The Cost Of Owning A Horse In Ontario

[Cangamble]

I just posted the cost of owning a horse in Ontario, Fort Erie vs. Woodbine, for the same type of horse:

http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2008/01/time-for-owners-of-thoroughbreds-in.html

Maybe a few members here can post what it costs to own a horse at other tracks/states for a year.

[onefast99]

$75 per day for a good solid trainer, approx $400 per month for vet fees including lasix shots and misc like vitamins or gastroguard or worming, sometimes vet bills may be higher for horses that need more work. Total for the month is about $3000. The funny part is its the same cost whether you have a stakes horse or 5k claimer!

[ryesteve]

The funny part is its the same cost whether you have a stakes horse or 5k claimer!
I was thinking the same thing when I read some of the "partnership" threads here, and some people recommend claiming a cheap horse and going it alone, rather than joining a partnership. Assuming you're able to find a partnership that isn't ripping off its investors, it seems like it makes more sense to own 10% of a $100k horse than to own 100% of a $10k horse.

[hibiscus]

I was thinking the same thing when I read some of the "partnership" threads here, and some people recommend claiming a cheap horse and going it alone, rather than joining a partnership. Assuming you're able to find a partnership that isn't ripping off its investors, it seems like it makes more sense to own 10% of a $100k horse than to own 100% of a $10k horse.

You are 100% correct. Hibiscus Stables is a "partnership stable". I'm not permitted to talk about that too much here but I can tell you that boarding and training a horse in NY costs $85 per day with a good trainer and even more for a high-profile trainer like Pletcher or Mott or Zito, etc. The vet bills are more like $600 per month and the farrier is $150 per month. You will also need to van the horse around from time-to-time so include something for that. Then factor in something for the unexpected knee surgery or x-ray here and there. That's all constant whether it's a nickel-claimer or Invasor.



That's why people who bash partnership groups as rip-offs that double the price of the horse, etc need to do the math. Many partnership groups include many months of training in the initial price of the horse. That training isn't free. Any additional markup goes to keeping the company operating. Advertising, phones, rent, salaries, trips to auctions, legal fees, etc aren't free either.



But back to the original question, I would expect $3000 to $3500 per month in NY.

[lamboguy]

i pay $85 a day to a top trainer in New York. my vet bills are about $900 per month, and i run about once every 6 weeks on average wehn horses are in training. but this guy gets results and doesn't have time or patience for sub-par performance.

bottom line, it is a better deal to just be his horses, than have them in training with him. you could never get even unless you have a stake horse with this guy!

[Cangamble]

I was thinking the same thing when I read some of the "partnership" threads here, and some people recommend claiming a cheap horse and going it alone, rather than joining a partnership. Assuming you're able to find a partnership that isn't ripping off its investors, it seems like it makes more sense to own 10% of a $100k horse than to own 100% of a $10k horse.
I've noticed advertised partnerships who overvalue the horse or horses in question. It is best to start without a horse and buy them at sales or through claiming. I do think that you could get a profitable horse for 12k plus as long as the purses are generous enough.

[onefast99]

i pay $85 a day to a top trainer in New York. my vet bills are about $900 per month, and i run about once every 6 weeks on average wehn horses are in training. but this guy gets results and doesn't have time or patience for sub-par performance.

bottom line, it is a better deal to just be his horses, than have them in training with him. you could never get even unless you have a stake horse with this guy!
I pay the samething. The good part about NY racing is the shuttle service between Aqu-Bel and saratoga are free. So unless you race at Philly, Mth or the Meadowlands your transportation costs are zero. Farriers get $150, $900 for a vet is a bit high, unless the horse is in need of gastoguard and numerous $25 shots. I have been able to keep my vet bills to an average of $400 per month in NY.

[ryesteve]

I've noticed advertised partnerships who overvalue the horse or horses in question.
No doubt... when you see a group that sells 1% for $1,000, and then you see their horses running in $15k-$25k statebred maiden claimers, you can certainly draw the appropriate conclusion. That's the sort of thing I had in mind when I said, "assuming you can find one that doesn't rip off its investors"

[lamboguy]

i remember when centenial farms won the belmont with colonial affair. it was a great day for that group. but look at the other horses in that partnership, some were OK, most were sub-par. even with the belmont winner most of those partners were in a losing position.

there are to many things that are behind the scenes in limited partnerships other than the fees and expenses. remember even if you get into a young horse, that horse was studied before it goes into the partnership. the guys running the show know when a horse has a big shot or not, do you think they are going to give that horse away in a partnership for short money.

my advice is if you can't afoord to own a horse by yourself or with a few of your friends, stay away from the game and just bet the horses. its tough enough to win when you battle all the rich owners out there that don't care about money.

i lose at the game, i try to make it up at the windows, betting when my horse is at peak condition, tryign to spot the horses in the right spots.

