What a disgrace

[harnesslover]

http://www.local6.com/spotlight/14853575/detail.html

Even Christmas is not sacred anymore



"A not-so merry message on a Christmas T-shirt hit the shelves of a local store just in time for the holidays in Florida.

The T-Shirt says, "Santa Claus Hates You," and it shows the usually jolly man giving a not-so jolly gesture."

[lilmegahertz]

You think that is bad? We had to have one of our orderfillers to remove his Nazi earrings which he donned just for Hanukah.......

[shanta]

You think that is bad? We had to have one of our orderfillers to remove his Nazi earrings which he donned just for Hanukah.......

Where I live if he pulled that shit in public couple of the local boys would rip it from his ear (after asking politely first of course ;) )

[lilmegahertz]

That thought came to mind.....

[Lefty]

Christmas has been under attack by the secularists for quite a while.

[hcap]

Christmas has been under attack by the secularists for quite a while.Ah, Billo speaks.

Lefty try changing the channel occasionally Tends to break the stupor :jump:

[shanta]

Ah, Billo speaks.

Lefty try changing the channel occasionally Tends to break the stupor :jump:

With all due respect as I don't get involved in the off topic political stuff here

How can one come to any other conclusion than what Lefty posted?? It is right in front of all of us in our daily lives man.

From Tv ads to schools to decorating outdoors for the Christmas season USING the words "happy holidays" in lieu of "Merry Christmas" has become something of a politically correct thing started by the liberals and the bleeding hearts in this country Hcap.

Fwiw this coming from registered Republican who thinks the sitting president is the worst we have seen in a long long time and who's hurt this country by his policies for decades to come.

Merry Christmas :)

[hcap]

The "secularists" fighting a war against Christmas is a straw man.
Created by Fox news' Bill Oreilly, John Gibson, and other so-called "journalists" to marginalize those who believe in separation of church and state. None of my fellow "bleeding hearts" want to do away with Christmas.

Fwiw this coming from a reluctant democrat who also thinks the sitting president is the worst we have seen in a long long time and who's hurt this country by his policies for decades to come.

[lsbets]

I have to agree with Hcap on this one. THe "War on Christmas" was largely made up and/or exagerated by John Gibson to sell a book and the bandwagon was jumped on by O'Reilly to get ratings. I think its pretty funny now when O'Reilly says companies caved under the pressure he put on them regarding the "war".

fwiw - this comes from someone not registered in either party, but who votes rep about 80% of the time as I see them as the lesser of two evils. However, I've voted straight Dem in my local elections for the past few years because I do not like total one party dominance - it is not good for our democracy.

[Lefty]

Ah, Billo speaks.

Lefty try changing the channel occasionally Tends to break the stupor :jump:
Why? He's right.

[hcap]

Lefty, sorry but this blatantly silly. Fox and friends do it stir up ratings and sell silly books.

[Lefty]

h'cap, looks like you're wrong for the millionth time. I exaggerate. Maybe it's only a hundred thousand.

[Snag]

Fwiw this coming from a reluctant democrat who also thinks the sitting president is the worst we have seen in a long long time and who's hurt this country by his policies for decades to come.

hcap, Fwiw, you are worth nothing. Trying to hijack a thread about Christmas and turning into a "I hate Bush" thread is pretty low even for you.

[hcap]

hcap, Fwiw, you are worth nothing. Trying to hijack a thread about Christmas and turning into a "I hate Bush" thread is pretty low even for you.Take a look at what shanta said one post before mine, post # 3

Maybe I am worth nothing, but a bit more than your reading, writing and comprehension skills.

Feel free to apologize.

[OTM Al]

Once upon a time the Christians hijacked one of the most important festivals in the year, the winter solstice. They manufactured a birth story for he who they had decided was the messiah so he would have proper kingly attributes and replaced the solstice with it. Back then they were the "libs". Comes around, goes around I guess, though it seems that the real winners in the end were the merchants.

[Lefty]

h'cap, really, it says nothing in the Constitution about separation of Church and State. Just more liberal b.s. Last year, right here in Vegas, thekids went on winter vacation. Not Christmas vacation. Prob happened in lots of other states. This year one big corp put out a catalogue talking about Holiday morning. Not Christmas morning, but Holiday morning. And what the hell do you think sparked this thread?

[Lefty]

OTM, you just besmirched over 80% of the country. You can't besmirch Jews or Muslims or even atheists but Christians are fair game, just like the days of Rome, eh?

