Are Races Fixed?

[Teach]

I ask you: "Are races fixed?" I'd think we'd have to be naive to think that there weren't some races that are fixed. Personally, I've seen too many strange things happen on the racetrack to think they were just caused by chance.

For the record. I'm not some wet-behind-the-ears kid. At 65, I've seen and wagered on countless thousands of races.

Let me share just two of several stories. Many years ago, I had a friend whose dad owned horses. He also was a heavy gambler. I have no knowledge that he himself ever tried to fix any races in which his horses were entered; but I was told by his son (my friend) that he did try to rig a race at one of the fairs here in MA.

Years ago, fair racing was prominent in MA. There were the Marshfield, Northampton, Great Barrington and Brockton Fairs. Cheap horses, over-the-hill jockeys and rather lax security were a prescription for all kinds of "fun and games." Jockeys would fall off horses. Horses would break down. Others would blow the tight turns.

Well, in this particular case (I was not present), my friend tells me that his father greased some jockeys to try to fix one of the races. As my friend tells it, you could have fit a Mack truck through the hole that was opened up for the intended winning horse. Only in this case--- the horse didn't win! Why? I was never told. All I know was the my friend's dad's horse was given every opportunity to win.

In another story, a friend of mine was in tight with some of the trainers. I remember asking my buddy if he liked a horse I was going to play (the horse was conditoned by one of his trainer-friends). He counselled: "Don't use him!" I asked why. I was told that the horse in question was probably going to be "stopped" in the barn (I remember the word "stopped" being used).
I recall my friend saying that the trainer had not intended his horse to win this particular race, even though he was one of the logical choices.

As I understand it, only the first three finishers are regularly tested for drugs
(unless the stewards request a test on an also-ran). So, there would be no evidence to the fact that trainer had prevented his horse from winning.

[Greyfox]

I ask you: "Are races fixed?" I'd think we'd have to be naive to think that there weren't some races that are fixed. Personally, I've seen too many strange things happen on the racetrack to think they were just caused by chance.

For the record. I'm not some wet-behind-the-ears kid. At 65, I've seen and wagered on countless thousands of races.

.

If you really believe that even some races are fixed, why would you have played 1000's of them?
I'd venture to say that the chance of finding a fixed race is less than 1 in ten thousand or 1/10,000!
That doesn't mean that a given trainer won't do something to liven a horses chances. Or conversely a bucket of water before the race to dull its chances.
But I too have seen thousands of races. Maybe 1 in 10,000 is suspect of what we call "boat."
So basically my answer is THE RACES ARE NOT FIXED.
If I thought that they were "fixed," I wouldn't play them.

[njcurveball]

. Cheap horses, over-the-hill jockeys and rather lax security were a prescription for all kinds of "fun and games." Jockeys would fall off horses. Horses would break down. Others would blow the tight turns.



I understand that WE (me included) as horseplayers like to have our own opinion on things.

But do you realize that simply falling off a horse puts a jock at risk to be paralyzed? Let alone the chance of being trampled and taking a hoof to the heart or head, since they must be pretty close to the front or falling off would not make any difference, right?

As for horses breaking down, if these "over the hill" jocks could magically do that, then they really should be in the Hall of Fame. I do not know of any jock who can grab the reins of a horse (even a cheap one) and make them break down at will.

As for blowing tight turns, that is natural for cheap horses, they could do that without the jocks help.

Surely you have thought some of this out? Do you actually think a jockey would fall off in front of other horses simply to cash a bet? :bang:

[kenwoodallpromos]

This from the Ma racing commission:
"(3) A blood or urine specimen, or both, may be taken and tested from ****any horse or horses which may be designated by the Stewards and or the Commission for analysis. The specimens shall be collected under the direction and supervision of the Commission's representatives. Such specimens as may be collected shall be tested by the Racing Chemist at the Racing Commission Laboratory or other Laboratory designated by the Commission."
The last study in the late 1990's showed 1/2 of 1% of horses tested had performance enhancing drugs in them.
I allow 5% in my handicapping for any unforseen circumstances in cluding drugs. That means that if the takeout in WPS is 15%, you need to predict the outcome 20% better than the average bettor. Exotics you need to be 30% better.
My story is that Zippy Chippy a few years back was 8-1 M/L and sopme people thought the race at Barrington Fair would be thrown to him; the result was that ZC showed and the winner was 25-1! (ZC actually had a decent show % during his career)!

[kitts]

Back in the '50s my best source for fixed races was my bookie. These were at major tracks and I have no other knowledge than what he told me. I never bet these and was only given three. All three won, so maybe....

[njcurveball]

All three won, so maybe....

Are we talking $100 horses or favorites?

[TEJAS KIDD]

Are we talking $100 horses or favorites?

I doubt they were $100 horses if the bookie new about it and told one of his customers. Chances are the bookie took the bet, knew he was going to lose, told all his customers,who in turn, went to the track and lowered the odds. He also layed off the action at the track and maybe even bet some more for himself. There's no better way to thwart the efforts of a race fixer then lowering the odds substantially.

[oddsmaven]

I like the chances of races being on the up & up at the major circuits that I follow...the jockeys at those venues make a good (some great) living and would be foolish to risk their livelihood to cash a bet...trainers at times do things to try & get an edge, but I guess there aren't too many businesses that are only populated by saints. :eek: I wouldn't put much stock in hearing what some bookie and a small-time owner, said.

[ranchwest]

Back years ago, Delta Downs was a wild place. I saw at least three races that I was almost certain were fixed. There were a lot of others that I questioned. And, I wasn't there the night of the fog race.

I haven't personally noticed such shenanigans in recent years, but I figure some maneuvers outside the lines are always possible. I haven't been to Delta recently, so I can't say one way or the other about that track.

And, as mentioned by someone else there's also the things that happen that affect the outcome and are tough to prove and do affect the public, such as tanking a horse up on water.

[boomman]

Back years ago, Delta Downs was a wild place. I saw at least three races that I was almost certain were fixed. There were a lot of others that I questioned. And, I wasn't there the night of the fog race.

I haven't personally noticed such shenanigans in recent years, but I figure some maneuvers outside the lines are always possible. I haven't been to Delta recently, so I can't say one way or the other about that track.

And, as mentioned by someone else there's also the things that happen that affect the outcome and are tough to prove and do affect the public, such as tanking a horse up on water.

