Jockeyless Horses

[john messina]

Hi All,

Ever notice how a horse which unseats his rider runs particularly well. Many times beating the field without urging, no jockey whip, no inside or outside moves, essentially running at "his own pace". Is soley due to the weight differential (not carrying a load)? Just something nagging at me today, besides my wife. Any opinions?

[magwell]

Hi All,

Ever notice how a horse which unseats his rider runs particularly well. Many times beating the field without urging, no jockey whip, no inside or outside moves, essentially running at "his own pace". Is soley due to the weight differential (not carrying a load)? Just something nagging at me today, besides my wife. Any opinions? Hi, you better go back to bed........ like 115 pounds off wont let a horse run better:eek:

[Overlay]

I always attributed it to the weight difference. Maybe there's something about the herd behavior of horses that would apply, too (such as the riderless horse's faster running speed, or running without a visible rider, being a dominant behavior signal that causes other horses to yield to it), but I'm not sure about that.

[boomman]

I always attributed it to the weight difference. Maybe there's something about the herd behavior of horses that would apply, too (such as the riderless horse's faster running speed, or running without a visible rider, being a dominant behavior signal that causes other horses to yield to it), but I'm not sure about that.

Overlay: Having called somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 races, I have certainly seen my share of riderless horses. And I think your herd behavior assessment is probably true. But as for these horses often running in front of the others (especially horses that come into the race in questionable form) all the way around the racetrack I would certainly attribute that to running much faster and further when not carrying weight. I don't think there's really much doubt about that (as Magwell said)............

Boomer

[cj's dad]

Less weight = more speed, no doubt. But, isn't there a possibility that the jocks in the race are somewhat reluctant to pass a riderless horse that could veer in/out, etc.... until such horse has cleared away from the main part of the track as they so often do?

[cj]

Many times, a riderless horse has the smartest jockey in the field.

[cj's dad]

Many times, a riderless horse has the smartest jockey in the field.

Check your e-mail/pvt.message

[MONEY]

Hi All,

Ever notice how a horse which unseats his rider runs particularly well. Many times beating the field without urging

On the other side of the coin, a horseless jockey is rarely competitive.

Money

[Robert Goren]

The horse that loses its jockey is the one I bet or so it seems.

[Pace Cap'n]

Watched one a week ago, forget which track. Saved ground all the way running mid-pack, squeezed his way up the rail at the 1/16 pole and gained the lead with about 50 feet to go. Some guy in the back says "SOB sure ran a smart race.".

[xtb]

After the first time I saw it, Suffolk I think, I stopped looking at jockeys' records and my results have improved. It was the coolest trip I've ever seen as the riderless horse weaved his way through traffic to get the lead. He looked like he knew exactly what he was doing and was having a blast.

[Greyfox]

So just load them up in the gate without jockeys.
Spook them to start or chase them.
First one across the wire wins.
Might be kind of fun to watch them try and round them up after each race though. :lol:

[classhandicapper]

Many times, a riderless horse has the smartest jockey in the field.

:lol:

[DJofSD]

There's more to it than just how much a jockey weighs. If a jock can't ride then it doesn't make any difference how much weight the horse carries. Can he break with the horse or does he just fall back into the saddle? Does he know how to go with the motion of the horse or is he always just a tad ahead or behind the motion? Does he have leg muscles made out of iron or does he get tired when they're in the stretch, eventually bumping the saddle and the horses back?

I'm not saying it is easy, nor am I saying I can do what they do. But what I am saying is a jock can do more to detract from the horse's ability to run than he can give. Don't believe me, ask Chris McCarron what is his opinion.

[Norm]

So just load them up in the gate without jockeys.
Spook them to start or chase them.
First one across the wire wins.
Might be kind of fun to watch them try and round them up after each race though. :lol:

Reminds me of the story of the fella who trained his horses by chasing them across a field in a pick-up truck. Used to time them with his speedometer instead of a stop-watch. When they could out-run him at 40 mph, they were ready to race ! :)

[john messina]

Overlay: Having called somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 races, I have certainly seen my share of riderless horses. And I think your herd behavior assessment is probably true. But as for these horses often running in front of the others (especially horses that come into the race in questionable form) all the way around the racetrack I would certainly attribute that to running much faster and further when not carrying weight. I don't think there's really much doubt about that (as Magwell said)............

Boomer

Boomer, thank you for response. 50,000 races that quite a lot. I'm sure you enjoyed it. You probably have developed a keen eye for what is transpiring during the running of the race. Your experience is invaluable.

If I may, I have another "nagging" question.

So often a horse sitting several lengths off the pace makes a run at the leader...it appears that this horse is accelerating. However, when he reaches the leading horse, he doesn't pass him. Instead they lockup. Here's where I get puzzled. If the horse chasing is accelerating, and reaches the lead horse, shouldn't his momentum carry him pass the lead horse? If not, then doesn't the lead horse have to "instantaneously" accelerate to keep the accelerating horse from passing him.

From a physics stand point what I observe under the above conditions has never made sense to me, unless the rider of the horse that has momentum purposely starts to deaccelerate before actually reaching the leading horse.

Why would he? I guess that is another question.

I'd appreciate your insight, if you care share any.

Thank you

[Pell Mell]

Boomer, thank you for response. 50,000 races that quite a lot. I'm sure you enjoyed it. You probably have developed a keen eye for what is transpiring during the running of the race. Your experience is invaluable.

If I may, I have another "nagging" question.

So often a horse sitting several lengths off the pace makes a run at the leader...it appears that this horse is accelerating. However, when he reaches the leading horse, he doesn't pass him. Instead they lockup. Here's where I get puzzled. If the horse chasing is accelerating, and reaches the lead horse, shouldn't his momentum carry him pass the lead horse? If not, then doesn't the lead horse have to "instantaneously" accelerate to keep the accelerating horse from passing him.

From a physics stand point what I observe under the above conditions has never made sense to me, unless the rider of the horse that has momentum purposely starts to deaccelerate before actually reaching the leading horse.

Why would he? I guess that is another question.

I'd appreciate your insight, if you care share any.

Thank you

I would guess that this happens most often where the horse on the lead is involved, not saying it can't happen farther back. I would think the answer is that the jock and/or the horse in front hear the other horse coming and have already let out a notch or two in order to stave off the bid being launched. From a distance it may look like the bidding horse slows down but in reality the horse in front had already began to pick up the pace. Also, many times a horse coming from the rear uses all its energy to get to a contending position while the horse in front may have been coasting along.

[Cangamble]

Many times, a riderless horse has the smartest jockey in the field.
:D But kidding aside, I've always contended that the best jockeys are the ones who make the least mistakes. A horse without a jockey doesn't have to worry about rider mistakes.

[DanG]

The average thoroughbred weight is estimated at 1,000lbs.
Let’s say the average rider weighs 115lbs.
The rider represents 12% of the horse’s body weight.
Hypothetical 200lbs Olympic sprinter.


Runner A is in lane one.
Runner B in lane two has a 24lbs “dumbbell” ;) (12% of his body weight) strapped to his neck.
Which one are you betting on…?

Weight is not hypothetical in its impact on a creature attempting to carry it. We all know if Curlin had a 600lbs safe on his back we wouldn’t bet him. It’s just a matter of to what degree small shifts impact performance and are they measurable.

[boomman]

I would guess that this happens most often where the horse on the lead is involved, not saying it can't happen farther back. I would think the answer is that the jock and/or the horse in front hear the other horse coming and have already let out a notch or two in order to stave off the bid being launched. From a distance it may look like the bidding horse slows down but in reality the horse in front had already began to pick up the pace. Also, many times a horse coming from the rear uses all its energy to get to a contending position while the horse in front may have been coasting along.

John/PellMell: I just saw your question this morning, and I agree 100% with Pell Mell...The horse on the lead (where you notice this happening the most) is getting a breather while the horse trying to pass him is using a lot of energy to "catch up". I was told early in my career by a Hall of Fame trainer that 90% of all race horses can only sustain an all-out drive for 3/8 of a mile, so that would also explain (somewhat) the "Huge move, run along side the other horse Phenomenon";)

Boomer

[bellsbendboy]

While weight, or lack thereof, and to a lesser extent the herd instinct can certainly cause a riderless horse to "race", the main reason is that the horse realizes it is loose. When a thoroughbred gets loose they produce a surge of adrenalin and are be a handful to catch.

A mild analogy; At seven am, the day after weaning at Claiborne farm the new weanlings are turned out in the fields. At 8am the farmhands go to lunch. At nine am the process of putting them back in their stalls commences!

[kenwoodallpromos]

The average thoroughbred weight is estimated at 1,000lbs.
Let’s say the average rider weighs 115lbs.
The rider represents 12% of the horse’s body weight.
Hypothetical 200lbs Olympic sprinter.


Runner A is in lane one.
Runner B in lane two has a 24lbs “dumbbell” ;) (12% of his body weight) strapped to his neck.
Which one are you betting on…?

Weight is not hypothetical in its impact on a creature attempting to carry it. We all know if Curlin had a 600lbs safe on his back we wouldn’t bet him. It’s just a matter of to what degree small shifts impact performance and are they measurable.
I want to see the whip you invented for the riderless horse! LOL!!
Almost asll horses I see at the cheap NorCal tracks lead to the 1/2, their natural limit, when they get passed, usually far wide. Then they just follow the herd. They riderless ones that "win" go on my watch list!!