Form Reversals

[Pell Mell]

Whatever happened to the practise of stewards questioning jocks and trainers about form reversals? I remember back in the forties and fifties that they would be questioned and possibly be set down for this, especially with sudden wakeups. Nowdays I see these wakeups all the time and nothing is said about it. I see horses that show no signs of form whatsoever but a leading jock takes the mount and all of a sudden it's a worldbeater. Never a question as to why.

Of course, as handicappers, we can find some obscure reason why the horse won even if it's only the fact that so and so took the mount.

Sometimes the horse is well bet and other times it's not so that's not even a clue.

I do notice that down under they question jocks all the time and probably in Europe also, so what's the reason that the practise has ceased to exist here?:confused:

[DanG]

Whatever happened to the practise of stewards questioning jocks and trainers about form reversals? I remember back in the forties and fifties that they would be questioned and possibly be set down for this, especially with sudden wakeups. Nowdays I see these wakeups all the time and nothing is said about it.

I do notice that down under they question jocks all the time and probably in Europe also, so what's the reason that the practise has ceased to exist here?:confused:
Good question PM and I hope we all use our e-mail power to bombard racing officials with this travesty.

A key reason as I see it is the fear of alienating key owners / stables. No nation on earth runs 55,000+ races a year and give owners so many options. If one jurisdiction suddenly became the ‘bad cop and starting actually enforcing existing rules; some owners would load the vans and seek more forgiving grounds.

This of course leads to the debate over a national governing body which we won’t see in our lifetime. In a republic I’m 110% for individual states rights, but selfishly our industry would benefit from a few basic uniform rules imo.

[Great Communicator]

Lol if there were no such thing as difficult to predict form reversals, the typical race odds distibution would eventually look like

1) 99-1
2) 99-1
3) 3/5
4) 99-1
5) 9/5
6) 99-1
7) 2-1
8) 99-1
9) 99-1

and only the 3 contenders would ever win.

[DanG]

Lol if there were no such thing as difficult to predict form reversals, the typical race odds distibution would eventually look like

1) 99-1
2) 99-1
3) 3/5
4) 99-1
5) 9/5
6) 99-1
7) 2-1
8) 99-1
9) 99-1

and only the 3 contenders would ever win.
Recent case in point from Australia. (The link to the article is out of date on Equidaily.com)

A complete run-off who had gone to the lead in each start was wrestled back early allowing a price to gallop home on a soft pace. The trainer and rider were called before the board and discipline was handed out. Not only was discipline handed out but a transcript of the proceeding was available.

I can’t say with certainty, but I seriously doubt if most North American officials would bother to investigate and would NEVER inform the betting public.

It’s not the individual case by case form reversal that’s the issue. We all realize these are flesh and blood creatures, but some semblance of order must be administered to maintain public trust. Especially if unusual tote action follows.

[Pell Mell]

Lol if there were no such thing as difficult to predict form reversals, the typical race odds distibution would eventually look like

1) 99-1
2) 99-1
3) 3/5
4) 99-1
5) 9/5
6) 99-1
7) 2-1
8) 99-1
9) 99-1

and only the 3 contenders would ever win.

Not so! There are plenty of races where the entries all look to have a shot and a long one wins.

I'm talking about things like; a jock is on a speed horse and breaks well and all of a sudden he takes the horse back to last. It happens dozens of times every day. There is a recent thread concerning poor rides and it seems that a lot of these poor rides are intentional. How do you explain the cases where a red hot jock takes the mount on an out of form horse for a very low % trainer for whom he has never ridden before and Bingo!

I just don't believe that most horses run so terrible one race and so good the next and vis-versa.

[john messina]

Not so! There are plenty of races where the entries all look to have a shot and a long one wins.

I'm talking about things like; a jock is on a speed horse and breaks well and all of a sudden he takes the horse back to last. It happens dozens of times every day. There is a recent thread concerning poor rides and it seems that a lot of these poor rides are intentional. How do you explain the cases where a red hot jock takes the mount on an out of form horse for a very low % trainer for whom he has never ridden before and Bingo!

I just don't believe that most horses run so terrible one race and so good the next and vis-versa.

Back in the late 70's when I often visited the NY tracks backstretch, and barns with an owner friend, a certain trainer, Oscar *****, would often perform miracles with form reversals. His most often used reason for the miracles... "We find pebbles in the hoof...Doc said maybe infection...we cut it out and he run good."

Quite often the "pebble" removal allowed the horse to win sevral races within ten days. If his horse was claimed, he'd unfortuantely get the "pebble" situation back, because their form would once again be dismal. He didn't lose many of his claimers. I wonder why.

[shanta]

a certain trainer, Oscar *****, would often perform miracles with form reversals. His most often used reason for the miracles... "We find pebbles in the hoof...Doc said maybe infection...we cut it out and he run good."



:lol: :lol:

[jeebus1083]

As supposedly impartial arbiters, track officials have to assume at face value that any horse entered is in it to win, regardless of whether the horse lost by a nose or by 100 last out. Otherwise, it is their DUTY to the public to order the horse scratched, or ruled off the grounds for failure to be competitive. When a stable enters a horse, it is implied to the racing secretary that the horse is being entered with a chance to win. When the overnights are given to the morning line oddsmaker, the oddsmaker sets a line that implies that every horse in the race has a %chance of winning, based on how he or she feels the public will bet. When we bet, it is implied on the toteboard that we or somebody else believes that a horse entered has a chance to win.

