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View Full Version : Universal Health Care Is Not A Good Thing


tonto1944
01-08-2008, 10:07 AM
Hillary has been pushing Universal Health Care for 15 yrs. From what I have seen it doesn't work.There are people I know in Canada that have it and say it is terrible. One of them's Husband has a Blood disease and vascular problems,so bad he can't walk. He has been trying to see a specialist for months. He has to travel 560 miles every 2 weeks to have his Blood disease taken care of because the only Hospitol that takes care of that particular disease is that far away. Mean while he has 2 Major Hospitols in a 5 mile distence from his house.
There was a woman online in Pogo who has to fly from England to the USA to have a Surgery , because there is no one in England or the area that can do the Surgery. And the joke is the Doctor who is doing the Sur. in the USA is originaly from England. And according to the woman we know in Canada most of their top Doctors have left Canada and come to the USA.
I believe the only people that should have health care and be taken care of are Children up to 18 and are still in school and up to 21 if the go to college. And also any person over 75 even 80 if you like. The Seniors are the ones that got this country to where it is today. They worked their butts off for little money. Put their kids through school and took care of business.My Dad was a Bricklayer worked very hard. From doing his job his hands were like giant pieces of granit from working with the mortor,bricks and cynder blocks.
You take care of the people who brought you to the dance.

phatbastard
01-08-2008, 10:22 AM
......surely there are arguments on both sides.....Lobbyists ensure that medical personel, drug companies and insurers will hold sway

any of those willing to keep an open mind should view Sicko...it might open your eyes

Grits
01-08-2008, 10:29 AM
This is a shame, and universal healthcare may not be an answer. Be that as it may, still, tell your healthcare idea and plan to the forty five year old father of four, who too, maybe be working with his hands, and because he is self employed, may not be able to afford healthcare coverage for his family of six, and his wife has been diagnosed with breast cancer, or ovarian cancer.

Its a bit difficult to ascertain who has the "right" to healthcare coverage. I wouldn't want such a decision on my shoulders.

And yes, those that brought us to the dance are growing in number every day, many of those do not live to see the age of 80.

JustRalph
01-08-2008, 10:30 AM
......surely there are arguments on both sides.....Lobbyists ensure that medical personel, drug companies and insurers will hold sway

any of those willing to keep an open mind should view Sicko...it might open your eyes


Yeah, right. I will take my advice from M. Moore? Now I know your true Identity...........

phatbastard
01-08-2008, 10:46 AM
..its a movie...i know slanted....but it gives some perspective

i have no one place to be pigeonholed as i keep an open mind and pick and choose which side of political arguments i adhere too. many on the same side as you i'm sure....i am not bullied by either side and follow what i believe are common sense issues.....


closed minded blind faith following of one agenda is not very smart or interesting

Lefty
01-08-2008, 11:30 AM
The facts always seem to weigh against Universal healthcare or too call it what it really is, Socialized medicine. People in Canada and elsewhere have waited months some years for healthcare they need. Good Doctors will leave the socialist system for the most part and we'll het the lesser skilled ones.
I do not want the govt in charge of my healthcare. It is precisely the the govt's interference over the years that have made it what it is today. Right now, Canada gets their prescription drugs from us, don't they? If we get this socialized medicine, what incentive will the big drug companies have to research and make lifesaving drugs? Without the profit incentive, our health system might just MM's dream and our nightmare. As bad as Cuba's where people sleep on dirty sheets and onlythe elite get good healthcare.
Our healthcare as it stands, needs improvement, but it's still the best in the world. After all, 280 MILLION or More, INSURED.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 11:35 AM
Hillary has been pushing Universal Health Care for 15 yrs. From what I have seen it doesn't work.There are people I know in Canada that have it and say it is terrible.
It has it's local problems but it is far from terrible especially in cases of catastrophic illness. My late wife had the best of care for over 10 years and was on the list for a lung transplant when she died. She was denied nothing in her care with home visits from nurses, ambulance service one day when I was not home to take her in an emergency, ER care, medications, home medical equipment etc.

Keep believing the system currently is the best and just wait till the big C, or similar catastrophic diesease hits. There goes your LIFE savings!!

The insurance bean counters run the show in the US. My late father, a 45 year company man with what he thought was health care, USED HIS INSURANCE TWICE in all that time. My sister had to sue the carrier to cover the costs when he died......Absolute AMORAL ASS HOLES!!!!!!

Lefty
01-08-2008, 11:51 AM
zilly, I really am sorry to hear about your wife. She was a Doctor'swife and didn't that factor in to her care? I'm not saying it did, just asking the question.
I still like our system, warts it all, over some govt official directing my healthcare. They use bean counters too, that's what the budget is all about.
And, I wouldn't want the level of taxes you have in Canada. I'm not convinced socialism trumps capitalism in anything.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 12:14 PM
zilly, I really am sorry to hear about your wife. She was a Doctor's wife and didn't that factor in to her care?
NO. Not a bit, only maybe I was able to pick up on exacerbations of symptoms earlier than others, but care wise NO difference.

You have NO working knowledge of what it takes to care for the sick. Zero.

It has changed in this part of the country as the asses in power are moving toward making it again fee for service through generation of equivalents of the HMO (and the Canada Health Act has, so far, stopped them cold). I am soon changing my family doctor (the one I had for years) as he has taken up with the corporate format and I can never even see him any longer without going through countless layers of idiot front office people.

You go through a long term, slowly degrading catastrophic illness and see how it changes your perspective, particularly when you see your life's partner (40 years together from the time we were 15 and 16) slip down to 82 pounds, on 24 hour a day oxygen and still not able to get her breath comfortably.

Sitting in the "theoretical" Ivory Tower makes these things a bit different than having lived through them

Greyfox
01-08-2008, 12:31 PM
Sitting in the "theoretical" Ivory Tower makes these things a bit different than having lived through them

46zil you moved to Canada and it sounds as though your wife received good care.
If you would have stayed in the United States, would the costs of that care been different than you had to pay in Canada? Could you afford the same coverage in the U.S.?

Lefty
01-08-2008, 12:35 PM
Once again, truly sorry about you wife.
But too assume I haven't had catastrophic illnesses in my family is sillyzilly. How can you make such assumptions?
You guys pay exorbitent taxes for your healthcare do you not? And the 1st poster told about his real experiences, are you discounting those?
My dad died from a long illness. So I have a leetle knowledge of it.
My wife had an operation 6 months ago that kept her out of work for 6 months. If we had Universal Healthcare(socialized medicine)I bet she would still be waiting for that operation. I don't want to trust the govt with my healthcare. After all we are still paying for the debacle in 64 called the Great Society and Medicare. Don't need evenmore of it. So far it has cost this country over 6.4 TRILLION. Don't need anymore of it. You glow about the healhcare system in Canada, zilly, but there are more stories than yours coming from there and most of them are not as happy with the suystem as you are.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 12:36 PM
If you would have stayed in the United States, would the costs of that care been different than you had to pay in Canada? Could you have afforded the same coverage in the U.S.?
Day and Night difference. I would have gone bankrupt over the ten years she went downhill.

No, but then my income would have been much higher but so would the overhead, particularly in the malpractice area. HERE, any cases that MIGHT be heading to court are first reviewed for their merit by a commission of three: a physician, an ombudsman, and a lawyer. They review and IF they think there MIGHT be a case, they report same to the courts.

In the U.S,. any ambulance chaser can take a case to court over nothing hoping to frighten the physician into settling out or court. Hence the enormous difference in malpractice premiums.

Greyfox
01-08-2008, 12:38 PM
Day and Night difference. I would have gone bankrupt over the ten years she went downhill.

.

Thank you. :ThmbUp:

DeanT
01-08-2008, 12:58 PM
If you were employed you would have went bankrupt? I find that hard to believe. If so, that is an insurance problem that a company needs to fix, not a system that needs overhauling.

