Smoking

[Pell Mell]

What states have the most lenient smoking laws? Are there any that still allow smoking in restaurants? I'm thinking of moving and I don't want to go to another Gestapo state.

How about seatbelt and helmet laws?

It's my opinion that states that are the first with anti-laws are the first ones to take over every aspect of your life that they can.:mad:

[46zilzal]

Smoking is up to you. You are free to disregard every study that shows it is a known carcinogen.

BUT, it is not an isolated habit. The whole cloud follows you.

There should be sequestered parts of the world to allow you to capture every bit of that smoke yourself and with the other addicted people, but not to make others breathe it.

[Mag]

Just read Allan Carr's Easyway to Stop Smoking and stop letting big tobacco control your life.

[njcurveball]

What states have the most lenient smoking laws? Are there any that still allow smoking in restaurants? I'm thinking of moving and I don't want to go to another Gestapo state.

How about seatbelt and helmet laws?

It's my opinion that states that are the first with anti-laws are the first ones to take over every aspect of your life that they can.:mad:

I cannot imagine other than the financial reason why smoking was ever allowed indoors.

I have no problem with someone else doing anything they like to their bodies. And actually would be one of the people who supported smoking in Bars if the restaurant were not attached (same airspace).

Just the part about having their clothes smell like smoke is enough to keep customers away. Not to mention the fact that a table and chair will smell like smoke for quite a while even after the smoker leaves.

I understand the addiction and you are welcome to do it. I do not know of any states that come into your house and arrest you for smoking there.

Funny thing is that I know many people who smoke who do not allow smoking in their own house, due to many of the reasons noted above.

MUCH different than seat belt or helmet laws. I know of no case on record where someone not wearing a seat belt was the cause of hurting another person.

As for the Helmet laws, it is just stupid to be riding a motorcycle at highway speeds and expect to survive a crash without one. But there again, I would let the person do it, since they are not impacting others with their own stupidity.

In NJ they have Cigar places where you can go in and smoke all you want. I would not have any problem with a Restaurant that wanted to do the same thing.

Just take off the whole crock of having smoking in a Restaurant offering a non smoking section under the same roof. Funny thing was that before they stopped smoking in Restaurants, many smokers preferred eating in the non smoking section as well.

[DeanT]

A buddy of mine and his sister went to New Hampshire recently for a day trip and she was happy cuz she could grab a beer and have a smoke in a bar there.

I dont know if that has changed tho. It was sometime last summer.

Oh, and he went and shot a machine gun there at a place who advertised it. I would hazard a guess you could shoot a machine gun while having a smoke there if you ask nicely :)

[Pell Mell]

I don't smoke! I just want to live somewhere that still has a tiny bit of freedom of choice. I lived in NJ most of my life. NJ, the crookedest state in the union. I don't need a damn billionaire like Corrizine and his ilk telling me when to fart. The same goes for NY.

I view smoking laws, gun laws and such as a barometer of what kind of police state it is.

[njcurveball]

I don't need a damn billionaire like Corrizine and his ilk telling me when to fart. .

I totally agree with you here my friend! :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

I don't smoke! I just want to live somewhere that still has a tiny bit of freedom of choice. I lived in NJ most of my life. NJ, the crookedest state in the union. I don't need a damn billionaire like Corrizine and his ilk telling me when to fart. The same goes for NY.

I view smoking laws, gun laws and such as a barometer of what kind of police state it is.
There are many many STUPID laws that I, and many of my friends, just do not adhere to. Civil disobedience.

Helmets and seat belts are another thing altogether. Don't wear them, then society has to pay in many ways.

[JustRalph]

Stay the hell out of Ohio. You can't smoke anywhere anymore. And the movement is on to make it illeg. to smoke anywhere outdoors...........and several places are working on laws to make it lleg. in your own home.


The Smoking Nazi's are everywhere.................

[betchatoo]

As of January 1st you can add Illinois to the list of non-smoking states

[Tom]

I don't smoke! I just want to live somewhere that still has a tiny bit of freedom of choice. I lived in NJ most of my life. NJ, the crookedest state in the union. I don't need a damn billionaire like Corrizine and his ilk telling me when to fart. The same goes for NY.

I view smoking laws, gun laws and such as a barometer of what kind of police state it is.

Here here!!!!!:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Dan Montilion]

The Silver State...

[chickenhead]

they outlawed smoking outdoors in the little town square nearby. I'm tempted to go buy some old diesel truck and back into a spot right near some fancy womens couture store doorway and just sit there revving it like a bastard all day long some Saturday. Fill the whole square with fumes.

I'll be sitting inside, with the windows rolled tightly up, smoking a big stogie and laughing my ass off.

[46zilzal]

See what you might be looking forward to? Lungs are usually pink.

[Tom]

Whether smoking is bad or not is not the point.
It is not the government's jobs to tell us what to do.
Non-smokers are under no obligation to go into a bar where there is smoking. Plain and simple.

[46zilzal]

Whether smoking is bad or not is not the point.
It is not the government's jobs to tell us what to do.
Non-smokers are under no obligation to go into a bar where there is smoking. Plain and simple.
But the air in there is common to all and it is a known carcinogen, albeit less of one than the direct smoke as there is no heat.

[Pell Mell]

If Big Brother gets everyone to quit smoking how will the loss of tax money be made up? I read that a congressman said we would need 22 million new smokers to support a purposed health plan for kids.

[bigmack]

If Big Brother gets everyone to quit smoking how will the loss of tax money be made up? I read that a congressman said we would need 22 million new smokers to support a purposed health plan for kids.
By collecting the taxes of the 400,000 dead each year from smoking who would otherwise be alive?
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/Factsheets/cig_smoking_mort.htm

[BombsAway Bob]

What states have the most lenient smoking laws? Are there any that still allow smoking in restaurants? I'm thinking of moving and I don't want to go to another Gestapo state.

How about seatbelt and helmet laws?

It's my opinion that states that are the first with anti-laws are the first ones to take over every aspect of your life that they can.:mad:
Foxwoods & Mohegan Sun Casinos,Ct. are two smoker-friendly NE destinations!

[Libertus1]

If a smoking ban causes a private business like a bar/restaurant ultimately to go out of business, the owner may have the right to compensation from the government under the following:

Regulatory taking

Regulatory taking refers to a situation in which a government regulates a property to such a degree that the regulation effectively amounts to an exercise of the government's eminent domain power without actually divesting the property's owner of title to the property.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_taking

[Ron]

I don't smoke! I just want to live somewhere that still has a tiny bit of freedom of choice. I lived in NJ most of my life. NJ, the crookedest state in the union. I don't need a damn billionaire like Corrizine and his ilk telling me when to fart. The same goes for NY.

I view smoking laws, gun laws and such as a barometer of what kind of police state it is.

You can't associate freedom of choice and smoking. You are free to smoke in your own house, just no where near me.

NJ just changed their smoking laws recently didn't they?

[Robert Goren]

In Lincoln, Ne where I live they passed a no smoking law. The bar owners petition to put it a vote of the people. The bar owners spent a lot money trying to get repeled. The anti-smokers spent nothing. The repeal effort failed by a 3 to 1 margin. So the law stayed but bitching by the smokers cotinued.

[price]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSt0NEESrUA&feature=related

[njcurveball]

If a Bar Owner wants to alienate non-smokers and allow smoking in their place, I would tell them to "go for it". Since the place should only be serving people over 21, then it should get an "adult exemption".

Funny thing is that most bars that have not whined and bitched about the law actually have improved their bottom line, since 75%+ of the general population are non smokers and many of them prefer to go to places where they do not have to inhale smoke.

Other places like Bowling Alleys in NJ said they would be "greatly" affected by the ban and since the law was passed, it has been business as usual for them.