As was mentioned before, if track officials suddenly begin to question every sudden major form reversal that occurs, you're not going to be popular with the horsemen at your track, and you're going to find yourself staring at a shrinking horse population, which is key for filling cards and increasing handle. There are so many options out there for stables today that if you don't feel welcome at one track, you can ship elsewhere and generally run for about the same or more purse money.

Whatever happened to the practise of stewards questioning jocks and trainers about form reversals? I remember back in the forties and fifties that they would be questioned and possibly be set down for this, especially with sudden wakeups. Nowdays I see these wakeups all the time and nothing is said about it. I see horses that show no signs of form whatsoever but a leading jock takes the mount and all of a sudden it's a worldbeater. Never a question as to why.

Of course, as handicappers, we can find some obscure reason why the horse won even if it's only the fact that so and so took the mount.

Sometimes the horse is well bet and other times it's not so that's not even a clue.

I do notice that down under they question jocks all the time and probably in Europe also, so what's the reason that the practise has ceased to exist here?:confused:

[bigchump]

Quite often the "pebble" removal allowed the horse to win sevral races within ten days.
I don't think even Secretariat could win SEVERAL races within ten days.
Of course, I could be wrong again....

good luck
bigchump

[Pace Cap'n]

A horse in New Zealand just won four races in ten days. Another dead Equidaily link. Trainer said, "Not a problem, if you know what you are doing.".

In Australia and Hong Kong, any change in racing tactics must be reported to the stewards in advance. If you plan on taking back your front runner today, or sending your closer, you better tell them first.

[TEJAS KIDD]

As supposedly impartial arbiters, track officials have to assume at face value that any horse entered is in it to win, regardless of whether the horse lost by a nose or by 100 last out. Otherwise, it is their DUTY to the public to order the horse scratched, or ruled off the grounds for failure to be competitive. When a stable enters a horse, it is implied to the racing secretary that the horse is being entered with a chance to win. When the overnights are given to the morning line oddsmaker, the oddsmaker sets a line that implies that every horse in the race has a %chance of winning, based on how he or she feels the public will bet. When we bet, it is implied on the toteboard that we or somebody else believes that a horse entered has a chance to win.




IMO this is not true. Many times horses are entered to fill a race. The racing secretary knows it. He's the one that hustled up the entry to make a race go.
I've been dabbling a bit in ownership (Believe me, I'm ready to get out). We currently have 5 horses in training. We have entered the various horses approximately 25 times in the last 2 months of racing at Sam Houston.
We have ran only 7 starters. What has happened? We have had to either sit and wait for the right condition race to come up, or we have had to enter in races we didnt want too.
Filly A- Won opening night 5000n6m- We have entered her numerous times in State bred bottom claimers (havent filled the race) So we entered her against open company (she's gotten her doors blown off 2 times in a row) Her record is now 3/1-0-0 for the meet and I'm considering getting rid of her.
Filly B- The Hou racing secretary is only allowed to card a max 2 grass races a night/6 per week. I have a specialized bottom level turf sprinter. She hasnt been successful on dirt or going long. They have only carded 1 Open Claiming f/mare turf sprint the entire meet at HOU. So her record is 1/0-0-0 in 8 weeks of racing. If we were to enter her between her last turf sprint start and her next turf sprint start she would most certainly have terrible form. We couldnt risk entering her because of the PREFERENCE DATE SYSTEM (when races overfill, the horses with the LESSER recent last race date are preferred).
WHich leads me to Filly C. We claimed this filly to try her on the grass. We claimed her for a particular race that was in the 1st condition book at HOU. We entered her in a 15000n3l and low and behold, she was excluded. So we had to plan B and we entered her the following week against OPEN 10000 claimer on the grass. She finished in the back as she was clearly over her head. We think she handled it well and wanted to run her back at the correct level, so we've waited, all the while, passing on races on the dirt that she would most certainly be competitive in. SO now 6 weeks later, we've waited for the race to come back and guess what, It won't fill. SO now the racing secretary changed the condition to 25000n3l. Still it hasnt filled. He has now dropped it back down to 15000n3l and it's an extra for next Fridays entries.
So now on to Filly D. We claimed her off a win for 10000 at RP. She won by a handful of lengths. We've had her a HOU for 6 weeks. We've entered her probably 6 times and not one race has gone, from 10,000 to 20,000 claimers. We had to run her at DED in December because we couldnt get a race to fill in HOU. Now she's here and still on the shelf because races for her level are not filling. We have no options but to run her way over her head, or run her on the grass or drop her down.
GELDING A- We claimed him the day he won for 7500- We ran him back at RP for 15000 and was not successful. We believe he's a solid 10-15 claimer in Texas. However ,like Filly D,- we cant get that level races to fill in Hou. So we've entered him in a ALWn2X which he finished a decent troubled 2nd, and then back in a SA10000 which he finished a bad 5th. Both times we've entered him, and both times I believed we were in over our head. I would have scratched if I could have, but it doesnt work that way.
In summation, We have entered approximately 25 times-getting 7 starters to the races and only 2 times have we been in the race we were aiming to win. The other 5 races we've been in the wrong spot. I thought coming into this meeting that I'd have a good chance of winning many races. I had 4 solid fillies that we're diverse in their running class/surface preference- LOW LEVEL DIRT SPRINTER- LOW LEVEL TURF SPRINTER- MID LEVEL DIRT ROUTER-MID LEVEL CONDITIONED TURF ROUTER- and the MID LEVEL DIRT GELDING.

