All I can say Hillary, is WOW.....

[PaceAdvantage]

Elect me and oil prices instantly drop, says Hillary Clinton in Iowa

MANCHESTER, N.H. - Hillary Clinton predicted Saturday that just electing her President will cut the price of oil.

When the world hears her commitment at her inauguration about ending American dependence on foreign fuel, Clinton says, oil-pumping countries will lower prices to stifle America's incentive to develop alternative energy.

The rest: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2007/12/23/2007-12-23_elect_me_and_oil_prices_instantly_drop_s-1.html?ref=rss

Ah....big problem there ol' Hil.....the price of oil is determined by the world's free markets. You'd think a wanna-be President of the United States might be able to grasp simple terminology....or was she dummin' it down for the yokels out on the campaign trail?

Some interesting replies that were posted in response to the above article:

Now, drilling in ANWR would instantly lower the price, since speculators would short oil knowing that 16 plus billion new barrels were soon to be on the market. She is of course too stupid to know any of this.

This woman is an utter buffoon. The Democrats promised us lower oil and gas prices prior to the 2006 election, if only we would elect them. We elected them. We got screwed. They lied then and she is lying now.

The problem is there are SO many stupid people that will believe this drivel. What she is saying is she's going to threaten to help the US find alternative energy methods, but when the oil prices plummet just from her majestic presence, then no need for alternative ideas. It's a lie going in, and a lie coming out. How unique; a Klinton lying.

[ljb]

You should not be bad mouthing Hilliary, she is the second choice amongst Wall Street big shots. Rudy being #1.

[rastajenk]

She also said a few months ago that she would seize those obscene oil company profits from them and use it where it would do the most good. Her pandering to the ignorati knows no bounds.

[GaryG]

You should not be bad mouthing Hilliary, she is the second choice amongst Wall Street big shots. Rudy being #1.That woman would be a disaster....glad to see her going down in the proverbial flames. "A wise ruler ought never to keep faith when by doing so it would be against his interests." .....Niccolo Machiavelli

[Marshall Bennett]

Hillary will say or do anything to be president !! She's a scorned , power hungry woman who'll stop at nothing . Think the eight years when Bill ruled really did a number on her brain , she wanted so badly what he had and couldn't do a damn thing about it . Adding insult to injury , he could fool around at the same time and make her really look small . If the truth were known , she probably hates his guts !!!

[DeanT]

Politicians like Hilary are like spam. Spam is sent out to 10 million people. 99.9% of the people ignore the nonsense, but 0.1% don't and they make money. It breeds more spam.

Some people will actually believe this, and the result will be her continuing to spew drivel.

[ddog]

Ah....big problem there ol' Hil.....the price of oil is determined by the world's free markets. You'd think a wanna-be President of the United States might be able to grasp simple terminology....or was she dummin' it down for the yokels out on the campaign trail?

Some interesting replies that were posted in response to the above article:

I wouldn't vote for her.
BUT, she is closer to right than anything in this thread or the "replies" you posted.
To believe that the "free-market" sets oil prices and let it go at that is dumber than anything she said.

Go back to your textbooks and look what a MAINLY in-elastic DEMAND does to a free-market".

Read the energy plan she has out(not that she could do it) and compare it to the other candidates.
Talk about dumb- those others don't get the first clue.

[JustRalph]

I wouldn't vote for her.
BUT, she is closer to right than anything in this thread or the "replies" you posted.
To believe that the "free-market" sets oil prices and let it go at that is dumber than anything she said.

Go back to your textbooks and look what a MAINLY in-elastic DEMAND does to a free-market".

Read the energy plan she has out(not that she could do it) and compare it to the other candidates.
Talk about dumb- those others don't get the first clue.

It is amazing how many people say " I wouldn't vote for her" BUT, then they go on to defend her and agree with her............???? :bang: :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

I wouldn't vote for her.
BUT, she is closer to right than anything in this thread or the "replies" you posted.
To believe that the "free-market" sets oil prices and let it go at that is dumber than anything she said.

Go back to your textbooks and look what a MAINLY in-elastic DEMAND does to a free-market".

