Anyone had experience trying to sell software\figs

[podonne]

I wonder if anyone has tried in the past to sell software\data files\figures and what thier experience was? Did you sell it yourself or contact one of the data providers and try to sell it through them. Did you try the web or email, or fax? I have something I'm close to finishing and I'm curious about experiences going from development to earning money from it.

[Dave Schwartz]

I have been selling software since 1990. If you'd care to email me we can set up an appointment to discuss it.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[cj]

I wonder if anyone has tried in the past to sell software\data files\figures and what thier experience was? Did you sell it yourself or contact one of the data providers and try to sell it through them. Did you try the web or email, or fax? I have something I'm close to finishing and I'm curious about experiences going from development to earning money from it.

I've done it, though I'm not taking any new customers.

www.pacefigures.com

[podonne]

cj and Dave, did you find it hard when you first started selling to the general public? How did you overcome skepticism of your product? Did you sell by email or diskette before turning to the web?

Also, cj, how did you decide when to stop taking new customers?

Philip

[cj]

I posted my figures on this site often. I did a lot leading up to the Kentucky Derby and Triple Crown races and the Breeders Cup. I never set out to do what I'm doing now, it just kind of happened when people saw the product.

The funny thing is now I barely recognize the product I was posting then. I've come a long way with input for customers.

As for the number of customers, there was no secret formula. It just seemed like the right time considering I have a full time job and a family and more importantly understanding the parimutuel market.

[Dave Schwartz]

Actually, when I started in the business it was six months of hunger followed by 2 years of filet mignon.... Followed by hunger... filet mignon.

I switched to crab some years later. (Better for the cholesterol and very plentiful in the buffets.


Okay, on a serious note.

How do you overcome skepticism? You don't.

People are just naturally skeptical. Although a small amount of skepticsm is healthy, too much of it damages your chances to succeed. The skeptic-to-the-core people are not going to support you because it all depends upon whether or not they win and such people rarely win.


Your bottom line in the short run depends upon how well you write ad copy, but in the long run it is about the people who continue to use your stuff.

Do not forget the source... whatever you are selling, you are getting data somewhere. Do not think you can build a profiable business in the long-term selling something that runs on data without paying them who are the source of it.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Jeff P]

I've done it. But it wasn't something I really set out to do. I had been working on a home grown handicapping VB program and let a buddy see what I was up to one day while sitting in the clubhouse at Turf Paradise. One thing led to another and things pretty much took off by word of mouth.

Posters here are skeptical. And maybe rightly so. But I've discovered that even though they can be tough they can also be fair. About three years ago somebody started a new thread here asking if anyone had ever heard of me. If I remember right somebody compared me to Zambuto. Next thing you know people were jumping into the thread defending my work.

Like CJ, I did stop taking new customers - for about a year. During that time I continued to have a lot of success playing live each day. I was also constantly doing R&D and adding new handicapping ideas to the program as time permitted. I re-released a revised program last year and still rely on word of mouth for whatever demand there is. When Mike (PA) created an authorized advertiser program I signed up as a way of giving back and saying thanks to him for creating this site and keeping it going. And again, like CJ, the current version of my work is light years different than the original.

I will say this: There is nothing quite like developing your own handicapping program and seeing it become successful. When I tell people what I do they tell me I am one of the lucky ones. They don't know the half of it. I feel truly blessed for the success and experiences I have had.

There are a handful of pitfalls along the way. If interested, ask me to post them here or shoot me an email and I'll be happy to discuss them privately.

-jp

.

[bigmack]

Like CJ, I did stop taking new customers - for about a year.
What is the rate of attrition/retention? While the going rate for cj's service is laughably low I would think limiting new customers takes some thought based on the potential formidablility of your product and the effect it might have on your own returns via play.

[podonne]

Dave\Jeff. I've looked at both your programs and they are very impressive. They are clearly the culmination of years of work.

It seems like in only these three examples I see three major ways of spreading the adoption of a product; advertising, word of mouth, and giving it away to generate interest.

What is interesting is the range of prices (although I can't see CJ's obviously), but it seems based on the previous post they are lower than the other too, but they are just numbers rather than a piece of software. So a number can be given away for a while.

Jeff, I'd love to hear about your experiences. I think very few people have successfully commercialized a product like this, you're lessons learned would be very valuable.

[jonnielu]

It seems like in only these three examples I see three major ways of spreading the adoption of a product; advertising, word of mouth, and giving it away to generate interest.


