Using Running Style to Spot huge Opportunities

[Kaufman Stables]

Its important to note the running style of each horse (tsn premium performances does this for you) If you have a closer with a bunch of front runners look out, also if you have a front runner with a lot of closers. you can tell the style of the horse if he takes the lead and stays in front in a few races then he is a front runner. If you see in previous races he usually comes from behind you have a closer. The best program that lets you know what each horse is does the work for you is www.tsn.com (http://www.tsn.com) under premium performance I have no affiliation with them but like their program.

For more detailed explaination and some FREE excellent tips

Go to link deleted.
Happy Handicapping

Joe

[xtb]

spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam.

[WeirdWilly]

spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam.

"I DON'T LIKE SPAM!!!!" :mad:

Instead I would like a Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top. Hold the Spam!

[rokitman]

I will also have what WeirdWilly is having but with a dab of Spam on mine, if you don't mind. :ThmbUp:

[Light]

if he takes the lead....then he is a front runner... comes from behind you have a closer.


Don't forget: when the sun shines,its daylight and when you see stars its nightime.

[Jeff P]

I have a buddy who has a t-shirt bearing the original SPAM logo... the kind you eat. Whenver we go out and he's wearing that shirt chicks are always coming up to him asking where he got such a cool shirt. It's kind of amazing how often that happens. He's a bartender and is always complaining about the late hours. I've told him a dozen times that if he really wants to quit pouring drinks... we can make millions selling SPAM shirts to guys looking to do better with the ladies. :cool:



-jp

.

[BombsAway Bob]

I have a buddy who has a t-shirt bearing the original SPAM logo... the kind you eat. Whenver we go out and he's wearing that shirt chicks are always coming up to him asking where he got such a cool shirt. It's kind of amazing how often that happens. He's a bartender and is always complaining about the late hours. I've told him a dozen times that if he really wants to quit pouring drinks... we can make millions selling SPAM shirts to guys looking to do better with the ladies. :cool:



-jp

.
http://www.spamgift.com/ (http://www.spamgift.com/)

[Greyfox]

Its important to note the running style of each horse (tsn premium performances does this for you) If you have a closer with a bunch of front runners look out, also if you have a front runner with a lot of closers. you can tell the style of the horse if he takes the lead and stays in front in a few races then he is a front runner.
Joe

It takes me less than 2 seconds to read and identify a runner's preferred style.
Why would I need a computer program to tell me that?
Quite often if you've got a group of front runners and one closer, you'll find that one of those front runners ultimately breaks away to win the race. The closer, if he runs at all, takes second or third. Shape of the race is a handy concept, but not with written in stone outcomes.

[njcurveball]

Quite often if you've got a group of front runners and one closer, you'll find that one of those front runners ultimately breaks away to win the race.

A great and often overlooked point you made here! :ThmbUp:

[rokitman]

Don't forget: when the sun shines,its daylight and when you see stars its nightime.
I was thinking that too. I'm confused about dawn and dusk though.

[chickenhead]

but what about when the horsey poops? What does that mean?

I need PPs that include the poops.

[Onion Monster]

chickenhead, I count that as a positive factor: less weight.

Maybe one of the sheets/TG guys can come up with a length conversion chart.:D

[Tom]

Length of what???? :eek::eek::eek:

[46zilzal]

Quote:"you can tell the style of the horse if he takes the lead and stays in front in a few races then he is a front runner. If you see in previous races he usually comes from behind you have a closer."

Many times a dyed in the wool early horse meets others better in the early category. The slower horse is still an early one even though he is not out front.

Conversely, many sustained horses run their races at or near the lead in a sustained pace distribution.

[JustRalph]

I can't believe this turned into a thread........... :bang:

[andicap]

spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam.

I'll have spam spam spam eggs and span; spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam but without the eggs.

[mountainman]

It takes me less than 2 seconds to read and identify a runner's preferred style.
Why would I need a computer program to tell me that?
Quite often if you've got a group of front runners and one closer, you'll find that one of those front runners ultimately breaks away to win the race. The closer, if he runs at all, takes second or third. Shape of the race is a handy concept, but not with written in stone outcomes.

Equally often in speed- laden races, one of the fronts wins by shifting smoothly -and unpredictably-into stalking mode. Lone closers are nearly as overbet as lone speeds these days, sometimes moreso because they are easier to detect. There IS no bigger sucker bet than a "lone closer" at short odds, especially in a sprint.