In Canada our system is poor. We stand in line like cattle to get some simple procedures. It is not a good system. If it was our former Prime Minister would not have jumped on a plane to the US to get care when he was sick. Our dental system works perfectly and it is the US system. We need to tweak ours to make it better, and private insurance is one way to do that.

The US system is not a panacea, but citizens who are employed get the best care in the entire world. Get rid of trial lawyer lobbyists and insurance lobbyists and get something done to help insure the less fortunate. That is all that needs to happen, imo.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 01:03 PM
If you were employed you would have went bankrupt? I find that hard to believe. If so, that is an insurance problem that a company needs to fix, not a system that needs overhauling.


My sister does coding/billing at Saddle Back Medical Center in Laguna Hills CA. She often calls me when she has a difficult surgery to understand.

She keeps me current on the costs and the level of costs there WOULD HAVE done what I said. Even when you are ostensibly COVERED, the clowns won't pay which was the bulk of what SICKO tried to show.

If you ever get the chance watch Laura Dern in a Showtime special called "Damaged Care" about the life of Dr. Linda Peno and he fight to expose the HMO industry. It is an eye opener. Her talk to Congress was shown in the movie Sicko.

Grits
01-08-2008, 01:16 PM
The US system is not a panacea, but citizens who are employed get the best care in the entire world. Get rid of trial lawyer lobbyists and insurance lobbyists and get something done to help insure the less fortunate. That is all that needs to happen, imo.

When you're the richest nation in the world DeanT, and you have the number of people we have without healthcare coverage, believe me, something is terribly wrong. No it is not a panacea, certainly not.

And talk to some that "work" and let them tell you about their experiences.

The healthcare system in this country is run by insurance companies. The insurance companies are by far more wealthy than any attorneys, I don't care whether they are ambulance chasers or trial lawyers.

As the population ages, due to medical technology, we are able to keep people alive longer, often, at extraordinary costs, this problem will only get worse. Something, sooner or later, will give. It has to, its to great a problem for it not to.

DeanT
01-08-2008, 01:18 PM
Thanks for that 46.

That is what I allude to. Doctors are paying up the ass for malpractice insurance. Insurance cuts costs in myriad ways to pay for all the crap. The patient tends to suffer. I understand that.

It is, like most things, politics. Down there is Bush going to alienate his insurance lobby? John Edwards? Ya right, he is really going to tackle his buddies at the law firm.

Same thing as up here. Remember in Ontario there was a "traveling MRI" bus. It was owned by an American company and it was a response to us waiting months to get an MRI. They were shut down. Politics.

Making Canada look good in movies or whatever is pure politics, too. Someone in the US can not get care so we see them on Oprah and some bought and paid for politician trudges them out, saying "if she was in Canada she would be fine". Pure garbage. If my son falls off a swing and needs an MRI he is waiting for months. If I need a surgery for chronic pain I am waiting for months. That is just as much "sicko'd" as the US or any other place with health care problems.

My dog can get speedier care than I can here. That is just plain wrong.

Can the US be better? Yes. Can Canada, yes. The US might need a bit more public private mix, but we do here as well.

DeanT
01-08-2008, 01:21 PM
When you're the richest nation in the world DeanT, and you have the number of people we have without healthcare coverage, believe me, something is terribly wrong. No it is not a panacea, certainly not.

And talk to some that "work" and let them tell you about their experiences.

The healthcare system in this country is run by insurance companies. The insurance companies are by far more wealthy than any attorneys, I don't care whether they are ambulance chasers or trial lawyers.

As the population ages, due to medical technology, we are able to keep people alive longer, often, at extraordinary costs, this problem will only get worse. Something, sooner or later, will give. It has to, its to great a problem for it not to.

I tend to agree. But my point is, dont throw the baby out with the bath water. Your doctors are tops, your drug research is tops. You are doing many things right. Tweak it, dont go like us. Trust me on that.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 01:25 PM
Same thing as up here. Remember in Ontario there was a "traveling MRI" bus. It was owned by an American company and it was a response to us waiting months to get an MRI. They were shut down. Politics.

No, they, like so many of the HMO like clinics here, were shut down due to the Canada Health Act, pure and simply. That act was enabled quite a long time ago and has not been altered that much.

DeanT
01-08-2008, 01:31 PM
No, they, like so many of the HMO like clinics here, were shut down due to the Canada Health Act, pure and simply.

Same thing. Politics. Try and change it to better us as citizens. All you will get is demagougery.

Things are slowly changing, tho. When private clinics to take some pressure off the system are brought up we are now working around it. Waiting times might be slowly getting better. Polls are moving as well. Generally people are pretty smart. We know that we dont wait in line at the vet, or at the dentist, and we know that those are private. So, a public-private mix is slowly sipping into the mainstream. It is about time. Waiting like cattle to get surgery is something that we think of happening in 1912 Russia, not in a rich country like ours in the 21st century.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 01:36 PM
The culprits are in the pharmacy areas too, as the mark up on meds is criminal.

There should be limits to the bogus psychological attack on people's ignorance in the area of pharmaceuticals.

"Ask your doctor" What a load of horse manure,,,,er Pig manure, I don't find the former objectionable.

Tom
01-08-2008, 01:48 PM
Why the fear of patients questioning thier doctors? I think it is a good idea.
It is my health, why should I not ask about a new medication? If the doctor is up on things, he should be able to tell me no, it will not be good for you because........

And btw, the cost of developing a new drug is astronomical as well.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 01:50 PM
Why the fear of patients questioning thier doctors? I think it is a good idea.
It is my health, why should I not ask about a new medication? If the doctor is up on things, he should be able to tell me no, it will not be good for you because........

And btw, the cost of developing a new drug is astronomical as well.

They SHOULD know and it is part of our job to teach them but putting this psychological seed of fear into otherwise rational, though uninformed people, is criminal.

They put on PURE bull shit to frighten individual into thinking they MIGHT have one thing or another. Restless Legs Syndrome for example. I saw exactly ONE case of it in 30 years. ONE case.

DeanT
01-08-2008, 01:59 PM
Why the fear of patients questioning thier doctors? I think it is a good idea.
It is my health, why should I not ask about a new medication? If the doctor is up on things, he should be able to tell me no, it will not be good for you because........

And btw, the cost of developing a new drug is astronomical as well.

I think 46 makes a good point Tom. The doling out of prescription drugs is an easy way out now.

Tons of drugs are fantastic. Celebrex for example has helped people with chronic pain live a good life, be productive and get off short-term disability etc. It is a drug that helps people as well as the economy. That's amazing stuff, imo. Some meds however are really abused, imo. A family member went to a doctor because she could not sleep. I am not sure what the drug was, but it was one of those mind drugs, that was prescribed. She called another doctor and he told her to throw them away. When she was telling her friends about the episode, no less than 5 of them were on the drug.

Mark ups and prescribing drugs as an easy way to "fix" things is a slippery slope, imo, and very inefficient in economic terms.

JMO on that, but I think your pal has a point.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 02:03 PM
Celebrex, is a good example of what is NOT being told to people. If you have an allergy to ANY of the sulfonamides, you will be allergic to this one. I was amazed at how many people were not aware of that.

Cox-2 inhibitors are specific to blocking the inflammatory intermediates that in other drugs, (ASA for example when you inhibit an inhibitor you secondarily accentuate it) promote increased gastric secretions (acids) so the majority of the standard anti-inflammatories will, in time, eat up your stomach and cause occult bleeding.

There are "shoppers" who go to different doctors each day of the week to load up on different meds. We have established a central checking system called PharmaNet to find out about them now.

JustRalph
01-08-2008, 02:30 PM
When you're the richest nation in the world DeanT, and you have the number of people we have without healthcare coverage, believe me, something is terribly wrong. No it is not a panacea, certainly not.