I think that's what happens when we see horses entered in races where they appear to have no chance. The connections were forced to enter into races where they don't belong. SO they don't try (not necessarily stiffing-just not giving horses the extra stuff that it needs to get to the wire first).
The beaten horses finish up the track, then finally they're entered in the right spot, they get the full deck from the vet and trainer,and they run a huge race, hence, reversing their form.

[jeebus1083]

Changing race strategy from what was the norm is part of racing. Reporting a change in tactics to the track officials so that they can make a public announcement is like telling the opposition in a war that you're going to attack them at 10am on January 13th. "Surprise attacks" of changing run styles are part of race-riding, so prepare to be humbled. That's why they call it GAMBLING.

A horse in New Zealand just won four races in ten days. Another dead Equidaily link. Trainer said, "Not a problem, if you know what you are doing.".

In Australia and Hong Kong, any change in racing tactics must be reported to the stewards in advance. If you plan on taking back your front runner today, or sending your closer, you better tell them first.

[098poi]

Tejas that is interesting. I had no idea the placing of horses was such a pain. That helps explain why so many times I see horses in places where they can't win (and don't).

[46zilzal]

Major form reversals can be as simple a thing as taking out an infected tooth. Too often the public is never aware of specifically what it was that changed things.

[Wickel]

Well said Tejas. But conditions are just part of the puzzle of many form reversals. I think the majority of form reversals come from horses who have had poor trips--in some cases in consecutive races. For example, if you get a stalker on the rail who is continually getting logjammed, then catches a race with an outside post--boom--form reversal! There are many more simpler factors like huge class drops (maiden special weight to maiden claiming) or moving from a major to a minor circuit. These are easy for us to spot, but to the majority I think it's difficult to comprehend why a certain form reversalls occur.

[Pace Cap'n]

Changing race strategy from what was the norm is part of racing. Reporting a change in tactics to the track officials so that they can make a public announcement is like telling the opposition in a war that you're going to attack them at 10am on January 13th. "Surprise attacks" of changing run styles are part of race-riding, so prepare to be humbled. That's why they call it GAMBLING.

I don't recall reading of "public annoucements".

[jeebus1083]

Then what's the point of connections telling the officials that they are changing tactics if that information isn't going to be disclosed to those wagering?

That is what doesn't make sense to me.

I don't recall reading of "public annoucements".

[46zilzal]

You would be really upset knowing all the information that is available to horsemen in the racing offices: unpublished works, changes to the vet's and bleeder's lists, operations some horses have undergone (nerving if it is legal), is a female in foal, etc. etc.

It often makes one wonder how any of us pick winners.

[russowen77]

You would be really upset knowing all the information that is available to horsemen in the racing offices: unpublished works, changes to the vet's and bleeder's lists, operations some horses have undergone (nerving if it is legal), is a female in foal, etc. etc.

It often makes one wonder how any of us pick winners.
That data is available to all as the racing office, at least ours, is open to the public. At Oaklawn it is in the basement and the lists are posted on the bullentin board in the little lobby.

[46zilzal]

That data is available to all as the racing office, at least ours, is open to the public. At Oaklawn it is in the basement and the lists are posted on the bulletin board in the little lobby.
Lucky you...most are not.

At many tracks, the shoe board is almost hidden if shown at all.

[jotb]

IMO this is not true. Many times horses are entered to fill a race. The racing secretary knows it. He's the one that hustled up the entry to make a race go.
I've been dabbling a bit in ownership (Believe me, I'm ready to get out). We currently have 5 horses in training. We have entered the various horses approximately 25 times in the last 2 months of racing at Sam Houston.
We have ran only 7 starters. What has happened? We have had to either sit and wait for the right condition race to come up, or we have had to enter in races we didnt want too.
Filly A- Won opening night 5000n6m- We have entered her numerous times in State bred bottom claimers (havent filled the race) So we entered her against open company (she's gotten her doors blown off 2 times in a row) Her record is now 3/1-0-0 for the meet and I'm considering getting rid of her.
Filly B- The Hou racing secretary is only allowed to card a max 2 grass races a night/6 per week. I have a specialized bottom level turf sprinter. She hasnt been successful on dirt or going long. They have only carded 1 Open Claiming f/mare turf sprint the entire meet at HOU. So her record is 1/0-0-0 in 8 weeks of racing. If we were to enter her between her last turf sprint start and her next turf sprint start she would most certainly have terrible form. We couldnt risk entering her because of the PREFERENCE DATE SYSTEM (when races overfill, the horses with the LESSER recent last race date are preferred).
WHich leads me to Filly C. We claimed this filly to try her on the grass. We claimed her for a particular race that was in the 1st condition book at HOU. We entered her in a 15000n3l and low and behold, she was excluded. So we had to plan B and we entered her the following week against OPEN 10000 claimer on the grass. She finished in the back as she was clearly over her head. We think she handled it well and wanted to run her back at the correct level, so we've waited, all the while, passing on races on the dirt that she would most certainly be competitive in. SO now 6 weeks later, we've waited for the race to come back and guess what, It won't fill. SO now the racing secretary changed the condition to 25000n3l. Still it hasnt filled. He has now dropped it back down to 15000n3l and it's an extra for next Fridays entries.
So now on to Filly D. We claimed her off a win for 10000 at RP. She won by a handful of lengths. We've had her a HOU for 6 weeks. We've entered her probably 6 times and not one race has gone, from 10,000 to 20,000 claimers. We had to run her at DED in December because we couldnt get a race to fill in HOU. Now she's here and still on the shelf because races for her level are not filling. We have no options but to run her way over her head, or run her on the grass or drop her down.
GELDING A- We claimed him the day he won for 7500- We ran him back at RP for 15000 and was not successful. We believe he's a solid 10-15 claimer in Texas. However ,like Filly D,- we cant get that level races to fill in Hou. So we've entered him in a ALWn2X which he finished a decent troubled 2nd, and then back in a SA10000 which he finished a bad 5th. Both times we've entered him, and both times I believed we were in over our head. I would have scratched if I could have, but it doesnt work that way.
In summation, We have entered approximately 25 times-getting 7 starters to the races and only 2 times have we been in the race we were aiming to win. The other 5 races we've been in the wrong spot. I thought coming into this meeting that I'd have a good chance of winning many races. I had 4 solid fillies that we're diverse in their running class/surface preference- LOW LEVEL DIRT SPRINTER- LOW LEVEL TURF SPRINTER- MID LEVEL DIRT ROUTER-MID LEVEL CONDITIONED TURF ROUTER- and the MID LEVEL DIRT GELDING.