Read the energy plan she has out(not that she could do it) and compare it to the other candidates.
Talk about dumb- those others don't get the first clue.Her words were wrong, plain and simple. That's the point.

"oil-pumping countries will lower prices" implies that if OPEC says oil should be $50 a barrel, the next day, it will be $50 a barrel. Wrongo. That's the point.

If Bush had said something like this, there would be a plethora of posts pointing out, once again, how stupid and clueless he is....

[Greyfox]

Edwards, Obama, and Clinton spoke to a "Faith Forum" today on CNN.
I found Obama boring. Edwards "yes and no." Clinton - excellent.:ThmbUp:

[Pace Cap'n]

Was watching a Will Rogers movie once...he was running for office. He and his opponent was addressing a rural crowd on a hot, dry, dusty, summer day. He promised lower taxes, better schools, etc. etc., and sat down quite pleased with himself.

His opponent rose and said, "Folks, elect me and I'll make it rain!"

Will darn near fell off the stage crying "WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT?"

[jognlope]

As far as working with the cabinet and foreign leads, Hilary would be good at that, unfortunately, have to admit, and open to others' good ideas. Don't know about Guilliani, although he has a kind of inviting personality and lots of negotiating and business experience would work well too. Obama is probably too idealistic and stubborn, would be better as a watchdog type. He's too somber, great guy, but has kind of a dead in the water way about him.

[Greyfox]

Don't ask me why, but.....

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/12/25/iowa-poll-says-clinton-breaking-away-from-the-pack/

is reporting....

WASHINGTON (CNN) – Call it an early Christmas gift for Hillary Clinton’s campaign: A new Iowa poll seems to show the New York senator with a stunning double-digit lead over her nearest rival among likely Democratic caucus-goers.

[Tom]

I would suggest the polls are 100% meaningless at this time.
So many are going so wacky, I really think they are being manipulated.

[riskman]

Hillary should be the clear choice for conservatives, and the only choice for the intelligent, given that the Democrats chose not to field a viable candidate this year. I asked an ardent conservative friend what conservatives want. “Smaller government, lower taxes, avoiding foreign entanglements, and liberty,” he said. So much for the archliberal Bush. He spends in the manner of a tour bus of womans club matrons who just got to Cancun, tangles the country everywhere like kite string in a ceiling fan, apparently has never heard of the Bill of Rights, and we’re going to pay for his games with inflation. Which is just taxation without representation.

Everything points to Hillary as the choice of conservatives. At one point during the Clinton’s sway in Washington, a minor scandal erupted because, according to sources in the great double-wide on Pennsylvania Avenue, Hillary had chased Bill around shrieking “Dickhead!” and throwing lamps at him. Now, given that conservatives hated Bill, should this not endear her to them? They never threw lamps at Bill. Again, she gets credit for forthrightness.

Further, Hillary has a better military record than the other Dem. candidates. During Viet Nam, Bush used pull to get drunk in Texas while those who couldn’t escape that useful war died, and Kerry apparently used the three-strikes-and-you’re-out rule and some phony wounds to get out of combat.

But Hillary didn’t dodge the draft, didn’t besot herself in the Air National Guard, and has nothing whatever to lie about in her military record. Her time in combat equals that of most of Bush’s administration plus that of the entire staff of National Review. She must be up there with Audie Murphy.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Greyfox]

She must be up there with Audie Murphy.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'm taking your comments as tongue in cheek re: Audie Murphy.:lol:

Audie Murphie, my cowboy hero,:

"He received every decoration for valor that this country had to offer plus 5 decorations presented to him by France and Belgium."

http://www.audiemurphy.com/welcome.htm

[equicom]

Why do we need to "develop" alternative fuel? Does ethanol not exist?

"Thousands of Brazilian motorists were left stranded today when they suddenly realized they had been tricked into believing that their cars were running on an imaginary substance known as "ethanol". Upon realizing it was just a scam, the cars simply screeched to a halt and haven't budged. Government officials are trying to bus in petroleum but the roads are blocked with cars.