Don't forget that up to 12 million of those without healthcare are Illeg. Aliens

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Don't forget that up to 12 million of those without healthcare are Illeg. Aliens
Ah the xenophobe card!...Took you awhile today,

Just show them your concealed weapon. That should make amends for the entire problem: BRUTE FORCE trauma.

Robert Goren
01-08-2008, 03:21 PM
My insurance went from work went good to bad amost over night. They became self-insured. Last year I spent 3 weeks in the hospital. They wait a year and then fired me. I had done the same job for 20 years. All the new hires in the since they have become self-insured are under 25. They are doing same job I did for the same pay.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 03:23 PM
One of the things UNKNOWN to many, is how one HMO will sell all it's assets to a larger one, then ever so slowly CHANGE the coverage in the fine print, then tell you it is not covered. Happens all the time. SURPRISE!!!

Tom
01-08-2008, 03:38 PM
Ah the xenophobe card!...Took you awhile today,

Just show them your concealed weapon. That should make amends for the entire problem: BRUTE FORCE trauma.

No, a valid point - the burden of health care costs is tremendous because of the illegals who have NO RIGHT TO HAVE US PAY THIER WAY. Take that fat out of the system and then look at what it will cost AMERICAN TAXPAYERS to cover AMERICANS. You cannot discuss healthcare costs without discussing those who leech the system. You use of xenophobe is totally ridiculous here and has no place in an inteligent discussion (D'OH!)
Let's take your point of view further - you say Canada has good health care? Then why can't Ralph expect YOU to pay for his coverage? EXACT same thinkg, 46, EXACT same thing. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and cover any American who shows up looking for a handout? IF not, then keep your trap shut about calling us names.



Celebrex, is a good example of what is NOT being told to people. If you have an allergy to ANY of the sulfonamides, you will be allergic to this one. I was amazed at how many people were not aware of that.

And that is why we are told to ASK YOUR DOCTOR. It is HIS job to know that. Your reply, as usual, fails to address the topic at hand. And WHY would you be amazed that so many people were not aware of something that is not general day to day knowledge? You assume that everyone should know all the various drug catagories and the allergic similarities between them?

Tom
01-08-2008, 03:40 PM
One of the things UNKNOWN to many, is how one HMO will sell all it's assets to a larger one, then ever so slowly CHANGE the coverage in the fine print, then tell you it is not covered. Happens all the time. SURPRISE!!!

Name me three American companies that did that in 2007.

I received four notices of coverage changes in that year - all to my benefit.

phatbastard
01-08-2008, 03:57 PM
...lefty said:

The facts always seem to weigh against Universal healthcare or too call it what it really is, Socialized medicine. People in Canada and elsewhere have waited months some years for healthcare they need.


and folks in US will wait forever.....it just isn't available to those without insurance.....

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 04:09 PM
Name me three American companies that did that in 2007.

I received four notices of coverage changes in that year - all to my benefit.

As per usual YOUR experience MUST be the same as all others or it is to be nuked!!

Humana is one as it is shown in the movie Damaged Care, much to their chagrin I'm sure.

There were two more in the movie, another from Kentucky called Brothers care service and one that lost a $78.5 million lawsuit for suspending care in Florida. That was Humana, so only two were shown here.

chickenhead
01-08-2008, 04:14 PM
I know my girlfriends sister had neither insurance nor two dimes to rub together, had breast cancer, and was treated fully. Maybe it was Medicaid, I don't know.

So I guess the people we're concerned with are not the very poor, as they'll be eligible for Medicaid, but those that make enough money to not be eligible for Medicaid, but not enough to purchase private insurance?

I don't have the stats on me at the moment, but a large number of the uninsured here in the US are eligible for Medicaid, but have not signed up, for whatever reason. Something like 30%.

delayjf
01-08-2008, 04:32 PM
Its not just the Drug Companies and Insurance Companies.

Unscupulous doctors also add to the final bill. I've got a friend that is a healthcare consultant and he can tell stories by the hour of medical insurance fraud, fraudulent billing, patient recruiting etc. Just last week he was telling me about how a Doc hired him to advise him about how to get through his RICO investigation. He ended up leaving the country. I also work with some attorneys that used to prosecute these guys. Here is SoCal, they just busted a medical fraud ring that socked it to medicare for 34 million and there were only three Doctors involved.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 04:38 PM
There are TONS of unscrupulous clowns in the profession. By getting out of it, I feel relieved not be associated with the scum bags I previously interacted with daily.

CryingForTheHorses
01-08-2008, 07:08 PM
Hillary has been pushing Universal Health Care for 15 yrs. From what I have seen it doesn't work.There are people I know in Canada that have it and say it is terrible. One of them's Husband has a Blood disease and vascular problems,so bad he can't walk. He has been trying to see a specialist for months. He has to travel 560 miles every 2 weeks to have his Blood disease taken care of because the only Hospitol that takes care of that particular disease is that far away. Mean while he has 2 Major Hospitols in a 5 mile distence from his house.
There was a woman online in Pogo who has to fly from England to the USA to have a Surgery , because there is no one in England or the area that can do the Surgery. And the joke is the Doctor who is doing the Sur. in the USA is originaly from England. And according to the woman we know in Canada most of their top Doctors have left Canada and come to the USA.
I believe the only people that should have health care and be taken care of are Children up to 18 and are still in school and up to 21 if the go to college. And also any person over 75 even 80 if you like. The Seniors are the ones that got this country to where it is today. They worked their butts off for little money. Put their kids through school and took care of business.My Dad was a Bricklayer worked very hard. From doing his job his hands were like giant pieces of granit from working with the mortor,bricks and cynder blocks.
You take care of the people who brought you to the dance.

You are very wrong telling the people that the healthcare system in Canada is bad.I am a canadian that grew up on that system and it served me well as my family. My father had a double lung transplant and he is now fine. To say this about the system shows you are just talking about 1 person that you know. Canada my cost a lot but they do take care of their people. I have seen homeless people go to the hosiptal and be taken care of.The healthcare system works in Canada and it would work here if given the chance.

Lefty
01-08-2008, 07:50 PM
...lefty said:

The facts always seem to weigh against Universal healthcare or too call it what it really is, Socialized medicine. People in Canada and elsewhere have waited months some years for healthcare they need.


and folks in US will wait forever.....it just isn't available to those without insurance.....
Really? You can walk into any County Hospital and they, by law, cannot turn you away. The last time I took my wife to the Emergency room they had 3 "ranting." people in beds and getting care and no insurance! One reason mine is so high.
Also, about 10 yrars ago, a friend of mine went to the hospital with a very serios condition, stayed there a week, and he had no insurance.

hcap
01-08-2008, 07:58 PM
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_01/012860.php

"BEST HEALTHCARE IN THE WORLD, BABY....A pair of researchers has just published an update that compares various countries on their rates of "amenable mortality," defined as deaths that are "potentially preventable with timely and effective health care." In 1997, the United States ranked 15th out of 19 industrialized countries. So how are we doing now?

Answer: we're now 19th out of 19. The rest of the countries have improved their performance by an average of 16%, while the U.S., that well-known engine of healthcare innovation, has improved by only 4%. So now we're in last place.

But there's a bright side: at least our healthcare isn't funded by the government, like it is in France. Keep that in mind if someone you know dies of preventable causes. Their odds would have been a whole lot better in Paris, but who'd want to live in a socialist hellhole like that anyway?" :lol:

Lefty evidently the World Wide Socialist Conspiracy is FRENCH!!

.....Tom, should we nuke the Frogs???