I think that's what happens when we see horses entered in races where they appear to have no chance. The connections were forced to enter into races where they don't belong. SO they don't try (not necessarily stiffing-just not giving horses the extra stuff that it needs to get to the wire first).
The beaten horses finish up the track, then finally they're entered in the right spot, they get the full deck from the vet and trainer,and they run a huge race, hence, reversing their form.

Hello Tejas Kidd:

Let's get this right first.

Filly A: Wild Screen 5yo Mare

Filly B: Amen Sistah 6yo Mare

Filly C: Ligitmateprincess 5yo Mare

Filly D: Jet G's Courage

Gelding A: Screen Writer

If I got the right horses maybe I could be of some help but first I need to know if these are the horses.

Joe

[john del riccio]

Hello Tejas Kidd:

Let's get this right first.

Filly A: Wild Screen 5yo Mare

Filly B: Amen Sistah 6yo Mare

Filly C: Ligitmateprincess 5yo Mare

Filly D: Jet G's Courage

Gelding A: Screen Writer

If I got the right horses maybe I could be of some help but first I need to know if these are the horses.

Joe

Joe,

Did you fill in for Johnny Carson as "The Great Carnack" when he was having an off night. You are a riot !

John

[russowen77]

Lucky you...most are not.

At many tracks, the shoe board is almost hidden if shown at all.
Ask where it is.

I deal with 3 offices and all of them will help you with the published data. It might be not that easily visible but in my experience the office personnel will be glad to show it to you. They want new people to be owners. The stuff I have trouble with is vet data, at least the vet scratched list.

[retcu29]

Tejas Kidd,
Thanks for such an accurate and informative article. "What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

[ranchwest]

That data is available to all as the racing office, at least ours, is open to the public. At Oaklawn it is in the basement and the lists are posted on the bullentin board in the little lobby.

A significant portion of most tracks' handle nowadays is from off track. The information you reference is useless to anyone wagering off track.

Racing offices are geared toward serving owners and trainers.

Where's the information for patrons?

In most professional sports, there is a strong emphasis on trying to not hide medical information. In racing, it appears the opposite is true.

[russowen77]

A significant portion of most tracks' handle nowadays is from off track. The information you reference is useless to anyone wagering off track.

Racing offices are geared toward serving owners and trainers.

Where's the information for patrons?

In most professional sports, there is a strong emphasis on trying to not hide medical information. In racing, it appears the opposite is true.

I assume that one has to go to the track to get some of this data.

The racing office does support the owners and trainers. It is their job. The track office is seperate from it physically at Oaklawn. I don't know why they don't publish the data like they used to do here. The place where the old boards was placed before was in the paddock but that was before the changes were made to accomadate the slots.

[Kelso]

Early on, when I began reading the PA forums, I was very surprised to find a widely held opinion that there are too many racetracks running too many races for too many racehorses in the U.S. I think the quotes, below, add powerful support to that proposition.

And, of course, horse racing does need a strong, national, self-regulatory authority. Without one, the industry will (and soon, I fear) find itself saddled by the feds with one that will be run by perennial trough-swillers appointed by political hacks ... most of whom will know little, and all of whom will care even less, about horse racing.

Whatever happened to the practise of stewards questioning jocks and trainers about form reversals? I remember back in the forties and fifties that they would be questioned and possibly be set down for this, especially with sudden wakeups. Nowdays I see these wakeups all the time and nothing is said about it.

<snip>

I do notice that down under they question jocks all the time and probably in Europe also, so what's the reason that the practise has ceased to exist here?

A key reason as I see it is the fear of alienating key owners / stables. No nation on earth runs 55,000+ races a year and give owners so many options. If one jurisdiction suddenly became the ‘bad cop and starting actually enforcing existing rules; some owners would load the vans and seek more forgiving grounds.


In Australia and Hong Kong, any change in racing tactics must be reported to the stewards in advance. If you plan on taking back your front runner today, or sending your closer, you better tell them first.


Many times horses are entered to fill a race. The racing secretary knows it. He's the one that hustled up the entry to make a race go.

