Mitchell Report SPeculation..

[harnesslover]

A friend of mine who works for the Phillies sent me an interesting email that mentioned an interesting list of players that were 'implicated' and were focuses of the MItchell investigation. He is not sure if all will show up on the list, but wouldn't be shocked if they all did.

Not sure what to make of this, but some of them are ones that I kinda have been guessing for years now..

Some of the big names: Chuck Finley, Juan GOnzalez, Pudge Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada, Lenny Dykstra, Roger CLemens, Troy Glaus, Matt Williams..

Gonna be fun.



(http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/#mark_mcgwire)

[Pace Cap'n]

So, say I'm a average major leaguer, making an average salary, and I'm thinking, "I'll try some of these here steroids. Hopefully, I'll develop into an all-star and sign a $90m contract. But, if I get caught, I'll get suspened for FIFTEEN GAMES. What to do, what to do?"

[harnesslover]

So, say I'm a average major leaguer, making an average salary, and I'm thinking, "I'll try some of these here steroids. Hopefully, I'll develop into an all-star and sign a $90m contract. But, if I get caught, I'll get suspened for FIFTEEN GAMES. What to do, what to do?"

Exactly.. One of the guys I played college ball with went to the A's and was stuck in AAA for a long time. He was told in a not so subtle manner that if he wanted to break the ice into the majors, he would have to find something to 'make the difference'.. He did and guess what, finally did get his chance.. Didn't do much with his chance, as he only played a handful of games, but what he said was that 75% of the guys in AAA take something.. He said it's almost impossible to be a star unless you have insane raw talent..

So... All this steroid/HGH stuff is not shocking to me

[Tom]

What is coming out today?
Proof?
He said/she said?
Inuendo?
Speculation?


Black Thursday or ho hum day?

[rastajenk]

Are minor league players in the union? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know. If you have a major-league contract but get sent down, or if you're a veteran that signs a minor-league contract with the expectation of getting a call-up, do you operate under the same set of rules that major leaguers do? Seems like there's plenty of gray area to be exploited, even if the Report brings about some changes in the culture.

[OTM Al]

Here is something that is not speculation. George Mitchell works for the owners. He is liked by the owners and was considered as a potential commissioner. That tells you how much he is owned. This report is nothing more than the shifting of blame from the owners, who full well knew what was going on, to the players fully. When it was rewarding for owners to ignore the problem (think 1998) they did, and now to protect their profits, they will turn on their employees.

[harnesslover]

What is coming out today?
Proof?
He said/she said?
Inuendo?
Speculation?


Black Thursday or ho hum day?

A list is coming out of players that have used roids or HGH or have at least purchased them
Proof? No idea
It's going to be flat out denial from players association
Innuendo? I THINK it's MLB's way of saying "there, we did something, you happy?"
Speculation? No, it's way past speculation.., HGH and roids are real and rampant.

[harnesslover]

And from the 'where there's smoke there's fire' angle, I wouldn't be surprised if the list is littered with Mets, Orioles, Yankees and former A's players..

The interesting one will be the Mets, with the finding of the clubhouse guy, who had worked there 11 years, found to have been selling HGH for years

[harnesslover]

What is coming out today?
Proof?
He said/she said?
Inuendo?
Speculation?


Black Thursday or ho hum day?
Tom, regarding sources/proof, apparently the list is based on 2 sources:

(Per ESPN)

Mitchell (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/george_mitchell) used two sources to compose his list of offenders: Kirk Radomski, a former New York Mets clubhouse attendant accused of selling steroids, and the results of an ongoing investigation into a Florida anti-aging clinic accused of selling performance-enhancing drugs.

[OTM Al]

I saw a list that was on WNBC but has now been taken down. Reporter standing by original sources

The name that surprised me most was Jason Varitek, just a bit more than Johnny Damon. Both Boone Brothers were listed as well as the Cansecos (duh). Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens were both on as well. But for you Yankee haters there was no Alex Rodriguez. Most of the names were obvious.

[harnesslover]

I saw a list that was on WNBC but has now been taken down. Reporter standing by original sources

The name that surprised me most was Jason Varitek, just a bit more than Johnny Damon. Both Boone Brothers were listed as well as the Cansecos (duh). Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens were both on as well. But for you Yankee haters there was no Alex Rodriguez. Most of the names were obvious.

And to think you blasted me a few months ago for saying Clemens was on the juice LOL

[OTM Al]

Its quite interesting that I can still see your posts with email alert, but fortunately not on the board. So for old times sake I will actually respond to you once more. I don't recall saying Clemens had never been on steroids, but who knows. If I did, I will chalk it up to being so completely annoyed with you that I would say anything. Kinda like the info you get from torture. Now I will go back to blissfully ignoring you.

[njcurveball]

But for you Yankee haters there was no Alex Rodriguez.

So you are saying there are no ROIDs in A-Roid. I guess his new nickname will just be A then. :lol:

[RaceBookJoe]

I am glad I didnt blast you. I hate to say it, but I think that once atheletes get to a certain point...be it age/injury, they need the chemicals to keep them on the same level. It is a rare average 36-40 yr old that can compete with the average 26-30 yr old. Not in every case , but in many. Kids nowadays seem to me to be bigger than they were when i was in high school. Maybe it is the steroids that are given to the cows that supply the milk and beef in the country. That last sentence isnt meant to open up a whole other can of worms....just speculation on my part.

[Show Me the Wire]

What is coming out today?
Proof?
He said/she said?
Inuendo?
Speculation?


Black Thursday or ho hum day?

Actually Tom, it is proof. Trainer saying he did something for someone is proof. Same as identifying someone as robbing you. Personal testimony is proof. What is questionable is the veracity of the witness to the event.

[OTM Al]

Personal testamony is evidence, not proof. It can be very strong evidence or very weak depending on the person and circumstance.

[harnesslover]

Personal testamony is evidence, not proof. It can be very strong evidence or very weak depending on the person and circumstance.

Even though lying to a former senator is not something someone would likely take a chance on for personal benefit..

[Show Me the Wire]

Personal testamony is evidence, not proof. It can be very strong evidence or very weak depending on the person and circumstance.


Picky, picky. Proof comes from the strength of the evidence. All I was pointing out to Tom credible evidence comes from he said/ she said about what he or she did, observed, etc. It is more than speculation or innuendo and not hearsay because the person actually observing the event or doing the action is stating his or her actual personal knowledge.

[harnesslover]

Picky, picky. Proof comes from the strength of the evidence. All I was pointing out to Tom credible evidence comes from he said/ she said about what he or she did, observed, etc. It is more than speculation or innuendo and not hearsay because the person actually observing the event or doing the action is stating his or her actual personal knowledge.
Not to mention that the trainer is admitting to providing illegal drugs to someone..

[OTM Al]

When it comes to the damaging of an individual's reputation, we should be picky. Even more so if criminal proceedings are involved.

[Show Me the Wire]

When it comes to the damaging of an individual's reputation, we should be picky. Even more so if criminal proceedings are involved.

Agreed.

[njcurveball]

WOW! The Mitchell Report cites as a reference the Jose Canseco book, Juiced!

Funny how the same people embracing this report were also some of the people working hard to keep Canseco quiet and kick him out of baseball! :bang:

[OTM Al]

Well, the initial list NBC posted was a bit off. No Damon or Veritek in my quick skimming of the report. Those were the two that I would have been surprised about. Of course this doesn't mean that they didn't just that the report sources didn't name them.....The report in my quick read is somewhat slanted toward certain groups of players who were nearest to the sources, such as the Mets clubhouse guy. Lots of former Mets on the list despite the rumor no Mets were on. Also the guys that went through the Bay area. There is also a mysterious player X mentioned that they could not disclose, so who knows what happened there. A lot of the guys seemed to use to help heal from injuries.

[njcurveball]

I guess in a quick read, the most obvious example of Mitchell's alliance comes in the story about Manny Alexander. Here is a guy who was in the Red Sox clubhouse with syringes and he concludes his investigation with

"The Commisioners Office closed its investigation without determining who had been responsible for the anabolic steroids and hypodermic needles being in the vehicle."

And my favorite

"No one from the Commisioner's Office interviewed either Cowart or Cowart's friend about the incident or their knowledge concerning the steroids or syringes"

SURE! Don't ask questions of people when you dont want to hear the answers!

Obvious bias to New York players being found guilty and exhausting every resource including Canseco's book (after the same people called him a liar).

But no sense going after anyone in the Red Sox clubhouse.

This is a very good book report done by Mitchell. And he certainly has gave Canseco a ton of "street cred" now.

Canseco blew the whistle on Clemens a long time ago and was called a liar, I wonder if he will be getting an apology now?

[njcurveball]

From what I can tell, a quick read of the report and comparing names with "sources" from articles before 2 pm, shows the News people got about half the names right.

Are they going to retract their accusations for the ones they got wrong?

[OTM Al]

Are you sure they really got them wrong? Just because they weren't in the report doesn't mean that there weren't indications about them. Maybe removed from an earlier draft due to not enough evidence. The NBC thing I saw was supposedly supplied by 2 sources. That many names from 2 sources makes the odds pretty low that they would be the same by luck. No accusations were made in what I saw either. These names were simply reported as being in the report. Subtle difference to be sure, but a difference. Did you notice that despite the fact McGuire's name was used, he himself wasn't actually named? Strong proof...er evidence...that not nearly all involved were caught.

[njcurveball]

Are you sure they really got them wrong?

These are the names in the report from MSNBC. So if articles use the Mitchell Report as a source and the name does not appear here, then I would say they got it wrong. One name that comes to mind is Brady Anderson. I did not memorize all of the stuff coming out before 2pm, and hopefully they have pulled it from

Chad Allen
Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
Mike Bell
David Bell
Gary Bennett Jr.
Marvin Bernard
Larry Bigbie
Barry Bonds (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22244549/#)
Kevin Brown
Paul Byrd
Ken Caminiti
Jose Canseco (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22244549/#)
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella
Matt Franco
Ryan Franklin
Eric Gagne
Jason Giambi
Jeremi Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Matt Herges
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill
Darren Holmes
Todd Hundley
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Gary Matthews Jr.
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
David Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Brian Roberts
John Rocker
F.P. Santangelo
Benito Santiago
Gary Sheffield
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Mike Stanton
Miguel Tejada
Ismael Valdez
Mo Vaughn
Randy Velarde
Ron Villone
Fernando Vina
Rondell White
Todd Williams
Jeff Williams
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun

[ponyplayerdotca]

Not that this means much 18 years after the fact, but:

My father, friends and I were at the Oakland A's-Toronto Blue Jays ALCS playoff games at the SkyDome back in 1989.

Being in Canada, it was only one year after the 1988 Seoul Olympics debacle in the 100 meters with Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis. So, we here in Canada were well aware of the steroid culture in sports. "If you want to compete at the top level, and many at that level are taking an advantage with drugs, how else are you to achieve that?"

We knew the defending AL champion A's were heavy favorites, but we still went to all three games and screamed at the Bash Brothers and the LaRussa bunch every chance we got:

"STER-OIDS!!! STER-OIDS!!!"

Nobody had proof, but there was fan-wide cynicism, and heavy media suspicion at the time that there was use of steroids by the A's, and by others.

That was 1989!

It shouldn't have takes almost 20 years for the league to finally put out a report like this.

Brady Anderson is the one player in the early 90s my buddy and I both remember as a user.

His home run totals skyrocketed one year from his career previous, and he went from obscure outfielder to mega-contract free agent who went from the pharmacy in Oakland to play for Baltimore.

It was sheer lunacy to believe that baseball players weren't involved in the chemical culture.

But when the strike hit in 1994, the owners/commissioner had to get the game popular again, so they turned a blind eye to the situation.

Now that they've all made gargantuan amounts of money, they want to be responsible and maintain respect for the game. Self-serving as always.

[njcurveball]

The NBC thing I saw was supposedly supplied by 2 sources. .

After reviewing the report against the WNBC report, I would have to say YES they definitely got it wrong!

Here are the names WNBC said they had in a "draft" of the Mitchell report. Some were already mentioned in Game of Shadows and Cansecos book. Others taken from recent news stories and the rest were guesses. Unfortunately, they guessed wrong on a lot of them!

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafael Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose Canseco, Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams, Kerry Wood

[OTM Al]

With Mark McGwire, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa and Brady Anderson not in the report, I think the report list is far more wrong than the NBC list. Millions of dollars spent and they couldn't trace anything except on the info from 2 low level employees who had the gun of federal prosecution held to their heads. The report that was supposed to name names did very very little. Barely worth the paper it was printed on.

[njcurveball]

. The report that was supposed to name names did very very little. Barely worth the paper it was printed on.


I totally agree with you and if you add the money from this waste of time to the Bonds "witch trial", you would probably have enough to pay the entire Marlins team this year!

Not saying anyone is innocent, just think spending millions to prove a guy lied about injecting himself when there is a report that already says he did it really isn't worth the time or money.

[OTM Al]

At $22 million if reports are true, you could pay for a couple of teams of Marlins, plus you'd get about $60 million per in revenue sharing. They will probably out net the Yankees next year.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Considering what I hear is the weakness of the accusations, and considering that the tie-game commish immediate imediately made changes; Was the real intent of this report to weaken the players' union?