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/blogphotos/Blog_Deaths_Amenable_Healthcare.gif

Greyfox
01-08-2008, 08:05 PM
Deaths per 100,000 may have nothing to do with health care.
I'd query that stat and want a lot more info before buying it.

hcap
01-08-2008, 08:21 PM
Actually it is a fairly accurate way of judging Health Care systems.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=640980

"In "Measuring the Health of Nations: Updating an Earlier Analysis" (Health Affairs, Jan./Feb. 2008), Ellen Nolte, Ph.D., and C. Martin McKee, M.D., D.Sc., both of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, compared international rates of "amenable mortality"—that is, deaths from certain causes before age 75 that are potentially preventable with timely and effective health care."

"The concept of amenable mortality was developed in the 1970s to assess the quality and performance of health systems and to track changes over time. For this study, the researchers used data from the World Health Organization on deaths from conditions considered amenable to health care, such as treatable cancers, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease."



.....Many Lives in U.S. Could Be Saved

"The researchers estimated the number of lives that could have been saved in 2002 if the U.S. had achieved either the average of all countries analyzed (except the U.S.) or the average of the three top-performing countries. Using this formula, the authors estimated that approximately 75,000 to 101,00 preventable deaths could be averted in the U.S. "[E]ven the more conservative estimate of 75,000 deaths is almost twice the Institute of Medicine's (lower) estimate of the number of deaths attributable to medical errors in the United States each year," the authors say."

phatbastard
01-08-2008, 08:29 PM
it would be so easy to do.......except that senators....congressmen...and i hate to conjecture whom else would need to be removed from lobbyists pockets.....it only makes sense

this line of crap that we are being sold is nuts......meds are 200-300% higher here......a heart attack can cost 100.000 dollars.....these guys wouldn't even help children

ruthless self serving bigots

Tom
01-08-2008, 08:40 PM
As per usual YOUR experience MUST be the same as all others or it is to be nuked!! Like we should never use Happy Broadbent becasue YOU don't like him? Grow up, DUDE.

Humana is one as it is shown in the movie Damaged Care, much to their chagrin I'm sure.

There were two more in the movie, another from Kentucky called Brothers care service and one that lost a $78.5 million lawsuit for suspending care in Florida. That was Humana, so only two were shown here.

Only two....that sure sounds like ALL THE TIME.

46zilzal
01-08-2008, 10:29 PM
Only two....that sure sounds like ALL THE TIME.
These were the only two verifiable...I guess I could have put up several more since you never seem to check any of them.

Greyfox
01-08-2008, 10:35 PM
These were the only two verifiable...I guess I could have put up several more since you never seem to check any of them.

Only two?
46 Zil...One would be enough for me to check the fine print.
The fact is:
The majority of most individuals health care costs come within the last 6 weeks of their lives.
Yes, I made that up.
But I'll stand by it, from observation.
Your survivors take the bill.

Tom
01-08-2008, 10:51 PM
These were the only two verifiable...I guess I could have put up several more since you never seem to check any of them.

Well, YOU said ALL THE TIME, so I figured you knew what you were talking about. My bad!:lol::lol::lol:

Greyfox
01-08-2008, 11:21 PM
Well, YOU said ALL THE TIME, so I figured you knew what you were talking about. My bad!:lol::lol::lol:

The majority of most individuals health care costs come within the last 6 weeks of their lives.

He who :lol: :lol: last, laughs hardest.
Unfortunately....the costs come after your gone..

Lefty
01-08-2008, 11:24 PM
phats, what do you mean? Who wouldn't help children?

h'cap, you have the right idea. America is a capitialist society. But France might be a great idea for you wannabe Socialists.

hcap
01-09-2008, 08:20 AM
Although Ralph and Tom pointed out some difficulties with the French health care system over on the Sibel Edmunds thread, I want to point out that as a percentage of GDP, France is still spending only approx 1/2 on health care as we are. In fact we spend the largest percentage compared to other industrialized countries.

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/images/figure-1.gif


And perform very badly overall.......

Canada and the United States rank poorly on some health status
indicators, although Canada outperforms the United States
Health Indicators
1
Rank Infant Mortality Rate Cancer Mortality Rate Heart Disease mortality
per 1,000 births per 100,000 persons per 100,000 persons
(1997*) (1995**) (1995***)
1 Japan (3.7) Japan (156) France (173)
2 Sweden (4.0) Sweden (158) Japan (178)
3 Germany (4.8) Australia (177) Canada (227)
4 France (4.8) United States (183) Australia (255)
5 Australia (5.3) Canada (184) Italy (271)
6 Denmark (5.6) Germany (184) Sweden (273)
7 United Kingdom (5.9) France (186) United States (280)
8 Canada (6.0) Italy (195) United Kingdom (282)
9 Italy (6.2) United Kingdom (192) Germany (308)
10 United States (7.8) Denmark (227) Denmark (328)

According to a 2000 study of the World Health Organization, publicly funded systems of industrial nations spend less on health care, both as a percentage of their GDP and per capita, and enjoy superior population-based health care outcomes.

Tom
01-09-2008, 09:28 AM
Bottom line - where would you rather live?
I see you are still here.

BTW, YOUR guys have had 12 months - can you point out anything they have caccomplished to "fix" this problem? :lol::lol::lol:

Do you know how silly you guys sound???
" Look at this mess! Who the hell do I think I am? When am I going to do something about this?

Your comments would be better addressed to Bin Losi of Dingy Harry - the biggest failures in the history of Congress. As you know, Bush has no power to do anything in this are - it the realm of Congress. YOUR congress.

Vote Change...Vote Republican

Grits
01-09-2008, 10:03 AM
Noted below in quotes is what the report and graphs that are posted failed to indicate.

So, basically, what this tells me is the report is comparing apples and oranges. In other words, its inadequate. It is not a level playing field.

So much for a UK report.

This country has problems with its healthcare system; no doubt about it. But the day and hour, I board the next plane to Spain or to France, if I'm diagnosed with cancer or heart disease, assuming, even believing, I'll receive better treatment, better care, more knowledgable physicians and healthcare staff--IT WILL TRULY BE A COLD DAY IN HELL.

It will not happen because we have, in this place we all live, the finest medical facilities and the top doctors in the world. And people from all over the world continue to come HERE for medical treatment.

Who flies to Spain and France, when they have access to:

Hopkins
Mayo Clinic
Cleveland Clinic
Mass. General
Duke
UCLA

All of which are the top hospitals in the world.

I am not arguing based on politics. I think it foolish to do so. The thread is regarding the healthcare crisis, as we know it.

Two big factors contribute to the country's poor showing: the 47 million people lacking health insurance and the high cost of healthcare even for many who have coverage. "We are the only country in the study that doesn't have insurance for the whole population," says Cathy Schoen, a senior vice president at the Commonwealth Fund, a healthcare think tank that funded the study. In addition, high cost-sharing can lead people to delay getting necessary care, she says. "Other countries don't have that barrier."

Schoen notes that countries with universal health coverage can take a systematic approach to improving standards of care. Both the United Kingdom and France have zeroed in on improving heart disease and cancer treatment, for example, identifying best practices by providers and encouraging their adoption nationwide. And thanks to wide use of electronic medical records there, it's far easier to ensure that people with chronic conditions get the ongoing care that they need, she says.

Lefty
01-09-2008, 11:23 AM
hcap, zilly et al always extolling the virtues of other countries' health care but those that can come here. Hmmmm....

hcap
01-09-2008, 04:57 PM
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_05/008728.php

Let's see. You MAY be a Conservative if you believe some of the following....

1. Single payer plans are socialistic and therefore ipso facto evil.

2. I know someone who knows someone who's related to someone from Canada who had to wait for tennis elbow surgery for months and months and came to the US and he had the surgery immediately and it saved his life.

3. Look what's happening in France right now; their health care is socialized and there are riots in the streets.

4. We have the best health care in the world and anyone who says otherwise is part of the blame-America-first liberal socialistic treasonous left.

5. Anybody who wants insurance coverage can get it, and the only reason some people don't it's because they don't want to.