<snip>

I think that's what happens when we see horses entered in races where they appear to have no chance. The connections were forced to enter into races where they don't belong.

[russowen77]

I am getting a little lost here. It almost seems like some people who think anything good for the horsemen is bad for bettors. I would like to point out that we need horses to bet on. It is getting tougher out there for the horseman. I bet gas prices affect you for example just driving one car.

Tracks are even paying starter money now in some locals. Short field races are a problem in areas where the purses have not been able to grow as large as in others. It is part of the game.

Do many of you think we should close tracks and which ones?

[TEJAS KIDD]

Hello Tejas Kidd:

Let's get this right first.

Filly A: Wild Screen 5yo Mare

Filly B: Amen Sistah 6yo Mare

Filly C: Ligitmateprincess 5yo Mare

Filly D: Jet G's Courage

Gelding A: Screen Writer

If I got the right horses maybe I could be of some help but first I need to know if these are the horses.

Joe

Nice call.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Tejas Kidd,
Thanks for such an accurate and informative article. "What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

You lost me with the quote. Any help?

[Robert Goren]

I once saw a horse run 2nd on sat. win on the next thur, and win again on sun. the last day of the nebr. season. all at bottom claimers.

[thespaah]

IMO this is not true. Many times horses are entered to fill a race. The racing secretary knows it. He's the one that hustled up the entry to make a race go.
I've been dabbling a bit in ownership (Believe me, I'm ready to get out). We currently have 5 horses in training. We have entered the various horses approximately 25 times in the last 2 months of racing at Sam Houston.
We have ran only 7 starters. What has happened? We have had to either sit and wait for the right condition race to come up, or we have had to enter in races we didnt want too.
Filly A- Won opening night 5000n6m- We have entered her numerous times in State bred bottom claimers (havent filled the race) So we entered her against open company (she's gotten her doors blown off 2 times in a row) Her record is now 3/1-0-0 for the meet and I'm considering getting rid of her.
Filly B- The Hou racing secretary is only allowed to card a max 2 grass races a night/6 per week. I have a specialized bottom level turf sprinter. She hasnt been successful on dirt or going long. They have only carded 1 Open Claiming f/mare turf sprint the entire meet at HOU. So her record is 1/0-0-0 in 8 weeks of racing. If we were to enter her between her last turf sprint start and her next turf sprint start she would most certainly have terrible form. We couldnt risk entering her because of the PREFERENCE DATE SYSTEM (when races overfill, the horses with the LESSER recent last race date are preferred).
WHich leads me to Filly C. We claimed this filly to try her on the grass. We claimed her for a particular race that was in the 1st condition book at HOU. We entered her in a 15000n3l and low and behold, she was excluded. So we had to plan B and we entered her the following week against OPEN 10000 claimer on the grass. She finished in the back as she was clearly over her head. We think she handled it well and wanted to run her back at the correct level, so we've waited, all the while, passing on races on the dirt that she would most certainly be competitive in. SO now 6 weeks later, we've waited for the race to come back and guess what, It won't fill. SO now the racing secretary changed the condition to 25000n3l. Still it hasnt filled. He has now dropped it back down to 15000n3l and it's an extra for next Fridays entries.
So now on to Filly D. We claimed her off a win for 10000 at RP. She won by a handful of lengths. We've had her a HOU for 6 weeks. We've entered her probably 6 times and not one race has gone, from 10,000 to 20,000 claimers. We had to run her at DED in December because we couldnt get a race to fill in HOU. Now she's here and still on the shelf because races for her level are not filling. We have no options but to run her way over her head, or run her on the grass or drop her down.
GELDING A- We claimed him the day he won for 7500- We ran him back at RP for 15000 and was not successful. We believe he's a solid 10-15 claimer in Texas. However ,like Filly D,- we cant get that level races to fill in Hou. So we've entered him in a ALWn2X which he finished a decent troubled 2nd, and then back in a SA10000 which he finished a bad 5th. Both times we've entered him, and both times I believed we were in over our head. I would have scratched if I could have, but it doesnt work that way.
In summation, We have entered approximately 25 times-getting 7 starters to the races and only 2 times have we been in the race we were aiming to win. The other 5 races we've been in the wrong spot. I thought coming into this meeting that I'd have a good chance of winning many races. I had 4 solid fillies that we're diverse in their running class/surface preference- LOW LEVEL DIRT SPRINTER- LOW LEVEL TURF SPRINTER- MID LEVEL DIRT ROUTER-MID LEVEL CONDITIONED TURF ROUTER- and the MID LEVEL DIRT GELDING.

I think that's what happens when we see horses entered in races where they appear to have no chance. The connections were forced to enter into races where they don't belong. SO they don't try (not necessarily stiffing-just not giving horses the extra stuff that it needs to get to the wire first).
The beaten horses finish up the track, then finally they're entered in the right spot, they get the full deck from the vet and trainer,and they run a huge race, hence, reversing their form.
Ok I understand the reasons why horses are overmatched and have no chance to win. Or even pick up a check.
Now oin to your problem at HOU..It seems there are factors that are preventing you from recouping your investment. It looks like the situation at HOU is a screwey one. So why are you not trying another racing jusridiction? Is Louisianna not appropriate for you?
Now one of things I have noticed is there are instances where conditions of races are not conducive to those races being filled. And there are times when a nmber of horses on the grounds have "raced out of conditions". Based on that I have a question. Is it not incumbent upon the racing secretary to look over records, earnings, etc of the horses on the grounds and write races that are most likely to A) be filled and B) give the owners/trainers on the grounds, presumably these are the people supporting the track, opportunities to run their horses?