In my 30 years in the business, I won't insult anybody's intelligence by saying that I haven't heard rumors (mostly unsubstantiated) of race fixing....But I do strongly agree with a poster on this thread that says it rarely happens if at all, and I can absolutely without question tell you that the "fog race" at Delta Downs that you are referring to, (in which I was covering it for National Raceline at the time that it happened, and in fact, I vividly remember that the name of the horse was "Landing Officer") was 100% NOT A FIXED RACE. The reason I know this?? Joseph Calais, who was on the horse that eventually was declared the winner, IMMEDIATELY got on the phone to the stewards to claim foul and to tell them that there was in NO WAY a horse that was in front of him! Then in later years I worked with folks who were in the press box that night that confirmed that the stewards went back over the tape to confirm that ONLY 9 of the 10 horses had indeed crossed the finish line the first time! Jockey Sylvester Carmouche, Jr was the guilty party, and did this entirely on his own, was disqualified and placed last and received a 10 year suspension (of which he served approx 5 years before being reinstated) from The Louisiana Racing Commission................

Boomer

[TEJAS KIDD]

In my 30 years in the business, I won't insult anybody's intelligence by saying that I haven't heard rumors (mostly unsubstantiated) of race fixing....But I do strongly agree with a poster on this thread that says it rarely happens if at all, and I can absolutely without question tell you that the "fog race" at Delta Downs that you are referring to, (in which I was covering it for National Raceline at the time that it happened, and in fact, I vividly remember that the name of the horse was "Landing Officer") was 100% NOT A FIXED RACE. The reason I know this?? Joseph Calais, who was on the horse that eventually was declared the winner, IMMEDIATELY got on the phone to the stewards to claim foul and to tell them that there was in NO WAY a horse that was in front of him! Then in later years I worked with folks who were in the press box that night that confirmed that the stewards went back over the tape to confirm that ONLY 9 of the 10 horses had indeed crossed the finish line the first time! Jockey Sylvester Carmouche, Jr was the guilty party, and did this entirely on his own, was disqualified and placed last and received a 10 year suspension (of which he served approx 5 years before being reinstated) from The Louisiana Racing Commission................

Boomer

I did that at Bay Meadows. A few of us were betting Los Alamitos and decided we would have a race on the BM turfcourse. 3 of us left the wire for the mile run. I couldnt keep up with the other 2 as we went down the backstretch. I decided to jump the inner rail, sprint across the infield and wait for my rivals in the bushes along the inner rail. One of my opponents passed as I waited at the 16th pole, the other one followed about 50 yds behind him, I couldnt leave until the 2nd one went by. I jumped out and sprinted at the leader but I was unable to catch him because he was 50 yds ahead of me. Noone even knew what I had done, not even our friends that were watching. I couldnt even cheat and win.

[the little guy]

The dishonesty at Great Barrington Fair is legendary. Some of you might recall the Frontline piece on PBS quite a few years ago where the trainer ( who was filmed in darkness ) said " I don't think these races are fixed.....I know they are. "

[njcurveball]

The dishonesty at Great Barrington Fair is legendary.

Clue me in please! I do not bet this track. Did they take turns or seriously expect all of the losing owners, trainers, jockeys to all make money at the windows?

[Dave Schwartz]

Are races ever fixed? Of course they are. Otherwise we would not have long suspensions and disbarments for it. That does not mean that it is common enough to make the game either unbeatable or unpleasurable.

Personally, I would be much more concerned about the potential for past-posting than fixing.

After all, the fixed race might not cost me money -I could have a bet on the "fixed" horse. The past-posting (if it is real) actually takes money directly out of my pocket.

If it is only perceived it reduces handle which is probably from a less-than-over-burdened-with-intelligence player. Removing "dumb" money from the pool hurts my pocket, too.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[kenwoodallpromos]

Clue me in please! I do not bet this track. Did they take turns or seriously expect all of the losing owners, trainers, jockeys to all make money at the windows?
IMO the WORST way to fix a race would be to have everyone take turns. Greed makes that way unreliable.
The best way is the fav's trainer to have overweights in routes.

[njcurveball]

The best way is the fav's trainer to have overweights in routes.

So we are saying a "fixed" race really involves only stiffing one or two horses?

I can see that happening much easier than a true "fixed" race where they all agree to let one horse win and another finish 2nd.

[delayjf]

But do you realize that simply falling off a horse puts a jock at risk to be paralyzed?
I wouldn't think that the risk would be too great coming out of the gate. If I were going to fall off a horse that's were I'd do it.

I doubt many races are fixed in the manner of Tony Cuilla, I think individual horses are manipulated everyday, but that does not quarantee it will be successful. Probably most betting coups are unsuccessful. I had a trainer once tell me he knew another trainer who in order to still his horse ( a favorite) he'd either feed him a big meal just prior to bringing him over to be saddled.

According to Beyer, "the fat man" aka Robert Miller was the best. It would be interesting to read more about his exploits.

Interesting article about Ciulla
http://www.nysun.com/article/7761

[Norm]

Whenever there are human beings and money in the same context, there will be attempts at larceny, however, major-circuit racing is well policed, probably better than the stock market, and punishment for detection is severe. I personally believe that mis-doings at the major tracks are few and far between and I bet with complete confidence at my chosen tracks.

[Tape Reader]

When I was a kid I worked a night shift in a print shop. The bookie on the day shift would give me a couple of dollars if I would collect the night shift's bets and put them in his locker for the following day. Around Christmas time one year, he told not to take any bets on a certain horse, and if possible, to bet it for myself. I asked why and he told me that it was a "commission horse". He explained that around the holidays they would fix a race for all the "runners" (Red Hook, Brooklyn).

That particular horse ran on a Monday, and being a night worker Monday to Friday, I was unaware of it. The horse won and paid over $100.

[njcurveball]

I wouldn't think that the risk would be too great coming out of the gate. If I were going to fall off a horse that's were I'd do it.



So you would first break your horse in last place to minimize any horse swerving and hitting you and then fall off? Perhaps you would also bring a ladder? :jump:

A horse leaving the gate is going at a clip of close to 60 fps. Just because you cannot get trampled it doesn't cushion the blow any better.

I am always amazed that people think falling off a horse is a "natural" way to fix a race.

Andrew Lakeman, Sydney Underwood, Gary Birzer, Shannon Campbell and many others would probably disagree with you my friend! :mad:

[the little guy]

Clue me in please! I do not bet this track. Did they take turns or seriously expect all of the losing owners, trainers, jockeys to all make money at the windows?


It's a good thing you don't bet Great Barrington.....if you told me you were betting there I would have to assume you were in the loony bin. They haven't raced there for around ten years. The shenanigans there were in the 80s and prior years. There's a good chapter about it in " My $50K Year at the Racetrack " by Andy Beyer.

I saw some things there back in the 70s that I wouldn't believe if anyone told me about it. Suffice to say, in some races the DRF meant absolutely nothing, and the board meant everything. The shit kind of hit the fan on the same day that Timely Writer broke down in the Jockey Club Gold Cup when some 17-1 shot won, and a 35-1 shot or so was second, and the exacta paid like $48 ( and there was decent money in the pools ). Even the NY Press got ahold of that story.

