Pace and artificial track

[kenwoodallpromos]

Any good leads on pace, energy distribution, and artificial track?

[46zilzal]

Any good leads on pace, energy distribution, and artificial track?
The major problem with these tracks is there is NO consistency to them. Whether it is a factor of the maintaining them properly, seasoning of the surface or what, they jump all over the place day to day. I am going to watch until there is some common thread to them......which, so far, has not revealed itself.

[Capper Al]

Any good leads on pace, energy distribution, and artificial track?

Artificial tracks are forcing us to rethink Pace. It may also prove that the original theories might be bogus.

[46zilzal]

Artificial tracks are forcing us to rethink Pace. It may also prove that the original theories might be bogus.
Bull, just changing the balances once standards are established.

[cj]

I'm working on a new article for my site that will be out in a day or so regarding this issue.

[JustMissed]

Artificial tracks are forcing us to rethink Pace. It may also prove that the original theories might be bogus.

That is an 'ununual' answer.

Aren't pace figs calculated like speed figs.

Don't you take the raw times for the splits and adjust them (+/-) for the perceived variance from pars and in relationship to the final time?

Why wouldn't the figs for Track A which has ATRx1 be adjusted so as to be comparable to that same horse running at Track B which has ATRx2 turf.

Horse racing is not rocket science you know.

The only "big deal" is that Rx turf has not been around long enough for the dull minded to get a handle on the variances.

Some young fig maker will figure out an easy way to do pace figs for different prescriptions of turf and all will be well with the world. Till then, carry on.


JM :)

[Gibbon]

...original theories might be bogus.... MIGHT?

...NO consistency...
Everything about Sartinista handicapping is fantasy, fiction and confabulated facts!
With the sole exception of ‘need to lead’ types. This one may on occasion claim an uncontested lead.

Recent racing at Aqu. is a wonderful illustration of wire to wire winners galore. Yet, gleaming the PP’s does not indicate betting blindly on E/EP horses. Nor does Bris, HDW or Moss quarter times.

A horse’s running style can just as easily be attributed to the demands and peculiarities of any one race course.

[Robert Fischer]

What I have found is that the value in any pace figures is best enhanced when aligning them with the way that the track is playing.

When you completely alter the dynamics of the race by altering the surface of the track, than you will not be as successful applying generic templates and expectations.

Calibrate.

[jonnielu]

Artificial tracks are forcing us to rethink Pace. It may also prove that the original theories might be bogus.

Al,

The general theory of pace can't be bogus, because the evidence presents itself everyday on all surfaces and distances. But, that might show the theory of variance to be bogus.

jdl

[jonnielu]

MIGHT?


Everything about Sartinista handicapping is fantasy, fiction and confabulated facts!
With the sole exception of ‘need to lead’ types. This one may on occasion claim an uncontested lead.

Recent racing at Aqu. is a wonderful illustration of wire to wire winners galore. Yet, gleaming the PP’s does not indicate betting blindly on E/EP horses. Nor does Bris, HDW or Moss quarter times.

A horse’s running style can just as easily be attributed to the demands and peculiarities of any one race course.

How dare you. And, it is Sartinology;)

[Dave Schwartz]

Everything about Sartinista handicapping is fantasy, fiction and confabulated facts!

Gib,

I must disagree with you on this.

Howard Sartin may or may not have been a lot of things, but he pioneered a pace approach (with the help of many others) that was both innovative and effective.

I am not saying that there was no hype involved - and perhaps not everyone was the real deal - but the concepts are sound. I still use them today. In fact, I am using them more today than I have in years.


And be aware that I was not a contributor to the Sartin Methodolgy - just a user. I have nothing to gain by saying this stuff.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Jeff P]

Everything about Sartinista handicapping is fantasy, fiction and confabulated facts!Gotta disagree with this too. I'm probably less of a Sartin follower than just about any member of this board. But in my research I have found that:

Decision Models... they can work.

Track Profiles... they can work too.

Not just for Sartin or Sartin-like factors. They can work for unique non Sartin numbers as well.