[Robert Goren]

When I first started going to the races in the 60's claiming horses ran back every week to 10 days. If a horse was off 3 weeks or so after a good race some thing was wrong with the horse. If you read some of the handicapping books from that era you find the authors thought horses running back in week was a good thing. They thought that a month off was very bad in anything other than stakes horses.

[Equipik]

Whatever happened to the practise of stewards questioning jocks and trainers about form reversals? I remember back in the forties and fifties that they would be questioned and possibly be set down for this, especially with sudden wakeups. Nowdays I see these wakeups all the time and nothing is said about it. I see horses that show no signs of form whatsoever but a leading jock takes the mount and all of a sudden it's a worldbeater. Never a question as to why.

I do notice that down under they question jocks all the time and probably in Europe also, so what's the reason that the practise has ceased to exist here?:confused:

Why should jockeys have to be scorned because the betting public does not know how to see conditioning on a horse, (or even care to for that matter)?

[TEJAS KIDD]

Tejas Kidd,
Thanks for such an accurate and informative article. "What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

I understand what you meant now.
In regards to my earlier post. I didnt mean to imply that myself and/or my trainer were not trying to win the races we were entering. Losing, is the result of running where we don't belong. We have, in the past, benefitted from poor performances in races where are horses were entered in the wrong spot(i/e Amen Sistah on the dirt, and Wild Screen on the turf) but we've never discussed or tried to not WIN. (I have plenty of losing tickets to prove it:bang: ).
I was implying that it does happen. I wasn't trying to be specific and point the finger at myself. I used my horses as an example to get the point across that horses are sometimes entered in the wrong spots, not by choice, but by circumstances.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Ok I understand the reasons why horses are overmatched and have no chance to win. Or even pick up a check.
Now oin to your problem at HOU..It seems there are factors that are preventing you from recouping your investment. It looks like the situation at HOU is a screwey one. So why are you not trying another racing jusridiction? Is Louisianna not appropriate for you?
Now one of things I have noticed is there are instances where conditions of races are not conducive to those races being filled. And there are times when a nmber of horses on the grounds have "raced out of conditions". Based on that I have a question. Is it not incumbent upon the racing secretary to look over records, earnings, etc of the horses on the grounds and write races that are most likely to A) be filled and B) give the owners/trainers on the grounds, presumably these are the people supporting the track, opportunities to run their horses?

Actually the racing secretary has been supportive and has written extras to accomodate us (unfortunately, they're not filling either). However, there just doesnt seem to be the amount of OPEN claimers stabled here. It seems that 90% of the horses are either maidens or conditioned claimers. As far as going to other jurisdictions, We've tried that, we went to Oaklawn last year and it was disasterous (terrible weather and also NO GRASS). Delta doesnt have grass either. Fairgrounds competition to tough. New Mexico is too far and we'd probably would have the same problems. There's really no option right now without having to spend a lot of money to ship.
I imagine it will get easier in late Feb and March when other horses ship to WRD and/or gear up for LS. Entries were really light last year and they had to use a lot of 6 horse fields.

[Equipik]

When I first started going to the races in the 60's claiming horses ran back every week to 10 days. If a horse was off 3 weeks or so after a good race some thing was wrong with the horse. If you read some of the handicapping books from that era you find the authors thought horses running back in week was a good thing. They thought that a month off was very bad in anything other than stakes horses.


The uneducated betting public has no idea that there is virtually NO possibility of entering a "hurt" horse in a race because of state laws, stewards, trainers, jockeys, and track veteranarians.

However, I hear every time I go racing about "that horse is hurt" because of a few races he didn't win in a row. Have you considered that every time a horse is brought to a race it might not be to win? That "conditioning" is also a vital part of horse racing?

Those hurt horses people point out make me a ton of money all year long. It is a theory I hope everyone retains as it is so absolutely profitable to see conditioning in The Form and realize when they are going to run for the money.

Although in reality... they don't enter or run "hurt horses" anywhere at a class track, and most likely not at a bullring track either because of laws governing it.

[bobphilo]

A horse in New Zealand just won four races in ten days. Another dead Equidaily link. Trainer said, "Not a problem, if you know what you are doing.".

In Australia and Hong Kong, any change in racing tactics must be reported to the stewards in advance. If you plan on taking back your front runner today, or sending your closer, you better tell them first.

Speaking of Hong Kong. The stewards there recently handed down a 2-month suspension to a jockey for a ride they though cost his mount a 2nd place finish by a nose. Though I don't see how the ride was so bad myself and the sentence harsh, I strongly agree with the attitude of the Hong Kong officials in protecting the interests of the bettors in principle. Here's the replay
The horse was the #11 Sohna.

http://tinyurl.com/2d3674

Bob

[russowen77]

That is really strange. At the call the man gave the horse credit for a nice finish. I love Hong Kong but I haven't been back since the conversion. I wonder what that was all about.

[retcu29]

Tejas Kidd,
No reference to your explanation of the conditions, etc..., but to those that set the process into motion. Great subject...thanks, again.

[bobphilo]

That is really strange. At the call the man gave the horse credit for a nice finish. I love Hong Kong but I haven't been back since the conversion. I wonder what that was all about.

I agree. he was clearly riding him hard through the finish. The incident report said that he hesitated at the 200 M mark but it looked to me like that Dye made his move as soon as the hole opened. Maybe the stewards had a view from a different angle that showed different.
Though I think they got it wrong this time, it does show that the Hong Kong stewards are really watching.

Bob

[russowen77]

I hope they are ex jocks then because at real time speed some of those holes they think they see are not really there. Horses aren't cars. If they think a jock is in total control they need to go for a few test drives under similar conditions.

[ranchwest]

I am getting a little lost here. It almost seems like some people who think anything good for the horsemen is bad for bettors. I would like to point out that we need horses to bet on. It is getting tougher out there for the horseman. I bet gas prices affect you for example just driving one car.

Tracks are even paying starter money now in some locals. Short field races are a problem in areas where the purses have not been able to grow as large as in others. It is part of the game.

Do many of you think we should close tracks and which ones?

I don't think anyone begrudges the horsemen anything. It just gets frustrating when the tracks accomodate the horsemen a lot and patrons so little. That isn't a knock on the horsemen's situation. It is a knock on the tracks.

[riskman]

I don't recall reading of "public annoucements".

So the track officials have an edge--and make a wager( and of course their buddies) if the race sets up to their advantage?

[russowen77]

So the track officials have an edge--and make a wager( and of course their buddies) if the race sets up to their advantage?

I wonder about that. The dudes around here are some the biggest losers around. If they have any inside data worth a poop I have never seen signs of it.

[Imriledup]

Great thread. My 2 Cents.

I think that part of this thread is discussing the actual reversal of the form of the horse as he looks on paper....and the other part is jockey manipulation of the running style of the horse.

I believe that horse's can have any number of things to help them run faster, like vet work, injections, a tooth ache that went away, dewormed, foot blocks and the list goes on to infinity.

I feel as a handicapper i can sniff out the horses who are good who show nothing on paper by watching the replays and really knowing the level of competition that each horse races against. My problem is when riders determine to alter the running style of the animal on their own. Riders are paid to ride, not to train. By a jock taking a speed horse and grabbing a huge hold and staying far off the pace he's 'training' that horse to run a certain way. As a bettor, i don't want jockeys to have the power to 'train' horses to run to a certain style. If that horse is a one dimensional speed horse i want him to be ridden in that fashion. If a horse shows big speed on paper and there are more than one horse who's shown they can only run one way, i want those two speed horses to be sent and conform to their running styles.

If a rider takes back a speed horse in a sprint race, to me, that's equivalent to lack of effort. A jockey's job is to ride the hair off every horse in every race and to ride that horse consistent to the horse's style. When a jock alters that running form, i believe that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

If a trainer or jockey has decided that they don't want to get in a 'speed duel' and they are going to 'experiment' and take said runner back in the pack and make one run, this needs to be listed in the program as an equipment change. Just like blinkers on or off, or first time lasix, first time new tactics needs to be listed. And, if its a last second change (like a late announcement of first time gelding) it needs to be announced with 11 minutes to post and run across the scroll under the tv's that says "#3 will NOT be going to the lead today, so wager accordingly"

[jotb]

Nice call.

The condition book certainly was not written for you. I think right now the way Wild Screen is running, I would not worry about finding a state bred race. The last 2 races you ran her in there were quite a few texas breds in the races. I think they ran a 10k state bred race and it only had 6 or 7 horses but that might have been too tough for her. That DNF last time is not a good sign.

I would think you will enter Amen Sistah for the Jan 19th race 5F on turf for 10k.

I like that Ligitmateprincess and I hope that race goes for you Friday. That should be a good spot. She ran well on the turf for 10k and that certainly was over her head. A 3l is the way to go. I can see you claiming that mare for the turf. The dam has dropped 2 other foals. One is Temperence Storm and she never ran on the turf and the other is Mahaley Mae who was 5 for 5 on the turf.

It looks like you are stuck with Jet G's Courage for now. Maybe the next book.

Screen Writer ran well in the 2x and finished behind Aggie's rule who was also in that SA last time. I guess Screen Writer just didn't fire or maybe was not happy being down on the inside according to the race chart. All of his wins are usually coming from behind outside of horses. I don't think Screen Writer was in over his head last out.

Good luck in finding the right spots for your stock.

Joe

[TEJAS KIDD]

The condition book certainly was not written for you. I think right now the way Wild Screen is running, I would not worry about finding a state bred race. The last 2 races you ran her in there were quite a few texas breds in the races. I think they ran a 10k state bred race and it only had 6 or 7 horses but that might have been too tough for her. That DNF last time is not a good sign.

I would think you will enter Amen Sistah for the Jan 19th race 5F on turf for 10k.

I like that Ligitmateprincess and I hope that race goes for you Friday. That should be a good spot. She ran well on the turf for 10k and that certainly was over her head. A 3l is the way to go. I can see you claiming that mare for the turf. The dam has dropped 2 other foals. One is Temperence Storm and she never ran on the turf and the other is Mahaley Mae who was 5 for 5 on the turf.

It looks like you are stuck with Jet G's Courage for now. Maybe the next book.

Screen Writer ran well in the 2x and finished behind Aggie's rule who was also in that SA last time. I guess Screen Writer just didn't fire or maybe was not happy being down on the inside according to the race chart. All of his wins are usually coming from behind outside of horses. I don't think Screen Writer was in over his head last out.