But here again, I would say if they have a bar and can vent the smoke outside the normal bowling alley, than have at it. Amazingly enough though, they have found that some of those 75%+ of non smokers are now staying in the bar after bowling, since they do not have to go home reaking of smoke.

There is at least one bar in NJ where they have a large jar for patrons to put money in to allow them to smoke. They say the money will be used for when the bar is caught and has to pay a fine.

Now don't tell Corzine this or he will probably change the law and put his own jars in bars to fill the state coffers. :faint:

[rastajenk]

Kentucky has no smoking restrictions (big surprise); when Ohio enacted its ban, there was some hubbub here in the Cincinnati area about bar/restaurant patrons taking all their business across the river, and that bars and clubs over here would go under. It hasn't happened. Those that go south to smoke pass by those who come north for smoke-free wining and dining, and it's probably an economic wash.

The libertarian in me is against this kind of infringement. The practical side of me is damn glad there's no more smoking at my track. Why people felt compelled to stand at my window and blow smoke at me while I punch their tickets is beyond me. Bottom-level rudeness, for sure.

[DeanT]

The libertarian in me is against this kind of infringement.

I find I am that way too.

Kind of like free speech. You take the good with the bad, but be sure as hell happy we are free to have both.

I want the market to sort it out. If bar A is smoky and I care about it, I wil go to bar B which is non smoking. And so on. If the market demands that all are non smoking, fine, if not, welll fine too.

Most of these type laws are social engineering at their most banal level anyway. And as a rule I am against such things.

[JustRalph]

If a smoking ban causes a private business like a bar/restaurant ultimately to go out of business, the owner may have the right to compensation from the government under the following:

Regulatory taking

Regulatory taking refers to a situation in which a government regulates a property to such a degree that the regulation effectively amounts to an exercise of the government's eminent domain power without actually divesting the property's owner of title to the property.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_taking

This is actually under discussion in Ohio. Several law firms are actually holding meetings on acting on this...............

60 percent of the bars in some cities have reported they are "severely damaged" by the law and it is reported that 8 percent of all bars have gone out of business since the laws passed. The rest are ignoring the law and paying the fines.........it is cheaper than going out of business.

Here is another example. North Carolina passed a law wherein every bar in the state must recycle all alcoholic beverage containers. They must pay to have them picked up and recycled every week/month etc. If you are caught trashing beer bottles etc.......you will be fined.

[trying2win]

I reside in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. For quite awhile now there have been increasing clampdowns on smoking in indoor workplaces etc. in our city. Hooray for that! Of course the smokers whined and complained. Tough bananas!

Bars, restaurant and bingo halls were preaching doom and gloom for their businesses if tough, no smoking laws were to be enacted. Things didn't turn out that bad that I know of.

Just recently our provincial government enacted more tough no smoking laws province-wide. Hooray again! The tough anti-smoking laws were put in place to give us non-smokers a pleasant place to work, socialize, shop, etc. and most importantly to protect us from the health hazards of second hand smoke. If the smokers complain about their 'rights' and want to light up their lung cancer sticks and continue to ruin their health over time, they have a 'right' to smoke...'right outside'!

The ironical thing is, many of my best friends are smokers, but they are very considerate when it comes to their addiction.

You can tell I'm biased! :D

Then again, if I'm not mistaken, I thought I heard an Alberta provincial government spokesperson recently saying they are working on an online gambling bill. I hope I heard that wrong! For example, I sure don't want our province trying to copy the Arizona type situation, by eliminating wagering on the races via the internet or phone betting in our province. If something like that happened, I'd quite likely be raving and ranting like the smokers. Then the anti-gambling folks would be the smug ones!

[JustRalph]

Skip Virginia, they want to outlaw trailer testes :lol:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080115/ap_on_fe_st/trailer_testicles

http://www.yournutz.com/store/images/2Flesh%20YN.jpg

[Dick Schmidt]

I have no problem with other people smoking if they want to. It did kill my grandfather and father, but what the hell. It was their choice. Just don't come to public health facilities or Medicare and expect others to pick up part of the tab for your choices. Lung cancer? Too bad, go home and die. Smoking if you like. Same with helmets on motorcycles. If you crash and split your head open, why should the taxpayers lift a finger to help you out of the gutter. Lie their and bleed. Part of having a freedom is facing the consequences of that freedom. I can see no reason why morons should expect any help when their acts catch up with them.


Dick

[MONEY]

Smoking is allowed at Sam Houston Race Track. The place has poor ventilation and Stinks like hell. I could never be in there more than a few minutes before get light headed. So I had to stop going and I can no longer enjoy live racing. Many smokers claim that they have a right to smoke, and I agree with them. But when they smoke, I don't want them to infringe on my right to breathe clean air.


Money

[JustRalph]

Smoking is allowed at Sam Houston Race Track. The place has poor ventilation and Stinks like hell. I could never be in there more than a few minutes before get light headed. So I had to stop going and I can no longer enjoy live racing. Many smokers claim that they have a right to smoke, and I agree with them. But when they smoke, I don't want them to infringe on my right to breathe clean air.

Money

I haven't been to Sam Houston for a couple of years.........but it was nothing like you describe......the last time I was there....what area are you speaking of? I don't recall any problems with smoke at all............?

[Tom]

I have no problem with other people smoking if they want to. It did kill my grandfather and father, but what the hell. It was their choice. Just don't come to public health facilities or Medicare and expect others to pick up part of the tab for your choices. Lung cancer? Too bad, go home and die. Smoking if you like. Same with helmets on motorcycles. If you crash and split your head open, why should the taxpayers lift a finger to help you out of the gutter. Lie their and bleed. Part of having a freedom is facing the consequences of that freedom. I can see no reason why morons should expect any help when their acts catch up with them.


Dick

Gee Dick, let's expand that list. Diabetes - no more treatment for those morons. Jockeys injured in a race - hey! thier choice to ride a horse. Anyone driving a car - we all know the risks to that! Anyone withcancer who cooked steaks on a grill, anyone with a bad back who got out of bed i the morning.......that should pretty much take care of health care costs - no care, no costs! :D

[MONEY]

I haven't been to Sam Houston for a couple of years.........but it was nothing like you describe......the last time I was there....what area are you speaking of? I don't recall any problems with smoke at all............?
I've only been on the ground floor and to the Jockey Club Buffet on the second floor. Anybody that's been there lately can confirm what I wrote before. Also the smoke odor gets stuck to you almost immediately when you go in. So when you leave you have to go straight to the shower or you'll walk around stinking like crap all night.

Money

[Grits]

I have no problem with other people smoking if they want to. It did kill my grandfather and father, but what the hell. It was their choice. Just don't come to public health facilities or Medicare and expect others to pick up part of the tab for your choices. Lung cancer? Too bad, go home and die. Smoking if you like. Same with helmets on motorcycles. If you crash and split your head open, why should the taxpayers lift a finger to help you out of the gutter. Lie their and bleed. Part of having a freedom is facing the consequences of that freedom. I can see no reason why morons should expect any help when their acts catch up with them.


Dick

For someone who wrote a fine post earlier, damn'd if you didn't fly ignorant when you wrote this one.

Can I remind you that OBESITY is the greatest cause of health problems in this nation. Greatest, by far. It is not smoking, it is not motorcycle riding without helmets, or any other of the aforementioned.

Now, the day and hour this great nation's population gets off it's, collectively, overweight fat ass . . . makes different choices, changes its eating habits, and gets out of the recliner, away from the television and computer . . . THEN AND ONLY THEN, have we got something to discuss regarding WHO SHOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR THE POOR CHOICES OF OTHERS.

