiotic. You people have no clue about what it takes to defend a nation.