Good luck in finding the right spots for your stock.

Joe

Joe,
You're not telling me anything I don't already know. Thanks for trying. It's nice to know someone would be looking out for me. I claimed LiGITIMATEPRINCESS because I wanted to claim MAHALEY MAE a couple of years ago. I was out of the country and my former partner said he had the money to cover it ,but the money never made it into the account and we never made the claim. She would have made me some money. She was a terrible dirt horse and moved up a ton when going on the grass. I hoped that LIGITIMATE would move up equally as well. She at least has the dirt value that we claimed her for, so all will not be lost if she doesnt perform well on the grass. As far as WILD SCREEN is concerned, I was ready to get rid of her a few months ago, but she was unbeaten at HOU ,so I waited. She remained unbeaten after her 1st start this meet but has since tailed off severely.
TK

[TEJAS KIDD]

Great thread. My 2 Cents.

I think that part of this thread is discussing the actual reversal of the form of the horse as he looks on paper....and the other part is jockey manipulation of the running style of the horse.

I believe that horse's can have any number of things to help them run faster, like vet work, injections, a tooth ache that went away, dewormed, foot blocks and the list goes on to infinity.

I feel as a handicapper i can sniff out the horses who are good who show nothing on paper by watching the replays and really knowing the level of competition that each horse races against. My problem is when riders determine to alter the running style of the animal on their own. Riders are paid to ride, not to train. By a jock taking a speed horse and grabbing a huge hold and staying far off the pace he's 'training' that horse to run a certain way. As a bettor, i don't want jockeys to have the power to 'train' horses to run to a certain style. If that horse is a one dimensional speed horse i want him to be ridden in that fashion. If a horse shows big speed on paper and there are more than one horse who's shown they can only run one way, i want those two speed horses to be sent and conform to their running styles.

If a rider takes back a speed horse in a sprint race, to me, that's equivalent to lack of effort. A jockey's job is to ride the hair off every horse in every race and to ride that horse consistent to the horse's style. When a jock alters that running form, i believe that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

If a trainer or jockey has decided that they don't want to get in a 'speed duel' and they are going to 'experiment' and take said runner back in the pack and make one run, this needs to be listed in the program as an equipment change. Just like blinkers on or off, or first time lasix, first time new tactics needs to be listed. And, if its a last second change (like a late announcement of first time gelding) it needs to be announced with 11 minutes to post and run across the scroll under the tv's that says "#3 will NOT be going to the lead today, so wager accordingly"


You're joking, right?
As soon as the gate opens, most jockey instructions are tossed out the window, anyway (1. they probably don't remember. 2. they have to improvise based on the way they broke, or the way the rest of the field broke)
Jockeys, in races, are forever improvising. Very seldom does anything go as planned. I've probably given 20 or more instructions over the passed couple of years, and I've only had 2 of them followed to a "T", the other 18 or so were out as soon as the gate opened, or heading into the 1st turn.
What's that saying? A good jockey doesnt need instructions and a bad jockey will forget them.

[njcurveball]

I loved the jockey instructions by the trainer in the movie "Let It Ride"


GO FAST AND WIN!


Nothing more needs to be said. :ThmbUp:

[Pell Mell]

Or, as Father Daly said, "Go to the front and gradually improve your position".:lol:

[Imriledup]

You're joking, right?
As soon as the gate opens, most jockey instructions are tossed out the window, anyway (1. they probably don't remember. 2. they have to improvise based on the way they broke, or the way the rest of the field broke)
Jockeys, in races, are forever improvising. Very seldom does anything go as planned. I've probably given 20 or more instructions over the passed couple of years, and I've only had 2 of them followed to a "T", the other 18 or so were out as soon as the gate opened, or heading into the 1st turn.
What's that saying? A good jockey doesnt need instructions and a bad jockey will forget them.

My point is don't improvise. If a horse shows one way to run, i expect that's the way the horse is to be ridden. If its a one dimensional speedball, i expect that horse to be on the lead at any cost or else i have to believe the rider isn't making a 100 percent effort to win.

[whiteathame]

Tejas that is interesting. I had no idea the placing of horses was such a pain. That helps explain why so many times I see horses in places where they can't win (and don't).


Amen; I've walked the same road. Some years ago, we couldn't find a race in the condition book for either of my the Laurel-based horses and my trainer's requests kept being ignored. Three days after we turn them out she gets a phone call asking her to use one to help fill a race. Normally a lady, she explained her point of view in language a sailor woul appreciate and "my babies" discovered Tampa....

[jotb]

Hello:

I think if you are going to claim horses at the end of a meet and then run at another location but the condition book is not out yet, I would have my trainer ask the racing secretary to look at the proof to see if the races that you want are there in the book. The only other thing you can do which helps is look to see if these races have been filling in the past. If you have past result charts it helps to see how many times they ran the condition and how many horses were in each condition. If you ask the racing secretary to put up an extra for a specific day just make sure the races in the book for that day are races that will not fill. I know at CT where I am if the races fill in the book those are the races they will use and throw out the extra's or bring them back the next day. Lastly, if you are heading to a racetrack where they take alot of entries each day, make sure you establish a date immediately. If they run a specific condition at a certain distance maybe once or twice for the month and you don't get in because of date preference you will be stuck running your horse at another level that you may not want to be in or have to wait until the next book comes out. It's like handicapping you have to do your homework ahead of time. I hope this helps for the owners that are just coming into the sport.

Joe