You don't want to be responsible for my lung disease--good. I don't want to pick up the tab for your clogged arties, your diabetes, your stroke, your kidney failure, your hip replacement, your knee replacement and your various other infirmities. ALL, OF WHICH, ARE DIRECTLY RELATED, AND SUBJECT TO, YOUR LIFETIME OF MAKING THE WRONG CHOICES, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS FURTHER COMPLICATED BY CHOOSING TO SIT ON YOUR FAT ASS NOT GETTING ANY EXERCISE, WHATSOEVER.

As you can see, I'm uncomfortable with the elephant in the living room. And people seldom want to admit the state of their own choices. Anyway, I've never smoked a day in my life, but I surely know smoking is not our great cause of health related problems.

[njcurveball]

I see a pretty big Elephant here!


Cigarette smoking and exposure to tobacco smoke caused 438,000 premature deaths in the United States each year from 1997 through 2001, a new study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) finds. That translates to 5.5 million years of life lost to smoking, plus $92 billion in annual productivity losses.
The study broke out these details for each year between 1997 and 2001:

• Smoking resulted in an estimated annual average of 259,494 deaths among men and 178,408 deaths among women.

• Among adults, 158,529 (39.8%) of these deaths were attributed to cancer, 137,979 (34.7%) to cardiovascular diseases, and 101,454 (25.5%) to respiratory diseases.

• The three leading specific causes of smoking-attributable death were lung cancer (123,836), chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) (90,582), and ischemic heart disease (86,801).

• Smoking during pregnancy resulted in an estimated 910 infant deaths annually during 1997-2001.

• An estimated 38,112 lung cancer and heart disease deaths annually were attributable to exposure to secondhand smoke.

[MONEY]

For someone who wrote a fine post earlier, damn'd if you didn't fly ignorant when you wrote this one.

Can I remind you that OBESITY is the greatest cause of health problems in this nation. Greatest, by far. It is not smoking, it is not motorcycle riding without helmets, or any other of the aforementioned.

Now, the day and hour this great nation's population gets off it's, collectively, overweight fat ass . . . makes different choices, changes its eating habits, and gets out of the recliner, away from the television and computer . . . THEN AND ONLY THEN, have we got something to discuss regarding WHO SHOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR THE POOR CHOICES OF OTHERS.

You don't want to be responsible for my lung disease--good. I don't want to pick up the tab for your clogged arties, your diabetes, your stroke, your kidney failure, your hip replacement, your knee replacement and your various other infirmities. ALL, OF WHICH, ARE DIRECTLY RELATED, AND SUBJECT TO, YOUR LIFETIME OF MAKING THE WRONG CHOICES, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS FURTHER COMPLICATED BY CHOOSING TO SIT ON YOUR FAT ASS NOT GETTING ANY EXERCISE, WHATSOEVER.

As you can see, I'm uncomfortable with the elephant in the living room. And people seldom want to admit the state of their own choices. Anyway, I've never smoked a day in my life, but I surely know smoking is not our great cause of health related problems.

I have a big fat ass, but it's not because I'm lazy. It's because I eat too much. I work out 3 or 4 times a week and I walk a couple of miles every day. In any case my being fat may affect only my health, at the moment I have no health problems. But smoking can affect the health of the people in the proximity of the smoker not only the smoker's health.
Money

[Grits]

I have a big fat ass, but it's not because I'm lazy. It's because I eat too much. I work out 3 or 4 times a week and I walk a couple of miles every day. In any case my being fat may affect only my health, at the moment I have no health problems. But smoking can affect the health of the people in the proximity of the smoker not only the smoker's health.
Money

Money, I'm sorry. Please understand, its not my desire to single out anyone. That's not the point. Instead, its the thought of lambasting one vice over another.

We all have vices, and some, of course, have effect on others. Many of our vices though, have indirect affect in regard to healthcare costs.

.......there goes that rights thing again.:lol:

[Tom]

Without a big fat arse, my big fat head would tip me over!
It's a safety thing. :cool:

[Grits]

Without a big fat arse, my big fat head would tip me over!
It's a safety thing. :cool:

No, you mean your big fat BRAIN would tip you over. :lol:

And you better watch the intake on your NY Strips, and Ribeyes. Filets are more lean and better for you.

(A sense of humor is one's greater asset.)

[Lefty]

Well, i'm not a smoker but the smoking Nazis have, partially, at least, Invaded Las Vegas. No smoking in Restaurants and no smoking in bars that serve food. This means a lot of jobs have been lost inthe bars that opted to quit serving food so people could continue to smoke. You can still smoke in the Casino but not in any restaurant in the casino. The pity, is, private property owners should have a choice whether or not to allow smoking or not on their premises. But we voted and of course, people did not take into acct jobs would be lost. With this knowledge I wonder if now, the vote would come out differently?
I hear these damn irritating PSA's on the radio and they supposedly interview people, but they all extoll how happy they are we have this law. Nobody ever says they're unhappy with the law in these PSA's. Fair and balanced, right?
Wrong.

[jognlope]

First they said obesity was a high risk factor than smoking now, and then a pulmonoloigst came on and said second-hand smoke does not affect others, unless they were to breath it in through a ventilator device. He siad it was malarky. So just decide for yourself. I stopped smoking Easter Sunday and will never go back. UGH!!!!

[ljb]

This whole thread would fit nicely in the Rights thread. When individual rights, smoking, seatbelt usage, helmet laws affect others well being, they should be regulated to some extent.

[46zilzal]

Smoking and the pathology it gives rise to, are an enormous drain on the resources of health care. UNNECESSARY and PREVENTABLE.

People want to expose themselves to carcinogens? Let 'em, just don't think that the majority is going to tolerate the same exposure.

Someone has TB and what happens? A known health risk is SEQUESTERED for the health sake of the hundreds of people who would normally be exposed to that health risk.

If you want to smoke you will have to do it alone. That is all these PUBLIC HEALTH laws are stating.

[Lefty]

zilly, that's quite a stretch to equate TB with the effects of 2nd hand smoke. There was supposed to be a study in England years ago that totally discounted the fact that 2nd hand smoke was harmful. I've heard that study was supressed. Now, I don't know if 2nd hand smokeis harmful or not and i think that it is prob debatable. I do think bar and restaurant owners should be able to make the choice themselves to allow smoking or not. Thenus nonsmokers could make the choice to enter or not. I hate to see private property rights be usurped by the govt. Did I mention, here in Vegas, this law has cost jobs! Yeah, I did, i'm surprised nobody responded to that. I thght we were against things that cost jobs.

[kingfin66]

Let's face it, we live in a society where it was once highly socially acceptable to smoke, but it was taboo for a woman to have a child out of wedlock. Now, things are the total opposite. Go figure.

[46zilzal]

The only difference between second hand and original smoke is really the temperature. BOTH full of poisons and carcinogens and warmer temperatures allow for better absorption. That's it.

Smoke, a well known carcinogen is a health threat PERIOD.

I never even began to smell it until after I was not around it day in and day out and all that brown accumulation was no longer clinging to all the curtains and mirrors.

YET AGAIN, Lefty talks of hearsay without substantiation.

[njcurveball]

Let's face it, we live in a society where it was once highly socially acceptable to smoke.

Cigarettes were freely given to soldiers fighting a war, movie stars, TV stars, etc. to get society to accept this.

I have even heard Doctors were given free cigarettes back then as well. Women were "encouraged" to smoke during pregnancy to keep their weight down.

It just boggles the mind that they can market a product costing around 20 cents a pack to a consumer willing to pay $5 or more for it.

Unfortunately, they were Masters of Marketing a product which would have been pulled from the Market long ago if they did not have so many state and federal goverments addicted to the tax revenue from it.