[hcap]

though it seems that the real winners in the end were the merchants.The real perpetrators of transforming Christmas into as much a commercial enterprise as a religious holiday. A silent war, so stealthy Fox news never even noticed.

Where are O'reilly and Gibson when you need 'em?

[harnesslover]

Fwiw this coming from a reluctant democrat who also thinks the sitting president is the worst we have seen in a long long time and who's hurt this country by his policies for decades to come.

Seriously, do you have mental problems? Do you hide in the weeds of the whitehouse, waiting for the right shot?

I have never seen anyone so obsessed with not missing ONE chance to insult the president. Can you spare one thread without the Bush bashing? Grow the f**k up.

[harnesslover]

Once upon a time the Christians hijacked one of the most important festivals in the year, the winter solstice. They manufactured a birth story for he who they had decided was the messiah so he would have proper kingly attributes and replaced the solstice with it. Back then they were the "libs". Comes around, goes around I guess, though it seems that the real winners in the end were the merchants.

Holy crap.. JUst wait, Hcap will be blasting you for smearing one religion.. At least he SHOULD be, since he has stated that is CLEARLY wrong to do.

Let's sit back and see what happens

[hcap]

Seriously, do you have mental problems? Do you hide in the weeds of the whitehouse, waiting for the right shot?

I have never seen anyone so obsessed with not missing ONE chance to insult the president. Can you spare one thread without the Bush bashing? Grow the f**k up.See my post # 14


Post 14Originally Posted by Snag
hcap, Fwiw, you are worth nothing. Trying to hijack a thread about Christmas and turning into a "I hate Bush" thread is pretty low even for you.

I replied to Snag.......

Take a look at what shanta said one post before mine, post # 3

Maybe I am worth nothing, but a bit more than your reading, writing and comprehension skills.

Feel free to apologize.STFU

[King Ritchie]

IGNORANT

[lsbets]

It appears that in addition to BDS, which Hcap probably suffers from, a new term might be warranted - HDS - Hcap Derangement Syndrome. Did anyone besides me see Shanta's post which Hcap's Bush response was clearly a lighthearted response to? Seriously, this thread has gotten silly.

[shanta]

Did anyone besides me see Shanta's post which Hcap's Bush response was clearly a lighthearted response to?


I certainly took it as light hearted. :)

[OTM Al]

OTM, you just besmirched over 80% of the country. You can't besmirch Jews or Muslims or even atheists but Christians are fair game, just like the days of Rome, eh?


Really? Guess I just besmirched myself then. I also see the truth means nothing to you. Jesus was not born on December 25th. There was no census in the year of his birth (while I can believe there would be no existing record of a common man's death, I don't think everyone missed a census). This was a creation so that they could claim his birth in the proper place and be of a proper family so that he could be claimed messiah according to prophecy. This was a very common device in ancient times when a ruler came from humble beginnings.

We are at the time of the ancient festival of the winter solstice. Many of its symbols carry forward such as the evergreen tree, holly and mistletoe. The church was once very accommodating so as to being people into the faith (very liberal....so accomodating in fact that they actually made Virgil, who died fully 20 years before the birth of Jesus a saint because of the fact he was the most important writer of the times and he wrote a poem that was later misconstrued to prophesy the birth of Jesus) They knew that the people would never give up certain festivals, so they simply coopted them and put on their own twists. To have placed the birth of the savior at this time simply tells you the importance of this day to ancient peoples.

Or perhaps you are taking issue with my statement that in the end it was the merchants that won? I don't think I even have to defend that.

[Tom]

I think Christmas is robust enough to feature not only Jesus, but Santa Claus and Rudolph as well. It was always understood just what Christmas really was, and children grew up with Santa and eventually learned what the manger stuff was all about. I don't know of any harmed by the fun side of the holiday.

We even grew up not only thinking Hanukkah was somehow part of Christmas, but many actually celebrated it as part the "holiday season." I know we had a menorah as part of our decorations. In school, we had only one Jewish boy in our class, and instead of prohibiting either holiday, we celebrated Christmas, but we learned about his, and he told us stories about it as part of our learning. No one was offended on either side. We even studied how Christmas, or it's equivalent, was observed by many religions and countries. Gosh, I bet that would give some Supreme Court justice a coronary today. Imagine, learning more important than political correctness.