[Greyfox]

DS A "Fixed Race" is NOT a "Fixed Horse."


A "Fixed Horse" may or may not win.
A "Fixed Race" the winner is fixed. Doesn't happen.

[Dan Montilion]

One does not need all riders involved to fix a race. Suppose there are a group of three to four riders that are padding their bank accounts through nefarious purposes. The boys just wait around untill two of them are on the speed in the race, one takes back the other runs interference. But the best situation is when there are three pace types in the race and two of the gang are on two of them, then they just put the unsuspecting rider on the lead and get in the way of the others.

Advantages of the above is the fewer that know the better from a getting away with it stand point. Disadvantage is that you could still get beat from off the pace, but what an edge. There is no doubt in my mind that this type of scenario took place in northern California a couple of decades ago, for a very short period of time. On a very limited number of races.

I still feel that it is rare indeed and I approach the game in that manner. But I'm not naive to think that it could not happen again, if it does I just hope I can figure it out after the fact and somehow profit.

[rrpic6]

Do you actually think a jockey would fall off in front of other horses simply to cash a bet?

How about JUMP OFF! Michael Rowland jumped off a 2/5 horse with a 10 length lead on closing day of Thistledown in the mid 90's. It was the 2nd half of the twin-tri, a must give away of close to 200K. Investigations lasted for years. The track eventually refused to show replays of that race on their in-house library. A buddy of mine still has his exchange ticket for the twin-tri from that day...Rowlands' horse/the horse that inherited 1st/the horse that inherited 2nd/.

RR

[kenwoodallpromos]

The thread starter mentioned both single and group "fixings"; So I am going by those definitions. I think weighing down a horse by hiring an overweifght jockey (or letting the fav drink too much water the morning of the race) is an open and foolproof way to not get caught.

[Show Me the Wire]

How about sponging the heavy fav? That fixes the race. So yes some races are fixed.

[rdavislake]

I always heard the "fog race" was at Evangeline Downs......I have no basis for this next comment....It's just an observation so don't beat me up in this thread...
It seems longshots come in with greater frequency, and low percentage jocks take a few more trips to the winners circle when the race meet winds down towards the end of it's dates and folks need a little travelling money to get to the next track.......

[Greyfox]

I always heard the "fog race" was at Evangeline Downs......I have no basis for this next comment....It's just an observation so don't beat me up in this thread...
It seems longshots come in with greater frequency, and low percentage jocks take a few more trips to the winners circle when the race meet winds down towards the end of it's dates and folks need a little travelling money to get to the next track.......

As with this observation and several others elsewhere on this board, and along this thread, the Scottish saying is:
"He who claims must prove."
What evidence do you have, if any, for the above comment?
Horses, although biomechanical properties are involved are not machines.

[boomman]

I always heard the "fog race" was at Evangeline Downs......I have no basis for this next comment....It's just an observation so don't beat me up in this thread...
It seems longshots come in with greater frequency, and low percentage jocks take a few more trips to the winners circle when the race meet winds down towards the end of it's dates and folks need a little travelling money to get to the next track.......

rdavis: I won't beat you up:) , but notice I didn't say anything about guessing where the "Fog Race" was.....I even gave you the jockey that ultimately was suspended for 10 years because he hid in the fog at Delta Downs and the name of the horse! What else did you need???????:confused:

Boomer

[rdavislake]

Re-read my post.....It's an "observation".......I didn't post to start a fight....I have no proof.......Guys like you need to pick their battles a bit more selectively, and stop trying to intimidate those of us who just want to add our 2cents......relax....:)

[Greyfox]

Re-read my post.....It's an "observation".......I didn't post to start a fight....I have no proof.......Guys like you need to pick their battles a bit more selectively, and stop trying to intimidate those of us who just want to add our 2cents......relax....:)

I'm not picking a fight nor trying to intimidate anyone. The problem with "unsubstantiated observations" is that they gather legs. Those legs influence public perceptions about racing.
Thank you for admitting that you have "no proof."
Maybe someone else who visits this forum can demonstrate your observation.
A lot of the board members have data bases. I don't.
The fact is if the general public starts to believe that "racing is crooked" and this board's consensus supports that, it ain't good for the game.
As I said earlier, if a race has been fixed, it is a very rare event.
So for the rest of you who think that a race has been fixed in the last year,
please show us your evidence.

[boomman]

Re-read my post.....It's an "observation".......I didn't post to start a fight....I have no proof.......Guys like you need to pick their battles a bit more selectively, and stop trying to intimidate those of us who just want to add our 2cents......relax....:)

rdavis: I think everyone on here would agree that in no way was I doing anything to fight you or try to intimidate you and even smiled at your "don't beat me up" comment....you questioned my statement about the fog race being at Evangeline Downs, I simply re-iterated that I had positive PROOF that the race in question was at Delta....I think you're the one that might need to relax:) As Greyfox states correctly in his thread, this is a delicate subject that probably is not best left open to casual "observations". But when we respond to you, don't be so defensive, we're simply responding to your questions/comments......:ThmbUp:

Boomer

[njcurveball]

How about sponging the heavy fav? That fixes the race. So yes some races are fixed.

Spot on call! I am learning that the definition here is whenever any horse has his chances compromised.

In that case, I would agree it happens much more often than it should!

As for jumping off a horse, God bless the jocks courage! It doesn't take a whole lot of time for the field to catch up to a jock with a 10 length lead when he is laying on the ground.

[Track Collector]

[QUOTE=the little guy]It's a good thing you don't bet Great Barrington.....if you told me you were betting there I would have to assume you were in the loony bin. They haven't raced there for around ten years. The shenanigans there were in the 80s and prior years.

You are correct. Great Barrington last raced in 1998.

[Shenanigans]

Spot on call! I am learning that the definition here is whenever any horse has his chances compromised.

In that case, I would agree it happens much more often than it should!

As for jumping off a horse, God bless the jocks courage! It doesn't take a whole lot of time for the field to catch up to a jock with a 10 length lead when he is laying on the ground.


More like "God rest his soul".;) Mikey was capable of hitting the ground softly and did it more than once. Thistledown is the only track I made a killing at when betting. That track use to have it's own little "mafia" running the races and it was in the jocks room. I was good at observing patterns and caught on to the "game". I cashed more bets at that cheap track than any other track out there. When I went to the big "races" my "handicapping" went down the drain.:p
Yes, there is race fixing. Yes, it happens a lot at the tiny cheap tracks.

[Robert Goren]

It happens at all tracks at levels. The jockey pretty much controls the horse. All he has to do is to stop urging the the horse. If you watch enough races, you can spot it pretty easily. Some people think that when a horse comes out the turn wide that the jockey is pulling the horse. They are wrong. Some can not pass another horse if "it looks him in the eye." Some horse won't go up the rail inside of another horse. Others won't go between horses. There are a few (very few) jockeys who can some times get one of these horses to do some thing they wouldn't ordinary do. Garret Gomez is one. Some horses loaf when they get the lead. A lot of good horses do that. Then there are the bleeders. They are story all to themselves. If the fix is in, the best you can hope for is that you are on the right side of it. Of coarse very few betters will admit (even to themselves) that they have lucked into a winning bet because of a fix.

[lamboguy]

great barrington was a one of a kind place. there were 2 jockeys there that fell off horses, paul luce and brad gainer. i take it that is what you are refering to. i beleive both were suspended for life, neither one of those two were dealt full decks either.


you have managed to pick out the one time when horseracing was at its worst.
please understand this, i don't think the total racing handles for the great barington fair hit $100k on a daily basis. so there was a lack of fear and overseeing.

i have not seen anything like this anywhere else since then. any jock that falls off horses and risks their lives for small money is a koo-koo clock to begin with.

racing needs a strong commision, with very harsh penalties, in order to maintain the sport, and probably prosper. today its a lot harder to find than just plain dumb pinheads falling off of horses. you know have "super-trainers" using designer drugs. kickbacks in the horse sales, the auctioneers have turned thier heads the other way for years now. jess jackson finaly took up suit, but that was only tip of the iceberg. culprits still buying and training horses to this day in major venues/

the integrety of the parimutual racing pools are in question on a constant basis.

automobile racing is a growing sport without mutual windows, they experience sharp increases, while horse-racing is on the decline. i maintain, clean up the sport and you will give the casino's and other spoting events a run for their money.

this task is reletively easy, look at the casino's. they protect the house at all times, they protect the players against the house and other bad apples, they maintain a legitamate product at all times. use them for examples and follow them to a tee, its not that hard!

[rutalkingtome55]

I ask you: "Are races fixed?" I'd think we'd have to be naive to think that there weren't some races that are fixed. Personally, I've seen too many strange things happen on the racetrack to think they were just caused by chance.

For the record. I'm not some wet-behind-the-ears kid. At 65, I've seen and wagered on countless thousands of races.

Let me share just two of several stories. Many years ago, I had a friend whose dad owned horses. He also was a heavy gambler. I have no knowledge that he himself ever tried to fix any races in which his horses were entered; but I was told by his son (my friend) that he did try to rig a race at one of the fairs here in MA.

Years ago, fair racing was prominent in MA. There were the Marshfield, Northampton, Great Barrington and Brockton Fairs. Cheap horses, over-the-hill jockeys and rather lax security were a prescription for all kinds of "fun and games." Jockeys would fall off horses. Horses would break down. Others would blow the tight turns.

Well, in this particular case (I was not present), my friend tells me that his father greased some jockeys to try to fix one of the races. As my friend tells it, you could have fit a Mack truck through the hole that was opened up for the intended winning horse. Only in this case--- the horse didn't win! Why? I was never told. All I know was the my friend's dad's horse was given every opportunity to win.

In another story, a friend of mine was in tight with some of the trainers. I remember asking my buddy if he liked a horse I was going to play (the horse was conditoned by one of his trainer-friends). He counselled: "Don't use him!" I asked why. I was told that the horse in question was probably going to be "stopped" in the barn (I remember the word "stopped" being used).
I recall my friend saying that the trainer had not intended his horse to win this particular race, even though he was one of the logical choices.

As I understand it, only the first three finishers are regularly tested for drugs
(unless the stewards request a test on an also-ran). So, there would be no evidence to the fact that trainer had prevented his horse from winning.

If you think they are fixed why are you still betting then. :bang:

[rutalkingtome55]

I understand that WE (me included) as horseplayers like to have our own opinion on things.

But do you realize that simply falling off a horse puts a jock at risk to be paralyzed? Let alone the chance of being trampled and taking a hoof to the heart or head, since they must be pretty close to the front or falling off would not make any difference, right?

As for horses breaking down, if these "over the hill" jocks could magically do that, then they really should be in the Hall of Fame. I do not know of any jock who can grab the reins of a horse (even a cheap one) and make them break down at will.

As for blowing tight turns, that is natural for cheap horses, they could do that without the jocks help.

Surely you have thought some of this out? Do you actually think a jockey would fall off in front of other horses simply to cash a bet? :bang:

No would be the answer, I know a jockey real well, if you want to do something and mind you this is just between you and me, they do it at the start when the gate opens up, they can fix it just fine. believe me. ;)

[Imriledup]

It happens at all tracks at levels. The jockey pretty much controls the horse. All he has to do is to stop urging the the horse. If you watch enough races, you can spot it pretty easily. Some people think that when a horse comes out the turn wide that the jockey is pulling the horse. They are wrong. Some can not pass another horse if "it looks him in the eye." Some horse won't go up the rail inside of another horse. Others won't go between horses. There are a few (very few) jockeys who can some times get one of these horses to do some thing they wouldn't ordinary do. Garret Gomez is one. Some horses loaf when they get the lead. A lot of good horses do that. Then there are the bleeders. They are story all to themselves. If the fix is in, the best you can hope for is that you are on the right side of it. Of coarse very few betters will admit (even to themselves) that they have lucked into a winning bet because of a fix.

Actually, if you are an astute racewatcher, you don't want to be on the right side of the fix....you want to be on the horse who would have won had it not been 'held back'. That means your handicapping is was spot on. It means you didn't win this time, but the horse you bet on is better than he looks on paper and you can crush him the next time he races.

Of course, the best of both worlds is being on the right side of the fix on a horse who was going to win regardless of being the 'setup' horse.

[Greyfox]

No would be the answer, I know a jockey real well, if you want to do something and mind you this is just between you and me, they do it at the start when the gate opens up, they can fix it just fine. believe me. ;)

just between you and me and the internet.:lol:

[rdavislake]

I guess I would have to respond by saying if this thread holds the balance of the Public's belief about the integrity of racing in it's hands, then the sport is in more trouble than I originally thought. I'll add that I've bred and raced horses in the State of Louisiana some 25 years now. I've probably learned just enough to be dangerous, and to be able to let people know what not to do in this business. (meaning I don't yet know what to tell them to do)......I don't have a data base, but I've got a set of eyes that have seen a horse get left at the gate, and a horse get yanked almost to a stop in the stretch.......If those unsubstantiated comments cause the racing industry to fold their tents, then I guess I'll have to shoulder the blame..........But, believe me, not too many people care what I think outside a few I deal with in the industry.....And further, I went some 23 years in the business without knowing this website existed. No disrespect meant to anyone or anything. But what's said here pretty much stays here, including my half educated, dumb-assed ramblings........

[NY BRED]

in today's world, especially in the tri's and superfecta gimmicks,
huge payoffs result quite often with the third or fourth place
finishers , which leaves me wondering how closely the stewards
watch the actions of jockeys and horses in the entire field, rather than the first Four horses.

[Fred]

If you really believe that even some races are fixed, why would you have played 1000's of them?
I'd venture to say that the chance of finding a fixed race is less than 1 in ten thousand or 1/10,000!
That doesn't mean that a given trainer won't do something to liven a horses chances. Or conversely a bucket of water before the race to dull its chances.
But I too have seen thousands of races. Maybe 1 in 10,000 is suspect of what we call "boat."
So basically my answer is THE RACES ARE NOT FIXED.
If I thought that they were "fixed," I wouldn't play them.


Do you play the stock market?

Freddy

[KARMA]

i am new here, but i felt i had to respond here....can anyone tell me how trainers have 30 - 40% win percententages ( pletcher & catalano for example) but yet in the "big" races (pletcher for example) RARELY wins????????...

imsure at every small track some dishonest acts take place or are attempted, but in most cases they rarely cash tickets..just look at the jocks and trainers at the smaller tracks...if the races were as "fixed" as proposed here, would these jocks and trainers be found sleeping in their cars or in run down trailer parks???sure some of these guys try to get over but most times they fail because they have poor skills and NO BRAINS...they only succeed in screwing up a race that they try to "fix" and NO one cashes

by the way the answer to my top question is fairly simple..it is " DETENTION BARN" for 24 hrs prior to racetime

[Overlay]

I'm not naive enough to believe that occasional fixing cannot or does not happen, but two factors help me to avoid obsessing about it: the consistent recurrence and durability of probabilities associated with basic handicapping characteristics (which would not occur if widespread fixing were taking place); and maintaining visibility of the winning chances of each horse in a field, rather than trying to isolate only the horse most likely to finish first (which provides the possibility that, even in a "fixed" race, the winner will be bettable based on its odds).

[john del riccio]

I'm not naive enough to believe that occasional fixing cannot or does not happen, but two factors help me to avoid "fix"-ating on it: the consistent recurrence and durability of probabilities associated with basic handicapping characteristics (which would not occur if widespread fixing were taking place); and maintaining visibility of the winning chances of each horse in a field, rather than trying to isolate only the horse most likely to finish first (which provides the possibility that, even in a "fixed" race, the winner will be bettable based on its odds).

I had to chime in on this one because the phrase "fixed" sort of implies that all or most of the participants are in the know regarding a specific outcome of a race. I truly beleive that this is rare. However, there are many times when a trainer might run a horse cold (ie without race day meds) to darken its form.
Is this considered fixing a race ? Some would say yes, others might not. When the connections send a horse out with the intent of teaching them something during a race (rating, remaining covered up, handling turns better etc.), is this race fixing ? Again, its open to interpretation. A jock that is upset with an owber or trainer and taking it out on their mount, all in the interpretation....

My true beleif is that standardbred racing is much more conducive to race fixing simply due to the mechanics of being boxed it, thi sis why my POP used to call harness racing theatre !

With all of this said, the end of certian meets tend to produce "unusual" results and if there was ever a scenario for "getting a low % barn a win", it may happen at that time.

John

[Overlay]

I think that, even with darkened form (as opposed to outright fixing), the handicapper's best strategy is still to go with established probabilities and full-field visibility/assessment of winning chances. To me, use of a proper mix of handicapping factors can highlight betting value in those cases as well.

[MONEY]

I don't think that races are fixed by jockeys and/or trainers conspiring to hold horses back. But I do think that every so often one individual may do something the alter the performance of a horse. Sponging, overfeeding and improper use of medication are some ways to alter performance. But an undectable way is just to run a horse so fast the 1st 1/4 to 1/2 that the horse could not have anything left for the stretch. I have seen this move done on numerous favorites in booth harness and flats, and of course usually at the tracks with small purses.

MONEY

[jma]

i am new here, but i felt i had to respond here....can anyone tell me how trainers have 30 - 40% win percententages ( pletcher & catalano for example) but yet in the "big" races (pletcher for example) RARELY wins????????...

imsure at every small track some dishonest acts take place or are attempted, but in most cases they rarely cash tickets..just look at the jocks and trainers at the smaller tracks...if the races were as "fixed" as proposed here, would these jocks and trainers be found sleeping in their cars or in run down trailer parks???sure some of these guys try to get over but most times they fail because they have poor skills and NO BRAINS...they only succeed in screwing up a race that they try to "fix" and NO one cashes

by the way the answer to my top question is fairly simple..it is " DETENTION BARN" for 24 hrs prior to racetime

The other answer to your "question" is that on a normal day someone like Catalano can drop a $10000 claimer down to $5000 and win at 3-5, knowing that if the horse is claimed that Calabrese can claim three more like it. On the other hand, if you want to run in the Breeders Cup, you have to face whatever top horses show up---makes it tough to win 30 percent when you face 12 of the best horses in the world.

[Pace Cap'n]

It seems longshots come in with greater frequency, and low percentage jocks take a few more trips to the winners circle when the race meet winds down towards the end of it's dates and folks need a little travelling money to get to the next track.......

originally posted by John Del Riccio
With all of this said, the end of certian meets tend to produce "unusual" results and if there was ever a scenario for "getting a low % barn a win", it may happen at that time.

Greyfox--think we need a poll?

[Greyfox]

Greyfox--think we need a poll?

No. A poll is simply subjective opinion and hardly is proof of anything.
Low percentage riders and barns can score at any day in a meet.
If they score on the last day, people scream foul - "Gettaway day."
If that happens in Hicksville, Arkansas so be it. I only play the major tracks.

[delayjf]

So you would first break your horse in last place to minimize any horse swerving and hitting you and then fall off? Perhaps you would also bring a ladder?

A horse leaving the gate is going at a clip of close to 60 fps. Just because you cannot get trampled it doesn't cushion the blow any better.

No, I'd just fake losing my footing coming out of the gate and slide right off a couple of strides out of the gate. Very little chance of getting trampled at that point in the race as there is nobody behind you and your not moving at 60 fps one or two strides out of the gate. I've even seen jockeys in that situation ( I'm not saying they fell on purpose) hang on to the horse's neck to allowing them to get their feet underneath them for the fall. This would also slow the horse down to further insure that there's nobody behind them.

I'm not saying it's fool proof, only if I were going to throw a race by jumping off a horse - a few strides out of the gate would be the safest time to do so.

[njcurveball]

No, I'd just fake losing my footing coming out of the gate and slide right off a couple of strides out of the gate. Very little chance of getting trampled at that point in the race as there is nobody behind you and your not moving at 60 fps one or two strides out of the gate.


I am hoping that the Stewards would see something like this once, call the jock in, smile and say "Glad you are ok, if it happens again, you will be flipping burgers at Wendys". Then send them on their way.

What you are saying is very similar to a Quarterback lobbing the ball to a defender or a hockey goalie simply moving aside as the puck passes him. These things are obvious and when they happen, I would hope that this board would "light up" with posts about it, replay links given and many, many (and did I say many) letters and emails sent to the track management.

The particular example you have given is one I have never seen with over 30 years of watching races. Have you ever seen this happen?

[delayjf]

The particular example you have given is one I have never seen with over 30 years of watching races. Have you ever seen this happen?
Not one where I would say they fell off on purpose. I'm sure we've both seen riders fall off coming out of the gate. It only occurs to me that if a Jockey were to fall intentionally, that would be the safest time to do so. I can't imagine keeping ones license very long if the Jockey pulled this stunt too often.

[Show Me the Wire]

I don't think that races are fixed by jockeys and/or trainers conspiring to hold horses back. But I do think that every so often one individual may do something the alter the performance of a horse. Sponging, overfeeding and improper use of medication are some ways to alter performance. But an undectable way is just to run a horse so fast the 1st 1/4 to 1/2 that the horse could not have anything left for the stretch. I have seen this move done on numerous favorites in booth harness and flats, and of course usually at the tracks with small purses.

MONEY

Penn National scandal! What you do not think happens does happen.

[lamboguy]

the people in the horseracing business are to stupid to put a plan together. once in awhile a trainer could possibly have his horse compromised so the horse doesn't perform so well. generally they might do it so they could drop a horse down and trick someone with the numbers. and maybe put a bet or 2 in.

my mother always taught me that those that tell don't know, and those that know don't tell. follow that ryme and reason and you will always be one step ahead of illusionist's!

[TEJAS KIDD]

Not one where I would say they fell off on purpose. I'm sure we've both seen riders fall off coming out of the gate. It only occurs to me that if a Jockey were to fall intentionally, that would be the safest time to do so. I can't imagine keeping ones license very long if the Jockey pulled this stunt too often.


Wouldnt it be just as easy for a jockey to get their mount left by 10 lengths. Why would they consider risking their lives to make a bet against themselves. They would still have to pick the winner among the other horses. Your theory doesnt make sense, unless all but 1 rider jumped off their horses leaving the gate.
If a rider wanted to get a horse beat, all he'd have to do was stop trying. If the stewards called him in, all he'd have to say was he didnt like the way the horse was hitting the ground. It happens all the time (happened to one of my horses last week) We had a rider that had never been on her. She hits the ground hard and he was too scared to ride her.

[TEJAS KIDD]

the people in the horseracing business are to stupid to put a plan together. once in awhile a trainer could possibly have his horse compromised so the horse doesn't perform so well. generally they might do it so they could drop a horse down and trick someone with the numbers. and maybe put a bet or 2 in.

my mother always taught me that those that tell don't know, and those that know don't tell. follow that ryme and reason and you will always be one step ahead of illusionist's!

I really wanted to lay in to you about your post, but I decided not to. You really left yourself open here.

[njcurveball]

Your theory doesnt make sense, unless all but 1 rider jumped off their horses leaving the gate.


I would think that when one rider is going to "stiff" his horse he doesn't tell the other riders. But wouldn't it be funny if the gate opened and three or four jocks all jumped off at the same point? :jump:

On a serious note, a loose horse is also dangerous to the other jocks and even without the betting aspect, I would think the other jocks may inflict a "bit of corrective action" if they found someone who did this.

To other jockeys, the replay would make any stiff job fairly obvious. And since many stewards are ex jocks they also should notice things, even little ones that stand out.

I would say it is routine to see a jock stop trying on a horse, but that certainly does not constitute a fixed race in my mind. Many times the jock has tried for most of the race and just decides not to persevere with the horse for 4th or 5th. Which is unfortunate for us Superfecta and now High Five players.

[delayjf]

Wouldnt it be just as easy for a jockey to get their mount left by 10 lengths.
TK,
I agree, my only point is - if your going to take a fall, the safest time to do it would be at the beginning of a race.

Again, this is pure speculation, but IF stiffing horses was common at a track and IF a jockey had previously used other stiffing tactics, then he might opt to take a fall.

Also, according to Tony Cuillo, they didn't just bribe jockeys but they also threaten jockeys and on occassion beat them up. If somebody from the mob threaten me or my family with bodily harm if a certain horse I was riding finished in the superfecta. I might consider taking the fall especially in a small field.

[Greyfox]

TK,
If somebody from the mob threaten me or my family with bodily harm if a certain horse I was riding finished in the superfecta. I might consider taking the fall especially in a small field.

Thank God you're not riding. ;)
Interesting race at Fair Grounds today, maybe the 8 th.
Your tactic appeared plausible as the race developed.
The gate opened. The 8 horse came out, turned left, rider slipped off and ran along by the horse holding the reins. :lol: (It wasn't a fix.)

[delayjf]

Thank God you're not riding.
If I was riding, my mount wouldn't hit the board if we cut across the infield. :lol:

[Shenanigans]

i am new here, but i felt i had to respond here....can anyone tell me how trainers have 30 - 40% win percententages ( pletcher & catalano for example) but yet in the "big" races (pletcher for example) RARELY wins????????...

imsure at every small track some dishonest acts take place or are attempted, but in most cases they rarely cash tickets..just look at the jocks and trainers at the smaller tracks...if the races were as "fixed" as proposed here, would these jocks and trainers be found sleeping in their cars or in run down trailer parks???sure some of these guys try to get over but most times they fail because they have poor skills and NO BRAINS...they only succeed in screwing up a race that they try to "fix" and NO one cashes

by the way the answer to my top question is fairly simple..it is " DETENTION BARN" for 24 hrs prior to racetime


I never knew any of the "race fixing" jockeys to be sleeping in their cars or living in trailer parks. They were driving cars they could live in and I wouldn't exactly call where they lived a trailer park.;)

[Shenanigans]

I'm not picking a fight nor trying to intimidate anyone. The problem with "unsubstantiated observations" is that they gather legs. Those legs influence public perceptions about racing.
Thank you for admitting that you have "no proof."
Maybe someone else who visits this forum can demonstrate your observation.
A lot of the board members have data bases. I don't.
The fact is if the general public starts to believe that "racing is crooked" and this board's consensus supports that, it ain't good for the game.
As I said earlier, if a race has been fixed, it is a very rare event.
So for the rest of you who think that a race has been fixed in the last year,
please show us your evidence.


Can you explain to me why Tampa won't let Terry Houghton and the rest of those pinheads back to ride? There is a handful of other tracks that won't let them ride either. Tampa has very good reason and evidence.
P.S. Terry learned by the best at Thistledown.;)

[Shenanigans]

I don't think that races are fixed by jockeys and/or trainers conspiring to hold horses back. But I do think that every so often one individual may do something the alter the performance of a horse. Sponging, overfeeding and improper use of medication are some ways to alter performance. But an undectable way is just to run a horse so fast the 1st 1/4 to 1/2 that the horse could not have anything left for the stretch. I have seen this move done on numerous favorites in booth harness and flats, and of course usually at the tracks with small purses.

MONEY

You are extremely naive to think jocks and trainers don't hold horses. Trainers will have the jock hold the horse for a few races then find an "easy" race for the horse and "turn it loose."

[ranchwest]

In my 30 years in the business, I won't insult anybody's intelligence by saying that I haven't heard rumors (mostly unsubstantiated) of race fixing....But I do strongly agree with a poster on this thread that says it rarely happens if at all, and I can absolutely without question tell you that the "fog race" at Delta Downs that you are referring to, (in which I was covering it for National Raceline at the time that it happened, and in fact, I vividly remember that the name of the horse was "Landing Officer") was 100% NOT A FIXED RACE. The reason I know this?? Joseph Calais, who was on the horse that eventually was declared the winner, IMMEDIATELY got on the phone to the stewards to claim foul and to tell them that there was in NO WAY a horse that was in front of him! Then in later years I worked with folks who were in the press box that night that confirmed that the stewards went back over the tape to confirm that ONLY 9 of the 10 horses had indeed crossed the finish line the first time! Jockey Sylvester Carmouche, Jr was the guilty party, and did this entirely on his own, was disqualified and placed last and received a 10 year suspension (of which he served approx 5 years before being reinstated) from The Louisiana Racing Commission................

Boomer

The only reason the fog race was not fixed was because the fix was discovered.

In that cheap claiming race, Carmouche's horse won by a huge margin and bested the track record (there were very few horses running near track record time in the years around the fog incident). And, as you noted, Calais noted what had happened.

The LRC was not able to give Carmouche the maximum penalty because the purse was so low that the infraction was not a felony. So, several times they renewed his lesser penalty.

Finally, Carmouche went to the LRC and said he was willing to change his story and tell the truth. He did. That was perjury, so the LRC was then able to give him the maximum penalty, not for the race violation, but for the perjury.

In my next post, I'll relate some of the things I did see at Delta.

[Greyfox]

Can you explain to me why Tampa won't let Terry Houghton and the rest of those pinheads back to ride? There is a handful of other tracks that won't let them ride either. Tampa has very good reason and evidence.
P.S. Terry learned by the best at Thistledown.;)

Can I explain to you why Tampa.....Ask Tampa. I don't even play the track.

If you are so sure that Tampa has good reason and evidence, perhaps you can state it here. I bet one of those guys at another track a while back, not that long after they were kicked out of Tampa.

[ranchwest]

As I stated earlier, several times I saw some very, very odd things at Delta Downs (this was years ago, before the current ownership). I suppose that one might argue that I can't prove that any were fixes, but I think one would have to be naive to not think these races were fixed. I know that some of you will think I'm a nutty liar for relating these crazy stories, but they're all true.

1) A trainer who I knew personally (somewhat to my chagrin) was later found to have been swindling the Feds. He wasn't truly training horses. He had a relative who would send to him horses that needed a layoff. He'd put the horse out to pasture and then run the horse at Delta Downs.

One night he had a horse running, so knowing the kind of guy he was (not really to be trusted either way) I put $2 to win on the horse.

The horses got on the backside and bunched up. This guy's horse went from last to first in about 100 yards. I thought this was mighty strange, so I looked at the replay. Every horse in the race moved off the rail and bunched into a group so that horse could go last to first.

I could be wrong, but I'll go to my grave figuring that race was fixed.

2) That same trainer had a horse in the last race at Delta one night and he and the owner were drunk as skunks and yelled to another trainer "let him go" and laughed and laughed. Both horses were at huge prices and came in. The trainer's owner had the exacta (several thousand dollars) and $50 across on both horses. They collected about $5k. I think there was something going on there, but I can't swear to it.

3) Only one time did I see a jockey at Delta say anything to the public while on their horse. This was another one of those notorious last races on the card at Delta. Every jockey in the post parade told the few fans on the rail on that cold night to bet the 4. Of course, having never seen this before, I immediately drew a line through the 4. Unfortunately, I guessed the wrong other horse, but the 4 lost. Since every jock in the race suggested betting the 4 and it lost, I'd guess there was a fix on that race.

4) Now, the craziest one I've ever seen.

A friend of mine said, "Did you hear that announcement about a car's lights being on? There's no car. The license plate is a tip on the race. You rank the horses by morning line, then take the license plate and apply that to the sequenced horses. That's the tri, bet it straight. Here it is."

I didn't bet the straight tri (or any other tri).

The horses came around and the horses were in the wrong order. The board flashed "Objection". The objection focused on a horses' butt floating out on the first turn and brushing another horse. This happens in almost every race ever run. But, in this race they uphold the objection. They change the sequence and my friend's tri is good.

The tri paid $550, just short of the IRS threshhold.

I can't help but believe that was a fixed race.

As I said, I can't prove any of the above were fixed races, but they sure did smell like it.

[sammy the sage]

Calder...3 month's ago...maiden....ML 20/1...shoulda been 30/1...

went off at 8/5...exacta's ALL paying less than $10....

Horse blows the turn for home and is 6 length's behind and is running zig/zag across the track...still get's up by a NOSE...wow

You tell me...fix or not?

[Greyfox]

I know that some of you will think I'm a nutty liar for relating these crazy stories, but they're all true.

.

I don't think you're nuts. I think the stories are true. The conclusions are wrong
that's all. No proof.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Can you explain to me why Tampa won't let Terry Houghton and the rest of those pinheads back to ride? There is a handful of other tracks that won't let them ride either. Tampa has very good reason and evidence.
P.S. Terry learned by the best at Thistledown.;)
They were barred because jockeys have no pull- some were reinstated.
Here is an example of what I am talking about:
"(Muskegon County, November 3, 2005, 12:13 p.m.) A jockey who officials say bet against his own horse during a race at Great Lakes Downs has been barred from racing for seven years.