[Grits]

i pay $85 a day to a top trainer in New York. my vet bills are about $900 per month, and i run about once every 6 weeks on average wehn horses are in training. but this guy gets results and doesn't have time or patience for sub-par performance.

bottom line, it is a better deal to just be his horses, than have them in training with him. you could never get even unless you have a stake horse with this guy!

If that top NY trainer was billing me at $85. X 30 = $2550 and tacking on aboout another $1K per month in vet bills, I'd be betting as well.

[onefast99]

If that top NY trainer was billing me at $85. X 30 = $2550 and tacking on aboout another $1K per month in vet bills, I'd be betting as well.
Gastroguard is expensive and maybe the horse needed a few extra needles, if you scope him after each race thats another $50 I dont see this adding up to 1k unless the vet is throwing his car payment in the mix.:lol:

[ralph_the_cat]

AT MNR its usually around $30-$50 a day... some poor souls will charge as low as $20-25...

Vet bills are from $100-$200 per start... run twice in one month a vet bill could hit $400 or more depending on work... Vet bills are so hard to tell an owner what they may expect... I have ponies that run that cost only about $50-100 a start... and I've had others that run $200-$300 a start... maybe more... typically if your putting more out in money per start... the horse is earning it... no owners going to want to put out $300 a start if it aint producing... but if it is... then charge away...

shoes are $90 at MNR...

I recommend going with small stables... they have less help to pay which means a lower day rate...

[northerndancer]

My current rates for the following jurisdictions (trainer, vet, meds, blacksmith, other, total per month):

Woodbine: $85, $1,200, $100, $125, $25, $4,000

Delaware: $60, $400, $300, $90, $0, $2,500

Charles Town: $50, $500, $200, $90, $0, $2,300

Kentucky: $65, $200, $100, $90, $0, $2,000

California (Southern): $80, $400, $400, $110, $0, $3,300

Laurel: $55, $400, $300, $90, $0, $2,300

I have to pay for stall rent and both Woodbine and Fort Erie for shavings removal. Also at Woodbine my trainer charges for hydroponic grass.

I believe that it actually costs more to train a cheap horse than it does a good horse. The cheap horse vet and medication bills are way out of proportion in comparison to the good horse.

[Zaf]

CG,

Your blog is excellent !

Z

[Pace Cap'n]

And that hydroponic grass ain't cheap!:cool:

[eastie]

yeah but it keeps you high all day and smells nice and skunky

[facorsig]

My partnership bills for 10% share racing on NY / FL circuit (Aqu/Bel/Sar/GP) were always more than $1500/quarter. A small piece of this was an administration fee from the partnership. This translates to roughly $5000/month for 100% share. I owned four horses through partnerships and am now looking at the breeding end of the business.

I agree with Ryesteve that you are far better off to own 10% of a horse at the middle or top of the game than to own a oats eating monster who scrapes by in statebred claiming races. There are several good books on cost of ownership which make the same conclusion.

Fred

[Cangamble]

Northern Dancer, $1200 a month for vet? Is that just one horse who has problems or do you have a couple or a few there? And the $85 a day is on the high side too. I know you could get a very capable trainer for much lower costs.

Zaf, thanks, I like to take a cynical/realistic approach to the blog and what I use for content.

[ryesteve]

That's why people who bash partnership groups as rip-offs that double the price of the horse, etc need to do the math. Many partnership groups include many months of training in the initial price of the horse
Even so, a year and a half down on a farm shouldn't be so expensive that it turns a $15k horse into a $100k horse.

As for the other admin costs, if they're legitimate expenses, then they should be itemized and accounted for in the partners' billing statements, not hidden within the markups.

I'm also not sure why partners should be paying for things like "advertising". That strictly benefits the managers of the partnership, and is not a necessary cost component of owning and operating a stable. In fact, as more partners join a group, it could either drive up share prices, or make the more desirable ones more difficult to get. As an existing partner, why would I want to be paying advertising fees to attract other investors who could end up competing against me?