[Lefty]

OTM, yes you did. I KNOW Jesus was not born on Dec 25, a lot of historians think he might have been born in August or someting. Who knows?
So they picked a date? So what? Christians certainly didn't try to stop anyone from doing their winter solice but clear secularists out to erase any signs of Christmas. When schools start calling Christmas vacation a winter vacation and a store refers to Christmas morning as Holiday morning. Well, wake up and see the signs.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM Al:

Do you really think we believe Christ was born on Dec. 25th? Besides the Pagan winter festival is not the only pagan festivals incorporated into Christian festivals there are a few others. Ever hear of All Hollow eve?

Yes, we do understand history and truth.

[OTM Al]

First off, schools, at least the public ones, are run by the government. Calling the break Christmas Break is imposing religion. A no no for the gov't. I believe my public school way back when already just called it holiday recess, so nothing all that new. I for one and glad that our founding fathers were proud enough of their faith to cite it and yet respectful enough to realize that true democracy should be religion neutral, imposing no laws, nor adopting a state religion, for such is the way to theocracy.

As for stores, they are driven purely by capitalism. Therefore, if they are having success changing Christmas to Holiday, then they certainly are not having their bottom lines affected, so it must be that very few people are actually upset by these changes, as you seem to be, and at least as many more have responded positively to them.

And you surely jest if you think Christians have never done anything to prevent people celebrating in pre-Christian era ways. People were tortured and killed as heretics for far less once upon a time.

SMTW, I know you have a strong faith and I don't want you to take any of this as an attempt to insult it. It is not. I know for me my faith is just as strong knowing now what is true and what is not in the Bible. The message is unchanged even when you strip away the magic show. And it is a good message. I don't need to have "Christmas" or "Easter" or any other religious terminology stamped all over everything to feel good about myself or to have faith. Times change and peoples do as well. So the word "Christmas" isn't stamped everywhere. I would be weak indeed to have needed that in the first place, and foolish to take it as an afront were it not there.

[Tom]

I don't even want to hear what you think about apple pie and the girl next door!:eek:

[OTM Al]

Goes good with ice cream. The apple pie does too :)

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM Al:

Hey, nothing you said insults me. I probably phrased my response incorrectly. Just trying to clarify not only was the winter festival (Roman pagans celebrated the feast for their sun god) that Christianity adopted other pagan feasts as religious holidays. I guess I responded to the remarks about ignoring truth and factual history.

I agree with you having Christmas day is not necessary to celebrate the faith. The first Christians did not celebrate the birth of Christ, as they were more focused on the present and the future Kingdom of Heaven. As you said it is foolish to hinge your faith on religious terminology.

But I point out that true history shows that celebrating the birth of Christ was important to the American culture, that through our laws it was made an official government holiday.

[OTM Al]

Good. Though Christmas has only become culturally important in the US in just the past century. New Year's Day was once the day of celebration and gift giving. Christmas reached further elevation under FDR when the season was used to stimulate buying to help the economy recover. Holidays generally only started appearing in the last few centuries when the level of affluence allowed them, not from reasons of religion. Bob Cratchett was expected at work on Christmas Day, not because Scrooge was a skinflint, but because it was a regular working day to cite a famed piece from literature.

Looking about on this reminded me of another great controversy about Christmas, or rather Xmas. People thought it an affront to be taking out "Christ" and replacing with "X". This one is most ironic, because the "X" (chi) is simply the first letter in "Christ" when spelled in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, and had from the beginnings been used to represent his name. In other words, his name was not being removed but rather being spelled more traditionally.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM Al:

Yes and to paraphrase from your cited piece of literature, he celebrated Christmas every day. That is the way it should be.

[Indulto]

I think Christmas is robust enough to feature not only Jesus, but Santa Claus and Rudolph as well. It was always understood just what Christmas really was, and children grew up with Santa and eventually learned what the manger stuff was all about. I don't know of any harmed by the fun side of the holiday.

We even grew up not only thinking Hanukkah was somehow part of Christmas, but many actually celebrated it as part the "holiday season." I know we had a menorah as part of our decorations. In school, we had only one Jewish boy in our class, and instead of prohibiting either holiday, we celebrated Christmas, but we learned about his, and he told us stories about it as part of our learning. No one was offended on either side. We even studied how Christmas, or it's equivalent, was observed by many religions and countries. Gosh, I bet that would give some Supreme Court justice a coronary today. Imagine, learning more important than political correctness.Tom,
Enjoyable post. You reminded me of my own upstate NY upbringing where we had elementary school "Christmas Plays" that always included a Hannukkah portion. Even then it felt odd that while both Christian and Jewish kids were allowed in the "choir" to sing Christmas carols, they were segregated in the "historical" scenes.