Advertising - If you can do it with indifference ( the most powerful sales tool known ), it is well worth it. Remember it has many forms.

Word of Mouth - The strongest and most effective - anything that can generate it, is a good idea.

Giving it away - The fastest way to convince people that it is worth the price of nothing. The only things that can be marketed by sampling are those that people will want or need.

People are funny critters, there are two things that they want, first is what they can't have, second is anything that actually works and is worthwhile.

The trick is to come up with something that is worthwhile and valuable, and then present it in a way that tells people that either they can't have it, or that they aren't good enough for it, or can't afford it.
jdl

[JustRalph]

I have a question, has everybody who has responded in this thread, Sold something? As in the question and subject of the thread?

One more thing............... Jeff..........stop talking!!! :lol:

[jonnielu]

I have a question, has everybody who has responded in this thread, Sold something? As in the question and subject of the thread?

One more thing............... Jeff..........stop talking!!! :lol:

I have.

jdl

[Overlay]

I don't think getting started is as difficult as it might have been before the internet. These days, I'd think a website would be the option of first choice, along with appropriate efforts to optimize it in search engines. Reviews, endorsements, or marketing arrangements involving established sellers or dealers, as well as "buzz" from satisfied customers, can also help.

[Capper Al]

Has anybody been reviewed by the Philips Racing Newsletter? If so, or not so, would you speak to this? I'm thinking of producing a product/service also. Thanks.

[cj]

Has anybody been reviewed by the Philips Racing Newsletter? If so, or not so, would you speak to this? I'm thinking of producing a product/service also. Thanks.

I could be wrong, but I think their reputation took a major hit a few years ago, so I doubt many would bother.

[jonnielu]

Has anybody been reviewed by the Philips Racing Newsletter? If so, or not so, would you speak to this? I'm thinking of producing a product/service also. Thanks.

I've been reviewed by Phillips, in 1982, at the time, the subscriber base seemed more tuned to systems, and back then, nobody got a 10 rating. 9 was the highest attainable rating.

What product do you have in mind? I'll tell you this, what people don't want to hear, is a hard sell.

jdl

[mrharness]

I could be wrong, but I think their reputation took a major hit a few years ago, so I doubt many would bother.
I like Phillips and I like Barry Meadow. I did not read the entire article written by Barry about Phillips - but Phillips (back when I subscribed) did have outside people doing the testing of systems. So, my opinion is that the testing was legitimate.

Has anybody been reviewed by the Philips Racing Newsletter? If so, or not so, would you speak to this? I'm thinking of producing a product/service also. Thanks.

I was favorably reviewed for my harness software in Phillips, twice. While I tried advertising outside of Phillips, the sales were not great. I also sold a few copies that I placed in a local store. The "MR" in my username stands for Multiple Regression. MRHARNESS was the name of my first harness software and was based on multiple regression. TROT was the 2nd. Not being able to keep up with programming for Windows, I gave it up.

[kitts]

First off, I have sold something and know something about this. Some of you know that I was with Cynthia Publishing. I often see complaints here about the high cost of software and/or the cost of data-we apparently have members who believe in Santa Claus. I often see complaints about outrageous claims. I am reminded of Barry Meadow's piece on his interview with system sellers who really have defined outrageous claims-like make $5k per month on a $20 bet. Barry went on to report that some of the system sellers tried honest and researched claims and their sales dropped dramatically. When they resume the outrageous claims, sales picked up so that type of person wants to see the outrageous claims. So do I, even though I really cannot accept some of them. Research and development costs a bunch of money and direct mail is the most expensive type of advertising. Working with one of the largest providers of handicapping product for three years, I learned that these products can be sold with success if the vendor follows one rule-make sure the stuff works and provide excellent customer service for those that are struggling with the product.

[Gibbon]

...provide excellent customer service... Something the current management of Cynthia has completely neglected.
Absolutely abysmal cust. service.







________________________
"If you want good service, serve yourself.”

[podonne]

So now I wonder specifically about selling figs. Seems like the best way to do it is to give it away for free for a time. Anyone have strong feelings on this? Give away a small number as "fig of the week"? Give out figs for major stakes races? Give out figs for a period of time, a month, a week...

[Capper Al]

So now I wonder specifically about selling figs. Seems like the best way to do it is to give it away for free for a time. Anyone have strong feelings on this? Give away a small number as "fig of the week"? Give out figs for major stakes races? Give out figs for a period of time, a month, a week...

