on WIND and how it affects runners

[Robert Fischer]

Food for thought

Lets say the the track is exactly SOUTHWEST-NORTHEAST.

TODAYS WIND: 25MPH! from the southwest.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7185/churchillpg6.jpg
Chuchill Downs
At first thought this would aid the "quitters". :confused: It's at their back in the stretch, and should help them finish and not quit today. Right?...
However, these weak late-pace horses generally run on the lead (uncovered) and fairly fast for the early fractions. So on the backstretch these horses are running Sub 48second halfs INTO the wind.

Wouldn't such a wind benefit the horse with tactical speed , maybe saves ground on the backstretch behind horses, and makes a "wind aided" late move in the stretch?? ;)

really not a huge deal to me unless the wind is blowing a gale, but wind is now being incorporated in some performance figs.

:ThmbUp:?:ThmbDown:?

[phatbastard]

theory has it that closers would thrive on that condition....this has been a major influence in harness racing for years..those covered up generally rally strongly while those cutting the fractions or uncovered wither through the lane

[Tom Barrister]

My understanding is that a headwind in the stretch helps the front-runners, and a tailwind helps the closers.

[Robert Fischer]

So we seem to be coming to a consensus , even if the "votes" are few so far...

I think it is fair to understand the physics behind the idea.
We have these performance figures incorporating wind speed, and it is a fair question to ask if that wind factor is being applied universally or if running styles are being considered?
In a way it is a very subjective science.

[Cratos]

Food for thought

Lets say the the track is exactly SOUTHWEST-NORTHEAST.

TODAYS WIND: 25MPH! from the southwest.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7185/churchillpg6.jpg
Chuchill Downs
At first thought this would aid the "quitters". :confused: It's at their back in the stretch, and should help them finish and not quit today. Right?...
However, these weak late-pace horses generally run on the lead (uncovered) and fairly fast for the early fractions. So on the backstretch these horses are running Sub 48second halfs INTO the wind.

Wouldn't such a wind benefit the horse with tactical speed , maybe saves ground on the backstretch behind horses, and makes a "wind aided" late move in the stretch?? ;)

really not a huge deal to me unless the wind is blowing a gale, but wind is now being incorporated in some performance figs.

:ThmbUp:?:ThmbDown:?
Robert, you have raised an interesting subject, the effect of wind on the horse during a race. I started looking at this effect several years ago and have incorporated some of the effects into my handicapping. Using Google Earth for the geographical orientation of the racetrack and getting the wind values at a race by race increment during the race day from http://www.wunderground.com/ you can ascertain some very good information if the right postulations are made.

Wind effect on the horse starts around 12 mph and during the race an uncovered horse experiences generally three wind effects: a head wind which if blowing directly will be a “knifing effect” with some retardation on the horse’s sped. This is not a simple calculation because the horse size (mass) makes a difference as we know from Newton's second law of motion. A tail wind will provide some acceleration and again applying Newton’s law there will be a change in speed.

However the most devastating wind effect come from a cross wind because the broad side of the horse become a “sail.” Under this condition the uncovered horse is being pushed side ways as it attempt to move forward, the larger the horse, the larger the “sail.”

[TEJAS KIDD]

Sat Dec 15th at HOU there was a strong headwind down the backstretch and tailwind in the stretch, Closers did terrible and the outside speed horses dominated with the exception of the 7th race. Races 1/4/5/6/7/8 all dirt sprints.
The outside post won races 1/4/6/8 with the outside speed horse winning races 1/4/8 . Race 5 was won by the outside speed horse from post 5. The only non wire to wire winners were in races 6/7 where the winner stalked 3w in the 6th and the winner stalked inside in the 7th. This is the opposite of what has been stated here about WINDS affecting outcomes.
Another interesting thing was how the fields were scattered in the lane
Race 1 winner by 3, runner up by 7
Race 4 Winner by 10, runner up by 2
Race 5 winner by 2, runner up by 4 1/2
Race 6 Winner by 1 1/2, runner up by 6 3/4
Race 7 Winner by 3 1/2, runnerup by 3 1/4, show by 3 1/2
Race 8 Winner by 7 1/4 runnerup by 1 1/4.

No photos that night. It was like the wind just pushed the fields apart in the stretch. of course, every winner was a favorite or 2nd choice. Just looks like the wind enhanced their victories. I'm curious to see how these winners come back and how the beaten rail speeds and deep closers return. There is one running back this week. He was a rail speed dueler in the 6th race, named OPEN UP ONE. He's in on Saturday in the 8th race and draws the outside post.

[john del riccio]

Being around AQU & BEL when the wind is strong I can say with certainty that when the wind is in the faces of the horses as they run in the FASTEST part of the race, which is on the backside in one turn races, speed will do poorly and closers will have an edge. The opposite is true when the wind is with them going down the backside, early speed will have the edge.

Two turn races are alot harder to quantify the effects of wind.

John

[Tom]

The hardest part, I would think, is getting the actual wind speed and direction during each race. Saying "winds out of the SW at 15 mph" would be not the case all day. What is race one is was 10 mph, and race two it was 20? And then died out for race three.

[cj]

The hardest part, I would think, is getting the actual wind speed and direction during each race. Saying "winds out of the SW at 15 mph" would be not the case all day. What is race one is was 10 mph, and race two it was 20? And then died out for race three.

...or was gusting during a race.

[njcurveball]

There is a cheap and simple solution with todays technology.

The track needs to buy two weather stations and place one on the backstretch and one at the finish line.

Then tie in their feed to the video. They do a similar thing with the time. Technology is there already, weather stations go for $100. Total expense for the track around $200 to $250.

[john del riccio]

There is a cheap and simple solution with todays technology.

The track needs to buy two weather stations and place one on the backstretch and one at the finish line.

Then tie in their feed to the video. They do a similar thing with the time. Technology is there already, weather stations go for $100. Total expense for the track around $200 to $250.

....and how much woul dit cost to get each horses exact fractional & finishing time along with their position & lengths behind at each call, I'm sure Trackus is 90% of the solution.

John

PS I find that I break more races out during the winter on the east coast; primarily because the wind can have a bizarre effect on both fractional & final times.

[Cratos]

The hardest part, I would think, is getting the actual wind speed and direction during each race. Saying "winds out of the SW at 15 mph" would be not the case all day. What is race one is was 10 mph, and race two it was 20? And then died out for race three.

You are absolutely correct

[Cratos]

Sat Dec 15th at HOU there was a strong headwind down the backstretch and tailwind in the stretch, Closers did terrible and the outside speed horses dominated with the exception of the 7th race. Races 1/4/5/6/7/8 all dirt sprints.


The horses should have had tough day running because according to the historical wind charts for December 15 the wind speed between 5p and 8p at Sam Houston was ranging from 15mph to 22mph with gusts up to 25mph. I don’t know the track’s geographical orientation, but those wind speeds would have had a strong impact on the horses’ performances depending on the wind direction.

[TEJAS KIDD]

If you watch the replays at Sam Houston, you can see the flags blowing as the horses go down the backstretch, I think they appear at about the Budweiser sign or the 1/2 mile pole (the budweiser sign is on the backstretch fence, easier to see than the 1/2 mile pole). The wind was clearly blowing into the faces of the horses down the backstretch.

[Robert Fischer]

Tejas Kidd

Very interesting.

I don't know the finer points of Sam Houston. From the example I am curious about all the factors including possible "dead rail" and/or an overall "tiring" track, or even a card that happened to come up heavy on good outside speed ?

It would certainly appear from the example that it favored a certain style of horses (outside speed) which is opposite of what would be expected.

[Greyfox]

If your going to consider horse, position, and style, then you'd better take into account the rider. IMO jockey Ilio Puglisi in Southern California is the equivalent of a human parachute when he rides. The steed gets the same drag as the training athlete below.



http://www.prosportuk.com/images/prodimages/3/football%20training%20aids/14.jpg

[Cratos]

If you watch the replays at Sam Houston, you can see the flags blowing as the horses go down the backstretch, I think they appear at about the Budweiser sign or the 1/2 mile pole (the budweiser sign is on the backstretch fence, easier to see than the 1/2 mile pole). The wind was clearly blowing into the faces of the horses down the backstretch.


Tejas Kidd,

I copied the Sam Huston track layout from Google Earth and you are absolutely correct about the wind direction at Sam Huston on December 15 because according to the historical wind charts, the wind at Sam Huston was coming from the Northwest which meant a headwind on the backstretch and a tailwind on the stretch as you stated.

Although frontrunners and horses near the front were winning, their final times from the DRF charts appear to me to be rather pedestrian times, but I don’t know Sam Huston well enough to know if that observation is correct.

However, because of speed retardation from the wind force and the “knifing effect,” closers typically don’t do well in a head wind scenario.