I remember one product of a mixed marriage who complained about not being able to participate in the journey to Bethlehem portion despite the fact that Joseph and Mary were Jews. He even offered to play the donkey which no one considered a stretch. :D

I was disappointed there were no such holiday performances in my offspring's LAUSD elementary school.:(

[DeanT]

Good post Tom. Fun to read. I too remember when things were different and we "let things slide a bit".

I went to a Jewish friends house once during the Hanukkah season. I got invited. It was fun. Everyone wished me a happy Hanukkah. I thought it was cool actually. I never once corrected anyone. They were just being friendly.

A very good friend of mine is moslem. I grew up with him since he moved here in grade one. His parents had a real respect for all cultures and brought him up well. He is often wished a Merry Christmas. I laugh, but he says "and Merry Christmas to you" back.

He was our class president in high school, in a small town in Canada. Daily he would have to say the Lord's Prayer during morning announcements. I said once, "isnt it weird saying the Lord's prayer in school?". He told me "would you not be honoured if you were in my home country and you got voted to lead the school in their prayer, being a Christian?".

When I thought about it I said "yeah, I would".

Things seem to get muddled in our country now, based on things we worked out nicely by ourselves, by just being good, decent, respectful people. I think that worries a lot of us.

[ljb]

OTM, yes you did. I KNOW Jesus was not born on Dec 25, a lot of historians think he might have been born in August or someting. Who knows?
So they picked a date? So what? Christians certainly didn't try to stop anyone from doing their winter solice but clear secularists out to erase any signs of Christmas. When schools start calling Christmas vacation a winter vacation and a store refers to Christmas morning as Holiday morning. Well, wake up and see the signs.
Lefty,
These words are so last year. Didn't o'liely come out with a book this year ?

[ljb]

Good post Tom. Fun to read. I too remember when things were different and we "let things slide a bit".


Things seem to get muddled in our country now, based on things we worked out nicely by ourselves, by just being good, decent, respectful people. I think that worries a lot of us.
Yes those were the good old days. And then came the hate mongers and liars spewing their venom across the land.

[skate]

Take a look at what shanta said one post before mine, post # 3

Maybe I am worth nothing, but a bit more than your reading, writing and comprehension skills.

Feel free to apologize.


check out your own skills, post #11. typical toxicity W/tyrannicality.


Merry Christmas:)

[rastajenk]

Yes those were the good old days. And then came the hate mongers and liars spewing their venom across the land.

Moveon? :eek:

[Lefty]

Calling Christmas break is imposing religion? Laughing my ass off at that one.
Recognizing a religion is not the same as imposing it. BTW, it's that same govt that made CHRISTMAS a FEDERAL holiday!

[RaceBookJoe]

OTM, yes you did. I KNOW Jesus was not born on Dec 25, a lot of historians think he might have been born in August or someting. Who knows?
So they picked a date? So what? Christians certainly didn't try to stop anyone from doing their winter solice but clear secularists out to erase any signs of Christmas. When schools start calling Christmas vacation a winter vacation and a store refers to Christmas morning as Holiday morning. Well, wake up and see the signs.

You are right....Jesus was not born on Dec 25. Most theologians place his birth in the spring. Scripture mentions shepards watching their flock at night, and this is when the ewes bore their young. Actually in 200 AD theologians placed the birth of Jesus on May 20. Even though that may or may not be correct, it didnt matter to the early Christians because they emphasized the Epiphany on Jan 6, marking Christ's baptism. In AD 385 Pope Julius I declared Dec 25th as the day to celebrate Christ's birth. He chose that date partly to challenge the pagan celebration of the Roman god Saturnalia, which was characterized by social disorder and immorality. By the way Lefty....Merry Christmas !!!

[Tom]

Calling Christmas break is imposing religion? Laughing my ass off at that one.
Recognizing a religion is not the same as imposing it. BTW, it's that same govt that made CHRISTMAS a FEDERAL holiday!

So anyone offended can stay in school and write reports or go to work for staright time. Problem solved.

[OTM Al]

Not quite Joe, but pretty close. Saturnalia was not the god, but the celebration of the god Saturn. I find your description very filtered at best though. The church would do that to discredit the old while suplanting with their own traditions. Saturnalia was a time of great celebration and a favorite holiday of the Romans. Schools were closed, special holiday markets were opened, banquets were served, everyone was allowed to gamble on the games (this was officially looked down upon the rest of the year) and for the duration of the holiday societal roles were reversed as servant became master and master servant (a tradition still carried on in those nations that have Boxing Day). It originally went only a day, but as time went on, it was extended for up to a week and the people resisted the efforts of the emperors to reduce it because they enjoyed it so much. However, it was earlier in the month of December (which even then was the Latin word for this month, 10th month, as the new year once began in March) and did not coincide with Christmas ever. What did coincide though was the winter solstice, which occured on December 25th on the Julian calendar. This was a much more solemn day to the ancients.

The idea of Saturnalia actually continued long after Rome had lost its power. It was well known in the middle ages and later as Misrule and as mentioned, vestages continue today.

[harnesslover]

See my post # 14


Post 14STFU

Wow, classy..

[Lefty]

Racebookjoe, Merry Christmas to you too and everyone on this great board.

[RaceBookJoe]

Not quite Joe, but pretty close. Saturnalia was not the god, but the celebration of the god Saturn. I find your description very filtered at best though. The church would do that to discredit the old while suplanting with their own traditions. Saturnalia was a time of great celebration and a favorite holiday of the Romans. Schools were closed, special holiday markets were opened, banquets were served, everyone was allowed to gamble on the games (this was officially looked down upon the rest of the year) and for the duration of the holiday societal roles were reversed as servant became master and master servant (a tradition still carried on in those nations that have Boxing Day). It originally went only a day, but as time went on, it was extended for up to a week and the people resisted the efforts of the emperors to reduce it because they enjoyed it so much. However, it was earlier in the month of December (which even then was the Latin word for this month, 10th month, as the new year once began in March) and did not coincide with Christmas ever. What did coincide though was the winter solstice, which occured on December 25th on the Julian calendar. This was a much more solemn day to the ancients.

The idea of Saturnalia actually continued long after Rome had lost its power. It was well known in the middle ages and later as Misrule and as mentioned, vestages continue today.

OTM....you are right, but thats why my post said partly due to Saturnalia....not the whole or only reason. More of a fact that it was a pagan celebration, not the actual date. Correct again on the month thing too.....July and August were added for Julius Augustus I believe but may be wrong on that point( SEPTember for 7th, OCTober for 8th also). On a more humorous side, since Saturnalia was the only time gambling was allowed, Belmont had a short meet haha. To you I say, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays since I dont know what you prefer...but either way I hope this time is filled with peace for you and everyone on the board.

[OTM Al]

And a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and any other good wishes of the season to you too. You are right about July (for Caius Julius Caesar) and August (for Augustus Caesar). They were originally named Quintilis and Sextilis...obviously 5th and 6th month. So now the million dollar question, if the year began with March "Martius" (named for Mars, the god of war and so named likely as it was the beginning of the campaign season) on the vernal equinox to be exact, what happened with January and February (Iaunarius et Februarius) They originally did not exist. The winter was "monthless". They were "created" by Numa (app 700 BCE in legend), the second Roman king who was renown for the codifying of religious law (and likely didn't really exist as a true historical person, but perhaps was an amalgamation).

BTW, don't you find it an irony given this discussion that many of our months are named for Roman gods and our days for the Teutonic gods?

[Indulto]

... BTW, don't you find it an irony given this discussion that many of our months are named for Roman gods and our days for the Teutonic gods?Not as much as men being named as gods by other men.

Happy holiday season, OA. May you be as interesting and readable in 2008 as you've been in 2007. :ThmbUp:

[OTM Al]

You too Indulto.

There was one of the early emperors, after the end of the Julian/Claudian line that on his deathbed made made one of the more humourous and sarcastic remarks on just that idea. When one of his attendants asked him how he was feeling, he was said to reply "I feel that I am becoming a god." Would that I could make such a crack with my last breath I would feel my life complete :)

[Indulto]

You too Indulto.

There was one of the early emperors, after the end of the Julian/Claudian line that on his deathbed made made one of the more humourous and sarcastic remarks on just that idea. When one of his attendants asked him how he was feeling, he was said to reply "I feel that I am becoming a god." Would that I could make such a crack with my last breath I would feel my life complete :)Good one, OA.

In this era of increasing dementia, degeneracy, and dogmatic discourse, I'll settle for knowing that I'm actually going, with no Freudian slips showing or HSA account blowing.

[dav4463]

Here is one link that talks about Christmas being a pagan holiday.

http://www.zenzibar.com/articles/christmas.asp

[Lefty]

Does it matter what symbols have been added and where they come from? The thing is over 80% of the country chooses to celebrate Dec 25 as the arbitrary date that has been chosen for the birth of Christ because we don't know the exact date. Yet secular progressives want to thwart this act.
Now some little towni n MA has chosen to limit their Christmas lights with some bogus argument they are saving the environment from global warming and to call the lights holiday lights and not Christmas lights. It doesn't matter to the idiots in charge that over 80% of the townspeople want the traditional display of Christmas lights.

[Tom]

The vast majority of Americans celebrate CHRISTMAS. Perhaps this poll data is not to the liking of some. Funny how the will of the people only matters in some cases.

[OTM Al]

Does it matter what symbols have been added and where they come from?

The whole point of this discussion is no it does not matter because things have changed and evolved over time and will continue to do so. You clearly like and approve of a certain representation of things for this season done in a certain way. I'm sure there were some Roman traditionalists way back when that bemoaned the replacements of their traditions with the Christian trappings. There is nothing wrong with either point of view. Its what you grew up with or what you feel most comfortable with. Recognize though that things weren't always that way and won't always be that way it the public world. So there is a trend to remove the word "Christmas" from advertising. So what? Why should this change your life and beliefs? It should not and if it did, shame on you. Continue wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, send Christmas cards, give Christmas gifts, listen to Christmas music or whatever else you do to celebrate the season. There's no one telling you not to do that, nor ever should there be. If Christmas is important to you, celebrate it for all to see.

[Lefty]

OTM, guess you don't understand this is just one part of the culture war and why should we stand bk and let the tail wag the dog. You can, I won't.

[OTM Al]

Culture war???? Wow.......the war on drugs will be won before that one I'm afraid. The "tradition" you are fighting to preserve is simply the culmination of thousands of years of change. I'm sorry that the fact that things do, have and always will change frightens you. I still hope you have a happy Christmas though.

[Snag]

Culture war???? Wow.......the war on drugs will be won before that one I'm afraid. The "tradition" you are fighting to preserve is simply the culmination of thousands of years of change. I'm sorry that the fact that things do, have and always will change frightens you. I still hope you have a happy Christmas though.

OTM, when a major department store instructs its employees to NOT say Merry Christmas, that is not just change. That's trying to take away a small part of a freedom we have enjoyed for years. Even I can see that.

[Lefty]

Culture war???? Wow.......the war on drugs will be won before that one I'm afraid. The "tradition" you are fighting to preserve is simply the culmination of thousands of years of change. I'm sorry that the fact that things do, have and always will change frightens you. I still hope you have a happy Christmas though.
Yes, the change from capitalism to socialism and eventually to a godless communist country scares the hell out of me and so do apathetic people like you. I'm for progress and not all change is progress. Grab a clue on the way out.

[ddog]

OTM, when a major department store instructs its employees to NOT say Merry Christmas, that is not just change. That's trying to take away a small part of a freedom we have enjoyed for years. Even I can see that.

When you work FOR a company they can tell you how to act in their place of business.

The remedy is to get another job if you are so offended by it.

people will not shop there if they are offended by it.

You would pass a law to mandate what should be said?

[ddog]

Yes, the change from capitalism to socialism and eventually to a godless communist country scares the hell out of me and so do apathetic people like you. I'm for progress and not all change is progress. Grab a clue on the way out.


Take a pill would you?

Happy "giodless commie" Holidays to you and yours.

[Lefty]

Hey dog, that's right, BUT as customers we can go elsewhere.

[Lefty]

Take a pill would you?

Happy "giodless commie" Holidays to you and yours.
You ARE a pill and very hard to take. MErry Christmas

[ljb]

Yes, the change from capitalism to socialism and eventually to a godless communist country scares the hell out of me and so do apathetic people like you. I'm for progress and not all change is progress. Grab a clue on the way out.
Lefty,
You are sounding more and more like this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTGFxV1NqJQ

[Snag]

When you work FOR a company they can tell you how to act in their place of business.
The remedy is to get another job if you are so offended by it.
people will not shop there if they are offended by it.

You would pass a law to mandate what should be said?

No need for another law. We already have a law that allows us to say what we want. My point, and I guess one you missed, is that some people want to limit or change what can be said in order to further their own agenda.

[OTM Al]

Lefty, you are exactly right. If you don't like it, you as a customer can go elsewhere and if there are enough likeminded people, then the store will change its policy. There is no reason to believe that the only reason they made any policy in the first place was anything but to make more people want to buy stuff from them anyway.

Here's some examples of real and imagined Christmas/Holiday policies and in some cases changes were made in response to consumers and in some cases the claims of "anti-Christian" behavior was well overblown

http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/target.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/walmart.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/bestbuy.asp

I don't know if one of these is what started the thread as I don't see the starter's comments by choice, a lovely freedom this board offers.

As noted as well, if you are an employee, your job is to do what the boss says. There is no freedom there. Freedom is the fact that if you don't like it, you can quit.

[ddog]

No need for another law. We already have a law that allows us to say what we want. My point, and I guess one you missed, is that some people want to limit or change what can be said in order to further their own agenda.


I didn't miss it because it is not relevant.
You don't get to make YOUR point at your EMPLOYERS place of business.

Simple as that.

[ddog]

You ARE a pill and very hard to take. MErry Christmas



and to you as well.

[Lefty]

I didn't miss it because it is not relevant.
You don't get to make YOUR point at your EMPLOYERS place of business.

Simple as that.
Right, but the customers do. And we are. And some of these stores have reversed their policies because of customer complaints. We must stay forever vigilant.

[Show Me the Wire]

When you work FOR a company they can tell you how to act in their place of business.

The remedy is to get another job if you are so offended by it.

people will not shop there if they are offended by it.

You would pass a law to mandate what should be said?

Good advice. Too bad those devout Muslim woman that wouldn't served pork products to Wal-mart customers didn't follow your advice. Wal-mart the employer had to appease them.

All we desire is consistency.

[ddog]

Right, but the customers do. And we are. And some of these stores have reversed their policies because of customer complaints. We must stay forever vigilant.


I totally agree with the right to not shop where you do not wish to shop.
I also totally agree with the business man's right to laydown policies at his place of business.

They are both part of the friction that is the result of a still free land.
It's as it should be.

[ddog]

Good advice. Too bad those devout Muslim woman that wouldn't served pork products to Wal-mart customers didn't follow your advice. Wal-mart the employer had to appease them.

All we desire is consistency.


Have not seen the details of this.
But, if the job entails duties that the employee can not perform then that employer, once again, has the right to determine a work around if it's in the firms best interests , where did the HAD to appease part come in?

[Show Me the Wire]

OOps, it was target and not Wal-mart in Minnesota. My apologizes. Transferring the employees avoided the possible filing of lawsuits alleging religious discrimination.

You see none of the offended devout quit but they persisted in their refusal to handle pork products. So the employer, target appeased them to avoid further conflicts and costly lawsuits.

My position is you made a valid point to reasonable people, if the job offends you the remedy is to get another job. These devout people chose to keep their jobs,while continuing refusing to handle pork, instead of quiting or even asking for reassignment from the offensive duty of selling pork..

[Tom]

If handling pork is a job requirement, then whatever the reason you won't or can't handle it should be the end of the story.

Would they hire a life guard whose religion forbade him from swimming?

[ddog]

OOps, it was target and not Wal-mart in Minnesota. My apologizes. Transferring the employees avoided the possible filing of lawsuits alleging religious discrimination.

You see none of the offended devout quit but they persisted in their refusal to handle pork products. So the employer, target appeased them to avoid further conflicts and costly lawsuits.

My position is you made a valid point to reasonable people, if the job offends you the remedy is to get another job. These devout people chose to keep their jobs,while continuing refusing to handle pork, instead of quiting or even asking for reassignment from the offensive duty of selling pork..

I would agree that the transfer is the "quiet" workaround.
I will have to go check out the story later.

We do "things" all the time to get around or immunize ourself from the threat of suits.
That's not exactly on point to this thread but it is a fact of life in business these days.
Lots of people look for a claim and there you go.

Without any knowledge on this specific case, I would lean toward the "see you in court sucker".

[Show Me the Wire]

The reference to court action was made by a reasonable man. A devout Muslim that quit his job, a different store years ago, instead of continuing to report to work and steadfastly refusing to handle pork.

Don't know if this is the same individual but he is quoted by AP, "Jama Omar, a clerk at Otanga Grocery in Minneapolis, told the AP his store caters mostly to East African immigrants and doesn’t carry pork products, so it’s not an issue for him personally. But Omar also said Muslims shouldn’t expect special treatment.

“If it causes a big problem for your employer, they have to make the decision that’s best for them,” Omar said. “It’s not something to go on strike or file a civil suit. Go somewhere else that will accept your beliefs. There’s millions of jobs.”

[ddog]

Well, I found the story on the Target/pork deal.

I have to say in reading it , I was not troubled by what was reported.
In that case it seems that the store mgr had a simple workaround and she seemed to claim it caused no hardship to that operation.

It kind of reminds me of the Walgreen pharmicist story a couple of years back that had the docs refuisng to sell birth control/morning after pills since it violated their beliefs.

I think if they had filed on Target, the case would have been thrown out.
I am all for anyone having access to courts here for this type of thing.
I think we can deal with that.

I have seen where employment discrimination type cases involving Muslims/Arabs have gone way up since 2001.
That is kind of interesting in itself.
The "success" rate seemd to be around 30 percent or so for the plaintiff which is not out of line as I recall for these kind of case.

Not a lawyer, i could need more research on this point.

[Tom]

Back on topic - Christmas is taking a beating these days!

http://www.metbuat.info/e/english/Santa+Claus+Shot+Down+In+Rio_56538.html

[Show Me the Wire]

Sorry Tom, I feel the urge to clarify a point.

ddog:

I too am not troubled by what was reported. I was responding to your salient point about quiting if you are offended by what your employer tells you to do.

When you work FOR a company they can tell you how to act in their place of business.

The remedy is to get another job if you are so offended by it.

people will not shop there if they are offended by it.

You would pass a law to mandate what should be said?


It seems we expect some people to quit or accept the responsibilities of the job, so as not to put the burden on the employer. I believe it was unfair of these target employees to put the burden on the employer to act to remedy the situation.

The same applies to the pharmacists that refuse to dispense certain prescriptions, unless the employer hired the employee knowing about the religious objection.

Once again sorry for the detour.

[Tom]

Not at all....detours are farfegnugen. ;)

[hcap]

http://bp1.blogger.com/_2dJQxEtZAVo/R3L9j2VKlGI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/5tczblqlaLo/s400/holiday.jpg

What? No Merry Christmas?

The repugs have been beaten and have given up.
Long live the Secularists.
O'Reilly and Gibson go down in flames. :cool: :cool:

[PaceAdvantage]

What? No Merry Christmas?

The repugs have been beaten and have given up.
Long live the Secularists.
O'Reilly and Gibson go down in flames. :cool: :cool:I don't get it....do you send Christmas cards to your Jewish friends? I don't....

And I don't think this "O'Reilly" that you speak of was talking about this "controversy" along quite these same lines....move along now hcap....you look foolish.

[hcap]

Oh pu-lease. According to Lefty, Bill O'Reilly and John Gibson there is a war on Christmas demonstrated by secularists somehow getting "Our Christian Nation" blah, blah, blah to renounce saying "Merry Christmas" substituting non Christian specific greetings.

Looks like we secularists have won.

Long live us pinko-commie-Islamo-loving, west side latte drinking effete liberal secularists.

Down with The Traditional American Family......blah, blah, blah. Etc., Etc., Etc.

[Tom]

Alright...you're back on IGGY.
That didn't take long!:lol:



pssst.....There's a seat there next to ljb....in the back.

[hcap]

Lefty POST #53
Does it matter what symbols have been added and where they come from? The thing is over 80% of the country chooses to celebrate Dec 25 as the arbitrary date that has been chosen for the birth of Christ because we don't know the exact date. Yet secular progressives want to thwart this act.
Evidently, so does the NRCC. Why didn't they follow Leftys' 80% Christian constituency concept?

Lefty, O'Reily and Gibson claim there is a conspiracy out to stifle saying Christian specific greetings. Or Christian specific holiday observations.


I really don't care much about how people celebrate the holidays.
Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Festivus for the Restofus, etc. My only objection would be when government officially establishes one religious set of holiday observations at the expense of other faiths. In most cases this does not happen.

Tom, you said this, and I agree. As do many so-called secularists
We even grew up not only thinking Hanukkah was somehow part of Christmas, but many actually celebrated it as part the "holiday season." I know we had a menorah as part of our decorations. In school, we had only one Jewish boy in our class, and instead of prohibiting either holiday, we celebrated Christmas, but we learned about his, and he told us stories about it as part of our learning. No one was offended on either side. We even studied how Christmas, or it's equivalent, was observed by many religions and countries.