That is what I would do.

[jonnielu]

So now I wonder specifically about selling figs. Seems like the best way to do it is to give it away for free for a time. Anyone have strong feelings on this? Give away a small number as "fig of the week"? Give out figs for major stakes races? Give out figs for a period of time, a month, a week...

That would depend on your figs, are you looking to market subscriptions, or your figure making process? Do the figures stand alone, or are they an adjunct to PP consideration? Is the figure an answer, or just the major portion of the equation?

In your figures, are you offering the handicapper what he wants, or what he needs? Knowing that he/she wants ice cream, and what he/she needs is castor oil.

Have you made a list of everything that you think you know about this market, and made note of which entries on that list are assumptions?

jdl

[ryesteve]

I am reminded of Barry Meadow's piece on his interview with system sellers who really have defined outrageous claims-like make $5k per month on a $20 bet. Barry went on to report that some of the system sellers tried honest and researched claims and their sales dropped dramatically. When they resume the outrageous claims, sales picked up so that type of person wants to see the outrageous claims. So do I.
The fact that there are enough gullible people out there who will be taken in by fake hype leads you to conclude that people PREFER being lied to? That's an outstanding bit of rationalization. You must've worked in the marketing department.

[jonnielu]

The fact that there are enough gullible people out there who will be taken in by fake hype leads you to conclude that people PREFER being lied to? That's an outstanding bit of rationalization. You must've worked in the marketing department.

If you are marketing, you will need to appeal to the broadest cross-section possible. The person that will not spend $1 on a lotto ticket unless the prize is over $10 million is in that cross-section too.

It will always be better to appeal to the beliefs, as opposed to changing the beliefs to suite your appeal.

jdl

[ryesteve]

If you are marketing, you will need to appeal to the broadest cross-section possible. The person that will not spend $1 on a lotto ticket unless the prize is over $10 million is in that cross-section too.

It will always be better to appeal to the beliefs, as opposed to changing the beliefs to suite your appeal.

jdl
But the difference is that the lottery actually DOES give away a $10 million prize.

And it will always be better to avoid false claims, as opposed to getting the state attorney general on your ass.

[jonnielu]

But the difference is that the lottery actually DOES give away a $10 million prize.

And it will always be better to avoid false claims, as opposed to getting the state attorney general on your ass.

Nobody is making false claims, the point is that big claims are the ones that people pay attention to, without any consideration toward likelihood.

The guy that generally won't invest $1 in the lotto, is likely of that mindset because he realizes that his chances to win are right next to nil. But, when it is more then 10 Mil., it is somehow worth the same risk to him.

[ryesteve]

Nobody is making false claims

I am reminded of Barry Meadow's piece on his interview with system sellers who really have defined outrageous claims-like make $5k per month on a $20 bet.

That is the comment that began this exchange. Someone who promises you will make $5k a month on $20 bets IS making a false claim.

[jonnielu]

That is the comment that began this exchange. Someone who promises you will make $5k a month on $20 bets IS making a false claim.

What is the complete claim?

[ryesteve]

What is the complete claim?

I wasn't aware that we were talking about anyone or any claim specifically. I suppose more detail can be found in the Meadow article Kitts was referring to.

[Tom Barrister]

The most outrageous claim I've seen was about 20 years ago from somebody in Nevada who was selling a $100 system that he claimed played every race and hit 80% winners.

I mailed him back and told him that he couldn't pick 80% winners over 100 consecutive races if he could bet at (before the first horse crossed) the eighth pole. He mailed me back and challenged me to a $10,000 bet on that condition. I told him to let me know when he wanted to come to Vegas, and we'd set it up. He never answered.

Out of curiosity, I tried it myself at the racebook one day, picking the horse I thought would win the race just before the first horse crossed the eighth pole. I managed to hit (I believe) 34 out of 50 races. It's not as easy as one would think, since there are a lot of close finishes. Of course, if spot playing the obvious ones was allowed, one could get close to 100%.

[podonne]

The comment about whether the figure was the answer or part of the equation is interesting. I understand that it is never a good idea to sell a "black box" figure or software, because any "edge" it was identifying would disappear with widespread adoption.

The problem is, demonstrating a black box fig is good is easy (ROI), demonstrating a fig that only gives insight, is harder. Even free.