[sally]

Equally often in speed- laden races, one of the fronts wins by shifting smoothly -and unpredictably-into stalking mode. Lone closers are nearly as overbet as lone speeds these days, sometimes moreso because they are easier to detect. There IS no bigger sucker bet than a "lone closer" at short odds, especially in a sprint.

"unpredictably" doesn't help my handicapping abilities-- :D I'm assuming in those cases a more versatile E/P type runner would earn a closer look...

Mountainman-- expecting another speed bias at the mountain tomorrow?

[Greyfox]

There IS no bigger sucker bet than a "lone closer" at short odds, especially in a sprint.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Your point was well high lighted by yesterday's performance of big time closer #9 Hurry Up Austin in Santa Anita's 6 th race. He went off at low odds and didn't hit the top 3.

[russowen77]

One thing that i am noticing at OP is that lone P type seem to hit the board regularly though they don't seem to be winning any more than normal. There is not enough data for any really relevant statistical analysis at this time imho but it sure seems to be a nice play for exactas and tris.

Weirdly it seems to be a bigger factor in the sprints and in the 5 1/2f even more so.

FYI, I kind of make my own RS data but use an available system to identfy styles. Here is my convoluted one.

E- they need the front to win -
E/P- will take the lead but are in group 2 mainly. Just behind the main group normally. If the front runners get seperation this will be the first group to close at the start to the turn.
P- This is the group that likes to hang out somewhere about 3-5 lengths back of the leaders of a 1-2 length behind the first group.
S- who knows how far behind. Trails the field and runs late.

I put in that last part just for data about the sole P horse hitting the board well.

[46zilzal]

There is NO dyed in the wool POSITION that correlates to a racing style. I see early types 4 and 5 back in the first 3 furlongs win all the time.

[Tom]

The majority of people do not use your energy defined definitions. Early means postional to most people.

[46zilzal]

The majority of people do not use your energy defined definitions. Early means positional to most people.
Fine by me...let them meander there.

[njcurveball]

The majority of people do not use your energy defined definitions. Early means postional to most people.

I agree, but I am a few dimensions over from 46doubleZ. It does me absolutely no good knowing a horse has early energy if they are not an early type.

The race set-up is what determines the energy requirements, not the horse.

Take a one dimensional front runner and put 3 more on it's back and watch the median energy rise above 70. Now take that same horse, stretch him out to a route on the grass and leave him alone on the lead. ALL Of a sudde, the median energy goes below 67 and we have a sustained horse.

Lookng at a horse's position through energy expeniture is very much like handicapping looking at the charts. You can sound like Einstein doing it, but it benefits very little pre-race.

I will be glad to take this simple challenge. MY form will have just the running positions and no times. Challengers forms will have the energy expenditure and NO running positions. We can bet anything within reason on any race like that. :ThmbUp:

Jim

[46zilzal]

Of course the entire understanding of energy distribution and racing STYLE depends on the MATCH UP.

The essence of the Sartin methodology is to understand which horses can adapt to the match up and which are overwhelmed by it. That simple truth is the "light bulb" coming on that many take a long time to understand.

When the match up does not portray any advantage: pass, it is a simple as that.

[DanG]

I agree, but I am a few dimensions over from 46doubleZ. It does me absolutely no good knowing a horse has early energy if they are not an early type.

The race set-up is what determines the energy requirements, not the horse.

Take a one dimensional front runner and put 3 more on it's back and watch the median energy rise above 70. Now take that same horse, stretch him out to a route on the grass and leave him alone on the lead. ALL Of a sudde, the median energy goes below 67 and we have a sustained horse.

Lookng at a horse's position through energy expeniture is very much like handicapping looking at the charts. You can sound like Einstein doing it, but it benefits very little pre-race.

I will be glad to take this simple challenge. MY form will have just the running positions and no times. Challengers forms will have the energy expenditure and NO running positions. We can bet anything within reason on any race like that. :ThmbUp:

Jim
Well put Jim! :ThmbUp:


Very misunderstood as is evident by 46’s persistent ramblings confusing the issue.

[mountainman]

Mountainman-- expecting another speed bias at the mountain tomorrow?

It's been raining here since last night and the forecast sounds too murky to predict track conditions. Colder tonite and changing over to snow, but sunny tomorrow and maybe just warm enough for the surface to partially dry.