"According to local donkey farmer, Rudolfo Arrena (38), it was a crisis that should have been predicted. "Ever since we fell for that big scam a few years ago that there's a difference between Paraguay and Urugay, people have been trying to fool us. And really, we should have known better than to believe that we could get fuel from a totally natural and renewable source like sugar cane... after all, if sugar was an energy source, we'd get fat from eating it, wouldn't we?"

[ddog]

Her words were wrong, plain and simple. That's the point.

"oil-pumping countries will lower prices" implies that if OPEC says oil should be $50 a barrel, the next day, it will be $50 a barrel. Wrongo. That's the point.

If Bush had said something like this, there would be a plethora of posts pointing out, once again, how stupid and clueless he is....

only in the fantasy world on this board did it imply that.
It never implied that to me.
But, if Opec says they want the price to be 60 or 70 as was stated in the article then it will head to that point.
there is a ton of evidence that points to that over DECADES.
You think the OPEC guys just have the cartel to take a trip and hob knob with each other once in a while?

So you are saying that if they did say the set price was 60.00 that would have no effect on the price per barrell even though that's all they are charging for it?
Incredible.

[ddog]

Why do we need to "develop" alternative fuel? Does ethanol not exist?

"Thousands of Brazilian motorists were left stranded today when they suddenly realized they had been tricked into believing that their cars were running on an imaginary substance known as "ethanol". Upon realizing it was just a scam, the cars simply screeched to a halt and haven't budged. Government officials are trying to bus in petroleum but the roads are blocked with cars.

"According to local donkey farmer, Rudolfo Arrena (38), it was a crisis that should have been predicted. "Ever since we fell for that big scam a few years ago that there's a difference between Paraguay and Urugay, people have been trying to fool us. And really, we should have known better than to believe that we could get fuel from a totally natural and renewable source like sugar cane... after all, if sugar was an energy source, we'd get fat from eating it, wouldn't we?"

the delivery system and the production systems for it and/or methanol need to be developed in this country.
There needs to be a gvt mandate to force all cars sold to be Flex fuel, there may need to be subsides to keep us on it when OPEC DROPS the price as they would do and have done in the past to discourage price competition.
Look at the hostory of Brazil , you will see all this was needed and more to get where they are now.
THE FREE MARKET DID NOT DO IT.

[ddog]

It is amazing how many people say " I wouldn't vote for her" BUT, then they go on to defend her and agree with her............???? :bang: :bang:

I meant exactly what i said!
hope you have recovered from your amazing insight here.

:sleeping:

[riskman]

Don't ask me why, but.....

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/12/25/iowa-poll-says-clinton-breaking-away-from-the-pack/

is reporting....

WASHINGTON (CNN) – Call it an early Christmas gift for Hillary Clinton’s campaign: A new Iowa poll seems to show the New York senator with a stunning double-digit lead over her nearest rival among likely Democratic caucus-goers.

Obama is smiling tonight.

[PaceAdvantage]

So you are saying that if they did say the set price was 60.00 that would have no effect on the price per barrell even though that's all they are charging for it?
Incredible.No, I'm not saying that. But Hillary said, ELECT ME, AND OIL-PUMPING COUNTRIES WILL LOWER THE PRICE OF OIL.

That's dead wrong. Or maybe a little bit of the ol' GWB charm has rubbed off on Hillary.

Oh yeah, she gets a pass for her faux pas, but Bush gets nailed to the cross....I remember now...

[Greyfox]

Obama is smiling tonight.

Obama is most certainly smiling tonight. He's not my pick. But from what I can see:

1. He's almost hypnotic in his cadence.
2. He's charismatic and will draw the birds from the trees.
3. He's very articulate and bright.
4. His campaign is gathering momentum.

John Edwards gave a very powerful speech this evening - actually the first that impressed me. Yet Obama, using a totally different style, held the audience more captive. Hillary just mooned it - grinning and thanking everyone.

And for the Reps that have been knocking Hillary on this board, I would say that Obama is going to be far more appealing to America at large than
"Aw Shucks Hucks."

Once again, anyone who I believe should get the job, ain't there. Dang.

[Lefty]

ddog, NO, NO, a thousand times no. We don't need any more Govt mandates.
Ethanol, from what I read, is not that efficient and the price of food goes up.
NO GOVERNMENT MANDATES.

[delayjf]

Perhaps the US should index its exports to OPEC countries to the price of their oil.

[Tom]

Price of "X" = oil price + $1.

I like it.

[PaceAdvantage]

And for the Reps that have been knocking Hillary on this board, I would say that Obama is going to be far more appealing to America at large than
"Aw Shucks Hucks." Oh really? You think so, eh? Are you an American?

The best thing that can happen to the Republicans is Hillary gets the nomination. The second best thing that can happen to the Republicans is if Obama gets the nomination. It's a no-lose situation as far as I can tell....

Are you sure Karl Rove isn't running the Democratic Party? I just heard clips of Hillary being interviewed in N.H., on the verge of tears. Are you kidding me?

You can't make this shit up....I'm starting to believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy" myself, because I don't think you could write a better script for a Republican victory in November.

But, then again, you see things differently.

[ddog]

ddog, NO, NO, a thousand times no. We don't need any more Govt mandates.
Ethanol, from what I read, is not that efficient and the price of food goes up.
NO GOVERNMENT MANDATES.


You need a better class of reading material then.
Check out Brazil , they seemed to be able to do it and get back to me.
We are not up to their technical capacity? Is that what you are saying?

As usual you are blind to anything of substance since around 1950 or so.

I didn't say only ethanol, there are other ways to do it , many other fuels to use.
You must get the companies to start building/selling all FFv or the "market" will not ever take off.
The neat part among many , is that if we mandate FFV vehicles, not the fuel, please try to see the distinction, then the world will have to follow us on that.
That sets up the market base for any type of fuel including oil to be used in the FFV fleet.

It is as close to treason as you want to come to allow this country to blindly consume oil in this fashion when the solutions are out there.

Why you would trust your future to a bunch of criminals and fanatics that just happen to be sitting on top of Allah's Black Blood(yes that's what they call it) is beyond me.

[Gittup]

Actually, Ron Paul explained it the best during the Repub debate. To paraphrase, he stated that US purchases are being made with deflated dollars.

If the dollar is worth less, the cost of oil will be more.

[JustRalph]

You need a better class of reading material then.
Check out Brazil , they seemed to be able to do it and get back to me.
We are not up to their technical capacity? Is that what you are saying?


Try this one for a better class of reading material.............

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119621238761706021.html?mod=hps_us_mostpop_viewe d

"A recent study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development concluded that biofuels "offer a cure [for oil dependence] that is worse than the disease." A National Academy of Sciences study said corn-based ethanol could strain water supplies. The American Lung Association expressed concern about a form of air pollution from burning ethanol in gasoline. Political cartoonists have taken to skewering the fuel for raising the price of food to the world's poor."

[Lefty]

ddog, the best solution for oil is more oil and I mean drilling for it everyplace possible within the confines of our own backyard.
Solutions are out there, they just aren't all that viable right now. Food is already increasing in price because of the Ethanol we make.

[skate]

It is amazing how many people say " I wouldn't vote for her" BUT, then they go on to defend her and agree with her............???? :bang: :bang:


She is the only one that i would bother to vote for, i've been looking forward to seeing her in office. those four years would have been very entertsining.:confused:

[ddog]

Try this one for a better class of reading material.............

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119621238761706021.html?mod=hps_us_mostpop_viewe d

"A recent study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development concluded that biofuels "offer a cure [for oil dependence] that is worse than the disease." A National Academy of Sciences study said corn-based ethanol could strain water supplies. The American Lung Association expressed concern about a form of air pollution from burning ethanol in gasoline. Political cartoonists have taken to skewering the fuel for raising the price of food to the world's poor."

Nothing about how Brazil has done it already , huh?

If you are really interested in learning and not just scoring go here and check it out.

WSJ, god help me, what's the message from there, maybe just a little hidden agenda to that. Also the studies that the ethanol resource hoax is from would shock the hell out of you.
Put it this way, the guru of this is a population control and climate change wacko. He thinkgs we should go to the China one child model world wide and now.

You guys are so easily manipulated.

I can only try to bring the light...
WE WILL NOT FIND OIL anywhere over here to get out of this deal.

Maybe in 20 years we will have plants that produce it if genomes fall right , but I think that's it.

http://www.setamericafree.org/index.htm
http://www.energyvictory.net/index.htm

[ddog]

ddog, the best solution for oil is more oil and I mean drilling for it everyplace possible within the confines of our own backyard.
Solutions are out there, they just aren't all that viable right now. Food is already increasing in price because of the Ethanol we make.

dittos for you , they are available , we have not had the balls to go for it.



Nothing about how Brazil has done it already , huh?

If you are really interested in learning and not just scoring go here and check it out.

WSJ, god help me, what's the message from there, maybe just a little hidden agenda to that. Also the studies that the ethanol resource hoax is from would shock the hell out of you.
Put it this way, the guru of this is a population control and climate change wacko. He thinks we should go to the China one child model world wide and now.

You guys are so easily manipulated.

I can only try to bring the light...
WE WILL NOT FIND OIL anywhere over here to get out of this deal.

Maybe in 20 years we will have plants that produce it if genomes fall right , but I think that's it.

http://www.setamericafree.org/index.htm
http://www.energyvictory.net/index.htm

As to the food price increase, you don't think that has something to do with the global demand picking up and by the way , for our sake you better hope it stays high or our trade def will go into orbit and of course the gvt subs don't help either.
those subs don't in the main go to small farmers and don't do anything to lower the price.

Plus you all miss the point, mandating FFV is a no brainer.
That way eventually you have a fleet on the road with options.
Why lock yourself into one oil option when you can spread your risk for very little cost?

if you are serious about this country and not scoring cheap points in some goofy right-left debate then I have not seen a good counter to it yet anywhere.

[Lefty]

Because Brazil has done it, doesn't mean it's the best solution. We have done it too but it's only about 60% as efficient as oil is what i've heard. There were news stories last week that food prices here have increased BECAUSE of the food we're using to make ethanol.
When the solutions become viable and cost efficient they will be marketed en masse. They will not be brght about because of govt mandates.
Checked out your links. They're both an advert for a book who sets out that the big solution is govrt mandates. Yeah, right. More govt interference into business. Snore...

[ddog]

Because Brazil has done it, doesn't mean it's the best solution. We have done it too but it's only about 60% as efficient as oil is what i've heard. There were news stories last week that food prices here have increased BECAUSE of the food we're using to make ethanol.
When the solutions become viable and cost efficient they will be marketed en masse. They will not be brght about because of govt mandates.


Wrong , check the links read a little, you will be surprised or don't your choice of course.

the very medium you are using was brought about in that fashion.
I can give you a list a hundred miles long of things we take for granted every day that were brought about by gvt mandate/funding for research.

[JustRalph]

Nothing about how Brazil has done it already , huh?

If you are really interested in learning and not just scoring go here and check it out.

WSJ, god help me, what's the message from there, maybe just a little hidden agenda to that. Also the studies that the ethanol resource hoax is from would shock the hell out of you.
Put it this way, the guru of this is a population control and climate change wacko. He thinkgs we should go to the China one child model world wide and now.

You guys are so easily manipulated.

I can only try to bring the light...
WE WILL NOT FIND OIL anywhere over here to get out of this deal.

Maybe in 20 years we will have plants that produce it if genomes fall right , but I think that's it.

http://www.setamericafree.org/index.htm
http://www.energyvictory.net/index.htm

If Ethanol is worth it, the economic forces will kick in and we will all be driving cars running on ethanol..........so far that hasn't happen. The proof is in the pudding. All the bio fuel companies that started springing up a couple years back are going broke. Their stocks have plummeted and they are shutting down. What else do you need to see?

[Lefty]

I heard that the govt has already mandated that the incandescent light bulb must be phased out by 2012 and we're replacing it with, oh my god, mercury filled bulbs. I thght mercury was bad for us and now we must fill our homes and businesses with it? When does the madness stop?

[ddog]

If Ethanol is worth it, the economic forces will kick in and we will all be driving cars running on ethanol..........so far that hasn't happen. The proof is in the pudding. All the bio fuel companies that started springing up a couple years back are going broke. Their stocks have plummeted and they are shutting down. What else do you need to see?

go to the links and read a little or not.
You don't have a clue.

[chickenhead]

at a basic level ethanol is about driving cars fueled by FOOD. :bang:

I still like electricity more.

[ddog]

I heard that the govt has already mandated that the incandescent light bulb must be phased out by 2012 and we're replacing it with, oh my god, mercury filled bulbs. I thght mercury was bad for us and now we must fill our homes and businesses with it? When does the madness stop?

that's ok Lefty.
I am sorry I gave you some actual ideas , those are very scary for you.
sorry.
You really are just what you post as, silly hot air.

[ddog]

at a basic level ethanol is about driving cars fueled by FOOD. :bang:

I still like electricity more.

you guys seem hung up on ethanol/food, in all due respect you don't have a clue it seems and are not really too interested in finding out it seems.

read the links and god forbid the book, you will not like electricty more after that I suspect.

[Lefty]

that's ok Lefty.
I am sorry I gave you some actual ideas , those are very scary for you.
sorry.
You really are just what you post as, silly hot air.
ddog, you guys so predictable. When you run out of argument you resort to the personal attack. Govt mandates is an idea?
When the alternative solutions become viable and able to be mass marketed then they will eventuate because the people want them and find them cost effective and not before.

[Lefty]

didja ever notice when libs are losing an argument they always say "you haven't got a clue." Hmmm...

[chickenhead]

you guys seem hung up on ethanol/food, in all due respect you don't have a clue it seems and are not really too interested in finding out it seems.

I don't know, the picture on the cover is a bunch of corn. So forgive me thinking he's talking about using food. You'll probably not convince me that ethanol is a more elegant technical solution....because it just isn't. More possible given our political situation (giving money to farmers is easy, building electricity production is hard), yeah, I'll buy that.

[Tom]

What hang up?
You can only grow on crop on a field at a time - will it be cheap, "buck-an-ear" priate corn for cook outs or ethanol corn at higher prices?

Fuels from plants is a marvelous idea - but we need to come up with the best, cheapest renewable plants to use, that will not compete with food. Corn is a major food source and prices are already gowing up.

No matter what plants we end up with, we can never pay farmers not to grow something - ever. It is one of the most ridiculous ideas ever.
Frankly, I think nuclear powered car is the answer. We can travel cheaply and safely! If we ever run into terroists, we are ready for them! ;)

[Lefty]

Tom, the guys are saying on another thread how great France's healthcare plan is but are not mentioning their real greatness, nuclear power! I understand they get about 70% of their energy from nuclear power.
It's time for the dems/libs to stop the fear of Nuclear power and embrace it!

[ddog]

didja ever notice when libs are losing an argument they always say "you haven't got a clue." Hmmm...


Lefty, I have not lost anything , you have never started or engaged on anything of substance.
You don't have a clue, you really don't, what I am talking about as it is not about ETHANOL , but you keep harping on that like an old lady and appear too lazy to even have a debate of consequence on much of anything, you are only wanting to spew some clever(dubious at that) line and then spew your talking points.

How about if I buy you and Chick the book and you READ it and then come back or are you so sure sans evidence that you are correct that no investigation is needed, you were born or given the only data one could ever need?


Oh, and as to your lib jibe, it carries no meaning coming from you as you are really a dimm one it appears.
All the curiosity of a cabbage patch doll.

Childish.

[ddog]

ddog, you guys so predictable. When you run out of argument you resort to the personal attack. Govt mandates is an idea?
When the alternative solutions become viable and able to be mass marketed then they will eventuate because the people want them and find them cost effective and not before.


We never started a debate, you were too lazy to engage on anything past your spew points.

You are wrong on the market, demonstrably so.
You can want until the cows come home that don't get it done.

The gvt can mandate the fleet to be able to use whatever type of fule NOW so that when the fuel becomes available there will be something to pump it into.
I make you the same offer, I will buy you the book and pay you to read it and then come back and we will try again.