6. People who get sick got sick because they weren't paying attention to their diets, etc. and they are therefore to blame for their problems; why should the taxpayer pay for lazy people who sit around eating hamburgers and watching TV and so get fat and sick?

7. Those who can't afford health care cannot do so because they are lazy and do not work hard enough to afford to pay for what they need in life and so they want me to pay for their expenses.

8. Those with children who cannot afford health care for their children shouldn't have had any children and to have done so was irresponsible; if we reward them with free health care they'll never become responsible.

9. Italians are disappearing because they don't reproduce enough, and they have socialized medicine, which obviously has not helped them to continue surviving as an ethnic group.

10. What we need is to promote preventive medicine so that nobody gets sick again.

11. All we need to do is make sure insurance companies do not have to pay any taxes whatsoever, which will undoubtedly lead to more competition, better care and lower prices.

12. Cuba has socialized medicine; you want to live in Cuba?

13. All statistics quoted by supporters of socialistic remedies to health care are false or faked, a priori; all anecdotes offered by opponents of health care are true and accurate, a priori.

14. With socialized medicine, research into new drugs and therapies will stop immediately, because it is the current healthy competition among our insurance companies that directly drives medical research.

15. Our problem is too much health care, and people tend to abuse the system by going to the doctor too often. With socialized care, we'll get even more abuse, while the market forces of free capitalism will discourage the slightly sick from tying up the system with complaints about sniffles.

16. The problem with health care is Medicaid and Medicare, which encourage the poor and the old to get sick more often.

17. I don't want my tax dollars paying for someone else's sex change operation, abortion, [insert your own "morally" objectionable procedure].

18. Liberals are for it? Then I'm against it.

19. Health care resources are limited. There needs to be some way to ration them. If we nationalize the healthcare system how is it decided who gets what?

20. Americans don't walk and eat too much junk and that's why they are sicker than the citizens of other nations whose health care systems are therefore cheaper and more efficient.

21. America racial pool is mixed and not all of us are therefore equally endowed with perfect Anglo genes and that's why some Europeans who are more Anglo than us are healthier and that's why their health care systems are cheaper and more efficient. If we didn't have brown immigrants, the eastern European immigrants, the southern European immigrants, and those others...

22. La, la, la, la, I can't hear anything, la, la, la, you liberals are idiots and you suck, la, la, la...........

Hmmmm.....? :lol:

robert99
01-09-2008, 05:43 PM
hcap,

Like the dodo, the few brain dead conservatives left are gradually dieing out and no amount of medical care will save them.

Surprised that UK as the inventor and capitalist centre of the world is not regarded by some as capitalist. The current socialist Government has again rescued the UK free at point of use health service from the usual cheap jack funding by the former Conservative Government. It was going the way of Canada, but now waiting lists are greatly shortened, hospital stays are shorter and more comfortable. Pressure is put on drug companies to give bulk deals to reduce costs and performance quality is monitored to "death". More people actually come from overseas to the Harley St type private clinics than USA and there are just as many advanced techniques used as used to be the case in USA, until the insurance companies frightened them off.

Before WW11 there was no health insurance and no free health service - if you could afford it, you were treated, if not you suffered and quite easily treated illnesses such as rickets and tuberculosis were rife. Women died in labour at home just as in the days of Dickens. The socialist Government of the 1940s put a free health service for all in place, as a priority. One aspect was sickness prevention so kids had free milk, orange juice and cod-liver oil etc to build up healthy bodies and there are a series of regular free check-up calls, immunisations etc to prevent a small problem from escalating. An escalated problem costs far more in medical care, doctor and nursing resources, as well as lost working days.

I think that your per capita figures of $2317 (UK) and $5711 (USA) show the difference up quite clearly. USA costs are now out of control and as people live longer and expect more and more advanced treatment the insurance method will surely crack, if it is has not done so already. Just when you might need it, it is not there.

chickenhead
01-09-2008, 06:10 PM
It was going the way of Canada, but now waiting lists are greatly shortened.

(this is an honest good faith question)

As someone who has never been to a hospital abroad, can you explain what this means?

JustRalph
01-09-2008, 06:33 PM
hcap,

Like the dodo, the few brain dead conservatives left are gradually dieing out and no amount of medical care will save them.

Really? Well, as we go down to our graves......and with our dead brains, we might be able to spell "dying" right............... :lol:

witchdoctor
01-09-2008, 06:39 PM
Paying for medical care is a problem that is going to be difficult to solve. A lot of money is involved and everyone wants there piece of the pie. Many test get ordered to protect against getting sued. That said, doctor make money from those test. A large portion of the country is without insurance and those cost get shifted to those with insurance. Insurance executives make outrageous salaries.
http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=329091&searchString=insurance%20execs

http://www.memag.com/memag/Medical+Practice+Management%3A+Managed+Care/Insurance-execs-Stop-lining-your-pockets/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/479374?contextCategoryId=40145&searchString=insurance%20execs


I wish universal healthcare would solve these problems. Unfortunately, haveing had the opportunity to do part of my training at a V.A. hospital, I can not believe that the government could streamline things and improve heathcare.

What is the answer? My thoughts are

1.Two tiered approach with universal care for everyone probably funded thru tax cuts and using the private sector.

2. Malpractice/tort reform

3.Rationing. As someone pointed out, a large percentage of healthcare cost occur at the end of life. Case in point, I just got thru talking with a daughter of a 89 year old woman who presented with a heart attack and cardiogenic shock. We were able to abort the heart attack and stabilize her but she subsequently developed renal failure. I suspect her hospital bill is over $300,000. Another thought is how many children can we immunize for the cost of heart transplant.

Tough choices will have to be made. I don't feel conservatives nor liberals in Congress have the nuts to make those kind of choices. I guess you could call that bipartisianism.

hcap
01-09-2008, 07:00 PM
Really? Well, as we go down to our graves......and with our dead brains, we might be able to spell "dying" right............... :lol: Ralph, we all agree that posters should make an attempt to write and spell clearly. Robert99, had only one spelling error. His post overall was well written and concise. If you want to dismiss the substance of his post because of one stinkin' spelling error, what are you gonna do with many of Toms'? Or our winner of the unintelligible, and the incoherent-- skate? :lol:

robert did say this.....
I think that your per capita figures of $2317 (UK) and $5711 (USA) show the difference up quite clearly. USA costs are now out of control and as people live longer and expect more and more advanced treatment the insurance method will surely crack, if it is has not done so already. Just when you might need it, it is not there.
How brain dead do you have to be to not recognize that the other industrialized nations are reasonable models?

DeanT
01-09-2008, 07:12 PM
(this is an honest good faith question)

As someone who has never been to a hospital abroad, can you explain what this means?

Chick how about this for an example?

A treatment is needed for a friend of mine. He calls 4 locales in Canada with doctors who can do what he needs. The shortest time to wait is 14 months.

Later that day he gets on the phone, calls the States. He gets an appointment to do the job Thursday - three days later. Best $2000 he ever spent I would imagine. It is asinine in a place where we pay 50% of every buck we make in taxes to let someone sit in discomfort for over a year in line like a cow.

The UK system and its public and private mix, with heavy tort reform and sensible regulation is much much better than Canada.

I enjoyed your post Witchdoctor. Very nice!

Lefty
01-09-2008, 07:15 PM
Robt says we live longer. Gee, how is that possible? Oh, I know, it's due to the fact of the medical facilities and drug companies that you libs, i.e. socialists, seem to detest so much.

Lefty
01-09-2008, 07:17 PM
hcap, why don't you point that out to zilly when he deigns to lecture someone he dislikes?

delayjf
01-09-2008, 07:38 PM
Don't know if this is true or not,

One critisim I've heard about American health care has to do with American expectations of what are healthcare should provide. If there is a new treatment that will keep one alive for a few months - Americans expect to receive that treatment regardless of cost.