[46zilzal]

Well put Jim! :ThmbUp:


Very misunderstood as is evident by 46’s persistent ramblings confusing the issue.
Parallel understanding that is not shared is a welcome position. I have always adhered to the two roads philosophy: "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."

Being the racing iconoclast is great in the parimutuel system: I WOULDN'T WANT it any other way.

Confusing the issue? I can't help it if my understanding is not yours. I am not here to teach you what I know, just to comment with a dissenting eye.

[DanG]

Parallel understanding that is not shared is a welcome position. I have always adhered to the two roads philosophy: "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."

Being the racing iconoclast is great in the parimutuel system: I WOULDN'T WANT it any other way.

Confusing the issue? I can't help it if my understanding is not yours. I am not here to teach you what I know, just to comment with a dissenting eye.
In the interest of not creating a 30 post diatribe…you’re right. A contrarian approach is the key to the money room and you continually define your approach eloquently.

At the risk of a copy write violation…"Carry on…Carry on" ~ Hajck…

http://filer.case.edu/sjr16/media/stars_blackhole_anatomy.jpg

[mountainman]

It does me absolutely no good knowing a horse has early energy if they are not an early type.

The race set-up is what determines the energy requirements, not the horse.



Very true. I think, in fact, that the best way to tie the dynamics of distance, pace and running style into a neat and understandable package for newbies would be to imagine a horse equally adept at diverse distances. Our example horse would surge late at 5 furlongs; stalk closely at 7 furlongs; and take the lead at one mile. The hard thing to hammer home is that this horse's changeable style would not actually be a function of distance, but instead be dictated by the competition's comparative quickness and stamina.

[Light]

There is also the scenario of speed of the speed,so your expected pace duel does not happen. Or the speed of the field,breaks poorly and the other speed thought to be run into submission goes w-w at a price. Then there are horses who have never shown speed who shock everybody going w-w. Then there are the speed that decide to take back and come off the pace and cant. Then there are closers or stalkers who got into trouble in their last and decide to shoot to the front end to avoid any more trouble. Then there is the speed horse who succesfully comes off the pace after proving in their last 10 pp's they can never pass a horse.Then there is the issue of what is in the jockey's head as to where he feels like positioning his horse today.(That's when you start having favorite and not so favorite jockeys).The list goes on and on. If horseracing was a simple as running times and pole positions,it would be unreal.

[mountainman]

Then there are horses who have never shown speed who shock everybody going w-w.

BINGO. Given the huge(and WELL-advertised) roi posted by first call leaders, we would ALL be rich if predicting who sets the pace were all that easy.

[classhandicapper]

Positional preference tells you what a horse's preferred running position is and how hard the horse is likely to compete to get that position. This is typically measured using things like Quiren speed points and similar ratings. In reality, it usually just leaps off the pages at you.

Energy distribution ratings and/or pace ratings tell you how fast the horse has run and/or is capable of running to attain that position.

An analysis of the positional preferences and energy distribution/pace ratings of the various horses in a race "in combination" tell you what the energy distribution/pace rating of today's race is likely to be and what the likely positions will be.

These are two very seperate things, but they are BOTH important to the analysis even though there is some overlap.

[46zilzal]

POSITION is all relative to pace, with the rare exception of the PFR (dyed in the wool positional front runner)

An early nag runs versus a pace equivalent to Dr. Fager, he still runs early but gets no where positionally as the pace is far too fast.

Next the early one goes up against Editor's Note, sprinting, and gets way out front on a slow pace.

Third time, he runs early in the midrange of these two extremes and MIGHT be up front and might be just close.

Position means little without pace's yardstick.

[46zilzal]

True positional front runners (Hard Spun = a great learning curve colt as was Barbaro) usually are not need to leads and are the equivalent of the old carrot on a stick: they run "just enough" to be up front with a lot of options in the tank (when not distance limited like the former) to move later into a contest.

There are usually not too many in the cheaper stock which tend to be more one dimensional.

These types makes one scratch their head in the Sartin methodology (no set style) until one recognizes their distinctive Way as a new style in the E, P, S range.

[russowen77]

I don't know the whole energy scenario thing so I guess I am just blindly groping along but I do seem to be able to visualize a race fairly well through the turn.

BTW, a lone P horse just won the fourth at OP. It sure happens a lot more than a lone S.

[46zilzal]

Devilish Cris was hardly a presser. Look at the relative early/late in that race. TOP two early were there.