[OTM Al]

Clearly. They will be made to look the bad guys for appearing resistant to testing. Mitchell is involed with Red Sox ownership, was formally in charge of the Angels through his being CEO of Walt Disney. He is a schill of the owners, just as commissioner Bud is

[Tom]

I suspect some lawsuits will arise.
This whole thing is a joke.

You either have witnesses, test results, or you keep your mouth shut.
It is onw thing for horseplayers to "speculate" on ahorse board about juice trainers. It is quite different for a former US Senator to go public with coffe klatch gossip, and this is just gossip at this point.

I suspect all and more are guilty as hell, but given a juice player and a gossip spreading has-been shilling for the owners, give me the juice player everyday.

I hope they sue him for all the graft he's got left.:p

[harnesslover]

Anyone else find the most unbelievable part of this whole thing is they had scanned images of tons of CHECKS written by these idiots!! These same guys who make $1200 in meal money for a roadtrip are writing $1200 checks to buy illegal steroids..

I am not sure if that is the height of stupidity or the height of brazeness..

[Marshall Bennett]

Especially knowing checks , credit cards , ect. leave a paper trail . You'd think they would be smart enough do deal only in cash !!

[njcurveball]

You'd think they would be smart enough do deal only in cash !!

You are thinking like they were dealing with honest people and not scum. I am betting they paid with checks simply to prove to the scum they bought the stuff from that they paid them.

Ever pay a bill by check simply to have a receipt to show if they said you owed money?

The last thing these players wanted was someone blowing the whistle on them from a payment dispute.

[OTM Al]

Another thing is that these players should not be all considered in one group. Different circumstance and conditions are obvious and we can group guys into 4 different categories

1) Guys who were hurt using to recover: This is really to me a legitimate use of such drugs, though still not clean because of legality, I really could care less about these guys.

2) Guys who wouldn't make it to the majors without the extra help. This may be the most dangerous situation for any player. I can almost sympathize with these guys. So close to a dream. So tempted to do anything to get there.

3) Major league players who used to become great major league players. These are the Brady Andersons of the world who stick out like sore thumbs.

4) Good to great major league players who use. The ones that start using because all of a sudden average players are better than them. The Barry Bonds category.

Different levels and types of blame should be accessed. Which are the most guilty is personal preference.

[harnesslover]

2) Guys who wouldn't make it to the majors without the extra help. This may be the most dangerous situation for any player. I can almost sympathize with these guys. So close to a dream. So tempted to do anything to get there.


Honestly, this is the group I almost sympathize with too.. Not because what they did was any less illegal, but they are behind guys who are already on roids, so they are at an unfair advantage.

And like someone else posted, take the roids, get the big, guaranteed contract, THEN get caught? You're rich as hell by then and you get slap on the wrist.

If nothing else, it sounds quite enticing to a AAA guy who is that close.

[OTM Al]

My last thought on it....

If everyone was doing it, was it really cheating? Reminds me of what we call congestion externalities in economics. If just one guy leaves the ball game early, he will have no traffic issues, but if everyone does it, then no advantage is gained.

[harnesslover]

My last thought on it....

If everyone was doing it, was it really cheating? Reminds me of what we call congestion externalities in economics. If just one guy leaves the ball game early, he will have no traffic issues, but if everyone does it, then no advantage is gained.

It's not about cheating, it's about getting caught..

If you go 90 mph on the highway and don't get pulled over, is it speeding?

[melman]

Here is what Lenny Dykstra had to say "I don't even remember the guy. He's a punk, this guy. He's trying to thrown everyone under the bus to save his a$$." "I don't need lawyers for some punk making up lies." Asked if he denied ever taking steriods, Dykstra said, "Absolutely".

Here is what David Justice had to say "Mac is lying I was playing with a sports hernia and he (McNamee) said to me that HGH will help you recover from injuries." Justice recounted "He said he was going to put it in my locker, and when I saw it was needles I couldn't do it because I don't do needles."

[kenwoodallpromos]

Anyone else find the most unbelievable part of this whole thing is they had scanned images of tons of CHECKS written by these idiots!! These same guys who make $1200 in meal money for a roadtrip are writing $1200 checks to buy illegal steroids..

I am not sure if that is the height of stupidity or the height of brazeness..
How many of thioe checks were written Prior to MLB making a rule against steroids?

[OTM Al]

One guy was a personal trainer, the other was a clubhouse guy. Players pay them for their services frequently and probably very often with check. It would be difficult to prove that the check was for drugs even if they really were.

[harnesslover]

How many of thioe checks were written Prior to MLB making a rule against steroids?

Who cares? Steroids are illegal, period.