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View Full Version : The American Dream is Alive and Well ... in Finland!


ljb
12-11-2007, 08:52 AM
It's harder for young workers to move up the economic ladder in the United States than in other wealthy countries. What happened to the American dream?
When they compared men aged 30-39 in 1994 with their fathers at the same point in their careers, they found that median incomes had increased by just 0.2 percent annually during the past three decades. But, they noted, "the story changes for a younger cohort." Men in their thirties in 2004 had a median income that was, on average, 12 percent less than that of their fathers' generation at the same age. The scholars concluded: "The up-escalator that has historically ensured that each generation would do better than the last may not be working very well."


Link to pdf with more data.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/papers/2007/05useconomics_morton/05useconomics_morton.pdf

harnesslover
12-11-2007, 09:35 AM
It's harder for young workers to move up the economic ladder in the United States than in other wealthy countries. What happened to the American dream?
When they compared men aged 30-39 in 1994 with their fathers at the same point in their careers, they found that median incomes had increased by just 0.2 percent annually during the past three decades. But, they noted, "the story changes for a younger cohort." Men in their thirties in 2004 had a median income that was, on average, 12 percent less than that of their fathers' generation at the same age. The scholars concluded: "The up-escalator that has historically ensured that each generation would do better than the last may not be working very well."


Link to pdf with more data.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/papers/2007/05useconomics_morton/05useconomics_morton.pdf

This couldn't POSSIBLY have to do with work ethic, could it? I know, as always, you are steering this to s struggling economy, Bush, US failing, blah blah blah.. But did you ever stop to think 'we' don't work as hard as our fathers did and certainly not as hard as our grandfathers?

Nah, never mind, easier to blame GBJ

Tom
12-11-2007, 09:46 AM
1. Population-wise, how does Finland compare with our states?
2. Don't forget, Finland doesn't have the libs there that we have here. You remember them, the roadblocks to proserity? The ones who are always out to penalize success? The ones out to tax the shorts off anyone above poverty?
4. How much does Finland spent on defense and entitlements compared to our percentage?
3. When are you leaving? I'm serious, if it's so good, why don't you go, and stop off in Cuba for checkup on your way. You need some cash for the move?
I can get you all you need right here on this board! :lol: Ralph already PM'd me a check! :lol:

ljb
12-11-2007, 10:01 AM
This couldn't POSSIBLY have to do with work ethic, could it? I know, as always, you are steering this to s struggling economy, Bush, US failing, blah blah blah.. But did you ever stop to think 'we' don't work as hard as our fathers did and certainly not as hard as our grandfathers?

Nah, never mind, easier to blame GBJ
Are you suggesting the Americans have a poor work ethic compared to Finnish folk ?
You may want to take a few minutes to read some of the study before you accuse me steering this to a struggling economy blah, blah, blah....
From what I have read so far I did not see any blame Bush rhetoric in the study.
A couple of things I saw mentioned were, the decline of good paying manufacturing jobs and the poor quality of education in the U.S. as compared to the other countries studied.

ljb
12-11-2007, 10:07 AM
1. Population-wise, how does Finland compare with our states?
2. Don't forget, Finland doesn't have the libs there that we have here. You remember them, the roadblocks to proserity? The ones who are always out to penalize success? The ones out to tax the shorts off anyone above poverty?
4. How much does Finland spent on defense and entitlements compared to our percentage?
3. When are you leaving? I'm serious, if it's so good, why don't you go, and stop off in Cuba for checkup on your way. You need some cash for the move?
I can get you all you need right here on this board! :lol: Ralph already PM'd me a check! :lol:
I have no idea how Finland compares to U.S. in population. If this is a factor, it could be googled.
2. I believe Finland is much more liberal then the U.S. They do not spend nearly as much on war material as the U.S. but do spend more on education and health care. And I believe they have a higher tax rate then the U.S.
3.AmeriKa love it or leave it. This idea died during Viet Nam Move on.
Take the check from Ralph and donate it to one of the many charitable events going on right now for our troops.
thank you,
ljb

kenwoodallpromos
12-11-2007, 12:59 PM
Does the stats take into account occupational title shifts? Those dads were that age in the 50's and 60's before NAFTA , the service ecoonomy, when lead-based products were made in the USA!

46zilzal
12-11-2007, 01:03 PM
I used to care for many geriatrics at the Finnish Home here in town. It is, BY FAR, the cleanest, best run true rendition of a home for seniors I ever frequented. A model that all the others should follow.

If this is representative of the people as a whole, and it was consistent from the medical director down to the cleaning staff, I am all for them.

DeanT
12-11-2007, 01:09 PM
These type "studies" always slant to whoever pays the bills of the stufy itself. I can't believe people even read them anymore.

As a Canadian, the US bashing makes me chuckle. It is the strongest country in arguably, the history of the world. You have people lined up like cattle to get in. Yet in the mainstream news you read the USA is "not respected around the world". What a joke.

I worked at one of our banks here for a few years. There were four or five immigrants from India and Pakistan working with me. MBA's in their own country. They were doing crap work here, with about zero chance of advancement. We have a British type system here and it really is constrictive to people getting ahead on merit. When speaking with them I asked what their first choice was in immigrating - it was the USA. Why? Because according to them "you can move up there (then they listed relatives who with their overseas education and work ethic moved up appreciably in a short period of time). They don't care what color you are, or how old. If you do a good job you can move up. it is not like that here" they said.

I was happy when our current Prime Minister made this topic a big part of his platform, in effect "just because you are from another country with an MBA does not mean you should drive a cab"

I emailed one old friend recently. He started his own business finally and he has stopped applying to get in the US, and is living here finally with a decent income.

America is the greatest country in the world if you want to work hard. There is no other like it.

harnesslover
12-11-2007, 01:13 PM
Are you suggesting the Americans have a poor work ethic compared to Finnish folk ?
You may want to take a few minutes to read some of the study before you accuse me steering this to a struggling economy blah, blah, blah....
From what I have read so far I did not see any blame Bush rhetoric in the study.
A couple of things I saw mentioned were, the decline of good paying manufacturing jobs and the poor quality of education in the U.S. as compared to the other countries studied.

I know nothing about Finish work ethic, but I think it's safe to say, as a whole, US workers do have a poorer work ethic than some countries..

I will say that the US does not take care of teachers as they should and that could lead to the decline in education, as well as simply a decline in good teachers. The gap between highly educated and non-educated people in the US widens every day..

eclecticapper
12-11-2007, 02:05 PM
Here's a link with info on taxes in Finland (including 28% on capital gains):

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/finland/finland_tax.asp

Tom
12-11-2007, 02:40 PM
teachers. The gap between highly educated and non-educated people in the US widens every day..


Lou Dobbs, speaking on CSPAN the other day hit the nail on the head with this - one party wants to provide vouvhers so kids can go to better schools,the other wants to provide "magnet schools, or whatever, or bus kids around.
BULL**** - you fix every single school in every single neighborhood so that ANY school in the USA is the same quality and provides the same education. Nothing else is acceptable.

Both parties have - I believe intentionally- have failed completely in education. A dumb population only benefits both parties. This is part of thier strategy. The LAST think either one needs is thinking people. Witness the current crop of buffoons, stooges, and fools on both sides running for president. If we have educated people in adequate numbers left, we would be rioting in the streets.

PaceAdvantage
12-11-2007, 03:16 PM
How much of a strain does unchecked illegal immigration place on the Finnish economy? Just curious....

ljb
12-11-2007, 03:19 PM
These type "studies" always slant to whoever pays the bills of the stufy itself. I can't believe people even read them anymore.
This study is from the Bookings institute an independent group in Washington D.C.

As a Canadian, the US bashing makes me chuckle. It is the strongest country in arguably, the history of the world. You have people lined up like cattle to get in. Yet in the mainstream news you read the USA is "not respected around the world". What a joke.

If you think the U.S. is still respected around the world, you should get out more.