4th race - Oaklawn Park - February 01, 2008
Pgm Horse Win Place Show
2 Devilish Kris 13.40 7.40 17.40
7 Better Vision 34.80 53.60
11 Golden Shades 15.40

What is the optimum at OP for sprints? around +9-18...

[russowen77]

I watched the race and that is where he came from. John Servis used to be a neighbor till he bought a home here. He had a bad meet last year and I am glad to see him win one. Great guy.

Sorry, i said fourth and it was the fifth. It has been a long day.:blush:

[46zilzal]

I

Sorry, i said fourth and it was the fifth. It has been a long day.
Hoochie Glide, relative to this field was the same thing EARLY.

5th race - Oaklawn Park - February 01, 2008
Pgm Horse Win Place Show
1 Hoochie Glide 8.20 5.40 4.00
4 Pink Martini 10.20 3.60
5 Grace Happens 3.20

[russowen77]

i don't know what program you are using but there were 4 horses in that race that loved the get up close. He came from his usual place of being of being off the pace so I do get confused by your charts.

[46zilzal]

i don't know what program you are using but there were 4 horses in that race that loved the get up close. He came from his usual place of being of being off the pace so I do get confused by your charts.
They predict the energy distribution relativity. Within a range, the earlier of the distributions do much better race after race. At some courses like this one, they work for long stretches of time.

IT'S not the POSITION TODAY, but the review of the relativity of energies in the field from past races that is predictive. Position in TODAY's race is irrelevant to that.

[russowen77]

They predict the energy distribution relativity. Within a range, the earlier of the distributions do much better race after race. At some courses like this one, they work for long stretches of time.

IT'S not the POSITION TODAY, but the review of the relativity of energies in the field from past races that is predictive. Position in TODAY's race is irrelevant to that.
I will give you this. You are a man of firm opinions.

[PaceAdvantage]

In the interest of not creating a 30 post diatribe...Oh well, at least you tried....

[Tom]

They predict the energy distribution relativity. Within a range, the earlier of the distributions do much better race after race. At some courses like this one, they work for long stretches of time.

IT'S not the POSITION TODAY, but the review of the relativity of energies in the field from past races that is predictive. Position in TODAY's race is irrelevant to that.

But the topic was postional velocity, not energy distribution. Again, most do not use energy.

[russowen77]

I will give borderline personalities credit for one thing. They keep grinding away but sometimes that can make one rethink. I do need to learn more about energy distribution. back to the books. :)

[46zilzal]

I will give borderline personalities credit for one thing. They keep grinding away but sometimes that can make one rethink. I do need to learn more about energy distribution. back to the books. :)
A horse race is the essence of differing opinions: always has been. The good handicapper re-evaluates his philosophy routinely to challenge his positions. It keeps your outlook consistent and current.

Being a life-time student, constantly involved with learning what to accept and what to reject is education in a nutshell.

[sally]

Where's a good place to start for learning about energy distribution?

[46zilzal]

Huey Mahl The Race is Pace
Brohamer's Modern Pace Handicapping, but he talks of POSITION not energy distribution as the style.

many a article on the internet reviews it

[GaryG]

Where's a good place to start for learning about energy distribution?Brohamer's Modern Pace Handicapping...he uses regular english and not that sartinese jargon.

[russowen77]

Brohamer's Modern Pace Handicapping...he uses regular english and not that sartinese jargon.
I have that one.:) I have a lot of work to do.

[46zilzal]

Energy distribution boils down to the % median defining running styles....69-70 early
68 presser


down to 65-66 LATE on turf.

[Tom]

Place horse today at Aqu - Race 5....what is is running style?
These are his last four winning races.
Visually, he raced early/early presser in all four.

[46zilzal]

Place horse today at Aqu - Race 5....what is is running style?
Pace pressure changes the style. I could cherry pick isolated posts all day. AGAINST the pace in TODAY's Race, one can tell what the probable style will be today.

Listing the past performances in absentia without the competition means little other than how the horse reacted to those lines....also trouble can change things tremendously.

PROJECTION indicates what style might be today.

I'd say mostly early. After the layoff the form was beginning to take shape again.

[Tom]

You said before that is was hard wired.
He consistently raced positionally ear/EP, over dirt and poly and sprint/route.
As he did today - pressed early all the way.
It appears his herd instict is more hard wired than his energy distribution. Energy would appear to more a result than a cause.