Anyone remember brass spitoons in the lobby? How would you feel with someone chewing tobacco and spitting in a cup next to your table in a restaurant? How bout if they are spitting on the ground next to your kids as you are waiting for a ride at Disney?

The paradigm shifts of our society are unpredictable. :faint:

[Pell Mell]

The high taxation on cigarettes in NJ caused my mother and her friend to stop smoking because they couldn't afford it anymore. My mother then started to get depressed and died 2 yrs. later at the age of 94. Her friend is still going strong at 98. Go figure:lol:

[46zilzal]

The high taxation on cigarettes in NJ caused my mother and her friend to stop smoking because they couldn't afford it anymore. My mother then started to get depressed and died 2 yrs. later at the age of 94. Her friend is still going strong at 98. Go figure:lol:
in a word GENETICS. Some people eat junk never exercise, booze it up and live to be a hundred. GENETICS.

I had a patient who never ate eggs, bacon, butter, mayonainse etc. and developed Burger's disease (rapid progressive atherosclerosis) in his twenties. WHY? Genetics.

[JustRalph]

It just boggles the mind that they can market a product costing around 20 cents a pack to a consumer willing to pay $5 or more for it.


They were 2.35 a pack before the Clinton's taxed them

[njcurveball]

They were 2.35 a pack before the Clinton's taxed them


WOW! Clinton did something wrong? :liar:

[46zilzal]

Cash cow was taken advantage of by EVERYONE, not anyone in particular.
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/LIBRARY/studies/nc/nc2b.htm

[ljb]

zilly, that's quite a stretch to equate TB with the effects of 2nd hand smoke. There was supposed to be a study in England years ago that totally discounted the fact that 2nd hand smoke was harmful. I've heard that study was supressed. Now, I don't know if 2nd hand smokeis harmful or not and i think that it is prob debatable. I do think bar and restaurant owners should be able to make the choice themselves to allow smoking or not. Thenus nonsmokers could make the choice to enter or not. I hate to see private property rights be usurped by the govt. Did I mention, here in Vegas, this law has cost jobs! Yeah, I did, i'm surprised nobody responded to that. I thght we were against things that cost jobs.
Lefty,
Ok I will respond. Do you have any documented proof that this cost jobs ?
I know some here have said an increase in minimum wage would cost jobs and just the opposite is true.

[wonatthewire1]

They were 2.35 a pack before the Clinton's taxed them


Still only $2.65 in NH (?) - oh yeah, no state or sales taxes there...what's the feds gotta do with it?

And besides, half the people dying in hospitals on Medicare are COPD - so somebody's gonna be picking up that cost, might as well be the ones creating it.

I quit in July and haven't looked back

[Lefty]

lbj, do you need documents to take place of your common sense? I know 3 bar owners that let their kitchen help go and quit serving food so that smokers would continue to frequent their bars.
and zilly,
Kinda hard to substantiate a report that has been suppressed. So blve it or not, I don't care. As long as tobacco is legal i maintain that taxpaying smokers have rights too. Guess the only thing that matters to you is YOU.

[BlueShoe]

As a right wing Redneck with strong Libertarian views,I also have mixed feelings about smoking bans,and not because I quit 40 years ago.However,must say that I am in gereral agreement.If smoking only harmed the smoker then might have different views,but as we all know,second hand smoke is harmful.In my home state of California,where nannyism is rampant,the racetracks and otb's have handled it pretty well.You cannot smoke indoors,but ouside on the track apron,in the exposed grandstand seats,or other outdoor exposed area is okay.When the law was first enacted several years ago,the smokers bitched their heads off and said that they would give up racing.Guess what?,they were all back in about a week or so.Am going off topic and being sarcastic,but if the same anti-smoking regs were applied to those @*^%$ cell phones,how much more peaceful things would be.For every inconsiderate smoker that has annoyed me,there have been at least a thousand anal type cell users that have done so.

[bigmack]

For every inconsiderate smoker that has annoyed me,there have been at least a thousand anal type cell users that have done so.
Get back, JoeJoe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KT5P0zWy8c

[Pell Mell]

To get back to my original intent with this thread; it wasn't about smoking itself, it was that I was looking for a state with a minimum of regulations.

Maybe I'm just an angry old man but when people who have never experienced what it was like to live in a really free country start to tell me that they know what's best for me and how I owe them something it makes me glad that I'm 75 and won't be around to see the results of what the idiots have done to turn our country into a shithole.

My ancestors came here in the 1600s and have fought in every war this country ever had and I did my time in Korea. I don't need a bunch of damn do-gooders, who are trying to give this country away, tell me what is or isn't good for me, or try to squeeze another dollar out of me with some new regulation.

As my Grandfather always said, "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees". :mad:

[bigmack]

To get back to my original intent with this thread; it wasn't about smoking itself, it was that I was looking for a state with a minimum of regulations.

Maybe I'm just an angry old man but when people who have never experienced what it was like to live in a really free country start to tell me that they know what's best for me and how I owe them something it makes me glad that I'm 75 and won't be around to see the results of what the idiots have done to turn our country into a shithole.
I don't know that the thread has drifted far from your intention & I will say that states that are now enacting smoking regulations are behind the times and at a mimimum they should limit indoor smoking to certain areas.

With consideration that we maintain our ability to live in a free country to do as we please, I trust little in that regard is lost as these regulations merely protect the adverse effect of what people choose to do from those who choose not to do it.

The 40's 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's and earlier were laced with smoke-filled rooms for all. From what we know of 2nd hand smoke, regulations fairly ask for a separation of those that suck smoke and those that would prefer not to, as they would like to live longer.

In the end, it has little to do with the loss of freedom.

[chickenhead]

regulations fairly ask for a separation of those that suck smoke and those that would prefer not to, as they would like to live longer.

Wouldn't a "Smoking Allowed Here" sign suffice, if that was merely the intent of the regulations?

btw...was it ever mandatory to allow smoking?

What I'm wondering...is why couldn't the non smokers...some 80% of the population, not manage to support non smoking establishments? And leave some smoke filled environs for people of that persuasion?

[DeanT]

What I'm wondering...is why couldn't the non smokers...some 80% of the population, not manage to support non smoking establishments? And leave some smoke filled environs for people of that persuasion?

Because then the politico's could not social engineer and others would not be able to tell people how to live their lives.

Whatever would people do?

[bigmack]

Because then the politico's could not social engineer and others would not be able to tell people how to live their lives.

Whatever would people do?
I haven't the slightest idea how you could come up with hooey like this. While en vouge to chastise policy makers, the regulations passed haven't been driven by power issues. Far from it.

Look. Smoking is an act that affects people beyond the person doing so. Or, if you prefer, the one simply, "living their freedom". In an enclosed area, without proper ventilation, it adversely affects everyone.

The out of doors emcompasses a far greater square footage than that of enclosed areas and is fair game to smoke away.

[chickenhead]

Look. Smoking is an act that affects people beyond the person doing so. Or, if you prefer, the one simply, "living their freedom". In an enclosed area, without proper ventilation, it adversely affects everyone.

(Speaking of hooey) it does not affect everyone....it affects everyone within that enclosed area. So far as I know, adults choose what enclosed areas they enter.

You're a right smart business man Mack...with the pent up demand that has come forth from the nonsmokers of the world finally feeling empowered enough to speak up (against the presumed domination by legions of smokers)....you must be kicking yourself for not opening a chain of nonsmoking bars and restaurants back in the day...you'd have cleaned up.

But rather than actually having choice in our lives...and run the risk that the character of one place might possibly be different than other...let's mandate away.

[DeanT]

That is exactly the point Chick.

When I go into a bar and it is too loud, I turn around and leave.

When I go to a party and people are doing cocaine, I turn around and leave.

When I go into a bar and it is too smoky I turn around and leave.