My wife works in an Encology office and tells me that some of the treatments cost 5,000 dollar PER INJECTION. I would be curious to know what the cost to the drug company is to produce that injection. Is that ejection or simular treatments available in other countries?

I recently had a friend of mine tell me that doctors in Cuba were better than US doctors and their medical school was free. So I looked it up.
- Medical school in Cuba is a six year school - four in the US. But, you do not require to have an undergrad degree to get in. So you could get in right out of high school.
- They're are no specialization - so you come out basically as a GP. I have no idea if Cuba or other countries require a residency.

Grits
01-09-2008, 07:39 PM
Witchdoctor, thank you for posting the links. Fine reading.

On the 2nd page of the thread, I stated that insurance companies, along with drug companies, are making more income than anyone. Far more. ........Yet, we stay zeroed in on the price of gas.

I noted earlier, the advances in medical technology which make us able to extend the lives of the elderly population, though at tremendous costs. Your 89 year old heart patient could live months, possibly additional years on dialysis?

How does one ration healthcare? That would, in all liklihood, prove to be the most slippery slope of all. How does one judge worth?

"You've used up all your chips; should I call in your family now?"

(I got a feeling the rationing would be a hard sell.) Something though will change, maybe sooner than later. Again, thanks for adding your thoughts.



Paying for medical care is a problem that is going to be difficult to solve. A lot of money is involved and everyone wants there piece of the pie. Many test get ordered to protect against getting sued. That said, doctor make money from those test. A large portion of the country is without insurance and those cost get shifted to those with insurance. Insurance executives make outrageous salaries.
http://www.memag.com/memag/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=329091&searchString=insurance%20execs

http://www.memag.com/memag/Medical+Practice+Management%3A+Managed+Care/Insurance-execs-Stop-lining-your-pockets/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/479374?contextCategoryId=40145&searchString=insurance%20execs


I wish universal healthcare would solve these problems. Unfortunately, haveing had the opportunity to do part of my training at a V.A. hospital, I can not believe that the government could streamline things and improve heathcare.

What is the answer? My thoughts are

1.Two tiered approach with universal care for everyone probably funded thru tax cuts and using the private sector.

2. Malpractice/tort reform

3.Rationing. As someone pointed out, a large percentage of healthcare cost occur at the end of life. Case in point, I just got thru talking with a daughter of a 89 year old woman who presented with a heart attack and cardiogenic shock. We were able to abort the heart attack and stabilize her but she subsequently developed renal failure. I suspect her hospital bill is over $300,000. Another thought is how many children can we immunize for the cost of heart transplant.

Tough choices will have to be made. I don't feel conservatives nor liberals in Congress have the nuts to make those kind of choices. I guess you could call that bipartisianism.

46zilzal
01-09-2008, 08:09 PM
- Medical school in Cuba is a six year school - four in the US. But, you do not require to have an undergrad degree to get in. So you could get in right out of high school.
- They're are no specialization - so you come out basically as a GP. I have no idea if Cuba or other countries require a residency.
MOST of the schools worldwide are six years right out of high school programs. They save all the wasteful time you have to take classes like Musical Cultures of the World to fulfill breadth requirements in your bachelor's degree.

Tom
01-09-2008, 10:07 PM
You mean those diploma mills where those who can't cut it in real schools go to buy a degree? Acme Doctor School.
Explains a lot.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 12:14 AM
You mean those diploma mills where those who can't cut it in real schools go to buy a degree? Acme Doctor School.
Explains a lot.
Before ANYONE from ANY of the World Health Organization medical schools throughout the world can practice or even take a residency in the U.S. they have to pass the very difficult Federal Licensure Exam or FLEX. That separates any of the mills from the real ones.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 01:38 AM
Think you could pass it? I know without a six month refresher I would fail it bigtime.

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/GME_info/gme_sect1Policy.asp

melman
01-10-2008, 08:59 AM
I don't think John Edwards is not being very helpful just chasing votes.


preserve resources to pay for subscribers' medical needs. That is, they need to direct a limited pool of cash to treatments most likely to work. If they pay for lots of unproven, experimental, expensive procedures (liver transplants cost more than $150,000), they have less left to pay for proven therapies for other patients.

Here, Cigna was only acting as the administrator of Sarkisyan's father's employer's health plan; it would not directly benefit from denying a transplant. It was preserving the plan's funds for the next leukemia patient.

Edwards' grandstanding was irresponsible. Livers are scarce, life-saving resources. Far too few are available; thousands of potential recipients die awaiting a transplant. A transplant for Nataline would have doomed another potential liver recipient to death for want of an organ - or subjected a live donor to risky surgery for little likely gain.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01102008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/edwards_evil_insurance_scam_797339.htm?page=2

rastajenk
01-10-2008, 09:40 AM
Edwards? Grandstanding? What is the world coming to? :faint:

delayjf
01-10-2008, 11:26 AM
Think you could pass it? I know without a six month refresher I would fail it bigtime.
Be that as it may, It was very reassuring to know the Dr who performed my hernia operation got his undergrad at Duke and them went to Duke medical school. By the way, what is / was your specialty?

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 11:31 AM
Be that as it may, It was very reassuring to know the Dr who performed my hernia operation got his undergrad at Duke and them went to Duke medical school. By the way, what is / was your specialty?
Orthopedics...

Medical education is medical education. Pass the Flex test and do a residency in a NA hospital in comes out much the same OTHER than their having difficulty with local customs and language. I found this particularly true during their taking histories as the subtle differences in understanding English escaped some of them.

Grits
01-10-2008, 11:32 AM
Orthopedics...

One of the finest surgeons I've ever known was a Duke orthopod, who now is in private practice.

Lefty
01-10-2008, 11:33 AM
I know several veterans that get treatment from the VA. THe govt runs the VA. After hearing these guys' stories, I don't want the Govt handling MY healthcare. The govt screwed up SS, Medicare, the VA and now you want them to be 100% in charge of our healthcare. Scary...

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 11:34 AM
One of the finest surgeons I've ever known was a Duke orthopod, who now is in private practice.
Duke (thanks to Tobacco) is one of the better schools in NA.

Grits
01-10-2008, 11:52 AM
Duke (thanks to Tobacco) is one of the better schools in NA.

Indeed, and my son's physician is Dean of Admissions of the Medical School.

Regarding the VA. The quality of care may vary state to state, facility to facility. My father has his longtime physician that he sees here at home--he too has physicians at the VA.

Here in Carolina, the VA Hospital is located in Durham. It is directly across the street from Duke Medical Center/the Medical School. Many of the physicians that serve the VA are Duke physicians, many of whom are serving residencies.

The outpatient care, because of this factor, has been exceptional for my dad, though there is still the factor of "red tape."

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 11:58 AM
Check out the movie Article 99 all about the troubles in the VA.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 01:23 PM
France best, U.S. worst in preventable death ranking

By Will Dunham / Reuters

WASHINGTON - France, Japan and Australia rated best and the United States worst in new rankings focusing on preventable deaths due to treatable conditions in 19 leading industrialized nations, researchers said on Tuesday.

If the U.S. health care system performed as well as those of those top three countries, there would be 101,000 fewer deaths in the United States per year, according to researchers writing in the journal Health Affairs.

rastajenk
01-10-2008, 01:34 PM
Except when it gets hot. Then the French just go to the beach and let old people suffer and die. If that's not a preventable death, nothing is.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Except when it gets hot. Then the French just go to the beach and let old people suffer and die. If that's not a preventable death, nothing is.
I don't see a reputable source for that statement only a nebulous opinion without statistical backing. This study was reported in this journal.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/current.shtml

delayjf
01-10-2008, 01:48 PM
Medical education is medical education
To me it comes down to the qualification of the individual that gets into Medical School. Anyone getting into a top school like Duke is going to have to do real well academically in undergrad. Knowing that, I'm inclinded to have more faith in doctors educated in the US.