I worked at one of our banks here for a few years. There were four or five immigrants from India and Pakistan working with me. MBA's in their own country. They were doing crap work here, with about zero chance of advancement. We have a British type system here and it really is constrictive to people getting ahead on merit. When speaking with them I asked what their first choice was in immigrating - it was the USA. Why? Because according to them "you can move up there (then they listed relatives who with their overseas education and work ethic moved up appreciably in a short period of time). They don't care what color you are, or how old. If you do a good job you can move up. it is not like that here" they said.

There is a section in the study regarding meritocracy and how it no longer exists in the U.S. as it did in the past.

delayjf
12-11-2007, 03:35 PM
If you think the U.S. is still respected around the world, you should get out more.
I think your confusing respect and being liked - We're respected all right- the big dog always gets respect - sometimes its motivated by fear.

harnesslover
12-11-2007, 03:46 PM
[QUOTE=ljb]

If you think the U.S. is still respected around the world, you should get out more.
QUOTE]
You view respect as what people say. I view respect at how many people go to great lengths to come and live here.

In fact we have plenty of people on this board alone that fit your criteria for disrespect, yet moved here.. Ironic ain't it?

rastajenk
12-11-2007, 04:42 PM
Even if all of the other citizens of the world began "respecting" the US tomorrow, it wouldn't make a bit of difference...in anything. Commerce, defense, security...what else is there. Respect as a currency has no value.

DeanT
12-11-2007, 06:44 PM
This study is from the Bookings institute an independent group in Washington D.C.

If you think the U.S. is still respected around the world, you should get out more.

There is a section in the study regarding meritocracy and how it no longer exists in the U.S. as it did in the past.

The Brookings group is a left leaning think tank. Everyone knows that. If another view was propogated by a conservative think tank like the American Enterprise group I would have the same view. Follow the money with these groups. You will know what side of an issue they will be on before you read the conclusions. Makes life easy.

The US is respected around the world for its freedom, its way of life and its opportunity. That is why there are 5 million people from around the world lined up to get in, or people from Mexico jumping fences to get in, or people from Cuba floating on a piece of wood to get in.

The silent majority who does not yell and scream much knows this. Ask the residents of a village in Normandy if the US is respected. It will be a different response than you hear in a Paris cafe.

For the people who put their money where their mouth is - in some cases their lives - it is respected just fine.

Bristol
12-11-2007, 08:26 PM
Both parties have - I believe intentionally- have failed completely in education. A dumb population only benefits both parties. This is part of thier strategy. The LAST thing either one needs is thinking people. Witness the current crop of buffoons, stooges, and fools on both sides running for president. If we have educated people in adequate numbers left, we would be rioting in the streets.

BINGO!!!!:jump:

robert99
12-12-2007, 06:07 PM
We have a British type system here and it really is constrictive to people getting ahead on merit.

Canada has a Canadian system - don't blame us.

If you don't think UK has a meritocratic system that allows any citizen to succeed irrespective of birth, then the following list of father's occupations ( ) for UK Prime Ministers over the last 40 years would not confirm that:

H Wilson 64-70/74-6 (chemist)
E Heath 70-74 (carpenter)
J Callaghan 76-9 (navy petty officer)
M Thatcher 79-90 (grocery shop keeper)
J Major 90-97 (circus performer and bankrupt)
T Blair 97 -07 (disabled law lecturer)
G Brown 2007 - (church minister)

No silver spoons nor rich daddys and one women - that compares well even with USA.

DeanT
12-12-2007, 09:44 PM
I guess I could turn that around and say "why was a talented person like Margaret Thatcher confined to being a grocery shop keeper?"

:)

I get your point Robert. People certainly can succeed here (and in your country), but the establishment does pigeon hole you quite well in older businesses, like banks. I am certainly no "Bush engineered 9-11 so his brothers, 3rd cousins, gardeners, dentist could make money shorting American Airlines stock" lefty, so take that fwiw. I have seen such things happen far too often here, and have seen too many talented, smart people be suppressed in their careers and be told they can not advance, only to then achieve amazing success in the USA. In a relatively short period of time.