To me, artificial surfaces are anything but bias free. They seem every bit (if not more so) sensitive to moisture and temperature changes as regular dirt. Sometimes a short term Decision Model or Track Profile (as in just the past day or so) is all the player needs to get a solid handle on what is currently winning on an artificial surface.


-jp

.

[Gibbon]

Alright, that was intentionally over the top I must confess. Doc did it fact contribute some minor advancement to our beloved game.

Consider the following…

John Del Riccio kindly shares his pace and speed ratings regularly with our community. Take a look at JDR figs in Satin application. Pick your pace line, run your array of numbers on the representative pace line. Draw your conclusion then compare John’s figs with your Sartin conclusion. I’ll bet it will be nearly identical in most, if not all, races.

Simplicity over numbers paralysis from a recovering Sartinista.









______________________________
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci

[46zilzal]

Everything about Sartinista handicapping is fantasy, fiction and confabulated facts!
With the sole exception of ‘need to lead’ types. This one may on occasion claim an uncontested lead.

Recent racing at Aqu. is a wonderful illustration of wire to wire winners galore. Yet, gleaming the PP’s does not indicate betting blindly on E/EP horses. Nor does Bris, HDW or Moss quarter times.

A horse’s running style can just as easily be attributed to the demands and peculiarities of any one race course.

I have about 320 and another site has over 275 people who would sincerely disagree with you big time after years and years of profit using just those ideas.

[46zilzal]

[
Recent racing at Aqu. is a wonderful illustration of wire to wire winners galore. Yet, gleaming the PP’s does not indicate betting blindly on E/EP horses. Nor does Bris, HDW or Moss quarter times.




Spoken like someone without a clue how the various energy distributions can cancel out each other when they are over-represented, thereby allowing a less representative distribution to win by default.

There is NO single way of evaluating via the Sartin method. Interpretation is what makes it very adaptable.

The more people believe it is witch craft, The more I like it.

Do you gleam pp's by using one of those yellow highlighters?

[Gibbon]

...320 and another site has over 275 people who would sincerely disagree.... The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. ~ A sheet player.



















Actually ~ Bertrand Russell

[46zilzal]

Things continue to evolve in the understanding of the Sartin method. Those who just observe from a distance are left with the 1990 understanding. Too bad, things change.

"You can never step in the same river twice." Hericlitis.

[Gibbon]

A horse {equine athlete} in good form will trump a superior equine athlete moving out of form despite pace rationalizations.

Sheet handicapping is NOT about final time figures rather, where an athlete is in his form cycle. Positive, negative or neutral. In a neutral scenario, final time figs are deadly. In negative scenarios, energy distributions muddy elegant computer printouts. In a positive form scenario, your Sartin numbers work.

But than again, even a broken clock is correct twice a day although personally, I refuse to draw any firm conclusions this way.








________________________________
Simplicity is the final achievement. After one has played a vast quantity of notes and more notes, it is simplicity that emerges as the crowning reward of art. ~ Frederic Chopin

[bobphilo]

Artificial tracks are forcing us to rethink Pace. It may also prove that the original theories might be bogus.

Well put. Are we so obsessed with biases that we insist on finding them on a surface designed to do away with them?

Most so-called biases exist as self-fulfilling prophases based on the way riders perceive them and ride accordingly.

Yes, closers have the advantage in fields filled with speed and vice versa, but beyond this, just bet the best horse and you’ll do fine.



Bob

[46zilzal]

A horse {equine athlete} in good form will trump a superior equine athlete moving out of form despite pace rationalizations.


Horses form cycles present themselves all the time through Sartin pace numbers.....rising % median versus similar pace pressure is one way or many...
No one method has a patent on any handicapping factor. One just has to know where to look for it.

[46zilzal]

Most so-called biases exist as self-fulfilling prophases based on the way riders perceive them and ride accordingly.

KEEP believing that. I was a disciple of not believing bias when I only worked on West coast tracks. Discovered Winter racing and BINGO, biases triumph often. When they are there, mostly in the WINTER, they last for several cards at a time.

OR, look at a horse's record and then look at it's Keeneland lines. I could pick them out without knowing which track they were run just by the low low percent median that was characteristic of the track and not the horse.

[Gibbon]

Bias…

To add complexity into the mixer;
Once a bias is determined to exist...
whether a post position bias or rail…
middle or outside part of the track…
tomorrow the bias is almost certain to change!

Bet the horse which is coming into form. Best chance to vanquish the so called bias. If bias is the primary factor in today’s race, computer modelers would be making millions. Perhaps Jeff P. does so.








___________________________
There is no greatness where there is not simplicity... ~ Tolstoy

[46zilzal]

Bias is ON or OFF. Early or very early since early is the universal track bias according to Quirin.

[Gibbon]

Back on topic,

With three exceptions last Friday, SA betting public has NO difficulty betting synthetic dirt. Many 3/1 and lower winners.

The major problem with these tracks is there is NO consistency to them. So what’s the problem?

[bobphilo]

KEEP believing that. I was a disciple of not believing bias when I only worked on West coast tracks. Discovered Winter racing and BINGO, biases triumph often. When they are there, mostly in the WINTER, they last for several cards at a time.

OR, look at a horse's record and then look at it's Keeneland lines. I could pick them out without knowing which track they were run just by the low low percent median that was characteristic of the track and not the horse.

Ah yes. The true believer will always see what he expects to see.

Anyway 46, the original question was about all-weather tracks, not the biased way riders were riding so-called biased tracks before lack of expectations let sanity, and the laws of physics, take over.

If one factors in the fact that the best horse, and most likely winner can exhibit a variety of running styles, current results make perfect sense, no bias required.



Bob

[46zilzal]

Ah yes. The true believer will always see what he expects to see.


No the scientific believer follows the energy distribution profiles that the runners run on said track. It is about observing NOT wishful thinking.

[bobphilo]

No the scientific believer follows the energy distribution profiles that the runners run on said track. It is about observing NOT wishful thinking.

No, please don't confuse sartinology with science. The scientific believer knows that kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared. Look it up in your basic physics text. I'll pay you the compliment that you realize that means the most efficient application of energy occurs at even pace, regardless of suface. Do the math.
I've yet to read that anyone has found the laws of physics vary with surface.

Bob

[46zilzal]

I never use that definition of energy, so your definitions do not relate to this discussion. It is the study of distribution of segmental velocities.

Science is taking a premise and proving or disproving it by repeated experimentation. That can be horticulture, mechanics, playing marbles or speed walking. Take your pick.

If it were not reproducible and predictive, NO one would use it.

[bobphilo]

I never use that definition of energy, so your definitions do not relate to this discussion. It is the study of distribution of segmental velocities.

Science is taking a premise and proving or disproving it by repeated experimentation. That can be horticulture, mechanics, playing marbles or speed walking. Take your pick.

If it were not reproducible and predictive, NO one would use it.

It's not my definition of energy, it's THE definition of energy and has been proven thousands of times by objective scientists with no bias to prove and It happens to describe every instance of bodies in motion, which race horses surely are. Your inability to make it fit your advantage puts doubts as to how scientific your methodology really is. All the rest is pseudo science.

[jonnielu]

Bias…

To add complexity into the mixer;
Once a bias is determined to exist...
whether a post position bias or rail…
middle or outside part of the track…
tomorrow the bias is almost certain to change!

Bet the horse which is coming into form. Best chance to vanquish the so called bias. If bias is the primary factor in today’s race, computer modelers would be making millions. Perhaps Jeff P. does so.

___________________________
There is no greatness where there is not simplicity... ~ Tolstoy

Bias - A figment of Beyer's arrogance.

jdl

[betchatoo]

Bias - A figment of Beyer's arrogance.

jdl
While I disagree with your assessment, I may have to concede the point. Arrogance seems to be a subject on which you're an expert.

[john del riccio]

KEE & SA are as different as night and day. HOL is a different beast all together. AP & WO play very reasonable. This is all my opinion based on my ratings. Some folks have indicated that pace and or speed figures over these surfaces are useless. Although I agree that handicapping the artificial stuff requires a "slightly" different approach, not making good use of pace figures
(and speed figures) can be a detriment. Pace is always a factor, in every race, on every surface, at every distance. Tell most pace handicappers what the early part of a race will look like and you will se their eyes open up because they will know how to exploit it. Poly is no different in this regard.

John

[shanta]

I'm working on a new article for my site that will be out in a day or so regarding this issue.

Cj
I'd love to read it though I am not a subscriber to your numbers. Will it be available to the general public?

Richie

[The Judge]

Former Sartin teaching members claim that they were able to win 65% of races betting two horses a race. These teaching members had a parting of the ways with Sartin yet they still use the concepts he taught. You can't win 65% of your races unless you are capturing an animal that is in "form" .

[cj]

Cj
I'd love to read it though I am not a subscriber to your numbers. Will it be available to the general public?

Richie

Yes, going to post it on the site's home page.

[Jeff P]

Bet the horse which is coming into form. Best chance to vanquish the so called bias. If bias is the primary factor in today’s race, computer modelers would be making millions. Perhaps Jeff P. does so.
Actually, form is one of those things that I model... along with ability... along with what the connections have done to get the horse ready to run in today's race... and how all of that fits within the context of what is currently winning races at the track I happen to be playing.

Millions?

Laugh all you want. My approach (the one I just described) works quite nicely.

Millions?

The amount I win is simply a percentage of how much I bet. I started out with a tiny bankroll and actively grew it into a much larger one. IMHO, there is something fun about this game when you can look back and see that you actually did that with an approach you developed yourself.

Millions?

Not quite yet. Just need more time.


-jp

.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I like to look at CJ's article since he has his own fractiona; pacings!
SA at a glances- 6f anything but a selected exception?
"TRACK BIAS MEET(12/26 - 01/01)

Distance #
Race %
Wire Best
Style Best
Posts Distance #
Race %
Wire Best
Style Best
Posts
6.0fDirt 11 0% S Inside
6.5fDirt 8 13% E/P Outside
1 MileDirt 6 33% E/P Mid/Out
1 1/16mDirt 2 50% E Middle"

(If someone starts a new SA thread I will comment on the track maintainence!)

[Capper Al]

I'm working on a new article for my site that will be out in a day or so regarding this issue.

CJ,

Where is your site?

[Capper Al]

Bull, just changing the balances once standards are established.

They've had all the experts trying to apply the old pace logical to the new surfaces and no one has cracked the code for over a couple of years now. It doesn't look well for the Pace boys. It looks like their BS didn't stand up to the test of time.

[Capper Al]

No the scientific believer follows the energy distribution profiles that the runners run on said track. It is about observing NOT wishful thinking.

The observation is that Pace theory doesn't carry over to artificial surfaces. The wishful thinking is that it does.

[Tom]

They've had all the experts trying to apply the old pace logical to the new surfaces and no one has cracked the code for over a couple of years now. It doesn't look well for the Pace boys. It looks like their BS didn't stand up to the test of time.

And you know this how?

[46zilzal]

The observation is that Pace theory doesn't carry over to artificial surfaces. The wishful thinking is that it does.
CRAP, they are all new. It takes a season or two to decipher the keys to watch out for. The variability is due to seasoning of the course and the learning curve on maintaining it.

Woodbine is running to form everyday with only a slight variance but then it is the exception.

Pace as a tool will NEVER change as a KEY to understanding how a race will run.

[46zilzal]

Former Sartin teaching members claim that they were able to win 65% of races betting two horses a race. These teaching members had a parting of the ways with Sartin yet they still use the concepts he taught. You can't win 65% of your races unless you are capturing an animal that is in "form" .
And the pace number will indicate the trend in the form cycle most of the time.

[DanG]

Thank goodness in 2008; Pace, Sartin theory, Modeling and Artificial surfaces in general are still fostering so much fear and ignorance. :ThmbUp:

There is hope for all who choose to use these tools / circumstances with an open mind.

http://www.paktecha.com/images/Open-Mind.jpg

[cj]

The observation is that Pace theory doesn't carry over to artificial surfaces. The wishful thinking is that it does.

And what exactly is "Pace Theory"? I know my theories about pace are holding up very well on synthetic tracks.

[46zilzal]

And what exactly is "Pace Theory"? I know my theories about pace are holding up very well on synthetic tracks.
As are many others. Footing might alter, but will not change, the basic concepts.

[cj]

My main "theory" is that there is money to be made by examining the parts and the whole instead of just the whole. That is pace handicapping to me.

While somewhat different than conventional dirt, this has certainly proven to be true with the fake version.

[Tom]

The thing is, pace handicapping tells you what is winning. PH is to finding the early speed and betting it, at least not ALL the time ;).

The Sartin stuff gives you a means to measure the horse and the track, and then to match them up.

CJ has a fresh view of it that works very well. I'm chomping at the bit waiting for his article to come out.

Pray tell, AL what part of Pace Handicapping doesn't work?

[Capper Al]

The thing is, pace handicapping tells you what is winning. PH is to finding the early speed and betting it, at least not ALL the time ;).

The Sartin stuff gives you a means to measure the horse and the track, and then to match them up.

CJ has a fresh view of it that works very well. I'm chomping at the bit waiting for his article to come out.

Pray tell, AL what part of Pace Handicapping doesn't work?

Closers seem to be winning more than early speed for one. The heart of a lot of what was published was on the invincible early speed.

[njcurveball]

The heart of a lot of what was published was on the invincible early speed.


Well so much for Modern Pace Handicapping. :bang:

[Cratos]

Any good leads on pace, energy distribution, and artificial track?


Pace of a horse is a rate of movement of the horse or the gait of the horse. The horse in the lead at each point of call is setting the pace of the race. For example a horse runs the first quarter of a 6f race in 21.8 seconds. We can say the average pace for the first quarter was 12.11 feet per 1/5 second. We can only say “average” because we don’t know how fast the first part of the quarter was run and typically a race running curve of time with respect to distance is downward sloping. The pace of the next quarter of the race might be 22.60 seconds or 11.68 feet per 1/5 second. Let the final quarter of the 6f race go in 23 seconds for 11.48 feet per 1/5 second and the total time would be 1:07.4 seconds for the race or an average pace of 11.76 feet per 1/5 second.

What does this hypothetical tells us? It says first and foremost the race was run at a very fast pace and any competitor would have to be on are near the lead or it would be outrun. What about energy distribution? The amount of energy expended by the winning horse would only be conjecture because the volume of mass (the horse’s weight coupled with the weight on its back) that is moving is not known.

However if we assume the winning horse weighed 1100 pounds and toted 122 pounds it would have burned about 62.12 BTUs for the 1:07.4 minutes of work

[46zilzal]

Sartin's energy (the one that is most commonly mentioned here) is the sum total of the three fractional velocities NOT the physics version. Let's say it is a "borrowed" term.

In this example it is in the TOTAL column.

From this, distributions are calculated. Fairly repetitive and recurrent.

[Cratos]

Sartin's energy (the one that is most commonly mentioned here) is the sum total of the three fractional velocities NOT the physics version. Let's say it is a "borrowed" term.

In this example it is in the TOTAL column.

From this, distributions are calculated. Fairly repetitive and recurrent.

Sartin's calculation might be correct based on his methodology, but it not an energy calculation. Newton’s Laws of motion has yet to be disproved.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Pace of a horse is a rate of movement of the horse or the gait of the horse. The horse in the lead at each point of call is setting the pace of the race. For example a horse runs the first quarter of a 6f race in 21.8 seconds. We can say the average pace for the first quarter was 12.11 feet per 1/5 second. We can only say “average” because we don’t know how fast the first part of the quarter was run and typically a race running curve of time with respect to distance is downward sloping. The pace of the next quarter of the race might be 22.60 seconds or 11.68 feet per 1/5 second. Let the final quarter of the 6f race go in 23 seconds for 11.48 feet per 1/5 second and the total time would be 1:07.4 seconds for the race or an average pace of 11.76 feet per 1/5 second.

What does this hypothetical tells us? It says first and foremost the race was run at a very fast pace and any competitor would have to be on are near the lead or it would be outrun. What about energy distribution? The amount of energy expended by the winning horse would only be conjecture because the volume of mass (the horse’s weight coupled with the weight on its back) that is moving is not known.

However if we assume the winning horse weighed 1100 pounds and toted 122 pounds it would have burned about 62.12 BTUs for the 1:07.4 minutes of work
I know very little about physics or Newtonian theories- so maybe when I said "energy distribution" I meant as expressed in velocity rather than BTU's?

[Tom]

Most everyone got that.......

[46zilzal]

Closers seem to be winning more than early speed for one. The heart of a lot of what was published was on the invincible early speed.

If you are following the Fair Grounds, Arlington or Keeneland. MOST of the rest are still running the way dirt tracks have always run: favoring the front end.

[highnote]

"You can never step in the same river twice." Hericlitis.


The existentialist asks, '"What is a river?"

[cj]

If you are following the Fair Grounds, Arlington or Keeneland. MOST of the rest are still running the way dirt tracks have always run: favoring the front end.

The FG is still dirt.

[First_Place]

Gibbon said:

"Everything about Sartinista handicapping is fantasy, fiction and confabulated facts!"

What medication(s) are you on? For certainly your statement is based on "fantasy, fiction and confabulated facts!"

FP

[Tom]

The FG is still dirt.
Well that would explain it, then. :rolleyes::lol:

[Cratos]

I know very little about physics or Newtonian theories- so maybe when I said "energy distribution" I meant as expressed in velocity rather than BTU's?


There is a relation between energy and velocity, but this forum is not the place to discuss it because it would go far a field of horseracing and into theoretical physics using the Maxwellian distribution.

Therefore enough said by me on energy distribution.

[nobeyerspls]

My main "theory" is that there is money to be made by examining the parts and the whole instead of just the whole. That is pace handicapping to me.

While somewhat different than conventional dirt, this has certainly proven to be true with the fake version.

Under your definition I'm a pace handicapper and didn't know it. Before the timing of races was accurate, before figures, and back when they started a race by dropping a rope, if a six horse field had five speed types and one closer then the closer won. If it was one speedball and five closers then the speed held up. I don't think that that has changed.

[46zilzal]

if a six horse field had five speed types and one closer then the closer won. If it was one speedball and five closers then the speed held up. I don't think that that has changed.

At MANY a race track the speed of the speed wins while the closer continues the close well into the clubhouse turn while the rest of the field is on the backstretch.

[46zilzal]

There is a relation between energy and velocity, but this forum is not the place to discuss it because it would go far a field of horseracing and into theoretical physics using the Maxwellian distribution.

Therefore enough said by me on energy distribution.

What part of it is not being the same thing (energy label) doesn't get through to you?

[46zilzal]

The FG is still dirt.
And is one of the few that tends to run later due, in part, to the long stretch. Never said it was Poly.

[Cratos]

What part of it is not being the same thing (energy label) doesn't get through to you?

As I said in my previous post, enough has been said about energy distribution with respect to horseracing. If you want to continue this innocuous and spurious conversation be my guest, but leave me out of it.

[46zilzal]

As I said in my previous post, enough has been said about energy distribution with respect to horse racing. If you want to continue this innocuous and spurious conversation be my guest, but leave me out of it.
I think a tremendous amount will continue to be said about a systematic approach to understanding pace that has worked now for over 22 years since it was first introduced by Pirco as the program Energy.

[Cratos]

I think a tremendous amount will continue to be said about a systematic approach to understanding pace that has worked now for over 22 years since it was first introduced by Pirco as the program Energy.

Therefore in closing, energy is the horse’s capacity to do work or its available power. Velocity is the time rate of change of position of a horse in a specified direction. These concepts have been around much longer than 22 years and there are voluminous amounts of data to substantiate the existence of these concepts. Try Phil Bull’s archives.

[2low]

I am completely offended that not everybody bets the same horses I do.

Plus, some people don't even use my handicapping methods:bang:

I also hate people who play bad cards at the poker table.

[cj]

Therefore in closing, energy is the horse’s capacity to do work or its available power. Velocity is the time rate of change of position of a horse in a specified direction. These concepts have been around much longer than 22 years and there are voluminous amounts of data to substantiate the existence of these concepts. Try Phil Bull’s archives.

You've said you were done with this twice and commented twice more. Can we get one more, please?

[46zilzal]

Therefore in closing, energy is the horse’s capacity to do work or its available power. Velocity is the time rate of change of position of a horse in a specified direction. These concepts have been around much longer than 22 years and there are voluminous amounts of data to substantiate the existence of these concepts. Try Phil Bull’s archives.
You still are missing the point that the definitions are different. Apples/Oranges even though they use the same names.

I get the distinct impression that at some of these courses, the riders are reading too much into the running. That should calm down as soon as a few figure out that positional advantages still work. Along with the crew that has to keep the racing surface up each day, BOTH have to go trough a learning curve before there is the reproducible surface.

[Capper Al]

Pace for me is just one factor out of many. Matter of fact, I play it a little different than most and try to fit the pace into the ability to run the distance. What no energy, no early speed? Figure that out!

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Velocity is the time rate of change of position of a horse in a specified direction."
Thank you for your post; that is what I originally called "energy".
And I could also be wrong but what I call the reason behind the rate of change is "stamina" or efficient use of ___ whatever.

[46zilzal]

"Velocity is the time rate of change of position of a horse in a specified direction."
Thank you for your post; that is what I originally called "energy".
And I could also be wrong but what I call the reason behind the rate of change is "stamina" or efficient use of ___ whatever.

Stamina in the majority of horses is pace pressure dependent. There are few Forego's any longer who really laughed at all the pace pressure.

True stamina takes place more often at distances above 9 furlongs and with the blade runners (turfers), so, on the dirt, we seldom really see it.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I new I was right- they should use horseracing in school to teach science and math!!

[46zilzal]

I was just pondering all of this paralysis by analysis malarkey and remembering how important the conservation of energy is to locomotion. I used to advise patients on corrective bracing to make up for biomechanical imbalances or anatomical deficiencies and it is not too dissimilar to conformational differences in horse locomotion. Horses like Affirmed and Secretariat, having conformations as close to perfection as ever have been studied, require, of course, less energy output for the same amount of ground covered, but where do you stop splitting hairs?.....The arguments for the "correct" physics is just silly as it is impossible to be measured with true objectivity, so the best approximation, and one that works, must take it's place.

[Cratos]

You've said you were done with this twice and commented twice more. Can we get one more, please?

Yes I did say that, but I find it interesting that you don't want clarity. This forum is open world wide and there are many more posters that I would presume who would believe in freedom of speech over ambiguity.

[46zilzal]

Clarity?

[cj]

Just a joke, lighten up Francis.

[Tee]

Maybe everyone calls him Psycho? :D


Just a joke, lighten up Francis.

On topic, I haven't changed a thing in my handicapping approach for the artificial tracks. Well maybe one thing & that would be turf to fake movers.

So far so good.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Maybe everyone calls him Psycho? :D




On topic, I haven't changed a thing in my handicapping approach for the artificial tracks. Well maybe one thing & that would be turf to fake movers.

So far so good.
Is that the same thing as "false closers", ones that win from 4th position or farther out but less than 6 lengths back?LOL!!

[cj's dad]

True stamina takes place more often at distances above 9 furlongs and with the blade runners (turfers),

Thanks- gee, I've been doing this for some time and never knew what a "blade runner" was- so grateful for the insight:D