Michigan racing officials say Roberto Perez violated state rules by betting on several horses, none of them his own, during a race in October at the track in Fruitport Township.

Jockeys are not allowed to bet on other horses in a race that they are riding in.

24 Hour News 8 has learned the state racing commission has suspended Perez from racing anywhere in the country for seven years. He will also have to pay a $7,000 fine.

****A trainer that tried to cash the winning ticket for Perez has been ****suspended for 60 days and will pay a $1,000 fine.

[ranchwest]

I don't think you're nuts. I think the stories are true. The conclusions are wrong
that's all. No proof.

As I stated, I can't prove that there were fixes. However, neither you nor I can prove there weren't. What we can conclude is that these were extraordinarily odd happenings.

[ranchwest]

How about another odd thing from the old days of Delta Downs?

There were a lot of trainers suspended (26, I think) for doping.

The trainers asked that the samples be re-tested. The new tests revealed caffeine and nicotine in the samples.

The suspensions were dropped since the horses were probably not smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee.

[karlskorner]

" INSIDE HORSERACING " by Dr. Joseph D. Davidson, D.V.M. published 1978.

The VET Dr. devotesd several chapters to the "fixing" of races, some legit,
some not. To Quote " Present horse racing is a far cry from it's inception as a sport. About the only remaining factors the two have in common are that horses are still used and it is still competive. A great imagination is necessary to classify horse racing as a true sport. IT IS BIG BUSINESS.

[Greyfox]

" INSIDE HORSERACING " by Dr. Joseph D. Davidson, D.V.M. published 1978.

.

That source was only 3 decades old. Got any other old stuff?:lol:

[karlskorner]

Exactely, I put the publishing date in on purpose. Nothing has changed, the chemicals maybe different, but the motives are still the same.

[Greyfox]

Exactely, I put the publishing date in on purpose. Nothing has changed, the chemicals maybe different, but the motives are still the same.

We agree if that was your intent. Hopefully race tracks are a little wiser today.
I wouldn't quarrel with anyone about "chemists" and "horse performances."
I would quarrel about a race being "fixed," which is different than a horse being stimulated or conversely sedated.

[Robert Fischer]

I am not naïve enough to think it doesn't happen.

I am naïve enough to think it most often concerns a single betting interest.

[karlskorner]

The interesting part of the Dr.'s book is that the legitimate ways a Trainer can "fix" a race far outweighs the illegitimate ways. If you can understand why the Trainer put the horse in the race, you will understand his motives

[wilderness]

SPLAN, THE WIT

One of John Splan's most brilliant flashes was placed on record in the lobby of the St. James Hotel, on Broadway, near 33rd St., in New York. The English jockey, Fred Archer, whose name became a household word on this continent on account of him winning the English Derby with Iroquois, had made a trip across the Atlantic in search of health. His headquarters were at the St. James, whose proprietor, Capt. Conner, was an ardent admirer of the gallopers.

One afternoon while Archer was there Splan dropped in for a visit. A group of horsemen suggested that it would be a capital idea to introduce Archer as the greatest living jockey to Splan as the greatest living driver. Archer was very much pleased with the suggestion and after the greetings were exchanged, the slender little man sidled up to the big six-footer and said, "By the way, Mr. Splan, what are the principal fixed events on the trotting turf of America?" He then went on to state that in England they had the Derby, St. Leger, City and Suburban, etc., under that head. Splan waited patiently until his new acquaintance bad completed his explanation. He then stooped over and in a hoarse whisper said in Archer's car: "Between you and me, Fred, they are nearly all fixed." When Capt. Conner heard of it be offered to bet a bottle and a bird against a glass of cold water that Archer would die without ever knowing what Splan meant.

From "Trotalong" by W. H. Gocher-1928

[Greyfox]

The interesting part of the Dr.'s book is that the legitimate ways a Trainer can "fix" a race far outweighs the illegitimate ways. If you can understand why the Trainer put the horse in the race, you will understand his motives

The trainer cannot fix a race. He can only fix a horse.:bang:

[Overlay]

As I said previously, I don't think widespread fixing occurs, but it would seem to be easier to stiff a single horse (especially a favorite) in order to improve the payoff on the race winner, than to assure that a particular horse (especially one with darkened form) will win just because that's the intent of its connections (unless all the other contenders in the race are in on the fix, which would seem implausible).

[gamester01]

Surely there were plenty of fixed races as there are at Charlestown or Penn National (the Boys room at Penn is notorious). Andy Beyer kiboshed GBF with his PBS piece. Good Ammunition for the do gooders in Great Barrington.
The old jockeys loved it as did the old horses.
One day in the early 1980's I saw Lexington Park, once owned by Dutrow SR running. He was 14. Won hundred of thousands in his lifetime.
I went to the barn area (a tent) to see him. He looked like he wanted to be there, and ran hard but did not win.
Also saw Hebert Hinojosa , a big NY jockey in the 1950's, ride there.
They loved the fair as I do.
Tell me that many big trainers do not use needles, Andy Beyer.

HOw about the NBA. the over and under has been fixed for at least 30 years. I know but thought it was the players who went into the tank.
Now I know it ws the refs.
Fixed races, of course.

[hoovesupsideyourhe]

cobra juice..nuff said....

[onefast99]

cobra juice..nuff said....
Yup!

[Shenanigans]

Juicing horses isn't "fixing races".

[PaceAdvantage]

Juicing horses isn't "fixing races".Depends on your definition of "fixed."

[Capper Al]

You have to add the fixed races to the takeout. Where there is money, there is always some sort of cheating going on. There's also what I call legal cheating. Take for example warming up a laid off horse back at the farm so the horse has none or only one work out in their PP lines.

[Cratos]

I ask you: "Are races fixed?" .

No, but I am not too naive to understand that in this multi-billion dollar industry of horseracing that some people in the industry don't "cheat" sometimes to win. However the same “cheating” antics occur in many other industries in America.

[Rook]

People who complain about fixed races are using it as a crutch as to why they haven't made money at the game. Although I am sure there are shenanigans that hurt our bottom lines, the public perception of racing is far worse than the actual truth. The vast majority of races have reasonable outcomes.

In contrast, the stock market's reputation is much better than it deserves to be. I am convinced that people who are involved in racing are far less crooked than corporate insiders. People get jobs in racing because they have a love of sport, outdoors and horses. Those who spend their lives on Wall Street do so for essentially one reason: love of money. Who do you think is more interested in having their hands in your pocket?

[ranchwest]

No, but I am not too naive to understand that in this multi-billion dollar industry of horseracing that some people in the industry don't "cheat" sometimes to win. However the same “cheating” antics occur in many other industries in America.

Man, that consoles me. :confused: