Betting After The Bell [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

njcurveball

12-21-2007, 02:00 PM

I am suggesting that "they" have a means of doing this on a regular basis.

If you limited this to one track, I may agree if I watched that and saw this happen often.

The fact that we cannot get our hands around is that money comes in after the gate opens. The odds dropping on front runners is actually in line with the way people handicap these days. Many reports have proven the odds on early speed horses have declined in the last decade.

The problem I have with this whole thing is when a 45-1 takes the lead at Mountaineer and pays $98. Are they just snoozing at night? If I had the keys to this lock, I would pick my spots for decent odds horses. Many times what people see is a horse who is 5-2 in the morning line and they are dropping from 4-1 to 5-2 in the last minute as people watching the tote bet more on them because of the "value".

It is an interesting study the racing industry could very easily put some teeth into by giving Equibase the horse odds at say 10,7,5,3, and 1 minute to post.

Then database guys like myself could give you a 1,000 race study in a very short time either proving this or invalidating it.

Using just "what people see", makes for a dicey research project. Remember this is the game where handicappers claim that "Joe Bravo" never wins when they bet him and stuff like that.

Great topic and I would love to get all of this out in the open! :ThmbUp:

BillW

12-21-2007, 02:04 PM

MakinItHappen

12-21-2007, 02:18 PM

I assume a "yes" vote means that you believe that someone is betting big money after the end of the race. If I had the power to routinely bet after the start of the race, I certainly wouldn't be dumb enough to throw my money away when the leader was at the top of the lane when I could wait 30 more seconds and significantly improve my ROI.

Although, I would not exclude betting after the race, the poll is just focussing on after the bell (ie- the horses have left the gate). I believe a significant advantage could be gained by betting at some point after the bell (30 sec? 50 sec?). Obviously, the later the better, but after the finish may be asking a bit much in terms of timeliness of wager submission, at least under some scenarios I could envision.

Thank You all for your votes and opinions.

Best of Luck To Everyone!

MakinItHappen

shanta

12-21-2007, 02:26 PM

I assume a "yes" vote means that you believe that someone is betting big money after the end of the race.

I believe there are people consistently betting after 15-20 seconds of the race has run. To me that is "after the bell" Bill.

njcurveball

12-21-2007, 02:28 PM

I believe there are people consistently betting after 15-20 seconds of the race has run. To me that is "after the bell" Bill.

I think you have mentioned you play night tracks. Do you feel there is one really guilty of this or many? I will watch the ones you tell this is happening.

BillW

12-21-2007, 02:33 PM

I believe there are people consistently betting after 15-20 seconds of the race has run. To me that is "after the bell" Bill.

Yes, I agree, but "routinely" suggests to me that "somebody knows someone" and has control over the situation rather than just stumbling over a screw-up by a bumbling industry. I think the 2nd scenario probably occurs all the time. The first, I don't believe is proven by odds drops occuring as the pools settle out.

shanta

12-21-2007, 02:40 PM

I think you have mentioned you play night tracks. Do you feel there is one really guilty of this or many? I will watch the ones you tell this is happening.

To me the worst track by far is Calder. However I don't play there.

At night Delta and Sam Houston are venues to keep an eye on.

Mountaineer,Turfway and Charlestown again to me seem ok.

Jim do you think routine betting after 0-20 seconds of a race running is happening? I respect your opinion man

shanta

12-21-2007, 02:45 PM

Yes, I agree, but "routinely" suggests to me that "somebody knows someone" and has control over the situation

Absolutely YES. This is what i am talking about happening routinely Bill. If all this is explained later factually as batch betting or whatever the hell else they come up with then so be it.

Til then I honestly feel the game is being manipulated by some who are playing with an edge others do not have.

As Dave S said in another thread (Paraphrasing) "right or wrong it is some people's PERCEPTION and that is bad.

It is certainly mine and I bet and watch races 6 days a week

BillW

12-21-2007, 02:58 PM

Absolutely YES. This is what i am talking about happening routinely Bill. If all this is explained later factually as batch betting or whatever the hell else they come up with then so be it.

Til then I honestly feel the game is being manipulated by some who are playing with an edge others do not have.

As Dave S said in another thread (Paraphrasing) "right or wrong it is some people's PERCEPTION and that is bad.

It is certainly mine and I bet and watch races 6 days a week

The only counter I have to this is that there is money coming in on the whole field late (including longshots and pull-ups). Could it be a smoke screen as part of the conspiracy? possibly. Being involved in the technical world all my life (hardware/software design), I haven't seen anything yet that can't be explained by the reality of an aging paramutuel system. Am I saying that it's impossible? of course not, but I do believe it is more perception than reality.

BTW, I do agree about perception being a huge issue- I'm not arguing that it doesn't need to be fixed!

Bill

shanta

12-21-2007, 03:05 PM

Being involved in the technical world all my life (hardware/software design), I haven't seen anything yet that can't be explained by the reality of an aging paramutuel system. Am I saying that it's impossible? of course not, but I do believe it is more perception than reality.
Bill

I did not know that Bill. Then what you say IS good to hear man. I mean that.
My idea of "fair" is
1) Open betting pools with 20 minutes to post.
2) Bring the horses out and post parade them at 8-10 mtp
3) Close ALL betting at 2 minutes to post.
4) BEFORE the first horse loads FINAL odds are posted.
5) The gate pops and the race runs

None of this cancel delay bullshit.Let the batch bettors jump in at 2 minutes 5 seconds or whatever. 2 minutes the party is over.

Thanks Bill for the feedback. Merry Christmas!
Richie

BillW

12-21-2007, 03:11 PM

I did not know that Bill. Then what you say IS good to hear man. I mean that.
My idea of "fair" is
1) Open betting pools with 20 minutes to post.
2) Bring the horses out and post parade them at 8-10 mtp
3) Close ALL betting at 2 minutes to post.
4) BEFORE the first horse loads FINAL odds are posted.
5) The gate pops and the race runs

None of this cancel delay bullshit.Let the batch bettors jump in at 2 minutes 5 seconds or whatever. 2 minutes the party is over.

Thanks Bill for the feedback. Merry Christmas!
Richie

Sounds good to me, as long as there is a solid plan to handle all contingencies in the final 2 minutes - gate scratches etc.

njcurveball

12-21-2007, 03:33 PM

To me the worst track by far is Calder. However I don't play there.

At night Delta and Sam Houston are venues to keep an eye on.

I don't watch Calder, let me keep my eyes on Delta and Sam Houston for a while and I will let you know.

I watched a starter allowance race at Sam Houston last night, where a horse that figured to be 5-1 was 10-1 and went to wire to wire and paid $23.60. In my mind, those are the horses I would bet if given the chance.

The exacta paid $135 adn the Super $800 with the 3 favorites. If someone is doing this, they are either betting small amounts, are picking wrong a whole lot.

With HTR and many other pace programs, we can pretty much tell which horse will have the lead after 30 seconds of the race. And in turf racing, there seems to me no advantage at all when a 30-1 gets the lead.

The whole problem here is the reputation of racing and the fact that they have left "doors open" for those who know how to get in them. Most famous being the Fix Six.

Maybe someone here can take a screen shot at the 1 minute mark and post it. I use to be able to copy and paste from 4njbets but with the new website, it is hard to do that now.

In my experience when ACRC had live racing, there were tote delays and money got "faxed in". Funny thing was that most times, that money that came after the start was on losing horses.

Jim

DJofSD

12-21-2007, 05:18 PM

With all due respect to Richie, "fair" has nothing to do with it. How is making the betting period end before the horses are even loaded fair? All that it does is allow the tote pools to be finalized and the posted odds to become finalized when they break from the gate. It's more important to me to be able to watch the loading and the horses behind the gate. Taking that away from me is not fair to bettors like me.

There are rules and they apply to everyone. It does not make any difference to me if at the bell a bettor places a $2 bet or a $20,000 bet. In the same manner, if a bet is placed after the "cut off", $2, or $20,000, it is improper. Sure a very large bet changes the odds but if you're already on the same horse and the odds drop to the point you don't think it's fair value, what are you going to do any ways -- two seconds to post or closing the betting at two minutes to post -- the final odds are displayed and the pools are closed, you can't change your bet.

As stated elsewhere both in this thread and in other prior threads, the lack of use of even late 20th century technology is absolutely ridiculous. It borders on malfeasance. How can you justify using the current system when there are $100,000's on each race and $1,000,000's in handle daily at the larger venues?

shanta

12-21-2007, 07:04 PM

With all due respect to Richie, "fair" has nothing to do with it. How is making the betting period end before the horses are even loaded fair? All that it does is allow the tote pools to be finalized and the posted odds to become finalized when they break from the gate.

Dj
It would eliminate any of the perception of chicanery/crookedness regarding pool integrity. That's all man.

However the "that's all" might weigh pretty heavily in the minds of many many players and newcomers to the sport who were exposed on Breeders Cup day a couple years back to outright theft. That day was attended by thousands of folks who normally do NOT play regularly and we probably lost many would be players on a more frequent scale.

Would also by force regulate these offshore books pouring bets in very late who have NO regulatory people watching exactly what they do man. Forcibly bring their asses in line. Who really knows what they do?? Seriously.

ok
Richie

fmhealth

12-21-2007, 07:22 PM

I think that Helen Keller could clearly see that there is money coming in 20-30 seconds after the start. Years ago, before FS bought GP I wrote a detailed letter to the President of GP with 30 examples of just this happening. I'll never forget his terse response. "It's impossible".

Perhaps after the Fix-Six BC scandal he might have softened his stance a bit. I firmly believe that ultimately what happened a few weeks ago with the FG pools being open after the race started will prove to be a template for just this type of covert betting.

Multi-Billion dollar stock funds routinely beat the system for years. They traded for their own acct's before their investors ever had the opportunity.

With the disrespect showered upon us horsepalyers on a regular basis. This is simply another in a long litany of abuses we're expected to suffer in total & complete silence.

Not for me. I've cut back dramatically & will continue to do so until the powers that be take some affimative action. I'm not counting on anything happening in the near future. Why should it?

DJofSD

12-21-2007, 07:28 PM

Richie, are you referring to the pick 6 scandle?

DJofSD

12-21-2007, 07:31 PM

I think that Helen Keller could clearly see that there is money coming in 20-30 seconds after the start.

I'm not sure I agree that it is clear to see. There's a difference between when the bet was made and when the money is posted to the pools. Even the NYSE runs 15 to 20 minutes behind at the end of a bad trading day like in February when the panic about the Yen trade unwinding paniced the traders.

njcurveball

12-21-2007, 08:44 PM

I think that Helen Keller could clearly see that there is money coming in 20-30 seconds after the start.

What tracks does she play? :lol:

Seriously what tracks are you talking about? There are enough of us here to post the 1 minute odds and if you are right, we certainly have some good evidence to show track management and the trade publications.

I simply do not see this on a race by race basis. Tell me where to look please.

fmhealth

12-21-2007, 09:09 PM

Good one NJ! I'd start with CRC & then move on to GP. Race by race, no not really. Just enough times to make even a casual observer begin to think that someone, somewhere, is enjoying an edge not affored to most of us 'cappers.

I actually did do a comparison, as I mentioned years ago. All of us were just amazed at the odds changes, primarily on the front runner during the race. What truly captured our attention was when an 18-1 shot had a commanding lead at GP & pasted under the wire at 10-1. Some of the more experienced posters here may remember this vivid example.

Just keep an eye on the odds as each race is unfolding. Coincidence, perhaps, but in this arena where drugs are ubiquitous & cheating rampant. Wouldn't the natural extension be to outrun the outmoded technology employed at tracks today?

Maybe it's all a figment of my imagiantion. After 'capping for 49 years, I continue to believe that the deck is increasingly stacked against the player.

Simply one man's humble & probably flawed opinion. Take care!

Pace Cap'n

12-21-2007, 09:43 PM

I'm sure that many of you know this is not a new subject on this board. While searching for posts regarding a teller's ability to "wager-cancel" for several (7-15?) seconds after the start, which I am certain exists but can't readily document, I came across some old threads of interest relating to the subject at hand.

Here is a "Cliff Notes" of one such thread, circa 2002:

www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2328&page=1&pp=15&highlight=wager+cancel (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2328&page=1&pp=15&highlight=wager+cancel)

(from a CHRB official) In response to the many comments about changes to odds after the start of a race, here is what I know:
One of the stewards at each racetrack is responsible for pushing the "close pools" button when the gates open. This electronic signal instantly shuts down wagering at the racetrack and transmits a stop-betting signal to all other wagering locations.
...............................

Why does a stuard push a button? It would seem to me that the gates should be tied in to ths system. The starter open the gates and the betting is stopped with the same button.
.................................

I have posted at least twice on this board that I have seen several machines that remained open until at least the field reached the 1/2 mile pole in a 6 f race. I personnaly watched a guy punch in $50 tickets on the lead horse as fast as he could DURING the 1st 1/4 mile of the race.
..................................

(A psychic post from so.cal.fan six months prior to the fix-six) This is exactly what several of the guys I know, have been saying, that it is very possible a computer guy at the track is doing this....My question at the time, was I wondered if someone was setting the stage for a big score on Ky Derby day at Churcill Downs...
....................................

Perhaps also of interest:

CDSN closing pools with "O" minutes to post

www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3483&page=1&pp=15&highlight=wager+cancel (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3483&page=1&pp=15&highlight=wager+cancel)

MakinItHappen

12-21-2007, 09:55 PM

I meant to respond to this earlier but haven't had time. Just wanted to pass along my thoughts on some of your comments.

njcurveball - "If you limited this to one track, I may agree if I watched that and saw this happen often."

If it is indeed happening, I do not think it would be limited to one track. Could be, but I don't necessarily think so.

njcurveball - "The fact that we cannot get our hands around is that money comes in after the gate opens. The odds dropping on front runners is actually in line with the way people handicap these days. Many reports have proven the odds on early speed horses have declined in the last decade."

I acknowledge that due to the system in place odds will adjust after the horses have left the gate but why should the late money be any "smarter" or handicapped differently than the early money (ie - % wise on winners)?

njcurveball - "The problem I have with this whole thing is when a 45-1 takes the lead at Mountaineer and pays $98. Are they just snoozing at night? If I had the keys to this lock, I would pick my spots for decent odds horses. Many times what people see is a horse who is 5-2 in the morning line and they are dropping from 4-1 to 5-2 in the last minute as people watching the tote bet more on them because of the "value"."

If this is happening, I do not necessarily think it happens on every race. Just like we cannot play or pay attention to every race, whomever is doing this probably can't either. Also, perhaps they can't be "late" all the time or it would be too suspicious. The more widespread this is, the larger the # of people involved, in my opinion, and of course the bigger the problem. Another possibility is that even if you can watch a portion of the race and then "dutch" 3 or 4 of the horses you like at that point, you are still going to miss some. Likely make a tidy profit in the long run but not hit 100%. I agree with you that sometimes odds drop late on overlays and that could very well be explained by above board wagering behavior.

njcurveball - "It is an interesting study the racing industry could very easily put some teeth into by giving Equibase the horse odds at say 10,7,5,3, and 1 minute to post.

Then database guys like myself could give you a 1,000 race study in a very short time either proving this or invalidating it.

Using just "what people see", makes for a dicey research project. Remember this is the game where handicappers claim that "Joe Bravo" never wins when they bet him and stuff like that.."

Documenting the pool totals over time and comparing to results, you can make some interesting observations, but this is just not enough information to draw any firm conclusions. You need to know exactly what time the wagers originated... I am not sure this is possible today.

Given the current apparently outdated system, in order to have any integrity in the wagering aspect of the game, I think we have to go back to the countdown clock which would end prior to horses loading or someone has to step forward from the industry and prove to the players that "after the bell wagering" is impossible.

The tracks don't like the early shut-off of wagering because it reduces handle? Well it is only logical to assume that legitimate players would adjust to the wagering schedule, cheaters would no longer participate. If that is the part of the pool that we are losing, then so be it... face the reality. The tracks and the industry owes it to the players to provide a "fair game" from at least the wagering aspect or their license to accept wagering should be revoked. You can bet that if it were a "house game" and it was their money on the line, instead of just us player's money, the controls would be MUCH TIGHTER! As it is now, it appears that they are willing to throw the honest bettor under the bus for their own financial gain!

Thank You NJCurveball and Best of Luck To Us!

MakinItHappen

acorn54

12-22-2007, 01:02 AM

m001001

12-22-2007, 04:17 AM

Sometimes there is a late change of rider at the gate, e.g. if the horse throw the jockey and the jockey is hurted. When this happen, some tracks would opt for changing the rider instead of scratching the horse.

In cases like this, you can see lots of money coming in during the wait for the rider change. This is the pile of money you would have seen mid-race, if there were not a rider change. This shows the large amount of late money is usually the result of late comingling.

Even in a highly reputable racing jurisdiction like Hong Kong, where the investment in computers, network infrastructure & integrity is amongst the highest of any racing authorities, the pools are not entirely settled as the gate opens. It usually take 10-20 sec, and occasionally take as long as 45 sec.

I believe in Japan, JRA closes the pools right before the horses are loaded.

shanta

12-22-2007, 09:24 AM

if you believe that there is past posting, combined with the 15 percent or so take out, it would seem the sensible thing to do is to give up on trying to beat this game. why are you still involved in this endeavor?

Because before the bell rings I have an edge in certain races.

Consider this having much more to do than winning or losing a bet or bets.

lamboguy

12-22-2007, 10:55 AM

i used to bet the break at sulfolk downs in the early 90's. we were betting nyra racing and had about 20 seconds to make the bet. there were lots of outrages in the new york post and sulfolk had to shut the bell down early. they lost most of their simulcast business. if you could picture this they had all the sam machines at the track occupied by people betting the break. sulfolk used to let you bet $250 per ticket, and alot of times you could punch a repeat ticket. one time there was a horse in belmont with a 5 length lead, he was 60-1, he would up paying 11.00. that is when the sh-t hit the fan with nyra!

after the no calling on the break went out, there was the cancel button, as long as you had a teller to work with. i did that too for a few years but it wasn't as good as call the break, but still profitable. i remember we were doing it with quarter horses and mules at the california tracks, we never lost a race. we had every ticket punched in and canceled all of them except for the winner!

does this stuff still go on today, i am going to let you be the judge. given the shape of horseracing today, with basically the same people running the show, and a useless commision NTRA at the wheel you tell tell. the only thing that i have seen NTRA do is come up with the slogan "go baby ".......i think they should listen to their own logan and take a hike!

silk

12-22-2007, 11:24 AM

What tracks does she play? :lol:

[/Seriously what tracks are you talking about? There are enough of us here to post the 1 minute odds and if you are right, we certainly have some good evidence to show track management and the trade publications.

I simply do not see this on a race by race basis. Tell me where to look please.] This doesn't happen on a race by race basis, but the number of times it does happen should be very alarming to every horseplayer. Our bets fund the game and we should require the tracks to provide a reasonable level of wagering pool security. Here are 2 recent examples for your consideration. Nov.21 Hol race 7- TVG anchors report winners' odds fall from 33-1 to 23-1 as horses gallop out past the finish. The next day, Nov.22 GG race 4- track announcer Michael Wrona calls winner at odds of 16-1 at finish then as horses gallop out says "the winner flashes down to 10-1." These are examples of past posting at worse or unacceptable delays in our tote system at best. By the way, racing completes its Thanksgiving trifecta 3 days later with the FG past posting incident. If this series of events doesn't motivate players to raise their voices then we get what we deserve.

kenwoodallpromos

12-22-2007, 11:25 AM

"
Close Cancel Delay Update

The TRA 2020 Committee set the target date of Tuesday, September 2, 2003 for all pari-mutuel facilities to eliminate their teller cancel delay, which coincided with the Canadian Pari-Mutuel Agency's mandate for all outlets participating in wagering pools hosted by Canada to carry a zero cancel delay. Please notify Tony DeMarco at 410-392-9200 if your track's information is listed incorrectly. The following tracks are currently at zero:

Updated 11/14/2007 12:46:34 PM

All NY Tracks
All Canadian Tracks

Arlington Park
Atlantic City
Beulah Park
Birmingham Park
Blue Ribbon Downs
Calder
Canterbury
Charles Town Races
Churchill Downs
Colonial Downs
Dayton Days
Delaware County Fair
Delaware Park
Delta Downs
Dover Downs
Downs @ Albuquerque
Ellis Park
Emerald Downs
Evangeline Downs
Fair Grounds
Fair Meadows
Fairmount Park
Finger Lakes
Fonner Park
Freehold Raceway
Great Lakes Downs
Harrington Raceway
Hawthorne
Hoosier Park
Indiana Downs
Keeneland
Laurel Park
Lone Star Park
Los Alamitos
Louisiana Downs
Meadowlands
Monmouth Park
Mountaineer
Mobile Greyhound
Mt. Pleasant Meadows
Northfield Park
Northville Park
Oaklawn Park
Ocean Downs
Penn National Race Course
Philadelphia Park
Pimlico
Plainridge
Pocono Downs
Pompano Park
Prairie Meadows
Remington Park
Retama
Rosecroft Raceway
Ruidoso Downs
Sam Houston
Scioto Downs
Suffolk OTB
Sunland Park
SunRay Park
Tampa Bay Downs
The Meadows
Thistledown
Timonium
Turfway Park
Woodlands

The following tracks have cancel delays ranging from 3 - 10 seconds:

Horsemen’s Park, 10
Turf Paradise, 8
Les Bois Park, 5
Bay Meadows, 4
Del Mar, 4
Fairplex Park, 4
Golden Gate, 4
Hollywood Park, 4
North California Fairs, 4
Oak Tree, 4
Portland Meadows, 4
Santa Anita, 4
Yavapai Downs, 4
Gulfstream Park, 3"
Until the cancel delay period (in seconds) ends, pool numbers are not calculated.
Yes, you can still cancel bets at the tracks with seconds indicated.

DJofSD

12-22-2007, 11:32 AM

Nov.21 Hol race 7- TVG anchors report winners' odds fall from 33-1 to 23-1 as horses gallop out past the finish. The next day, Nov.22 GG race 4- track announcer Michael Wrona calls winner at odds of 16-1 at finish then as horses gallop out says "the winner flashes down to 10-1." These are examples of past posting at worse or unacceptable delays in our tote system at best.

Well, which one is it: past posting or just another example of the obsolete parimutual system displaying late but legitimate bets?

equicom

12-22-2007, 11:51 AM

Closing the betting 2 minutes before the start is a bad idea because it allows for a certain cheating method to be employed.

Back in the early days of the totalizator concept in Australia, they actually closed the betting 20 minutes before the start.

Here's what can happen:

You push $10,000 onto runner A, bringing the price of that one in from $7 to $4.50 and as a follow on effect, the price of runner B goes from $4 to $4.50

All the mugs jump on runner A, thinking there must be something up with that horse. Now a flood of money is coming in on Runner A and the price on Runner B is drifting up... $6... $6.25.... $7

With 2½ minutes to go, you cancel your $10,000 bet which hardly causes a ripple in the pool because of all that juicy mug money (by now well over $60,000). Throw it back on Runner B and you score a cool $35,000 (again, your bet hardly causes a ripple because of the mug money). And since there is only 2 minutes to go, even if somebody notices, it is too late to do anything but watch in horror as Runner A goes around like he's pulling a cart behind him.

Doing this properly means that you don't even have to cancel the original bet.

lamboguy

12-22-2007, 11:52 AM

hey you guys, ray charles can figure out what goes on with the bell. do the good old boys want to do something about it, or just act like they do with the rest of the sport, cheapen the standards some more and let all the good horses go to other fine places like europe and japan!

BillW

12-22-2007, 12:00 PM

Tom

12-22-2007, 12:10 PM

I have always said that once placed, no wager should ever be alolwed to be cancelled. Period.

DJofSD

12-22-2007, 12:12 PM

This isn't cheating?

I don't think so. That's not to say I would want to be involved in a race where that takes place, but, show me the rules where is says some one can not do what is described.

equicom

12-22-2007, 12:17 PM

This isn't cheating :confused:

It is if you're connected with either horse... it is equivalent to "insider trading"... you have information that other people do not have that you use to your advantage by manipulating prices. So if you know, for example, that Runner A is not going to start, then you have a huge advantage.

By causing the odds on Runner B to drift out artificially, and many people who would have bet on that horse to not bet on it, you get yourself a much better price than you otherwise would have even without Runner A in the field.

And if you live in a country where there are bookmakers and you got a fixed price on runner B after pushing the $10,000 onto the no-hoper on the tote, then you really are guaranteed to clean up big time.

It's not cheating if you're just a punter... then it's smart. But if you're an owner or trainer, or even a track veterinarian, you are not playing fair to do this although it is well within your power. The only variable is if the public takes the bait or not.

Jens

12-22-2007, 12:20 PM

DJofSD

12-22-2007, 12:34 PM

It is if you're connected with either horse... it is equivalent to "insider trading"... you have information that other people do not have that you use to your advantage by manipulating prices. So if you know, for example, that Runner A is not going to start, then you have a huge advantage.

Regarding "insider trading", the US has laws that the SEC enforces. I'm aware of certain rules regarding betting by the horse's connections, but, as outlined above, what rule has been broken?

As to the asymmmetry of information and the manipulation of prices, having information that others do not is a fact of life, what you do with that information and under what circumstances is where it gets into valid v. cheating. Just because you don't have that information or don't like what others are able to do with the information does not necessarily mean they are cheating.

Make a law, set a rule then when it is broken, catch the scofflaws.

shanta

12-22-2007, 01:14 PM

Ken,

That Close Cancel Delay list you posted includes both FG and KEE on the zero second list. This thread was started following a thread about past posting of a wager made recently at KEE on a FG race. I'd have to say that the list is therefore meaningless. As for the attitude of the "people in charge"....Grrrrrrrrr

Exactly Jens

Please check out post 33 in this thread
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=459959#post459959

This from the man who actually did what tracks say can't be done ok? Seems to be very credible as both Ernie D and Andy S have commented bout him.

All this has to do with integrity,honesty and security. Not winning or losing a bet. Whether it's cheating (documented and reported by "Silk") or antiquated tote systems this crap has to be addressed/fixed sooner rather than later in my opinion and I am willing to do something beside post here to facilitate things.

I am bundling up that other thread and this one and sending to NTRA and any one else I can think of.

Here is a link to contact info for both the Ntra and Breeder's Cup people.
http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=other&style=red&id=4400

Anyone else willing to do something and make some noise man?

Richie

BillW

12-22-2007, 02:12 PM

you have information that other people do not have that you use to your advantage by manipulating prices.

So you think that being a good handicapper is cheating just because you get beat? This thread is about cheating the rules of the game not being suckered into making a bad bet. The only "insider" rules that I am aware of is connections betting against themselves.

JustRalph

12-22-2007, 04:49 PM

I have always said that once placed, no wager should ever be alolwed to be cancelled. Period.

Brisbet/Winticket/Twinspires agrees with you............

BillW

12-22-2007, 05:02 PM

Brisbet/Winticket/Twinspires agrees with you............

That's typically the case on-line, I believe. Although I did have AmericaTAB cancel a wager via phone once - it was a dupe caused by a bug in their site software.

Bill

MakinItHappen

12-22-2007, 05:25 PM

That's typically the case on-line, I believe. Although I did have AmericaTAB cancel a wager via phone once - it was a dupe caused by a bug in their site software.

The quantity and $ limit of allowable cancellations is limited based upon your membership level. Lowest level is allowed 5 cancels per week up to $500 per wager. Highest level is 20 cancels a week up to $3k per wager.

I rarely have utilized this, but it is a nice feature to have available at your fingertips, if needed.

Best of Luck Today Everyone!

MakinItHappen

BillW

12-22-2007, 05:31 PM

The quantity and $ limit of allowable cancellations is limited based upon your membership level. Lowest level is allowed 5 cancels per week up to $500 per wager. Highest level is 20 cancels a week up to $3k per wager.

I rarely have utilized this, but it is a nice feature to have available at your fingertips, if needed.

Best of Luck Today Everyone!

MakinItHappen

Yes I forgot about that, but I think you are talking about Youbet, aren't you MakinItHappen? I don't think what used to be AmericaTAB/now Betpad or PTC have routine cancels. Maybe others do???

MakinItHappen

12-22-2007, 05:55 PM

Yes I forgot about that, but I think you are talking about Youbet, aren't you MakinItHappen? I don't think what used to be AmericaTAB/now Betpad or PTC have routine cancels. Maybe others do???

Yes BillW, I am referring to YouBet.

Best of Luck To You Today!

MakinItHappen

betovernetcapper

12-22-2007, 09:41 PM

Do you believe that somehow someway somebody somewhere is betting after the bell?
.
For thousands of years, men looked at the night sky and wondered if we would ever walk on the moon. The debate on this took various forms, man was not meant to fly-the moons made of green cheese and even if we can we shouldn't because we would then meet Ming the Merciless. On July 20th, 1969, the debate ended

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/AS11-40-5875.jpg

.
Thanks to Mike Maloney's experience, on Nov 25th, this debate should also over. We now know for sure that this happens. Remaining questions are

1.) how often

2.) how high on the food chain

3.) how is it done.

Premier Turf Club

12-22-2007, 09:45 PM

Yes I forgot about that, but I think you are talking about Youbet, aren't you MakinItHappen? I don't think what used to be AmericaTAB/now Betpad or PTC have routine cancels. Maybe others do???

We spec'd a cancel feature. Amtote wouldn't let us have it. The feature exists on our internet gateway but it is disabled.

TEJAS KIDD

12-22-2007, 09:59 PM

I have always said that once placed, no wager should ever be alolwed to be cancelled. Period.

If that happened, then most serious players would wait untill the last possible minute to make their wagers. THe odds changing would be worse.

TEJAS KIDD

12-22-2007, 10:01 PM

TEJAS KIDD

12-22-2007, 10:16 PM

Yes it does happen.
I've actually done it. About 15 years ago I happened to notice that the machines were closing about 15 seconds after the break. I camped out by the machines and bet on quarter horses. WOrked out ok but I lost as many races as I won. It only happened a few times.
Back in my LOS AL days, we used to wager and then reinsert the tickets and bring up the cancel screen. If the horse we wagered on broke slow, then we'd press the cancel button. Im sure that still happens today.

As far as SAM HOUSTON is concerned. If you look at the tote board at Sam Houston, you'll notice that there is no money in the pools on track. The early odds are reflective of the on-track money (which isnt very much). I was there last week and I think my handle was about 20% of their overall live handle. When I am at home, I wager very late and I, myself, could turn a 3-1 shot into the 8-5 favorite as the horses leave the gate.

betovernetcapper

12-22-2007, 10:34 PM

How do you know that is really the moon?
Someone told you it was the moon. You weren't there.

That is not the moon-that is a photo or representation of the moon. If your asking how we know what we know, I'd suggest reading Heidegger's Being and Time (Sein und Zeit).

Imriledup

12-23-2007, 11:59 AM

Tell me if you think this is possible.

If some steward or button-person left the pools open for bettors to take advantage of, that would mean that everyone has the same access if you are paying attention. Is it possible that some steward and some large bettor have a 'timing play' where the pools are shut on time and then about 17 seconds (as an example) into the race, the steward opens the betting for 1 split second and in that one second, with watches synchronized, the big bettor gets in a bet and then the pools get immediately closed again?

If Valponi didn't win the Classic a bunch of years ago, the Drexel guys would still be doing 'their thing' and laughing all the way to the bank while racing execs would still be telling fans like you and me that 'its ok, its all on the up and up'

I don't think that these tracks WANT to change anything because the only thing that happens if they close the pools on time is that the one or two large bettors who have access to bet after the start won't be betting as much or won' t be betting at all. 'fixing' this doesn't actually make the tracks money. It doesn't make them one red cent and actually COSTS them money in lower handle. They don't care who wins because they get their cut, all they care about is how much money is bet....they don't care who bets it or when they bet it as long as they bet it.

DJofSD

12-23-2007, 12:05 PM

Good question -- can the pools be reopened after they've been closed. It yet again raises the issue of the use (or lack thereof) of modern IT equipment, processes and procedures. In a good environment audit trails are produced and protected. In short, could they survive a SOX type audit. Don't know if that's the case now -- I would guess we have to the the word of the person controlling that button. :mad:

lamboguy

12-23-2007, 01:10 PM

the answer is when they loose their paychecks!

between drugs, kickbacks, payoffs and past-posting and track net, you can see why racing in the good old USA has lost its apeal.

do you think the public needs more tracknet?

i would love to bet that handles at the premier meets are down this winter from last year, meaning gulfstream and santa anita!

TEJAS KIDD

12-23-2007, 04:47 PM

Good question -- can the pools be reopened after they've been closed. It. :mad:

NO

lamboguy

12-23-2007, 05:36 PM

he is the guy that caught the culprits of the breeders cup scandle. he was so good at what he did, they decided not to pay him what he was worth. so i think he has a big job in japan or some place that truly cares about horse racing. i spoke to him on numerous occasions about past posting, he says it definately exists, he tried to change things but got caught with deaf ears. his reward was to take a paycut for nyra!

i just wonder, how long will it take before the powers that are figure out the people that bet the races are the ones that count the most!

my guess is it will take some time

point given

12-23-2007, 05:44 PM

Is it possible that when there is a large super, that nobody has hit, the track opens it, and has someone punch in the correct sequence and pocket the entire pool for the track instead of a measly 25% or so ? Somone mentioned this to me the other day and I doubted it highly, but with all the craziness now , I wouldn't put it past them. Since the p6 crew had access, why couldn't a track have access to it own pool, and directed to a bagman. There was lots of skimming in Vegas, and rumored at Gulfstream too. So who knows ?

lamboguy

12-23-2007, 06:37 PM

that happened years ago, i saw ********** do it at the ******** dog track. he would make a $50 win ticket after the race with his own tote machine in his office. i haven't heard of it going on today, but who knows, these guys are ingeneous, the figure out how to take the most amount of money away from the most amount of people in the shortest amount of time!

my tip for the year 2008, buy gold and then buy more gold or silver or platinum. george bush for one more full year, and who ever follows will be even more stupid and worse, either side of the isle.

Jens

12-23-2007, 06:53 PM

My first reaction after hearing about the infamous fix six scandal was sh*t, how could THEY (the people in charge of our now cyber-racing world) allow such a gaping hole in the system. My second reaction was sh*t, now THEY know how to do it for themselves. What reason do I have to believe THEY don't "skim" a bit here and there for their own gain? The display of honesty, ethics, integrity and concern THEY have shown for us customers to date? As far as getting caught allowing past posting which was recently brought out in the open, THEY apparantly expect that by assuring us it was a fluke and not to worry about it that the problem is solved. Back to business as usual. :bang: Bah, Humbug!!

Oh, by the way. Merry Christmas everyone.:)

lamboguy

12-23-2007, 06:59 PM

great post jens, merry christmas to all!

Pace Cap'n

12-23-2007, 09:22 PM

Did anyone happen to notice this story out of Kansas City this past week?

www.kansascity.com/business/story/407750.html (http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/407750.html)

Former Woodlands general manager James Gartland on Monday pleaded no contest to four misdemeanor theft charges stemming from unlawful bets at the track that cost him his job earlier this year.

...case that alleged on four occasions in 2005 he had improperly “enlisted” the same track patron to place bets ranging from $280 to $500 in a special Tri-Super pari-mutuel pool without putting any money down.

...Gartland said he had solicited the patron’s wagers to bring up the Tri-Super wagering pool to the $5,000 minimum required for the betting to proceed.

...Gartland disclosed that the patron involved won one of the four bets and later tipped him $200...

Now, this tri-super was for the greyhound side of Woodlands racing, but who knows what went on while the ponies were running.

Here we have proof positive that malfeasance in the front office is not unheard of.

PaceAdvantage

12-23-2007, 09:32 PM

Just to clarify, this example did not involve betting after the bell....

TEJAS KIDD

12-23-2007, 09:42 PM

Did anyone happen to notice this story out of Kansas City this past week?

www.kansascity.com/business/story/407750.html (http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/407750.html)

Now, this tri-super was for the greyhound side of Woodlands racing, but who knows what went on while the ponies were running.

Here we have proof positive that malfeasance in the front office is not unheard of.

I dont see anything wrong with what he did. The track was going have to put up the difference between the actual pool and the guaranteed pool. From what it looks like, he used the tracks money to put in wagers to cover the difference and make sure the guarantee was met. Sounds like good business sense. He didnt wager after the start of the race.

Pace Cap'n

12-24-2007, 09:03 AM

I dont see anything wrong with what he did. The track was going have to put up the difference between the actual pool and the guaranteed pool. From what it looks like, he used the tracks money to put in wagers to cover the difference and make sure the guarantee was met. Sounds like good business sense. He didnt wager after the start of the race.

Well, for starters, what he did is ILLEGAL. That is why he was prosecuted.

Not much good can come from a situation whereby a wager can be made without any cash changing hands. He did not use the tracks money, he didn't even use ANY money.

Legitimate winners who put up THEIR OWN CASH on one occaision had to split their winnings with someone who put up zero cash. Does that sound fair?

Interesting that this thread started out to disparage the idea of betting after the bell, and several horse owners show up to brag about how they have been able to past-post. And apparently see nothing wrong with it. Whether the Woodlands' wager was made prior to or after the post, we have no idea.

Bruddah

12-24-2007, 09:20 AM

"There is nothing wrong, at all, at all, at all, at all, at all. Sounds like a broken record to me.

Don't you wish you could see the same urgency and rush to spend millions to fix these problems, as you see to fix the track surface problems.

H_LL, until Turfway missed a few days with a frozen track two years ago, no one even heard of a track surface problem. Now, everybodies got a problem. :rolleyes: :confused:

celticfan

12-24-2007, 10:34 AM

betovernetcapper

12-24-2007, 12:33 PM

Interesting that this thread started out to disparage the idea of betting after the bell, and several horse owners show up to brag about how they have been able to past-post. And apparently see nothing wrong with it.

Viewing this from the positive side, after their ADW positions in Ohio and Arz , I didn't think the horsemen (as a group ) were smart enough to engage in this activity. I impressed in much the same way as viewing a monkey on the Discovery Channel, use a stick as a primitive tool to reach a banana,
I want to clap my hands and say "Bravo Monkey!!! " or in this case I suppose it would be Bravo Horsemen!!!.
.
Seriously, I think the kind of past posting operation we saw at Tracknet on November 25th, is beyond the reach of most horsemen. This is more sophisticated than using a stick to get a banana.

silk

12-24-2007, 01:05 PM

Exactly Jens

Please check out post 33 in this thread
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=459959#post459959

This from the man who actually did what tracks say can't be done ok? Seems to be very credible as both Ernie D and Andy S have commented bout him.

[/All this has to do with integrity,honesty and security. Not winning or losing a bet. Whether it's cheating (documented and reported by "Silk") or antiquated tote systems this crap has to be addressed/fixed sooner rather than later in my opinion and I am willing to do something beside post here to facilitate things.

I am bundling up that other thread and this one and sending to NTRA and any one else I can think of.

Here is a link to contact info for both the Ntra and Breeder's Cup people.
http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=other&style=red&id=4400

Anyone else willing to do something and make some noise man? ]

Richie Shanta, I would suggest including the company which takes your bets on your contact list. Everyone who profits from taking our wagers should hear the players wagering pool security concerns loudly and often. Thanks for taking the time to speak up for all of us.

TEJAS KIDD

12-24-2007, 02:16 PM

Well, for starters, what he did is ILLEGAL. That is why he was prosecuted.

Not much good can come from a situation whereby a wager can be made without any cash changing hands. He did not use the tracks money, he didn't even use ANY money.

Legitimate winners who put up THEIR OWN CASH on one occaision had to split their winnings with someone who put up zero cash. Does that sound fair?

Interesting that this thread started out to disparage the idea of betting after the bell, and several horse owners show up to brag about how they have been able to past-post. And apparently see nothing wrong with it. Whether the Woodlands' wager was made prior to or after the post, we have no idea.

I guess it was irresponsible of me to post without actually reading the article.
What he did was illegal (there certainly is more to it than what was posted) However, he did nothing wrong when it comes to the wagering pools. He wrote off the money invested and made the track pay for it. The money was wagered into the pools and the pools reflected it, so noone was hurt. The fact that he hit one of the wagers should not matter. He didnt wager for free, plus he still had to pick the winners, it's nothing like the FIX SIX SCANDAL.
As far as what I posted about PAST POSTING. I was not bragging. I am not proud of the fact that I was a desperate and degenerate gambler many years ago and that I took advantage of that situation. I was making the point and agreeing with the point that past posting does happen. Given the opportunity again, I would not even consider it. I'd be the first one on the phone letting someone know about it. As much as I play into the pools, I wouldnt want anyone tampering with my income.

Dave Schwartz

12-24-2007, 05:14 PM

Interesting comment attached to that Kansas City article...

Comments
Well Jim you were warned about your connections with those like Jeff T. and your buddy Kent. You should have listened. Although in you defense they have allowed mutual clerks to wager all long and have done nothing about it except say that it brings the handle up. So who is really to blame? It's about time that someone took control back from the employees.

Posted by: frustrated employee

njcurveball

12-24-2007, 10:28 PM

My first reply after lurking for several years but I had to post about Philly park and the Trifecta payoffs,many times I have noticed payoffs in the 2-300$ range that should payoff at 2,000$ or more now I know that the takeout their is very high but consistant payoffs that smell of tickets being punched after the results are known is very obvious.

Thanks Celticfan

Well I do not find as much conspiracy as you mention. The high takeout is a killer but it does not cut payoffs by 70 -80% as you mention. Listed below are the avg payoffs by field size for 2007 at Philadelphia Park.

field #races Avg payoff
__ ____ _____
6 288 147.73
7 446 252.22
8 335 418.51
9 253 709.33
10 215 997.60
11 124 1266.70
12 104 1687.30

I compared this to a track like Mountaineer which rarely gets mentioned as one where there is "betting after the bell"

field #races Avg payoff
__ ____ _____
7 270 256.55
8 409 421.71
9 479 759.59
10 806 945.13
11 2 820.20

Notice that with 7 horses, the average is around $250, with 8 horses, the average goes to about $420, with 9 horses over $700 and with 10 horses over $900.

I do not disagree that there have been incidents of illegal behavior in the past and perhaps will be again. I do not see this as happening on a "routine" basis as over 80% of this board seems to think.

Jim

Bruddah

12-25-2007, 05:36 PM

I guess it was irresponsible of me to post without actually reading the article.
What he did was illegal (there certainly is more to it than what was posted) However, he did nothing wrong when it comes to the wagering pools. He wrote off the money invested and made the track pay for it. The money was wagered into the pools and the pools reflected it, so noone was hurt. The fact that he hit one of the wagers should not matter. He didnt wager for free, plus he still had to pick the winners, it's nothing like the FIX SIX SCANDAL.
As far as what I posted about PAST POSTING. I was not bragging. I am not proud of the fact that I was a desperate and degenerate gambler many years ago and that I took advantage of that situation. I was making the point and agreeing with the point that past posting does happen. Given the opportunity again, I would not even consider it. I'd be the first one on the phone letting someone know about it. As much as I play into the pools, I wouldnt want anyone tampering with my income.

However, I disagree with the above vehemently. If the House (track) had made up the difference in the pool (legitimately) and not bought (friends) competing tickets with imaginary funds, the payoff would have been larger, to those legitimately betting the Super.

Seems to me, this is theft by deception at the least. Also, the Woodlands track could claim embezzlement of funds. (JMHO)

Pell Mell

12-25-2007, 06:22 PM

Well I do not find as much conspiracy as you mention. The high takeout is a killer but it does not cut payoffs by 70 -80% as you mention. Listed below are the avg payoffs by field size for 2007 at Philadelphia Park.

field #races Avg payoff
__ ____ _____
6 288 147.73
7 446 252.22
8 335 418.51
9 253 709.33
10 215 997.60
11 124 1266.70
12 104 1687.30

I compared this to a track like Mountaineer which rarely gets mentioned as one where there is "betting after the bell"

field #races Avg payoff
__ ____ _____
7 270 256.55
8 409 421.71
9 479 759.59
10 806 945.13
11 2 820.20

Notice that with 7 horses, the average is around $250, with 8 horses, the average goes to about $420, with 9 horses over $700 and with 10 horses over $900.

I do not disagree that there have been incidents of illegal behavior in the past and perhaps will be again. I do not see this as happening on a "routine" basis as over 80% of this board seems to think.

Jim

Can you explain why Pinnacle would not take super bets at PP? I bet supers with them for a long time and PP was the only place they wouldn't take super bets. :bang:

Imriledup

12-25-2007, 08:02 PM

Someone ought to take out a full page ad in the DRF on KY Derby day that goes something like this:

Dear Racing Fans,

It has come to our attention that there may be a select few people who are betting races after they start. Also, what has come to our attention is that some mutuel tellers at either racetracks, OTB's or simulcast centers are somehow involved with aiding and abetting criminal behavior. We will NOT tolerate this any longer and anyone found to have been helping perpetrate these crimes will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

It has also come to our attention that some of these same mutuel tellers have been 'cancelling' tickets for large players. A 'cancel button' is provided to tellers in case of emergency, but we have strong proof that some tellers are 'abusing' this privilege. We know who you are and our investigation is almost complete. We have names and proof that you were cancelling large tickets and receiving 'kickbacks' from these players. If you come forward now and tell your story and name names, you will be dealt with in a much nicer manner than you would be dealt with after the investigation is over.

We have hired teams of investigators to monitor every ticket that was cancelled at every racetrack, OTB and simulcast parlor in the calendar year 2007. You know who you are and we know who you are. What you are doing is illegal and you WILL not only be arrested and charged with a crime, but you could have the FBI knocking at your door. Would you like to be led away in handcuffs in front of your family and friends? I didn't think so. Come forward now and tell your story.

As far as betting ANY horserace after it starts, we also have names. If you are a horseplayer who has been doing this on a regular basis, we are very close to apprehending you. You will be arrested at your home or place of business by May 15, 2008. We know who you are and we are coming to get you.

Love,
The Racing Industry:lol:

kenwoodallpromos

12-26-2007, 07:37 AM

From T.Times, by the Keeneland racing secretary:
"The teller who continued to take wagers after realizing that the race had started did not violate Keeneland policy because ****current rules only require tellers to stop taking wagers after the pools close.

“That’s why we wrote the letter, saying you know, we’re going to look at our policy. The law reads that ****it’s when the windows close, and the window wasn’t locked,” Beasley said."
Help me- the way I read this is, it was not a crime and betting was still allowed because the pools do not close legally until ALL tellers feel like closing and locking their windows (I assume not AFTER the race is over). It is only wrong if the tellers take bets through a locked window?

Pace Cap'n

12-26-2007, 08:41 AM

Ken, after reading that about a dozen times, I think he meant to say "pools" rather than "windows". Such is the ignorance of mgmt.

Does anyone need a job?

Underwood noted that the incident further suggests the need for independent monitoring of pools, like the Wagering Transmission Protocol real-time software offered by Racing Commissioners International. Without such software, time-consuming review of the pools is required to determine problems in the pools.

She added that the Authority would begin interviewing applicants for the new position of pari-mutuel investigator, which will oversee such issues in the commonwealth.

Thoroughbred Times story... (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/December/25/Investigations-continue-into-Fair-Grounds-wagering.aspx)
(http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/December/25/Investigations-continue-into-Fair-Grounds-wagering.aspx)

kenwoodallpromos

12-26-2007, 01:41 PM

Ken, after reading that about a dozen times, I think he meant to say "pools" rather than "windows". Such is the ignorance of mgmt.

Does anyone need a job?

Thoroughbred Times story... (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/December/25/Investigations-continue-into-Fair-Grounds-wagering.aspx)
(http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/December/25/Investigations-continue-into-Fair-Grounds-wagering.aspx)
Either way, the only thing that stops tellers is their own conscience, not automation.

kenwoodallpromos

12-26-2007, 01:52 PM

From the KY rules:
"A pari-mutuel ticket shall not be sold after the totalizator has been locked and an association shall not be responsible for ticket sales entered into but not completed by issuance of a ticket before the totalizator has been locked."
The above is the only mention of closing of pools, and says a teller can sell tickets as long as he wants if the totalizer is not locked regardless of how long after the race started. In other words, IMO, sales are done when the pools are locked closed; but is the tote is not locked, the sales stop when the teller closes and locks the window. There is no rules that says tickets cannot be sold after the race starts.

DJofSD

12-26-2007, 07:02 PM

So, what we have here, is a partial form of after hours trading?

Teach

12-27-2007, 06:30 AM

I believe it's difficult to bet after the bell. I used to work as a mutuel clerk at a racetrack here in MA. One of my sad refrains to the bettors who came up to my window was: "It's gone!" The machine I was operating had locked. The bet was shut out.

In hindsight (I don't punch tickets anymore), I wish I had a dollar for every bettor who walked away from the windows with scowls on their faces because they didn't get in their bet. There was nothing I could do. I had pretty fast fingers, but I couldn't beat the buzzer. In some cases, all I had needed to do was to hit the "enter" key and I would have punched out a ticket. I often took some consolation by thinking, "Maybe I saved them money." Then again.

Having said all this, I remember reading a few years ago that an automated machine had gone haywire at Suffolk Downs here in MA; it had allowed bettors to make bets after the race had gone off. I believe it was quickly discovered. But from what I read the track lost thousands. Talk about having your own personal ATM machine.

I would think that unless there is some malfunction, e.g. Suffolk Downs, or
a massive collusion at the highest levels of racetrack administration, it would be near impossible to "past post."

The only thing that comes closest can be found not at the thoroughbreds, nor at "the puppies," both use either a starting gate or starting box, but at the trotters. The harness races, you ask. Well, in a manner of speaking.

Let my explain. In harness racing (most of you know this), there is a starter's car with wings that horses follow behind. Once the car and the array of horses behind the wings reach the top of the stretch there is rarely a recall (a reformation).

So, what's the point? There are races, particularly trotting races (as opposed to pacers) where one, two or more horses will "break" before ever reaching the starting point (this is even more true with younger trotters; it gets contagious). THe scenario: THe harness race is about to go off. You're at an automated tote machine. Above you, or visibly close by is a track TV monitor. You're watching the horses come up to the
gate (some are breaking). They ain't gonna hit the board. You've narrowed the field. You've gained an edge. On the automated machine in front of you, a couple quick finger strokes lets you box three or four horses
(the even-money chalk may have just broken). You beat the buzzer with your last key stroke. A smile crosses your face. You've past-posted, in a manner of speaking.