Really , they don't bite or anything, you can take it.
Buck up little guy. I am sorry if I hurt your iddy feelings, i apogize.
:(

[chickenhead]

How about if I buy you and Chick the book and you READ it and then come back or are you so sure sans evidence that you are correct that no investigation is needed, you were born or given the only data one could ever need?

What am I supposed to investigate exactly? It is not like you laid out some thesis...you barely reference something, and then start handing out insults. That isn't a whole lot of information to work with.

Your main proposal is that we should have flex fuel cars vehicles mandated? OK, I don't really have much problem with that. I guess I would have to do some reasearch to see if I thought that leads ipso facto to oil independence, cause no off the top of my head it doesn't seem like it. You could mandate that cars need to run on oil and/or gypsy tears and bunny rabbit tails...

Can you answer a question? Using cropland to generate your energy will lead to higher food costs, no? And that will put a drag on things, without argue. What you're counting on are the benefits that you get from decreased oil importation and usage more than offset those costs, so you end up in the black. Right? Do you agree that using GOF electricity not generated by farmland, will give you the same benefit, but without the drag of higher food prices?

If you want to talk about this, or explain something, please do so, I like learning things. If this is all you've got, then nevermind.

[Lefty]

ddog, I have come up with more facts against libs than you can imagine and they always come bk calling me a name and telling me I have no clue.
But I will take you up on your offer. Send me the book and I WILL read it.
It IS a fact that Ethanol production in this country IS driving up food costs. That's a fact!
Anyway, shoot me a PM and i'll give you my address.

[ddog]

What am I supposed to investigate exactly? It is not like you laid out some thesis...you barely reference something, and then start handing out insults. That isn't a whole lot of information to work with.

Your main proposal is that we should have flex fuel cars vehicles mandated? OK, I don't really have much problem with that. I guess I would have to do some reasearch to see if I thought that leads ipso facto to oil independence, cause no off the top of my head it doesn't seem like it. You could mandate that cars need to run on oil and/or gypsy tears and bunny rabbit tails...

Can you answer a question? Using cropland to generate your energy will lead to higher food costs, no? And that will put a drag on things, without argue. What you're counting on are the benefits that you get from decreased oil importation and usage more than offset those costs, so you end up in the black. Right? Do you agree that using GOF electricity not generated by farmland, will give you the same benefit, but without the drag off higher food prices?

If you want to talk about this, or explain something, please do so, I like learning things. If this is all you've got, then nevermind.


Chic,

I can't layout the whole argument on this website, but yes, I think according to the BOOK Energy Victory that I linked to from the previous links and the data and studies done therein that YES, FFV needs to be mandated since we DO NOT KNOW what will be the best alternative now.

The MARKET will not and can not move even if alternatives can be used since the RISK IS TOO high for anyone even Exon if they wanted to foot the investment to get the program off the ground.
He is talking in the book about many ways to make and use methanol/ethanol and why some of the other solutions being tossed around are not what they appear to be and the whole importance of DOING something now.

The guy has some impressive energy ratio work in the book and it just makes sense to me.
The reason I posted is to see if I could get some feedback from OTHERS on the ideas in the book , not to be hoisted on some dim-wit talking points.

If no one wants to engage on that basis that's ok by me.

I realize this is a horse board , but there are some very smart people on it and I had hoped to get some feedback on where the stuff from the book was incorrect.

I think I see what is going on and I am very worried that's all.

I am with the program he has outlined in the book so far.
I don't want to just drop the amount of oil and or force ethanol on anyone, I want to get us OFF the Saudi tit someday soon.

[ddog]

ddog, I have come up with more facts against libs than you can imagine and they always come bk calling me a name and telling me I have no clue.
But I will take you up on your offer. Send me the book and I WILL read it.
It IS a fact that Ethanol production in this country IS driving up food costs. That's a fact!
Anyway, shoot me a PM and i'll give you my address.

sure I would be happy to oblige.
it's on its way.

[Tom]

Mandates are for Larry Craig.
Not anything else.
The government is not smart enough to madate anything.