46,
were you a surgeon?

France best, U.S. worst in preventable death ranking
Is this a failure of the Medical system? Or were there other reasons that led to the deaths - i.e. is murder consided a preventable death?

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 01:52 PM
You are not aware of the "old boys" network in medicine. Daddy, uncle, brother are in THEN it is just like the electrical workers union.

There were, and are, many an incompetent who went to the top schools who had an "in" to both get in and stay there.

I took a surgical residency but didn't do much but minor surgery when I was finished. Worked more with limb salvaging in diabetics and the geriatrics.

Grits
01-10-2008, 01:56 PM
Do you EVER say anything positive about the damn country that you no longer reside in, or the profession of your choice that put food on your damn table for so many years?

You are not aware of the "old boys" network in medicine. Daddy, uncle, brother are in THEN it is just like the electrical workers union.

There were, and are, many an incompetent who went to the top schools who had an "in" to both get in and stay there.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 02:06 PM
Do you EVER say anything positive about the damn country that you no longer reside in, or the profession of your choice that put food on your damn table for so many years?
If you don't want to hear the truth from someone who lived it, be my guest. MANY of the students in each class are hand-picked sons and daughters who would NOT get in otherwise. When I was going through school they also sold a bill of goods to several "recognized" minorities, (who by the way never graduated and were just used to get capitation grants from the Dept. of Education).

These poor students fell behind right away (many did not have the pre-requisites or went to undergraduate programs that were equivalent to the rest of us and struggled). I thought it was outrageous then and my opinion has not changed on either point.

I used to write 60 Minutes repeatedly to show these things but I never heard back from them on THAT idea.

As strange as it sounds, I never went into medicine for the money. I used to volunteer my time and gave lots of things away free or at cost.

Greyfox
01-10-2008, 02:09 PM
Do you EVER say anything positive about the damn country that you no longer reside in, or the profession of your choice that put food on your damn table for so many years?

46Zil's comments re: "Old Boy Network" - relatives- is neither negative or positive. It is just a statement of fact.

Grits
01-10-2008, 02:22 PM
Grey, I believe the "good old boy" network, and alumni money is alive and well in every university, and most likely, all professional fields of endeavor in our country--ie, top law schools, top business schools, etc, etc. Horseracing and breeding, too, falls easily into this group.

One's money can buy a great deal in our U.S. of A. Its kinda like a woman's looks, it does have some limitations, in that--
it can get her in a door; but it can't keep her there."

46Zil's comments re: "Old Boy Network" - relatives- is neither negative or positive. It is just a statement of fact.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 02:25 PM
Dr. M.H., a solid enough student was the son of the president of the National Board of Examiners. Daddy used to come around and throw money to the students and, over all, was a nice guy......HOWEVER, what was out of bounds for the rest of us, was okay for the son of someone so connected.

I recall his bringing in several wino's from skid row just so he could "practice' a few surgical techniques. I was amazed their livers were strong enough to handle the general anesthetic, but the powers that be let him go.

Last thing I heard (practices in Arizona) he had about 6 malpractice suits pending and was about to get his license revoked for "pushing surgery." Strange, I could have told you that in 1975.

delayjf
01-10-2008, 02:31 PM
You are not aware of the "old boys" network in medicine. Daddy, uncle, brother are in THEN it is just like the electrical workers union.
Actually I an idea, a friend of mine could not get into Medical school with a 3.7 gpa in biology because he was a white man who came from a big city and that quota had been filled. He went back to school and got his masters in Electrical Engineering. My brother in law got into medical school - his Dad and his two sisters were also doctors. His grades were good (3.5 gpa), but not outstanding. He's currently an ER doctor.

I know legacys get into these schools, but really, how many are we talking here? Are they also given their degrees without earning them? Don't they also have to pass tests to be allowed to practice.

Just curious - what is the length of a orthopedic surgery residency? My mom was a nurse and said she never could never get used to the sound of bones being set. I still get squimish watching replays of Theisman's leg snap.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 02:32 PM
Just curious - what is the length of a orthopedic surgery residency? My mom was a nurse and said she never could never get used to the sound of bones being set. I still get squimish watching replays of Theisman's leg snap.
Full residency varies from three to four years.

How about the circular saws, the tochars, the nippers, pin drivers ??......If Black and Decker needed a new area of business it would be in orthopedics.

One of the strangest things is an amputation which the first time I saw it was one of the quickest "legs off" I ever witnessed as it took about 3 minutes to saw through it and the entire thing was handed to me to get to pathology.

One fellow used to sterilize a pair of Craftsman pliers for his tray. I asked him why: "The surgical ones aren't strong enough to grip and hold onto a pin while it is being removed from growing bone." I was amazed.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 02:47 PM
We had an outrider come in with a compound fracture of the femur and it was ugly: full of dirt.

Two things about long bone fractures that complicate them: 1) the associated musculature goes into spasm and it hurts like hell and 2) fatty embolism from the marrow contents getting into the blood stream makes some patients a bit odd for a few days. This is not to mention the amount of cleaning up a compound fracture requires as they most always get infected.

The career was an interesting challenge, but a closed chapter now.

46zilzal
01-10-2008, 02:50 PM
Actually I an idea, a friend of mine could not get into Medical school with a 3.7 gpa in biology because he was a white man who came from a big city and that quota had been filled. He went back to school and got his masters in Electrical Engineering.
Georgia, at one time, ONLY took applications from Georgians. My birth took place in La Grange, GA so I almost moved there after two frustrating years of rejections. I was all set to "jump" from a graduate program in Toxicology at Athens where I was accepted.

robert99
01-10-2008, 05:25 PM
(this is an honest good faith question)

As someone who has never been to a hospital abroad, can you explain what this means?

"It was going the way of Canada, but now waiting lists are greatly shortened."

The advantage of a "private" funded system is that you are the paying customer and have control of where and when you are treated.

With a taxpayer funded system that is free at point of use what the overall system can provide is limited by the total amount of funding that the Government decides and how it is allocated.

That means you go to your doctor who may pass you on to a specialist. You have to wait for that specialist to be available to get the next stage of treatment. Under the last UK Conservative Government health funding was acutely cut to provide tax breaks and waits could vary from 6 to 18 months (an earlier post describes the Canada situation). The current UK Government has re-funded the service and now it may be anything from same day to 8 weeks. More hospitals built, more doctors and nurses trained etc.

If you have an emergency illness or accident then an ambulance gets you straight into hospital treatment within the "golden" hour.

chickenhead
01-10-2008, 05:35 PM
With a taxpayer funded system that is free at point of use what the overall system can provide is limited by the total amount of funding that the Government decides and how it is allocated.

This is I think the part that scares the bejeesus out of most Americans. Our approval rating for the job that Congress is doing is something like 15% (and rightfully so).

hcap
01-11-2008, 06:22 AM
Old Europe?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

The Comeback Continent

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: January 11, 2008

Today I’d like to talk about a much-derided contender making a surprising comeback, a comeback that calls into question much of the conventional wisdom of American politics. No, I’m not talking about a politician. I’m talking about an economy — specifically, the European economy, which many Americans assume is tired and spent but has lately been showing surprising vitality.

.....Why should Americans care about Europe’s economy? Well, for one thing, it’s big. The G.D.P. of the European Union is roughly comparable to that of the United States; the euro is almost as important a global currency as the dollar; and the governance of the world financial system is, for practical purposes, equally shared by the European Central Bank and the Federal Reserve.

....What European countries definitely haven’t done is dismantle their strong social safety nets. Universal health care is a given. So are a variety of programs that support families in trouble, helping protect Europeans from the extreme poverty all too common in this country. All of this costs money — even though European countries spend far less on health care than we do — and European taxes are very high by U.S. standards.

Tom
01-11-2008, 07:34 AM
Interesting that you go to any lenghts to find fault with our economy, yet accept at face value one about Europe's. Very interesting.

robert99
01-11-2008, 09:45 AM
Interesting that you go to any lenghts to find fault with our economy, yet accept at face value one about Europe's. Very interesting.

Tom,

Go and have a look for yourself, if you have a passport.

Tom
01-11-2008, 09:54 AM
Europe has nothing I would ever want to see, other than the beeches at Normandy.

delayjf
01-11-2008, 11:08 AM
even though European countries spend far less on health care than we do
This trend is changing with just about every European country now looking at Privatizing on some level their healthcare systems. The Projections of the growth in healthcare costs are staggering.

robert99
01-11-2008, 11:17 AM
Europe has nothing I would ever want to see, other than the beeches at Normandy.

Well they do say travel broadens the mind, so I agree half could be wasted here.
There are several tours that will take you to the presumed D-Day beaches.
You might be surprised that there were more US troops killed in training off of Slapton Sands, Devon, UK than on the Omaha and Utah beeches. Of course there were the Canadians and British involved on other Normandy beeches - so do make absolutely sure you excuse yourself from seeing them.

http://worldwar2database.com/html/normandy.htm

DanG
01-11-2008, 11:56 AM
Europe has nothing I would ever want to see, other than the beeches at Normandy.

I guess that’s why there’s more than one ice cream flavor…I can’t wait to go back Tom.

We went to one restaurant / pub that was nearly bombed into oblivion by the Germans. The owner took us into the cellar and he said each step down represented 50 years of history and they were signed by previous family members.

I love reading about history and seeing images, but to actually experience it is unexplainable...to me at least.

46zilzal
01-11-2008, 12:07 PM
Europe has nothing I would ever want to see, other than the beeches at Normandy.
WHY am I not surprised..

My wife and I are planning an excursion to England, France and Poland in March......The list of sights is growing i.e. Aintree for the Grand National is one.

46zilzal
01-11-2008, 12:23 PM
One can read about something until the proverbial cows come home but it NEVER approaches seeing something like this: the greatest horse I EVER SAW, up close and personal. NOTHING compares to that.

Grits
01-11-2008, 12:26 PM
One only has to look at the blaze and the yellow parka to know who it is.

Tom
01-11-2008, 12:42 PM
Too much relevant stuff to see right here at home. My ancestors left Euprop because it was a crappy place that was run by nuts and wackos and stepped all over people. I see no reason to find some sort of facsination in their history. The only good thing to ever come out of Europe was....Americans!;)

There are a lot of things here I want to see, to soak up the history of a free people, my people. My history started on the shores of the Atlantic, where my family stepped off the boat and started the new world. No reason to look backwards.

DanG
01-11-2008, 12:46 PM
Too much relevant stuff to see right here at home. My ancestors left Euprop because it was a crappy place that was run by nuts and wackos and stepped all over people. I see no reason to find some sort of facsination in their history. The only good thing to ever come out of Europe was....Americans!;)

There are a lot of things here I want to see, to soak up the history of a free people, my people. My history started on the shores of the Atlantic, where my family stepped off the boat and started the new world. No reason to look backwards.
To each his own… :ThmbUp:

DeanT
01-11-2008, 01:30 PM
I love that kinda stuff Dan. It shows how young we are here in North America. The oldest place I have been in, in Canada, is my dorm at University of Toronto. I think it was built in 1850. My buddy got back from Scotland and told me he had a drink in a pub that was dated "est 950". Amazing stuff.

Hcap, I know you will read opinion, most of it politically driven about Europe versus North America. But please, look at facts, not political spin. Europe's (not as much the more free enterprise UK) has extremely high unemployment rates, higher welfare rates, lower per capita GDP and the economies, slaughtered by socialist thinking are not at all flexible to economic shocks. That is why when we in North America go into recession, our automatic stabilizers based on the market kick in and they are generally soft landings, while European recessions are hard falls.

Criticize US foreign policies and all the rest if you wish, but never criticize its core economic foundations. It is the best in the world, and it is why when you see a Dem win the white house the economic policies are very close to when a republican wins it. Both sides know one thing: dont mess with success.

DeanT
01-11-2008, 01:38 PM
Europe has nothing I would ever want to see, other than the beeches at Normandy.

That is the first place I will go Tom. And I would like to see Dieppe, where my ancestors and friends got slaughtered trying to attack the mainland Europe before Normandy. It was a "test run" gone awry as a primarily sole Canadian mission. I think a full 70% of men were killed or wounded.

We should all pay our respects to those people who ended up saving countless lives. So yes, that is the very first place I will see.

ddog
01-11-2008, 01:45 PM
I love that kinda stuff Dan. It shows how young we are here in North America. The oldest place I have been in, in Canada, is my dorm at University of Toronto. I think it was built in 1850. My buddy got back from Scotland and told me he had a drink in a pub that was dated "est 950". Amazing stuff.

Hcap, I know you will read opinion, most of it politically driven about Europe versus North America. But please, look at facts, not political spin. Europe's (not as much the more free enterprise UK) has extremely high unemployment rates, higher welfare rates, lower per capita GDP and the economies, slaughtered by socialist thinking are not at all flexible to economic shocks. That is why when we in North America go into recession, our automatic stabilizers based on the market kick in and they are generally soft landings, while European recessions are hard falls.

Criticize US foreign policies and all the rest if you wish, but never criticize its core economic foundations. It is the best in the world, and it is why when you see a Dem win the white house the economic policies are very close to when a republican wins it. Both sides know one thing: dont mess with success.


Obviously the "world" changes. just ask those who have been "around" a lot longer.
Maybe you can mess with "success" by not messing with anything as the world changes and maybe you can't?

When was the "core" set and what is at the "core" of that "core"?

That said, it is clear(so far) that you have a better chance here than almost any other country in the world.
That can't mean the core may not need some modifications and/or scrutiny from time to time.
We don't have a pure anything at the "core".

DeanT
01-11-2008, 01:57 PM
Hi ddog,

What I mean are fundamentals. There are certain principals that have been tried and true, that work. It;s why dems and R's vote for many of the same things (things we rarely hear about). We know it works.

Alan Greenspan for example worked under several US presidents of all different political stripes. He would work with anyone, and if there is one area that no one touches, or only tweaks very little is the Tresury Dept and the Fed, when they are elected.

If Obama is the next President, for example - heck if Kucinch is the next President, you might see change in foreign or justice policy, but economic policy will stay (at its "core") virtually unchanged

ddog
01-11-2008, 02:07 PM
Hi ddog,

What I mean are fundamentals. There are certain principals that have been tried and true, that work. It;s why dems and R's vote for many of the same things (things we rarely hear about). We know it works.

Alan Greenspan for example worked under several US presidents of all different political stripes. He would work with anyone, and if there is one area that no one touches, or only tweaks very little is the Tresury Dept and the Fed, when they are elected.

If Obama is the next President, for example - heck if Kucinch is the next President, you might see change in foreign or justice policy, but economic policy will stay (at its "core") virtually unchanged

yes, but on the other hand, maybe someone should have been tweaking Greeny a little, running with those micro-rates of his to pump the equities was not a good thing and I don't think should be part of the "core" of our policy.
But, I have always been against the home mtg deductions as well, so I maybe too far out of the "core" to matter anyway.

:)

Tom
01-11-2008, 02:34 PM
I think the dems and repubs in DC are closer to each other than any of them are to US. Horizontal government.

WeirdWilly
01-12-2008, 01:35 PM
The Michigander's Health Care Plan is...

1. Go to the E.R. They HAVE to treat you regardless of whether you have insurance.

2. Change your phone number when the collectors start calling you.

3. Anything that looks like a bill...toss it without even opening!

Once they realize the cost of suing you is a hundred times what they could ever hope to collect, they leave you alone!

Tom
01-13-2008, 12:22 PM
http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/brainsurgery.html