When I find one that is nice, that I like, I stay. I have a drink, some chicken wings and I enjoy myself. I let the people in the smoking bar enjoy themselves too. After all, it's perfectly legal.

In none of those instances do I try to get people to turn the music down, stop doing coc, or stop smoking. I don't run to the mayor and tell him to do something about them. I don't whine to the papers. I let the market sort it out.

You asked in the other topic why people are happy? I am happy. One of the reasons I am, is because I worry about me and what I do and I spend very little time telling others how they should live their lives.

It is a nice way to be (for me). But of course, to each their own.

[Pell Mell]

Another joke about smoking; I use to go to auto auctions with some friends that were car dealers. They would bitch about people smoking and there were no smoking signs all over the place. But they would stand in a building with 22 lanes of cars coming through and there were usually 3 cars in each lane that were in the building. There was smoke and exhaust so thick you could cut it and they would stand right over the exhaust pipes and breath it in. Seems like people will tolerate anything if there's a buck to be made and to hell with the health aspect. Nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.I walk my dogs every morning and in the winter I sometimes come home with my eyes burning and tearing from the smoke from peoples fireplaces but I don't go knocking on doors and tell them to put out their fire. I'm also allergic to womens cheap perfume and have to tolerate them in movies and such places but I hear these same women bitch about smoke. Evidently what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. Hypocrites all!:rolleyes:

[Tom]

NYC has outlawed certain types of cooking oil......what's next? Mandate we eat our veggies? Governement has no business running our lives, no matter how bad our choices are. If they were so worried about bad choices that hurt us, then why did they come up this slate of presidential candiates on both sides? :lol:

[bigmack]

But rather than actually having choice in our lives...and run the risk that the character of one place might possibly be different than other...let's mandate away.
I was, and know that you were (or still are) a smoker, Chick. I’ve been through a pile of these fiats. Years ago at Spago when they only allowed smoking in the lounge, which met with outrage. (Many stories about that one, as it was one of the first).

I’ve been with the ban of indoor smoking here in CA, which met with outrage. I’ve been in a multitude of states when the ban occurred and everytime these feelings came about.

Long story short, any scenario ain’t fair to someone. Too bad for smokers, they’re in the minority.

Small town, one bar, someone wants to down some booze. The owner decided it’s a smoking establishment and anyone walking in deals with it or doesn’t walk in. What’s fair to who? The person wanting to have booze and having to adversely suck smoke or the patrons smoking that are there for booze?

If I were still a smoker I would gladly smoke outside, or in a ventilated area, as I knew then, and know now, the filth that smoking entails. Nobody can refute the filth. It’s filthy, plain & simple.

Anybody yappin' about "rights" is amiss.

[bigmack]

NYC has outlawed certain types of cooking oil......what's next? Mandate we eat our veggies? Governement has no business running our lives, no matter how bad our choices are. If they were so worried about bad choices that hurt us, then why did they come up this slate of presidential candiates on both sides? :lol:
Come on, T. It's not about how far mandates go. It's about most people saying they don't want to be in a confined space with other people doing things that are proven to have an ill-effect on them. Somebody cooks with oil? Hell, I don't care if they take a bath in it.

[Tom]

Come on, T. It's not about how far mandates go. It's about most people saying they don't want to be in a confined space with other people doing things that are proven to have an ill-effect on them.

You mean Larry Craig?

[kingfin66]

...but if the same anti-smoking regs were applied to those @*^%$ cell phones,how much more peaceful things would be.For every inconsiderate smoker that has annoyed me,there have been at least a thousand anal type cell users that have done so.

Sounds like you may want to get one of these babies. Highly illegal, but very effective.

http://www.thesignaljammer.com/

[bigmack]

You mean Larry Craig?
:lol::lol:

The overall vertex is that Dean & everyone else can say "hey, live & let live".

The difference with smoking is that it's floating in the air for others to breathe. People doing coke has nothing to do with the discussion. Loud music has nothing to do with the discussion.

We're talking about something that affects the user and those in close proximity.

Such silly points otherwise are just feable.

[DeanT]

Sounds like you may want to get one of these babies. Highly illegal, but very effective.

http://www.thesignaljammer.com/

Why is that illegal?

I wonder if you use one of those in a New York bar, while simultaneously having a smoke and drinking a bottle of cooking oil if you would explode.

[chickenhead]

Small town, one bar, someone wants to down some booze. The owner decided it’s a smoking establishment and anyone walking in deals with it or doesn’t walk in. What’s fair to who? The person wanting to have booze and having to adversely suck smoke or the patrons smoking that are there for booze?

This is America Mack...you open up a competing bar and you try to put that smokestack out of business. Guess what...maybe that town can handle two bars after all.

You're right, hardly anything is fair...if I get my lumps from the market, so be it. This hasn't been decided by the market...and no one, including you, has offered a good reason why it shouldn't be.

You talk about smoking outside....I drive by a biker bar and see a bunch of hombres huddled under the awning trying to stay dry while smoking a butt...all I can think is what a bunch of infantilized, demasculated bunch we've become. Is that a bar or a kiddie day care center? And do we understand the difference?

[bigmack]

You're right, hardly anything is fair...if I get my lumps from the market, so be it. This hasn't been decided by the market...and no one, including you, has offered a good reason why it shouldn't be.

You talk about smoking outside....I drive by a biker bar and see a bunch of hombres huddled under the awning trying to stay dry while smoking a butt...all I can think is what a bunch of infantilized, demasculated bunch we've become. Is that a bar or a kiddie day care center? And do we understand the difference?
Trust me, I do everything in my power to rid any governmental encumbrence on my life so I am no fan of personal directives, however...

I hesitate to pull this trigger but... We're talking about public safety. Smoking, & 2ndSmoke is unhealthy, correct? You can't expect people to enter public entities under unsafe conditions. Mandates generally favor the majority. Or in the least, unfavor the minority and ask them to practice their "ritual" in a well ventilated or outdoor arena.

I've rarely been to a biker bar that doesn't have a perpetually wide opening on the front to view bikes and to provide cross ventitlation. To your localized, immaculated toughies I say, quit smoking or smoke out back. They'll be unnoticed that way.

[chickenhead]

We're talking about public safety. Smoking, & 2ndSmoke is unhealthy, correct?

So are hot dogs and apple pie. Irrefutably bad for your health. And Big Macs, as well. Just as no one will likely force you to enter a Weinerschnitzel and eat a hot dog, no one will likely force you to enter a smoke filled watering hole and have a draught. You are an adult. You are a free man!

Mandates generally favor the majority.

Of course. It is always the wont of the majority to control the minority. That doesn't make is wise, or particularly defensible.

[bigmack]

So are hot dogs and apple pie. Irrefutably bad for your health. And Big Macs, as well. Just as no one will likely force you to enter a Weinerschnitzel and eat a hot dog, no one will likely force you to enter a smoke filled watering hole and have a draught. You are an adult. You are a free man!
Come on, Chick. I'd expect that from your usual stiff swimmin' around this joint but not from you.

Last time.

I ain't shovin' the dog or apple pie down your jugular. By someone smoking next to me, I'm taking in their vice.

You're right, I'm a free man & I'm asking for you to huff & puff elsewhere. It's not the end of the world. It's just that the choice you make to burn tobacco, inhale, and blow it out, is affecting me & others.

[DeanT]

So are hot dogs

Ok now you are pissing me off. Im not on your side anymore. I like hot dogs. I like them at the ballpark, and the track. And I like them with beer.

If I could dip them in New York banned cooking oil and eat them I would. Damn I like hot dogs.

:)

Chick, if I am ever in New Hampshire I will email. If you are nearby I will hit a smoking bar with you and watch the game. What the hell, good conversation trumps smelly clothes for this cat ;)

[chickenhead]

You're right, I'm a free man & I'm asking for you to huff & puff elsewhere. It's not the end of the world. It's just that the choice you make to burn tobacco, inhale, and blow it out, is affecting me & others.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one....I'm a free man too, and a non smoker (going on 13 months)....but if I did want to have a stogie (and rarely a day goes by that I don't)....I want to be able to have it indoors, like a man, not cowering out on the back porch like a criminal. You don't like it, leave. There are a whole lot of other indoors for you to choose from, that will be up to your standards. Leave the hot dogs and smokes to the rest of us.

It's too bad tho, as me and Deano will be having one hell of a good time. ;)

[MONEY]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one....I'm a free man too, and a non smoker (going on 13 months)....but if I did want to have a stogie (and rarely a day goes by that I don't)....I want to be able to have it indoors, like a man, not cowering out on the back porch like a criminal. You don't like it, leave. There are a whole lot of other indoors for you to choose from, that will be up to your standards. Leave the hot dogs and smokes to the rest of us.

It's too bad tho, as me and Deano will be having one hell of a good time. ;)

I do not remember ever finding a non-smoking watering hole before the no smoking laws were enacted. Now because of the laws I have as you said " a whole lot of other indoors to choose from"

Money

[DeanT]

and a non smoker (going on 13 months)

Well done. Now you can counsel me to quit gambling. My ROI is 0.40 this year I think. According to handicapping books, that puts me right below a retarded dart-throwing chimp.

Oops, scratch the retarded word. That can get me in trouble. :)

Have a good night fellas.

[chickenhead]

I do not remember ever finding a non-smoking watering hole before the no smoking laws were enacted. Now because of the laws I have as you said " a whole lot of other indoors to choose from"

Money

You should have opened one. You'd now be worthy of your name. ;)

[JustRalph]

To get back to my original intent with this thread; it wasn't about smoking itself, it was that I was looking for a state with a minimum of regulations.

Maybe I'm just an angry old man but when people who have never experienced what it was like to live in a really free country start to tell me that they know what's best for me and how I owe them something it makes me glad that I'm 75 and won't be around to see the results of what the idiots have done to turn our country into a shithole.

My ancestors came here in the 1600s and have fought in every war this country ever had and I did my time in Korea. I don't need a bunch of damn do-gooders, who are trying to give this country away, tell me what is or isn't good for me, or try to squeeze another dollar out of me with some new regulation.

As my Grandfather always said, "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees". :mad:

Amen!

[bigmack]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one....I'm a free man too, and a non smoker (going on 13 months)....but if I did want to have a stogie (and rarely a day goes by that I don't)....I want to be able to have it indoors, like a man, not cowering out on the back porch like a criminal. You don't like it, leave. There are a whole lot of other indoors for you to choose from, that will be up to your standards. Leave the hot dogs and smokes to the rest of us.

It's too bad tho, as me and Deano will be having one hell of a good time. ;)
Adhering to a myth that smoking with little regard as being "manly" is shall we say, a day that has passed and most certainly not the mark of a man.

I smoke no shortage of fine cigars in the most delightful of confines including hotels & restuarants that have wonderful areas to do so.

Your supposition of this: "I do what I want, where I want, irrespective of anyone" being a gauge of manhood is laughable. As well as your "devil may care" hotdogs & smokes scenario.

I can see it now, Marlon Brando in "The Wild One". Cigars & hotdogs :lol::lol:

[chickenhead]

now mack, I think that is well below you.

It's not a question of smoking being manly. That is not what I said, meant, and if you inferred that from what I said, you've diminished yourself.

Your supposition of this: "I do what I want, where I want, irrespective of anyone" being a gauge of manhood is laughable.

I didn't say that either. You're being an asshole. My take is that we all should spend less time trying to tell others what they should do, and where.

Get over yourself.

[chickenhead]

Well done. Now you can counsel me to quit gambling. My ROI is 0.40 this year I think.

My AQU UPR has been very very good to me thus far. Most everything else is.....still a work in progress.

[bigmack]

I want to be able to have it indoors, like a man, not cowering out on the back porch like a criminal. You don't like it, leave
Oh, I hadn’t realized you didn’t mean what you wrote. Without translation, anyone reading your words is an asshole?
My take is that we all should spend less time trying to tell others what they should do, and where
You still don’t get it? What are you, dense?

Smoke up dude. Tell the others if they don’t like it, leave. Afterall, you're a renagade. :lol::lol:

[chickenhead]

Oh, I hadn’t realized you didn’t mean what you wrote. Without translation, anyone reading your words is an asshole?

Like a man, i.e. not on the back porch like a dog, or hiding like a depraved criminal. The action (smoking in this case) has nothing at all to do with the "manliness" of it. It's the conditions under which the action is performed that is the point.


You still don’t get it? What are you, dense?

what can I say Mack. That's how you want to play it, be my guest. I don't agree with you...it's not a question of "getting" anything. I understand your argument fully, and reject it. Sorry you feel the need to react so poorly to that.

[bigmack]

Sorry you feel the need to react so poorly to that.
While you're deciding who's reacting poorly to what, live (as you say) unlike a criminal, or manly, knowing your stance is doomed and counter thought to yours is filled with assholes.

Or, find an establishment that welcomes indoor cigar smoking. They're all over the Golden State. Many of us frequent them and feel neither criminal or manly for doing so.

[chickenhead]

While you're deciding who's reacting poorly to what, live (as you say) unlike a criminal, or manly, knowing your stance is doomed and counter thought is filled with assholes.

My stance, that it should be possible to smoke indoors in establishments that welcome it? A stance you seem to favor, I guess:

Or, find an establishment that welcomes indoor cigar smoking. They're all over the Golden State. Many of us frequent them and feel neither criminal or manly for doing so.

what is it about this cigar club that you feel makes it such apart from your run of the mill bar? Certainly the public health issue, your reason for the ban, is fully intact. I have to say your stance is more than puzzling.

[bigmack]

Come on man. I'm not going to have a debate with someone so unaware of the facts. Have you been to a Ritz or W or any number of fine restaurants? They have cigar bars. It's not a health issue if it's a set aside room. It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.

Christ, I'm outro on this subject.

Indoor smoking is not the issue. Managing smoking in public areas is.

[chickenhead]

right, I forgot. You lounge at the Ritz, where you can smoke. But you're concerned about that poor guy in the one bar town, so you'll decide for him what he can and can't do. Pity for him, not having a Ritz nearby.

You're so out of touch it's staggering.

[bigmack]

right, I forgot. You lounge at the Ritz, where you can smoke. But you're concerned about that poor guy in the one bar town, so you'll decide for him what he can and can't do. Pity for him, not having a Ritz nearby.
You're so out of touch it's staggering.
I'll not revert to calling you an asshole though the occasion certainly calls for it, and then some.

To review your stance. You want to smoke indoors and not have anyone tell you where you can or cannot smoke irrespective of the wants/wishes/health of the others around you.

Who's out of touch?

A quick sketch of the "one bar town" scenario is that the non-smoker has to endure the ill-effects of the smoker. The smoker has no ill-effects of the non-smoker to endure.

Capish? Probably not.

[JustRalph]

Lefty,
Ok I will respond. Do you have any documented proof that this cost jobs ?
I know some here have said an increase in minimum wage would cost jobs and just the opposite is true.


related info and link

http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm

From the Above Link:

Jobs and the Minimum Wage

Economists have studied the job-destroying features of a higher minimum wage. Estimates of the job losses of raising the minimum wage from $4.25 to $5.15 have ranged from 625,000 to 100,000 lost jobs. It is important to recognize that the jobs lost are mainly entry-level jobs. By destroying entry-level jobs, a higher minimum wage harms the lifetime earnings prospects of low-skilled workers.

Proponents have been able to muddle the debate by pointing to a study done by two Princeton economists, David Card and Alan Krueger. These economists claimed to find that raising the minimum wage does not lower employment. [1] In one paper, they succeeded in casting doubt on 200 years of economic research and theory. Economists took their challenge seriously and attempted to recreate their results. It could not be done. Economists who attempted to replicate their work demonstrated conclusively that raising the minimum wage destroys jobs. [2]


And this link from Columbus.....talks about impact on small business
http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2008-01-17-0028.html

[Tom]

See that Sec???

[betchatoo]

To get back to my original intent with this thread; it wasn't about smoking itself, it was that I was looking for a state with a minimum of regulations.

Maybe I'm just an angry old man but when people who have never experienced what it was like to live in a really free country start to tell me that they know what's best for me and how I owe them something it makes me glad that I'm 75 and won't be around to see the results of what the idiots have done to turn our country into a shithole.

My ancestors came here in the 1600s and have fought in every war this country ever had and I did my time in Korea. I don't need a bunch of damn do-gooders, who are trying to give this country away, tell me what is or isn't good for me, or try to squeeze another dollar out of me with some new regulation.

As my Grandfather always said, "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees". :mad:

I agree with almost everything you have written. I am a firm believer that people should have the right to do anything they choose as long as it doesn't interfere with somebody else's rights. That is where the smoking ban touches. If second hand smoke affects others (and as much of a non-smoker as I am, I have still not been convinced that this is conclusive), then it is dangerous to have in an area where non-smokers may proliferate. I also agree that it is smelly and I hate what it does to my clothes, but I have friends who occasionally fart badly and I still see them from time to time.

To me the one thing that separates smoking from other things that are bad for you, is that it is the one legal product, that if you use it the way it is intended, will still cause you harm. If you drink moderately, it can actually be beneficial, if you eat within reason it is a necessity, but if you smoke (unless you have really good genes) it is going to do your body harm.

[chickenhead]

To review your stance. You want to smoke indoors and not have anyone tell you where you can or cannot smoke irrespective of the wants/wishes/health of the others around you.

The bullshit straw man, again. I've never heard any smoker rights advocate say allowing smoking should be MANDATORY in all public places, which is what your supposing. I'm arguing AGAINST the OPPOSITE. Get it?

I tell you what Mack...go back to your cigar club. You and the boys can have a nice belly laugh at the other schmoes standing out in the rain, and pat each other on the back and feel good about it.

Can you get this...

It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.


Do you get it, yet?

It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.

What are you, dense?

It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.
It's a room people go into for the purpose of that pursuit. You wouldn't enter if you objected.

Do they have Wifi in the special room at the Ritz?

[njcurveball]

If second hand smoke affects others (and as much of a non-smoker as I am, I have still not been convinced that this is conclusive),

BIG tobacco pays millions to advertise conflicting messages to create this doubt.

However if you want something like the "Mitchell Report" for 2nd hand smoke, you can check this out (there are many other documents as well).

United States Environmental Protection Agency. Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking: Lung Cancer and Other Disorders (http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/eimscomm.getfile?p_download_id=36793).* Office of Research and Development, EPA/600/6-90/006F, Washington, D.C., December 1992

All of them say basically some of the same things

2nd hand smoke is responsible for a significant number of lung cancer deaths each year in people who do not smoke.

2nd hand smoke is associated with lower respiratory tract infections (especially in children).

2nd hand smoke is also associated with middle ear infections and asthma in children.

Heck, even if the adults were fine, how bout we give the kids a break? I actually would be in favor of allowing bars to make their own decisions on their customer base. But restaurants and other "family" places should be smoke free, just for the respect of the kids that go there.

[chickenhead]

Heck, even if the adults were fine, how bout we give the kids a break? I actually would be in favor of allowing bars to make their own decisions on their customer base. But restaurants and other "family" places should be smoke free, just for the respect of the kids that go there.

Well that at least has some reason to it. But the fact is we've moved well beyond even this discussion. You all know that Belmont CA has banned smoking inside apartments and condos? Not outside in the common area...inside.

[njcurveball]

has banned smoking inside apartments and condos? Not outside in the common area...inside.

I would actually do the same thing if I were the owner. WIth 75% of the population non smokers, it is much easier to rent a clean smelling apartment than one that will reak of smoke for many years.

It is also much easier renting a clean smelling apartment to a smoker as well. I have not heard any stories where a smoker requests a dirty apartment that reaks of smoke. For those that smoke, do you usually request this kind of apartment? Maybe there is a market for it?

My Father (God Rest his Soul) was a 4 pack a day devoted smoker. When he had his stroke and went into the Rest Home, the bathroom ceiling (which was actually a yellow color, or cream as women say) was totally brown.

If you took a white wash rag and wiped it the rag came back brown. I don't think the room was really clean until about the 6th or 7th time this was done.

If you OWN your house or condo, then it is up to YOU to figure out if you want to compromise the resale value by all of these smells and stains. Not to mention the usual rug and furniture burns.

But if you are just renting, the owner bears the cleaning expenses when you leave. If they do not want to spend extra money for people that smoke, that is up to them.

If Smokers choose to live elsewhere, that is up to them as well. There are many houses up for sale that allow smoking.

[Lefty]

If we smokers are in such a majority, then why do a lot of us want to usurp private propery rights? Why not let each individual bar and restaurant owner make his own decision whether to allow or disallow smoking?
At the racebook, I sit in the non-smoking section and am perfectly ok with smokers having their smoking section. Not perfect, but fair.

[chickenhead]

If you OWN your house or condo, then it is up to YOU to figure out if you want to compromise the resale value by all of these smells and stains. Not to mention the usual rug and furniture burns.

Hey, I don't disagree with the thought. I've never allowed smoking in my house, even when I smoked. It is a filthy habit.

The point here, is that it's no longer up to the residents or apartment/condo owners in Belmont. The decision has been made for them. That is the sort of thing I think we can live without.

I would be just as vehemently opposed to mandating that they accept smoking.

[46zilzal]

The point here, is that it's no longer up to the residents or apartment/condo owners in Belmont. The decision has been made for them. That is the sort of thing I think we can live without.

I would be just as vehemently opposed to mandating that they accept smoking.
Then they should get it overturned or simply not comply. Whenever a law is not followed by enough people, then it can't be enforced.

[chickenhead]

Then they should get it overturned or simply not comply. Whenever a law is not followed by enough people, then it can't be enforced.

I'm sure it is getting ignored, by and large. Even around here, the people huddled in the doorways are breaking the law as you're not supposed to smoke within 100 ft. of a public doorway. But, even the cops think it's a ridiculous waste of their time to do anything about it.

I've never been a fan of unenforced laws by and large...all it leads to is selective application and abuse. The best thing is for all laws to be enforced..this will get the bad ones scrapped rather than lingering on the books forever.

[njcurveball]

The point here, is that it's no longer up to the residents or apartment/condo owners in Belmont. The decision has been made for them. That is the sort of thing I think we can live without.
.

I didn't understand this. I am totally against this! If you own the condo and want to make it "smoker friendly", have at it. It is YOUR property, you pay the taxes and bills, you should be able to make the rules.

Thumbs down for Belmont, CA! :ThmbDown:

[46zilzal]

I didn't understand this. I am totally against this! If you own the condo and want to make it "smoker friendly", have at it. It is YOUR property, you pay the taxes and bills, you should be able to make the rules.

Thumbs down for Belmont, CA! :ThmbDown:
A bit like some of the banks telling their patrons they would not honor bank card withdrawals (of the person's OWN MONEY) at a race track or OTB as they don't support wagering!

[njcurveball]

A bit like some of the banks telling their patrons they would not honor bank card withdrawals (of the person's OWN MONEY) at a race track or OTB as they don't support wagering!

Not at all, you are comparing two entirely different things here. :ThmbDown:

Smoking has physical ramifications to the people and the property. Withdrawing money is a right and I would argue long and hard with the bank that told me WHERE to withdraw my money, but that is not a good analogy for anything to do with smoking. :ThmbDown:

[DeanT]

If we smokers are in such a majority, then why do a lot of us want to usurp private propery rights? Why not let each individual bar and restaurant owner make his own decision whether to allow or disallow smoking?
At the racebook, I sit in the non-smoking section and am perfectly ok with smokers having their smoking section. Not perfect, but fair.

Hmm. Common sense. And politicos would not be able to "help" people that way. Make no mistake that's what it is. And why Pell's original post has merit.

Toronto is a classic example. A few left wing guys on the council decided that bars should be non-smoking. People got together and made it so bar owners (on their own property at their own expense) could build a room in the back, or have a floor upstairs or outside for their patrons who choose to smoke. It was ventilated and had no effect on non smokers. That should be fine right? Everyone happy? No of course not. After they spent all that money, a new council came in. They decided that no one should be allowed to smoke on bar property. Why? I guess because they saw they couldnt help people quit.

Now the law is all property - no smoke. Even on patios. Bar owners lose business and lose their hard-earned cash to boot! Give these people an inch they take a mile.

Now, it even gets more political from the hypocrisy. The provincial (ie state) gvt decides they want no smoking, even outside, on their properties. "It's bad to smoke and we will save lives" they say;which is a clever way to get people not to argue with you. Who wants to be "pro smoking". But a funny thing happens: Ontario owns (like Woodbine slots for racing) casinos. Its a $2B business. What happens? Revenue falls due to non-smoking. Then the ultimate hypocrisy: They pass a law exempting casinos from the ban!

I guess it can be summed up as the do gooders want to "save lives unless it costs them money"

It is terrible public policy to get involved in something the private market can sort out ourselves. Bars in Toronto were 95% non smoking before the ban and it seemed fine. That's why I am against this stuff.

Hell, if we let them keep doing this we'll all not be able to bet legally on the Internet in Arizona or something.

[njcurveball]

It is terrible public policy to get involved in something the private market can sort out ourselves. That's why I am against this stuff.

.

One of the most overlooked reasons we have Government is to stand up for the people who cannot stand up for themselves.

In my mind, a Bar and a Restaurant are two entirely different things. Just as a Casino and a Mall are also two entirely different things.

What is the legal age for smoking in Canada? If someone under that age can freely do business in that place, then I think the smoking law is valid.

However, if a child cannot go there, then let the business owner make their own decisions.

We all have seen the Mother holding a small child while smoking. We all have seen the babies in their strollers with the smoke being blown right in their face.

I HATE that common sense needs to be regulated but it seems it does all over the world.

One thing that isn't being said is what happens to the workers in these places. That was a big issue with the smoking ban in Atlantic City. No premium is offered to work a "smoking" game.

And many dealers will tell you it is a rare night they do not have the smoke blown in their face, especially after the customer loses.

Do we simply tell them, go find another job if you don't like it? Seems that flight attendants went through the same thing at one time.

[DeanT]

We all have seen the Mother holding a small child while smoking. We all have seen the babies in their strollers with the smoke being blown right in their face.

I HATE that common sense needs to be regulated but it seems it does all over the world.



Hi Jim,

I have seen mothers and fathers take their babies to Ku Klux Klan meetings on TV. Does it make me happy? Do I like it? Do I think it's bad?

Of course that is bad. Smoking in a home blowing smoke in a baby's face is bad. So is bringing them up on hate. So are myriad other things.

But I will stand with all of them for their right to do that. I can't legislate what they do with their lives, or how they raise their kids. And I don't want big brother doing it for me.

Recently in Toronto (our city council makes New Yorks look staunchly conservative) there was rumblings about how they were going to pass a bill to outlaw toy guns in Toronto. They felt that parents should not give water pistols to kids because it encourages them to get a gun later in life to kill people. We see this stuff every day in all walks of life. Even if I agree with things in principle (ie smoking is bad, or guns are bad in the wrong hands) I cant stand up for that nonsense because it strips away our individual freedoms as tax paying citizens and law abiding members of society.

What may be one man's common sense, is another man's freedom.

Excuse me now as I have to get a permit to repair my front steps on my own property.

[njcurveball]

But I will stand with all of them for their right to do that. I can't legislate what they do with their lives, or how they raise their kids. And I don't want big brother doing it for me.

.

You have either studied under Big Tobacco or been brainwashed by their millions in Advertising.

Their basic "plan" is to equate smoking with something else bad and then say why it should be allowed.

That takes the spotlight off the real problem which is a company making money at the expense of another persons health.

AND in giving the person THAT right, they not only hurt themselves but the people around them.

Basic principle and I am not trying to be demeaning here is that you deserve a public place where others do not infringe upon your rights. However, you do not deserve full rights to infringe on other people.

If you feel like taking a PI$$, you cannot simply open your fly and do it. Although you could in 1600. You have to go to the appropriate place, due to consideration for the public.

Other than the decency part, there is a mess that needs to be cleaned up and a smell attached to doing it that stays around after that mess.

If you prefer going to a Bar (an adult establishment) and smelling the stale beer and old tobacco smoke, that is your right. I would fight for your right.

But if you prefer going to a Preschool, sitting inside, chugging your beer and puffing on your stogie, than I would fight AGAINST your right.

The fact that we HAVE TO TELL those Preschool workers they cannot smoke by putting a law in place is very sad to me, but obviously looking at the parents it needs to be done.

Freedom is wonderful, open your fly and freely pee on the floor whenever you feel like it. If asked, simply say IT IS MY FREEDOM! :ThmbUp:

Jim

p.s. The argument above was sponsored by Big Tobacco equating something that has nothing to do with the key point to it. :faint:

[DeanT]

You have either studied under Big Tobacco or been brainwashed by their millions in Advertising.


Nope, sorry. I am just a person with an opinion. Nobody paid for it. A television commercial didn't buy it. We're still allowed to think for ourselves, which I enjoy doing.

We'll just have to happily agree to disagree on these issues.:ThmbUp:

[njcurveball]

Nope, sorry. I am just a person with an opinion. Nobody paid for it. A television commercial didn't buy it. We're still allowed to think for ourselves, which I enjoy doing.



Can you name these brands? You might be amazed at how quickly your brain has the answer. Never underestimate the power of advertising my friend! I can answer the first few and I haven't smoked a cigarette my entire life!

______ tastes good like a cigarette should.

I would rather fight than switch!

You have come a long way baby!

I'd walk a mile for a ________

Older smokers may remember these brands

Not a cough in a carload.

Less irritating to the throat.

Try the taste that's springtime fresh

Extra credit

Making smoking 'safe' for smokers!

Smoke as many as you want, they never get on your nerves.

Just what the Doctor ordered.

[DeanT]

Nope. I cant name any of those.

Based on alliteration, is the "mile" one Marlboro?

I know the Marlboro Man. And that Camel has a Camel on the package. That's about all I think.

[Lefty]

NJcurve, and who stands up for private property rights? I think the anti-smoking campaign just another smokescreen if you will, in the socialists campaign in this country to eradicate those rights. It's a slippery slope.
Legislate common sense? Then what's next? Shutting dn fast food places because kids are obese? Where does it end? If no one stands up it will probably end with the eradication of all our private property rights.
And yes, if you have a job around smokers and it bothers you, find another job.
And we're talking about smoking in bars and restaurants, so don't know where the ludicrous preschool argument came from.