[onefast99]

Here is the cost breakdown for a race in the NY circuit,

Trainer $85/day
vet $400/month(does not include a fee for a horse who needs to be injected)
Farrier $150/month
Pony $25 per race
Misc $100/month this includes any unforseen costs
Purchase price of this horse was 50k, the purse money he runs for is 52k.
Add all of this up and you get your "monthly" costs for NY.
Additional costs may be scoping after a race, gastroguard or de-worming as well as a haircut. Vet bills of 1k a month means you have a horse that is in need of a lot of medical attention and may be better off racing at a less competitive level or giving the horse time off at a farm which would run $16-$30 per day as well as the cost to van the horse to the farm. If you have a mare you may want to look at putting her in the breeding shed as that end of the business is lucrative if you have the right connections.

[Teach]

There's another side to this excellent thread. It's the sordid side. It's the tempation to fix a race, especially at low-tier tracks with cheap claimers. Come on. From the figures and expenses I'm looking at, how can people who own "cheap" horses pay all those expenses. Wouldn't it be naive not think that the temptation must great to try to orchestrate outcomes.

[lamboguy]

most horses are treated every day with either the bute or banomine, that cost about $15. most guys use clem-buterol----------roughly $275 per month, throw in some winstrol, which will be banned, but try winning without it, is $50 twice a month, do a normal race prep with lasix add a scope in and you can see how vet bills are $900 a month

try using a food like succeed, handwalk the horse instead of putting him on the walker, brush the horse with his own brush everyday and groom him, now you can see how trainer can charge $85 a day and not make any money with the rate.

try running your horse in the wrong spot, and you have now wasted all the moeny you have spent to keep him in training.

racefixing does not exist today, not like the old days of sulfok downs when you had the ciulo's and sublemates, and the howie winters of the world. the mobsters are all dead and in jail now. you can blame horseracing for pools that stay open late, kickbacks adn other inside moves, but not race-fixing, even in the smaller tracks today

[Grits]

Teach, my thought has nothing to do with race fixing--and that one may come back to bite 'cha. LOL That, not being an easy task today.

My thought is more of WHY would you WANT to own such horses? WHY would I want that kind of expense every month?

Sure, its a given, few horses are stakes quality, and few owners make money racing their horses, but why would I want the expense of lower level claiming horses?

One's trainer better be more magician than trainer, if he plans on good results and excellent performance each time one of these steps onto the track.

[onefast99]

The last time I looked one of our stakes horses got a charge of $90 for one clembuterol application. I would check around on the $275 price unless you are racing 3x per month and if you are your vet bills will be that high.

[lamboguy]

certain trainers administer the stuff more than others. in philadelphia park you can administer the clem 24 before a race. in new york you can only use it up to 5 days before. i remember the days when you couldn't use it at all. and they didn't allow lasix. another point i never brought up is the oxygen chambers and shockwave treatment. that stuff ain't so cheap!

[Cangamble]

There's another side to this excellent thread. It's the sordid side. It's the tempation to fix a race, especially at low-tier tracks with cheap claimers. Come on. From the figures and expenses I'm looking at, how can people who own "cheap" horses pay all those expenses. Wouldn't it be naive not think that the temptation must great to try to orchestrate outcomes.
A cheap horse at a B track needs about 2200 a month in purses (including Jock, Lasix, Pony, trainers 10%, etc. to break even.
Since the pools are usually smaller, and technology is more able to find cheats than in the 60's for example, and horses only average racing 10 times a year give or take, not like the 60's when they raced at least 50% more often, I think the likelihood of a "fixed" race is small. But I'm not saying that trainers don't purposely darken a form once in a while on an individual horse.

[JWBurnie]

I started in a partnership. First horse we claimed for 4k and was retired after his 2nd start for us. Complete waste of time and money. Second horse we claimed for 15K, router w/ great back class (seemed like a good claim). He won his 3rd start for us at the same level. Four starts later he was running for 4K, he won a year later. Made two more starts and then we got a run around from our trainer (a complete thief) saying the horse was good but need a month or two off. Still paying a day rate, avg. monthly bill $2,100 to 2,400. Come to find out he had shipped the horse to another state and had no intentions of training the horse ever again. This went on for a lot longer than I'd like to admit. In partnerships I've found you have next to no say in what happens with the horse and very little involvement with it's training (you really have to go out of your way to find out what's going on). If you're not looking for a return on your investment and just want to dabble in the game of ownership, have at it. Good luck to you.



I say partner with a couple friends, find a good trainer (not one that trains by the needle) and get involved. You'll enjoy it a lot more.

[onefast99]

I started in a partnership. First horse we claimed for 4k and was retired after his 2nd start for us. Complete waste of time and money. Second horse we claimed for 15K, router w/ great back class (seemed like a good claim). He won his 3rd start for us at the same level. Four starts later he was running for 4K, he won a year later. Made two more starts and then we got a run around from our trainer (a complete thief) saying the horse was good but need a month or two off. Still paying a day rate, avg. monthly bill $2,100 to 2,400. Come to find out he had shipped the horse to another state and had no intentions of training the horse ever again. This went on for a lot longer than I'd like to admit. In partnerships I've found you have next to no say in what happens with the horse and very little involvement with it's training (you really have to go out of your way to find out what's going on). If you're not looking for a return on your investment and just want to dabble in the game of ownership, have at it. Good luck to you.



I say partner with a couple friends, find a good trainer (not one that trains by the needle) and get involved. You'll enjoy it a lot more.
Since we switched trainers last summer we put in a video camera that I am able to watch the horses in their stalls 24/7. This was a worthwhile investment. You may also keep tabs on your horse by calling the trainer each and every day. The trainers job is to keep you the owner updated on the horse. If you cannot get an open line of communication with your trainer its time to get a new one. After 5 years we switched and I am a lot less stressed from the new one!!!

[JWBurnie]

Since we switched trainers last summer we put in a video camera that I am able to watch the horses in their stalls 24/7. This was a worthwhile investment. You may also keep tabs on your horse by calling the trainer each and every day. The trainers job is to keep you the owner updated on the horse. If you cannot get an open line of communication with your trainer its time to get a new one. After 5 years we switched and I am a lot less stressed from the new one!!!

I've heard of people installing video cameras at the stables. If you don't mind me asking, how expensive was it? I actually try and make it out for training 4-5 times a week. No better way to start a day IMO.

I had always wonder if a service was provided to owners that would allow them to view live stream of their horses activity every morning, if owners would purchase the service. I know I would on mornings I couldn't make it out.

[ryesteve]

we got a run around from our trainer (a complete thief) saying the horse was good but need a month or two off. Still paying a day rate, avg. monthly bill $2,100 to 2,400. Come to find out he had shipped the horse to another state and had no intentions of training the horse ever again.
How exactly does a trainer benefit by not running a horse that is capable of running? Wouldn't he prefer to be collecting purse money, rather than just leaving the horse in a barn? If he said the horse needed a break, I'm not sure why you'd be skeptical.

[lamboguy]

very important to speak with trainer. remember you are the one that pays the bills.

if you are trying to win money from purses i sugest you find a different game, because as big as the purses are these days its still tuff to win.

if you are not a good jammer you will always lose your horse for less than the true value of the horse to a trainer that has an owner that doesn't care about money.

take a look at BRUCE LEVINE for example, his owners consist of a guy by the name of REPOLE, he sold vidamint to coca cola for $5 billion. do you think he cares if he loses money on horses? another owner i see he has is MAGGI MOSS, a big time personal injury attourney with horses all over the place. he has RODY VALENTE, anothe guy with plenty of money. levine gets to run his horses in the right spots and has pelnty of horses in his barn so he can wait for things to happen. along with being a great trainer, he has these other advantages that blue collar trainers don't have. his owners don't need the purses to pay the bills, unlike most of us here.

after watching the republican debate last night, and the lack of a quality candidate on the red side of the isle, i sugest that instead of investing your money in race horses, go and buy some gold and silver, it is as close a cinch to be worth more going forward than i have ever seen in my entire life!

[JWBurnie]

How exactly does a trainer benefit by not running a horse that is capable of running? Wouldn't he prefer to be collecting purse money, rather than just leaving the horse in a barn? If he said the horse needed a break, I'm not sure why you'd be skeptical.

A 4K horse is running for a win purse of say $5400. Of which the trainer gets, $540, 10%. If the horse isn't hitting the board, he might as well be in a stall. The trainer is not making any more than the day rate. If all he does is feed the horse and provide little care outside of that, the horses monthly cost to the trainer is minimal.

In my case he had shipped the horse to another state to be boarded (say $15 a day) but we're paying our trainer $50 a day. In the partnership I was never given a breakdown of expenses, just the total and what my percentage was. It was a learning expereince.

[DeanT]

How exactly does a trainer benefit by not running a horse that is capable of running? Wouldn't he prefer to be collecting purse money, rather than just leaving the horse in a barn? If he said the horse needed a break, I'm not sure why you'd be skeptical.
Hey Steve,

It's gone on since the beginning of time in racing. With some (thankfully few) so called trainers.

$250 or $300 stall rent, $10/day for feed and whatever. Cost $600 a month, bill out $2200. Make $1600 per horse, per month for doing nothing.

After the run-around stops and the "looks like he wont make it back", you have lost and he has made many thousands.

[onefast99]

Hey Steve,

It's gone on since the beginning of time in racing. With some (thankfully few) so called trainers.

$250 or $300 stall rent, $10/day for feed and whatever. Cost $600 a month, bill out $2200. Make $1600 per horse, per month for doing nothing.

After the run-around stops and the "looks like he wont make it back", you have lost and he has made many thousands.
For just feed it is $23 per day.

[JWBurnie]

For just feed it is $23 per day.

They cut corners. It's the supplements that would make it a price of $23 a day, I would think. If not, what kind of feed are you talking about?

[ryesteve]

Maybe I misinterpreted... itt sounds more like you're talking about a trainer doing the opposite of what I had in mind... keeping a horse "in training", even though he's NOT capable of running in the forseeable future. Yes, that'd be larcenous, I'd say...

[JWBurnie]

Maybe I misinterpreted... itt sounds more like you're talking about a trainer doing the opposite of what I had in mind... keeping a horse "in training", even though he's NOT capable of running in the forseeable future. Yes, that'd be larcenous, I'd say...

It goes on all too often. I mean seriously, why would you want a low level claimer as an owner? Few actually pay for their keep. However, these are the horses that keep a lot of trainers profitable and in business.

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=JWBurnie]I've heard of people installing video cameras at the stables. If you don't mind me asking, how expensive was it? I actually try and make it out for training 4-5 times a week. No better way to start a day IMO.

I had always wonder if a service was provided to owners that would allow them to view live stream of their horses activity every morning, if owners would purchase the service. I know I would on mornings I couldn't make it out.[/QUOTE

This is done as a security vehicle only you wont get the view of each horse working out. Only a wide view of the stalls where the horses are most of the time. Ours shows the stalls and the front of the barn area in a wide view format. I will look at the bill to see the total cost as two owners split the bill.

[onefast99]

They cut corners. It's the supplements that would make it a price of $23 a day, I would think. If not, what kind of feed are you talking about?
This includes sweet feed oats and bedding and supplements, bran, cracked corn, soybean and flaxseed.

[DeanT]

They cut corners. It's the supplements that would make it a price of $23 a day, I would think. If not, what kind of feed are you talking about?

Bran mash mixed with caviar :)

Turn out is max $600 a month all in with paddock time and general care. If you are getting charged $23 a day just for feed I would suggest you choose another place to turn out your horses.

[ralph_the_cat]

sounds like most trainers are riping their owners off... If it costs any owner over $2,000 a month to own a horse... your getting robbed... its that simple... your being lied to... trainers dont answer to anyone... and if your trainer is charging you more than $30 a day, hes making a nice junk of change off your day rate...

I dont believe to many trainers use "bute" and "banamine" every day... com'on... bute everyday for long periods, a couple months can really harm an animal... If a trainer spends $30 a day for but and banamine, hes retarded... not to mention u can buy tablets for less than $50 that last an entire month... same goes for the Clenbuterol... I could undestand everyday for a short period, maybe 2 or 3 weeks if the horse has a breathing problem... but to say that every month a horse is going to get over $200 in the stuff is crazy... Your trainer is using and abusing drugs... giving a horse some bute, banamine and clenbuterol for 2 or 3 days before the race has the same effect on an animal as it does if you gave him the same for 30days before the race...(in most cases)... clenbuterol works immediately to open up the bronchial tubes... no need to give it to a horse for long periods if the horse is fit...

[northerndancer]

Northern Dancer, $1200 a month for vet? Is that just one horse who has problems or do you have a couple or a few there? And the $85 a day is on the high side too. I know you could get a very capable trainer for much lower costs.

Zaf, thanks, I like to take a cynical/realistic approach to the blog and what I use for content.

Cangamble thanks for pointing out the vet charge per month that was a misprint on my behalf..... my vet bills at Woodbine have consistently run on average $500 per month per horse.......

The $85 I pay I think is fair based on the quality of work performed by the trainer and his staff..... I used to have a private trainer and will never go that route again....... as long as I stay in the $25,000 Claimers and up there is profit at the end of every year (maybe not on every horse)..... when you dip into the $16,000 Claimers and below then it gets real tough to make a profit.

[northerndancer]

The last time I looked one of our stakes horses got a charge of $90 for one clembuterol application. I would check around on the $275 price unless you are racing 3x per month and if you are your vet bills will be that high.

Your charge of $90 was for one application..... if using a 440 ml bottle the vet will get many doses out of that bottle...... a few years back I went to buying my own Chlem and having it shipped to my trainers and allow them to administer..... the cost of the large bottle of Chlem $198.00 and that lasts a month for each horse.