[46zilzal]

You said before that is was hard wired.
He consistently raced positionally ear/EP, over dirt and poly and sprint/route.
As he did today - pressed early all the way.
It appears his herd instict is more hard wired than his energy distribution. Energy would appear to more a result than a cause.
EARLY just like energy distribution projected.

[Tom]

How do you get that? His last two races show declines in early and his last win was clearly late. Ealy presser, but because that is how he always runs when in shape.

[46zilzal]

One of the very BASIC tenants of Brohammer and Sartin: a horse has a best running style and when the pace match up of today's field aid that style they do well.

When the pace structure of today's contest requires that, for example, an early type is out gunned early, and becomes an E/P, they don't do as well.
AGAIN.

POSITION IN TODAY'S CONTEST IS WHOLLY DEPENDENT ON THE PACE.

That horse, basically an early, was GIVEN the pace all to himself last out and relaxed....The pace was a gift.

[Tom]

He won 4 times as early presser, sustained and early, energy-wise, but in all four, he was either leading or pressign early. This guy is pretty much right there every race.

[46zilzal]

The last ten starts tell a different story altogether. What style appears the most prominent?

[Tom]

That is what I said - he is an early-type horse who doesn't need the lead to win. His last race - a win - he ran early, but energy-wise, sustained. Postitonal was more accurate - he ran his usually early race.

Here is that race with all the recent horses who run early thrown in....

[46zilzal]

That is what I said - he is an early-type horse who doesn't need the lead to win. His last race - a win - he ran early, but energy-wise, sustained. Postitonal was more accurate - he ran his usually early race.

Here is that race with all the recent horses who run early thrown in....
I thought you would have learned by now that is the wrong readout for Aqueduct sprints...Incremental deceleration is a router readout.

As noted that last race was a gift. The field's lack of early pace GAVE him that race.

[Tom]

Well that is nice, but you have ignored my comment - he ran positionally early all the time, and energy-wise only muddles the picture of what to expect of him today. This horse runs close or he doens't fire.

[rcknhrse]

I have concentrated on early pace and the quirin speed points for several years and the bris and tsn often miss an obvious front runner or presser.Afew stand out lately.Afew weeks ago that baffert horse who went off at 50-1 did not have the highest ep or have the highest qs but he wasa the only horse n the race that got a qs for every 1 of his last 5 races.That stood out to me and i hit the ex that paid $350 for $1.

I think it was last sunday in the last from AQU.#12 stood out as a front runner but bris only gave him a 3 qs .That still baffles me.
in their defense in todays gp race 4 the qs put the $2 in the top 3 .
I dont get the 2 in my top 3 adjusted qs.

#2 nearly stole the race at 40-1 .got the place behind 5-1 #7
conclusion is ya have to do your own work.

[46zilzal]

Sea Cat (12) in the last race last week was about as early a horse as there can be.

[Tom]

Sea Cat earned 7 QSP. BRIS was wrong if the gave him only 3 - not unusual.

[mudnturf]

Its important to note the running style of each horse (tsn premium performances does this for you) If you have a closer with a bunch of front runners look out, also if you have a front runner with a lot of closers. you can tell the style of the horse if he takes the lead and stays in front in a few races then he is a front runner. If you see in previous races he usually comes from behind you have a closer. The best program that lets you know what each horse is does the work for you is www.tsn.com (http://www.tsn.com) under premium performance I have no affiliation with them but like their program.

For more detailed explaination and some FREE excellent tips

Go to link deleted.
Happy Handicapping

Joe

I believe this message from Joe was inadvertently sent to "Pace Advantage", but was intended for the folks at "PASTRY ADVANTAGE".

"To err is human, to forgive is divine."

[classhandicapper]

POSITION is all relative to pace, with the rare exception of the PFR (dyed in the wool positional front runner)

Position means little without pace's yardstick.

As I said before, the two factors are interrelated. To a large extent I agree with you. But you are wildly underestimating the positional preferences because they don't fit neatly into your theory about energy.

It goes well beyond just the one dimensional front runners that will run to their physical limit to get the lead. (though that is the most obvious example of where positional preferences come into play)

If a deep closer is in a 14 horse field and they are crawling up front, he often won't find himself in 3rd, 4th etc.. early distributing his energy the way he normally does. He will still often find himself somewhere towards the back of the pack running even slower early than he normally does and be virtually eliminated by the pace and his preference for racing behind.

There are also things in between.

Horses that tend to be pressers will often run slower than usual early when they are chasing a lone speed who's getting away with an easy pace, but they are often drawn into very fast paces when there are a lot of speed and pressers types inside the same race because they all try to get good position even if they aren't on the lead.

Having a theory and repeating the same story doesn't make it so.

You remind me of the story about the guy with a hammer. To a guy with a problem and a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Tom]

I think you hit it on the head with that one, Class!

[russowen77]

Geez, thanks class. The paceless race scenario is a tough nut to crack but I have seen exactly what you describe often and could just not get a handle on it. So much time-- so much to learn. :)

[46zilzal]

VERY few horses have the adaptability to have differing gears and differing racing styles versus variables pace scenarios. These are usually stakes animals (about 2% of all the ones running).

I'll take my chances on the other 98%.

[dav4463]

Sea Cat (12) in the last race last week was about as early a horse as there can be.


Which race was that?

[46zilzal]

Which race was that?
Aqueduct 1/27/08 9th race

[dav4463]

Thanks!

[andicap]

VERY few horses have the adaptability to have differing gears and differing racing styles versus variables pace scenarios. These are usually stakes animals (about 2% of all the ones running).

I'll take my chances on the other 98%.

Just for clarification, you're talking about racing styles as in energy distribution, NOT racing styles as most of the posters here are writing about -- position in the herd?
That has to be it because I can demonstrate about a million examples of horses who change their running styles (front of the pack, midpack, back in the back) based on the pace. For example, all those horses who run as mid-pack or pressers in sprints and become leaders in routes because the pace is slower.

What makes this issue so hopeless to argue about (but as an excellent thread to debate and explain different theories and I emphasie the word theory) is that you can't run control experiments on the race conditions or the form cycle of the horse.
If a horse runs one way today next time he could do so much differently -- EITHER in terms of position in the herd or how he distributes his energy -- for a couple of hundred reasons like distrance, track condition, form cycle which is related to state of his health, etc.
So everyone can point to races that prove their case and that only demonstrates the futility of using anecdotal evidence to make a conclusive argument -- for anything. Illustrate? Yes. Prove? No.
There is supportive and contradictory evidence for both sides everywhere.

[46zilzal]

Horses tell you they are going off form by a simple observation: in races of similar early pace the horse going off form distributes energy in with a progressive increase in % median.

This also can happen if a horse is in form but meets successively faster intermediate times, OR a horse is stretching out to distances beyond it's capabilities: Hard Spun in the Preakness and Belmont, Bob N' John in the Belmont, Scat Daddy, Stormello and NoBiz last year in the Derby.

% median is a key to understanding how a horse handles the stress of pace and the form cycle, particularly when the last three lines show a steady upswing in energy distribution to an earlier state.

Even Street Sense showed this pattern coming up to the Breeder's Cup Classic. Pico Central showed it before fading to third in the Cigar Mile. Horses of lower class show it more often.

[46zilzal]

Just last week I pointed out a morning line 5/2 at Aqueduct that showed this pattern and it did not do well as a big public choice.

From Sartin Alums:" One of the favorites in the ninth today (1 /31) at the BiG A, Aunt Tree is sucking up a lot of money but tells you he/she needs a rest as file Aunt-Tree.jpg shows.
Let's see what happens here."

Ran third with comment : Wide, no response

[njcurveball]

Ran third

It is amazing how most of your "throw outs" end up in the money. I hope you are a "win only" bettor! :faint:

[46zilzal]

It is amazing how most of your "throw outs" end up in the money. I hope you are a "win only" bettor!
No where does it say throwout, just going off form. Only in your interpretation.

[njcurveball]

Aunt Tree is sucking up a lot of money but tells you he/she needs a rest as file Aunt-Tree.jpg shows.


"sucking up money" and "needs a rest" indicates a horse who has NO SHOT to me.

[46zilzal]

"sucking up money" and "needs a rest" indicates a horse who has NO SHOT to me.
Interpret the way you like.

But let's review: Did it run well? not really.

Did it suck up a lot of money: yes

[Tee]

For all that want to know, the name of the horse in question is Aunt Teree.

[46zilzal]

For all that want to know, the name of the horse in question is Aunt Teree.
correct, it was mis- spelled

[njcurveball]

Interpret the way you like.

But let's review: Did it run well? not really.

Did it suck up a lot of money: yes

I guess you could be right on 60% of races picking against the favorite using a hat pin as well. :ThmbUp: