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betsall
12-05-2007, 03:25 PM
Like PA says he won't take it down as it's part of warner bros. Fine, I agree. Can't say that I really cared much one way or another till today.

What I do care about is when people are asked direct questions about something in plain site and they don't answer. It says alot about them, no matter how often they have to answer. Sorta like when your tall and people are always asking " do you play basketball"., ya get tired of it but thats the way it is.

We all know what it means, don't be coy, you make yourselves look bad.

The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery (http://www.infoplease.com/id/A0845517) and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

Show Me the Wire
12-05-2007, 03:37 PM
It may be ONE of the symbols of some extreme groups, as you say, but as P.A. pointed out it is also used commercially. It is not an exclusive symbol of extreme groups.

betsall
12-05-2007, 03:39 PM
It may be ONE of the symbols of some extreme groups, as you say, but as P.A. pointed out it is also used commercially. It is not an exclusive symbol of extreme groups.

I agree. No problem with that.

Greyfox
12-05-2007, 03:40 PM
The blue saltire on the Confederate Flag is referred to as "The Southern Cross" or the Cross of St. Andrews, not the flag itself.

The Australian Flag is referred to as The Southern Cross.
Nevertheless, several posters on this board are descendants of Great Grandparents who fought proudly, as Americans, under that banner.

betsall
12-05-2007, 03:50 PM
The blue saltire on the Confederate Flag is referred to as "The Southern Cross" or the Cross of St. Andrews, not the flag itself.

The Australian Flag is referred to as The Southern Cross.
Nevertheless, several posters on this board are descendants of Great Grandparents who fought proudly, as Americans, under that banner.

Will admit that I really don't know how to feel about that cause of the history facts. Being serious and not sarcastic.

Couldn't a descendants of a Nazi's say the same thing, having fought bravely under their flag.

Greyfox
12-05-2007, 03:54 PM
Couldn't a descendants of a Nazi's say the same thing, having fought bravely under their flag.

Maybe they can on a German poster board. Many Germans who were enlisted by Hitler's Nazi's fought for the country, not for Nazism.

Tom
12-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Not in this country. Or planet.

betsall
12-05-2007, 04:04 PM
Maybe they can on a German poster board. Many Germans who were enlisted by Hitler's Nazi's fought for the country, not for Nazism.

Ok that makes sense and i'm sure fact.

Dam if your any more reasonable I will have to award you the most mature, sensible, well adjusted, mentally fit, etc, etc person on this board. I'm not, that's why I can see the difference, never mind.

Yet we all know what the nazi symbol and the southerm flag really mean to most people and it's not positive.

My thinking is it's nothing but something to incite.

Greyfox
12-05-2007, 04:15 PM
Ok that makes sense and i'm sure fact.

Dam if your any more reasonable I will have to award you the most mature, sensible, well adjusted, mentally fit, etc, etc person on this board. I'm not, that's why I can see the difference, never mind.

Yet we all know what the nazi symbol and the southerm flag really mean to most people and it's not positive.

My thinking is it's nothing but something to incite.

There is no doubt that flags carry symbols and symbols incite emotions.
The swaztika, which was a flag of the Nazi party, and not Germany, certainly incites my blood to boil.
The Confederate flag does not have that impact on me.
It's a "Rebel Flag," as in the Dukes of Hazard. I suppose for some though, if they associate it with slavery and white supremacists, it will have some effect. Why they would associate it with that is beyond me.

GaryG
12-05-2007, 04:21 PM
My thinking is it's nothing but something to incite.Nothing could be further from the truth. Please read some US history. This has been discussed here at great length and I am not going through all of it again.

betsall
12-05-2007, 05:28 PM
Nothing could be further from the truth. Please read some US history. This has been discussed here at great length and I am not going through all of it again.

Wish I knew how to search to find that thread. Am I to guess the words that will take me there.

flags, south, kkk, rasist, loyalty, proud, southern americans, jefferson davis, slavery, gary's explanation, newbie questions, etc, etc.

Still if I wear fur and get real animal blood thrown on me who is really to blame. Is it legal, yes but is it now " fill in the blank" acceptable.

Glad you don't conform but you have to then be ready to defend yourself day after day cause that's just the way it is.

Grits
12-05-2007, 05:57 PM
Wish I knew how to search to find that thread. Am I to guess the words that will take me there.

flags, south, kkk, rasist, loyalty, proud, southern americans, jefferson davis, slavery, gary's explanation, newbie questions, etc, etc.

Still if I wear fur and get real animal blood thrown on me who is really to blame. Is it legal, yes but is it now " fill in the blank" acceptable.

Glad you don't conform but you have to then be ready to defend yourself day after day cause that's just the way it is.

You're rambling a whole lot here. Between the rambling and the typos are you nervous? Its also obvious, you are attempting to incite.

Rehashing a topic that you were just told has been discussed here numerous times doesn't really serve any purpose beyond the fact that you have an agenda.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell anyone that brings this up.

"I never owned a one. Nor have I ever asked a soul to do a thing for me that I wouldn't do myself."

GRITS is an acronym for Girl Raised In The South. While at it, I can assure you, if you threw blood all over one of my mink coats, one of us would be spending the night in jail. Not to mention that I'd sue the hell out of you.

lilmegahertz
12-05-2007, 06:05 PM
Man oh Mandella am I glad I did not bring up the Okies reaction to hubby flying his Canadian maple leaf and me flying my Puerto Rican/Cuban colors...;) :blush:

JustMissed
12-05-2007, 06:12 PM
Man oh Mandella am I glad I did not bring up the Okies reaction to hubby flying his Canadian maple leaf and me flying my Puerto Rican/Cuban colors...;) :blush:

I am not familar with that word.

I hope it is not racist or demeaing to anyone.

JM :confused:

lilmegahertz
12-05-2007, 06:18 PM
It is what the people of Oklahoma are proud to call themselves I suppose as it is everywhere...EX: OKIE owned is on a lot of businesses....so if someone calls themselves that then how can it be racist?

betsall
12-05-2007, 06:50 PM
You're rambling a whole lot here. Between the rambling and the typos are you nervous? Its also obvious, you are attempting to incite.

Rehashing a topic that you were just told has been discussed here numerous times doesn't really serve any purpose beyond the fact that you have an agenda.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell anyone that brings this up.

"I never owned a one. Nor have I ever asked a soul to do a thing for me that I wouldn't do myself."

GRITS is an acronym for Girl Raised In The South. While at it, I can assure you, if you threw blood all over one of my mink coats, one of us would be spending the night in jail. Not to mention that I'd sue the hell out of you.

Of course I am, a little, correct.

You all, the bunch of ya, are pretty much worthless when it comes to being helpful and i am sure in alot more ways that will come clearer when I read more of what you have to say.

umpth time I am told it's here but none say where it is...like i said totally worthless.

no rehasing baby cause im a newbie and responded to a post that questioned the flag, pay attention, if your old i will over look it.

Acting tough hey, ...now you talkin to me baby.....

Grits
12-05-2007, 07:11 PM
I beg your pardon, I'm not old. You simply equate mink coats with the elderly.

That's your problem, not mine sir.

Hope that your fishing finds you some answers, though, I believe you're better off with history books than online messageboards.

I'm done with flags.;)

Tom
12-05-2007, 10:24 PM
umpth time I am told it's here but none say where it is...like i said totally worthless.

Anyone smarter than dirt has been able to figure out how to search.
Maybe you can find an instructional video on you.boob.

betsall
12-05-2007, 11:09 PM
Anyone smarter than dirt has been able to figure out how to search.
Maybe you can find an instructional video on you.boob.

All of you who say it's here and don't help other then say search for it are worthless human beings. Your worthless cause you obviously know someone is wanting and all you can do is say look for it.

Worthless, all of ya. Absouletly worthless.:kiss: :kiss: now kiss this...0:lol:

betsall
12-05-2007, 11:13 PM
Wish I knew how to search to find that thread. Am I to guess the words that will take me there.

flags, south, kkk, rasist, loyalty, proud, southern americans, jefferson davis, slavery, gary's explanation, newbie questions, etc, etc.

Still if I wear fur and get real animal blood thrown on me who is really to blame. Is it legal, yes but is it now " fill in the blank" acceptable.

Glad you don't conform but you have to then be ready to defend yourself day after day cause that's just the way it is.

Let me add another possible search word to find it...uncle TOM......:lol:
, gary the silent, top poster = top imposter threads, mr tom who thinks he knows it all...:lol: :lol: :D :kiss:

betsall
12-05-2007, 11:15 PM
Anyone smarter than dirt has been able to figure out how to search.
Maybe you can find an instructional video on you.boob.

Don't stop now, your on a roll. Come on with your bad self.

OTM Al
12-05-2007, 11:30 PM
Personally, I feel that the display of this flag is pretty ignorant. It was the symbol of a group of states that supported the enslavement of other human beings and rose in armed insurrection against the government of the United States of America resulting in the deaths and mutilations of thousands of American citizens. It was not a blissful and wonderful time in this country and I find it absurd to be proud of such a heritage. Much of the hatemongering these days under that banner I grant had little to do with the intent of the men who created it, though soldiers who fought proudly under it were responsible for creating the Klan. But we have no law, nor should we, to prohibit it, unlike Germany does for the Nazi flag.I understand the regoinal pride that still seems to hold in parts of this country as the driving force for the perpetuation of this symbol, though I would like to say welcome to the USA, please join the rest of us in 2007 as 1861 was 146 years ago. I think there are plenty of other things that origninated in the southern states that would be a far better representation of your heritage. How about the fact that the first manned flight happened there? How about the bravery of the citizens of South Carolina in the War for Independance? Fly it if you will as it is your right, but it seems to me that many here got very upset at Mexican for flying their flag here. They'll tell you that is their heritage too.

riskman
12-05-2007, 11:38 PM
Charlie Brown said:

"For one brief moment today I thought I was winning in the game of life. But there was a flag on the play!"

Tom
12-06-2007, 07:36 AM
Al, do you think flying the American flag is ignorant too?
After all, it flew over the rise of slavery and many years of counting blacks as 3/5's of a person. And the prohibition of women voting. And poll taxes. And the rape of the south by carpetbaggfers after the civil war. How can you fly that flag?

Tom
12-06-2007, 07:39 AM
All of you who say it's here and don't help other then say search for it are worthless human beings. Your worthless cause you obviously know someone is wanting and all you can do is say look for it.

Worthless, all of ya. Absouletly worthless.:kiss: :kiss: now kiss this...0:lol:

Am I my brohter's keeper?
And I agree, you are the most "wanting" poster I have ever seen here.

betsall
12-06-2007, 08:01 AM
Am I my brohter's keeper?
And I agree, you are the most "wanting" poster I have ever seen here.

Good grief. Maybe if I say no more you won't say no more.

Maybe Lucy was right, I do have a phopia...Allodoxaphobia.

OTM Al
12-06-2007, 09:29 AM
No Tom, because we as a country, at least in respect to our laws and the majority of our people, have moved forward. Perhaps, if the CSA had continued to exist they too may have, but that is something we cannot know. Therefore, the symbolism is frozen it time. All peoples have done horrendous things in their histories. The merit is the ability to move forward as a civilization from the barbaric acts of our past

Tom
12-06-2007, 09:34 AM
That's my point - that flag also represents that we were able to split apart, fight a war, and then come to our senses and re-form the union. I consider the Confederacy a part of America. More so than some states today!;)

GaryG
12-06-2007, 09:54 AM
This is all I have to say on the subject:

http://www.confederateamericanpride.com/SouthernbyGrace.jpg

OTM Al
12-06-2007, 10:01 AM
Politically that was Lincoln's stance as well. Had he not been murdered perhaps the reconciliation would have gone much better. However, that was not the opinion of the CSA. It was not like there was an agreement to split and then a reconciliation of ideals and a reforming. There was a split caused by an armed insurrection that was finally put down at the cost of thousands upon thousands of lives and the destruction of many major cities in the southern states. The current US flag, the one with 50 stars, represents the fact that we split apart and reformed. Not the 13 stars of those who broke away. Are you also aware that this flag is not even the original nor the final flag of the CSA? It was actually the battle flag of Jackson and was not adopted until 1863 as the national falg and then itself was replaced in 1865. It is also incorrect to refer to it as the Stars and Bars as that was the name of the original flag.

GaryG
12-06-2007, 10:24 AM
That is right about Lincoln. Johnson would have pursued the same "lenient" policy toward rebuilding the nation but he was railroaded with false charges. Grant and Hayes policies are to blame for the ill wil that exists today. The carpetbag governments were brutal and were the cause of many young men turning outlaw. Two outstanding examples are John Wesley Hardin and Bill Longley from Texas. The war was fought over several issues, the main one being States Rights. At that time we did not have an omnipotent federal govt. Because of their attitudes toward the South yankees in this area still get looked at scornfully until we get to know them. Maybe even then. Hope this helps.

Tom
12-06-2007, 10:57 AM
At the rate this government is going, selling out the country to "globalism" without our consent, we may need to dust off that flag before too long.

ddog
12-06-2007, 11:30 AM
it's worse than that,
since when does everyone in this country run around with their "feelings on their shoulder"?

big deal, he flies a flag you don't like!
get over it!
is everyone determined to act as if they are 2 years old?

betsall
12-06-2007, 11:38 AM
it's worse than that,
since when does everyone in this country run around with their "feelings on their shoulder"?

big deal, he flies a flag you don't like!
get over it!
is everyone determined to act as if they are 2 years old?

To scold someone(s) about something that makes you angry enough to post about it, makes you a 2 year old also. Don't think so? Then you are simply an ignoramus.

ddog
12-06-2007, 11:43 AM
To scold someone(s) about something that makes you angry enough to post about it, makes you a 2 year old also. Don't think so? Then you are simply an ignoramus.


I am not in any way angry over it.

exclamation points do not denote anger.
And if I were to scold someone I would make that clear.

You would seem to be a prime example of the "feelings on the shoulder" crowd from that reply however not knowing you I will assume you were just playin instead.

GaryG
12-06-2007, 11:45 AM
To scold someone(s) about something that makes you angry enough to post about it, makes you a 2 year old also. Don't think so? Then you are simply an ignoramus.I am sorry that my avatar makes you angry. It isn't coming down either. I thought "slavery" in large letters with a hyperlink in your original post showed a severe lack of historical knowledge.

betsall
12-06-2007, 12:19 PM
I am sorry that my avatar makes you angry. It isn't coming down either. I thought "slavery" in large letters with a hyperlink in your original post showed a severe lack of historical knowledge.

It doesn't make me angry, never has. Alot of people missed the first and only point to this whole thing. You were asked a question about why you displayed that flag by someone else and I waited and waited and waited just to see what your explanation was going to be. There was none. If you had explained Im not sure it would have mattered, maybe.

My opinion is that it represents nothing but to incite and or to promote a hate group or lifestyle. We all know exactly what it represents despite any washing of the true nature of what it stands for.

As for history I know alot about the civil war era, maybe not exactly want you want me to know.The south was defeated, they lost, the country won. I mean dam, talkin about not letting things go.

Lets say what you said about the south being trampled ( in more ways then one)etc etc. So dam what? There are alot of pain from the past that could be avenged. Is that what you want, vengenace?

delayjf
12-06-2007, 12:20 PM
It might interests some on this board to know that at least two prominent Confederate Generals were anti slavery.

R. E. Lee
Stonewall Jackson.

My point is that for most, the main reason for joining the Confederate Cause was in defense of their home State. Politics and loyalty was very provincial in those days.

GaryG
12-06-2007, 12:25 PM
The dam case is closed.....good night now.

betsall
12-06-2007, 12:37 PM
I am not in any way angry over it.

exclamation points do not denote anger.
And if I were to scold someone I would make that clear.

You would seem to be a prime example of the "feelings on the shoulder" crowd from that reply however not knowing you I will assume you were just playin instead.

Who are YOU to spout about what is and what isn't good about one's way to either express themselves or to feel? So what. If the feelings are skin deep then thats what it is or if the feelings are clothed in bitterness or maybe clothed in self betrayal like yourself , so what. You are not the superior mentally one here, be assured of that( compared to others here)lol

Try and focus and stop trying to be a Superior that looks down on lesser or least in your thinking emotinally less fit minded then yourself.

I have weaknessess which I can admit and am strong enough mentally to express them. Amazes me the people who hide, like yourself. I will express myself the way I am, not the way you want me to do.

That's why you explained the sholder thing right. So I could change and be more like you. No thanks.:kiss:

betsall
12-06-2007, 12:51 PM
I am not in any way angry over it.

exclamation points do not denote anger.
And if I were to scold someone I would make that clear.

You would seem to be a prime example of the "feelings on the shoulder" crowd from that reply however not knowing you I will assume you were just playin instead.

Just a follow up.

I might not have the education, background, knowledge, intellegence, forewithall, status etc etc as many here but I will be god dammed if I will let anyone try and display superiority over me by putting me down. Emotion works fine for me.

Besides it's obvious which one's are superior, they are the one's that remain calm, direct you to the facts and show most of all tolerance. Plus their obvious content

ddog
12-06-2007, 01:05 PM
Just a follow up.

I might not have the education, background, knowledge, intellegence, forewithall, status etc etc as many here but I will be god dammed if I will let anyone try and display superiority over me by putting me down. Emotion works fine for me.

Besides it's obvious which one's are superior, they are the one's that remain calm, direct you to the facts and show most of all tolerance. Plus their obvious content

Those are all your opinions and you are of course free to have them and post them here.
But, I am free to ask questions and post my opinion as well.
I would hope without you going into some kind of psyco-analysis mode of whatever you were going on about.

I will just conclude by asking in regards to your first post, if you were asking and asking and asking about the flag why did/does it matter once their was a reply?
is the information locked away from you and could not be found by searching the net,etc.

Why does it or any post that poses questions incite you to such outbursts as the ones you have posted here?

Can you not avoid it if you care to?
By the way I think we are on a voluntary horse racing message board and you were not forced to use it as one would a state capital or some kind of public place where you were forced to go and thus be exposed to the flag.

I don't care if someone on this board were to post a Nazi flag for that matter.


I hope I have not roughed you up too much.

chickenhead
12-06-2007, 01:51 PM
Glad you don't conform but you have to then be ready to defend yourself day after day cause that's just the way it is.

Part of being an adult is not having to explain yourself for no good reason. He doesn't know you from Adam, you're demanding answers, what makes you think he would give a damn?

GaryG
12-06-2007, 02:06 PM
Part of being an adult is not having to explain yourself for no good reason. He doesn't know you from Adam, you're demanding answers, what makes you think he would give a damn?chickie: I was trying to refer betsall to the thread where you and I had quite a detailed discussion about the South and the War a couple of years ago. No matter though....hope you are doing well. Miss the Lock of the Day.

betsall
12-06-2007, 02:08 PM
Those are all your opinions and you are of course free to have them and post them here.
But, I am free to ask questions and post my opinion as well.
I would hope without you going into some kind of psyco-analysis mode of whatever you were going on about.

I will just conclude by asking in regards to your first post, if you were asking and asking and asking about the flag why did/does it matter once their was a reply?
is the information locked away from you and could not be found by searching the net,etc.

Why does it or any post that poses questions incite you to such outbursts as the ones you have posted here?

Can you not avoid it if you care to?
By the way I think we are on a voluntary horse racing message board and you were not forced to use it as one would a state capital or some kind of public place where you were forced to go and thus be exposed to the flag.

I don't care if someone on this board were to post a Nazi flag for that matter.


I hope I have not roughed you up too much.



Stating your opinion along with your so called superior assitude about others personality will get ya what ya want, something you can really count on, me being there for ya. Depend on it.

That's just it, there was no reply to the answer asked except about the time you spouted off(today). To answer the question with a picture with words on it shows a cop out and one can only assume the reason for being silent about one's beliefs.

I totally dropped it concerning Gary once he said he was thru, same as when Grits said she was thru, that's a fact jack, never have posted to either one of them since then, only to the one's still stupid enough to make a stupid statements to me like yourself.

Let's see. Was told Gary's explanation had already been answered but no help in trying to locate it = alot of ass holes not willing to help, makes a person want to endear themselves to people like that, don't ya think. Just imagine all the fun we are going to have from here on out. Your help in finding it was same as them, you are bascially worthless as a helpful human being.

If you see them as outbursts then so be it. I see it more as arguments and releasing one's thoughts ( both ways) of which it's possible to grow even if things arent resolved or agreed upon.

Realize you probably aren't a growing person. No I will not explain the word grow to ya. No it's not about your height. Kinda sad to see people at stages in their life that aren't able to grow, since of course they know it all.

Like I have said before, his flag doesn't really bother me, although it does elicit a thought as many of the avatars do and should. We all know what it represents, don't be silly now. I mean how grand is it to have Just Missed I think is his name to be showing a gun firing off about every couple of seconds, got to love the thought of what that evokes for any sensible human being.

Freedom is still top choice for me, I just deal with things that I don't like like we all do. So you say you can accept people breaking the law like having a Nazi flag on here, wow, you really are the superior citizen that we can look up to. Where as Im no snitch I do frown on people breaking the law.


Rough me up? I don't feel roughed up. :kiss:

Look forward to your superior comments.

betsall
12-06-2007, 02:11 PM
Part of being an adult is not having to explain yourself for no good reason. He doesn't know you from Adam, you're demanding answers, what makes you think he would give a damn?

He doesn't matter, I do. Get it?

I ask and he can do what he wants.

betsall
12-06-2007, 02:19 PM
Part of being an adult is not having to explain yourself for no good reason. He doesn't know you from Adam, you're demanding answers, what makes you think he would give a damn?

I clicked on your eyeball to poke it out. I see you have Rocky. You see yourself like the rocky character?

Tom
12-06-2007, 02:30 PM
Now go and read this and stop whining! :rolleyes::bang::p

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25656&highlight=flag

betsall
12-06-2007, 02:42 PM
Now go and read this and stop whining! :rolleyes::bang::p

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25656&highlight=flag

Dam just when I was starting to ha.. you. Thank Yoiu very much. Right when I get the answer of what I was seeking, I have to go shovel snow.

Again TY and I take back 85 % of anything bad I have said about you. You can of course still loathe me.

ddog
12-06-2007, 02:45 PM
Stating your opinion along with your so called superior assitude about others personality will get ya what ya want, something you can really count on, me being there for ya. Depend on it.

That's just it, there was no reply to the answer asked except about the time you spouted off(today). To answer the question with a picture with words on it shows a cop out and one can only assume the reason for being silent about one's beliefs.

I totally dropped it concerning Gary once he said he was thru, same as when Grits said she was thru, that's a fact jack, never have posted to either one of them since then, only to the one's still stupid enough to make a stupid statements to me like yourself.

Let's see. Was told Gary's explanation had already been answered but no help in trying to locate it = alot of ass holes not willing to help, makes a person want to endear themselves to people like that, don't ya think. Just imagine all the fun we are going to have from here on out. Your help in finding it was same as them, you are bascially worthless as a helpful human being.

If you see them as outbursts then so be it. I see it more as arguments and releasing one's thoughts ( both ways) of which it's possible to grow even if things arent resolved or agreed upon.

Realize you probably aren't a growing person. No I will not explain the word grow to ya. No it's not about your height. Kinda sad to see people at stages in their life that aren't able to grow, since of course they know it all.

Like I have said before, his flag doesn't really bother me, although it does elicit a thought as many of the avatars do and should. We all know what it represents, don't be silly now. I mean how grand is it to have Just Missed I think is his name to be showing a gun firing off about every couple of seconds, got to love the thought of what that evokes for any sensible human being.

Freedom is still top choice for me, I just deal with things that I don't like like we all do. So you say you can accept people breaking the law like having a Nazi flag on here, wow, you really are the superior citizen that we can look up to. Where as Im no snitch I do frown on people breaking the law.


Rough me up? I don't feel roughed up. :kiss:

Look forward to your superior comments.

Well that's a relief, thought I had lost you there for a minute.
You do have a way of making my points better than I can.
Good work.

chickenhead
12-06-2007, 03:21 PM
I clicked on your eyeball to poke it out. I see you have Rocky. You see yourself like the rocky character?

I see myself more as the Paulie character after a week long bender.

Why then do I have a picture of Rocky? Cause he's Paulies buddy...that's who Paulie would have a picture of.

betsall
12-06-2007, 04:10 PM
Well that's a relief, thought I had lost you there for a minute.
You do have a way of making my points better than I can.
Good work.

Glad to help and it's not so much as making you look good but making myself look bad. For someone who is superior I really don't think you get that, I do.

And on another note to make myself look bad in some eyes, oh well and just to prove a point about growing and still it's not about height.

The person I got mad at for correcting my punctuation has actually gotten me to get an online dictionary to better spell my words, he will never know cause he has me on ignore. Tom has finally shown some helpfulness and now has more of my respect.

Others have let this issue go in one way or another. Good Grief, say what you must and let's move on.

PaceAdvantage
12-07-2007, 02:31 AM
All of you who say it's here and don't help other then say search for it are worthless human beings. Your worthless cause you obviously know someone is wanting and all you can do is say look for it.

Worthless, all of ya. Absouletly worthless.:kiss: :kiss: now kiss this...0:lol:Do not, for one second, think that because you started, and are scoring a contest in the horse section, that this will somehow prevent you from being kicked out of here for breaking the TOS (http://www.paceadvantage.com/TOS_PrivacyStatement.html) of this board.

You are dangerously close to being booted....

ljb
12-07-2007, 09:06 AM
Mr. Paceadvantage,
I have done some cursory examination of this thread and have not found a violation of the tos posted by the gentleman you are threatening. He did not use the mack-o-meter did he ? I ask this question because i fear the aristocratic powers that control this board and hope to avoid offending them by posting something similar.
Perhaps you would find it in your merciful heart to point out the offensive post to me.
With Respect and Thanks,
ljb

Bristol
12-07-2007, 09:28 AM
Yeah, alot of brave souls died for the Confederacy so the rich could keep their cheap labor force (which they always have and always will try to do). Slavery was the cause of that war, and the cause of that flag. Makes me think of treason whenever I see it, and I live in the South. And when I see it flying, I regard the people flying it as just plain silly. They would really have to sit down & explain it to me how see it as a matter of pride. Unless of course, they were alive before and during the Civil War.

Grits
12-07-2007, 10:04 AM
Do not, for one second, think that because you started, and are scoring a contest in the horse section, that this will somehow prevent you from being kicked out of here for breaking the TOS (http://www.paceadvantage.com/TOS_PrivacyStatement.html) of this board.

You are dangerously close to being booted....

I was hoping for this, saying to myself, "its just a matter of days, bud--and you're history."

From the get-go. The posts have been offensive, boring, put-downs. Ones that I and others can handle, yet what's the point? Why bother? . . . Pass.

It can generally be deemed uneventful when newbies call longtime members of a messageboard, collectively, worthless.

Greyfox
12-07-2007, 11:00 AM
Do not, for one second, think that because you started, and are scoring a contest in the horse section, that this will somehow prevent you from being kicked out of here for breaking the TOS (http://www.paceadvantage.com/TOS_PrivacyStatement.html) of this board.

You are dangerously close to being booted....


Maybe betsall thinks that he's found The Hidden Immunity Idol. :lol:

Greyfox
12-07-2007, 11:07 AM
Makes me think of treason whenever I see it, and I live in the South. And when I see it flying, I regard the people flying it as just plain silly. .

You live in the South, but your calling card says "Michigan bred."

GaryG
12-07-2007, 11:15 AM
You live in the South, but your calling card says "Michigan bred."Therein lies the difference.....The Atlanta and Raleigh areas are full of transplanted northerners.

46zilzal
12-07-2007, 11:17 AM
The history of the flags right here:http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-csa1.html

Grits
12-07-2007, 11:28 AM
Therein lies the difference.....The Atlanta and Raleigh areas are full of transplanted northerners.

They all came here to escape the cold and the property taxes. In regard to the cold--they're safe. In regard to the property taxes--don't count on that one for too long.

JustMissed
12-07-2007, 12:48 PM
Yeah, alot of brave souls died for the Confederacy so the rich could keep their cheap labor force (which they always have and always will try to do). Slavery was the cause of that war, and the cause of that flag. Makes me think of treason whenever I see it, and I live in the South. And when I see it flying, I regard the people flying it as just plain silly. They would really have to sit down & explain it to me how see it as a matter of pride. Unless of course, they were alive before and during the Civil War.

After this got started I got out my wife's old books about the history of the American Civil War.

I knew this but had forgotten that both Union and Confederate men could avoid conscription(the draft as called back them) by hiring someone to stand in for them. Also they could pay a fee of $300 to avoid a one time conscription.

To further take advantage of the poor Southern man, Mississippi passed an exemption law that made it possible for slave owner's to avoid conscription altogether.

"The "Twenty-Negro" law to which the quotation above refers was a law that exempted anyone who owned twenty or more human beings as property to be exempt from Confederate military conscription. This caused a great deal of anger among ordinary whites because of the blatant class nature of the law. The war was being fought at huge costs to preserve the planters' slave system, but the very planters who stood to benefit the most from achieving that goal were exempt from fighting for their new "country."

The "Twenty-negro" law was in part the basis for the secession of Jones County, Mississippi which created the State of Jones County which was the basis of the book and movie entitled TAPROOTS by James Street.

What I find interesting is things haven't really changed very much since the 1860's. The wealthy and powerfull still send the sons and daughters of the common man into harms way for no other valid reason than to protect and grow their personal and corporate wealth and power.

What is amazing is that people are still so stupid as to let this go on today!

Fly your flag, call Ron Paul a Martian if you will, let Dick and George and Billary do with you as they please.

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn, anymore.

JM :(

Tom
12-07-2007, 12:54 PM
What I find interesting is things haven't really changed very much since the 1860's. The wealthy and powerfull still send the sons and daughters of the common man into harms way for no other valid reason than to protect and grow their personal and corporate wealth and power.

JM :(


I finds that very insulting to the brave men and women who, by their own choice, have volunteered to risk life and limb for thier beliefs.

The Magenta Donkey
12-07-2007, 12:56 PM
I finds that very insulting to the brave men and women who, by their own choice, have volunteered to risk life and limb for thier beliefs.
Yeah the issue is that black and white isn't it? :lol:

No pun intended.

Greyfox
12-07-2007, 12:58 PM
The wealthy and powerfull still send the sons and daughters of the common man into harms way for no other valid reason than to protect and grow their personal and corporate wealth and power.


JM :(

Sorry that you sound like you've almost given up JM.
However, the above quote isn't quite true.
You are correct that the majority of America's boots on the ground come
from the lower classes and poverty stricken situations. But they do enlist "byChoice!"
The wealthy and powerful are not sending them there as such.

JustMissed
12-07-2007, 01:03 PM
I finds that very insulting to the brave men and women who, by their own choice, have volunteered to risk life and limb for thier beliefs.

That John McCain crap want fly with me.

I served as well as my father and his forefathers.

If one of my son's were to get drafted with the leadership we have today I would carry them on my back to Canada if necessary.

Knowing what we know now about this trumpted up war, if you would encourage anyone to fight and die for Bushco, you are not only a fool but a damn fool.

JM :mad:

JustMissed
12-07-2007, 01:22 PM
Sorry that you sound like you've almost given up JM.
However, the above quote isn't quite true.
You are correct that the majority of America's boots on the ground come
from the lower classes and poverty stricken situations. But they do enlist "byChoice!"
The wealthy and powerful are not sending them there as such.

You might find this interesting from a Military Times poll:

" Published:
Dec. 29, 2006
Down on the war
Poll: More troops unhappy with Bush’s course in Iraq

By Robert Hodierne
Senior managing editor

The American military — once a staunch supporter of President Bush and the Iraq war — has grown in creasingly pessimistic about chances for victory.

For the first time, more troops disapprove of the president’s han dling of the war than approve of it. Barely one-third of service members approve of the way the president is handling the war, ac cording to the 2006 Military Times Poll.

When the military was feeling most optimistic about the war — in 2004 — 83 percent of poll re spondents thought success in Iraq was likely. This year, that number has shrunk to 50 percent.

Only 35 percent of the military members polled this year said they approve of the way President Bush is handling the war, while 42 percent said they disapproved. The president’s approval rating among the military is only slight ly higher than for the population as a whole. In 2004, when his popularity peaked, 63 percent of the military approved of Bush’s handling of the war. While ap proval of the president’s war lead ership has slumped, his overall approval remains high among the military.

Just as telling, in this year’s poll only 41 percent of the military said the U.S. should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place, down from 65 percent in 2003. That closely reflects the beliefs of the general population today — 45 percent agreed in a recent USA Today/Gallup poll.

Professor David Segal, director of the Center for Research on Mil itary Organization at the Univer sity of Maryland, was not sur prised by the changing attitude within the military.

“They’re seeing more casualties and fatalities and less progress,” Segal said.

He added, “Part of what we’re seeing is a recognition that the in telligence that led to the war was wrong.”[end of partial quote]

The full article is very interesting and very revealing. I realize it is dated before the so called "surge", but I don't believe I have seen John McCain walking around Bagdad lately without his flak jacket and surrounded by a company of Special Forces.

JM

Show Me the Wire
12-07-2007, 01:28 PM
That John McCain crap want fly with me.

I served as well as my father and his forefathers.

If one of my son's were to get drafted with the leadership we have today I would carry them on my back to Canada if necessary.

Knowing what we know now about this trumpted up war, if you would encourage anyone to fight and die for Bushco, you are not only a fool but a damn fool.

JM :mad:


Speaking of class injustice. How about the poor Irish immigrants taken directly from the ships crossing the Atlantic and being conscripted immediately into the Northern army. These souls had no choice.

FYI the rich in the north could also opt out of conscription for a fee, unfortunately the lower class could not pay the fee and had to give their lives, limbs, etc for the preservation of the Union the rich and powerful wanted to preserve.

46zilzal
12-07-2007, 01:31 PM
Same today. Fat cats sacrifice the pawns without a care in the world. VERY few of their lot are slaughtered for the corporations.

JustMissed
12-07-2007, 01:32 PM
Speaking of class injustice. How about the poor Irish immigrants taken directly from the ships crossing the Atlantic and being conscripted immediately into the Northern army. These souls had no choice.

FYI the rich in the north could also opt out of conscription for a fee, unfortunately the lower class could not pay the fee and had to give their lives, limbs, etc for the preservation of the Union the rich and powerful wanted to preserve.

SMTI, you must have missed this from my post.

"I knew this but had forgotten that both Union and Confederate men could avoid conscription(the draft as called back them) by hiring someone to stand in for them. Also they could pay a fee of $300 to avoid a one time conscription."

JM

Greyfox
12-07-2007, 01:32 PM
Thanks everyone for the interesting bits of history.
But today's history is quite different, with the operative word being
"conscription."
Sorry, but this war, right or wrong, the infantry is their by choice.

Show Me the Wire
12-07-2007, 01:35 PM
Yes, I did misread the sentence with the word "Union" in it.

Tom
12-07-2007, 01:39 PM
That John McCain crap want fly with me.

I served as well as my father and his forefathers.

If one of my son's were to get drafted with the leadership we have today I would carry them on my back to Canada if necessary.

Knowing what we know now about this trumpted up war, if you would encourage anyone to fight and die for Bushco, you are not only a fool but a damn fool.

JM :mad:

Can the insults, dude - first of all there is no draft. Nobody goes ther unless they enlist by thier own choice. So now YOU are calling our troops fools and damn fools?

Tom
12-07-2007, 01:40 PM
You are correct that the majority of America's boots on the ground come
from the lower classes and poverty stricken situations.
The wealthy and powerful are not sending them there as such.

I don't buy that premise. What data do you have back that up?

The Magenta Donkey
12-07-2007, 01:41 PM
Yes the men and women of the armed service are there by choice. It's not a tough decision for a large number of them who come from poverty. Who wouldn't want their college paid for?

Alas, a large number of our men and women joined the National Guard. How many of them actually thought they would be sent overseas for multiple tours of duty? It's borderline criminal what's happened to them.

Tom
12-07-2007, 01:42 PM
You might find this interesting from a Military Times poll:

" Published:
Dec. 29, 2006
Down on the war
Poll: More troops unhappy with Bush’s course in Iraq



The course has changed. Things are better. Got anything newer than a year old?

JustMissed
12-07-2007, 01:43 PM
Thanks everyone for the interesting bits of history.
But today's history is quite different, with the operative word being
"conscription."
Sorry, but this war, right or wrong, the infantry is their by choice.

You are correct. We have a voluntary army.

My point was that the rich and powerful promote these wars for personal profit regardless of who does the fighting or dying.

JM

46zilzal
12-07-2007, 01:44 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2223701,00.html

calls it what it is: a side show much like a circus.

The nationalist Shia cleric, Moqtada al-Sadr, has called a unilateral ceasefire, which is largely holding while the US troop "surge" is under way. The Sunni resistance is doing much the same, though without formally declaring it. As I was told by a senior resistance spokesman in Damascus, many nationalist groups have reduced their attacks in western Baghdad and parts of Anbar province while regrouping and retraining.

It is not over and the fat lady won't even sing then.

Tom
12-07-2007, 01:52 PM
Same today. Fat cats sacrifice the pawns without a care in the world. VERY few of their lot are slaughtered for the corporations.

You have posted sheer stupidity before, but this is a new low for even you.

Greyfox
12-07-2007, 02:05 PM
I don't buy that premise. What data do you have back that up?

You're right Tom to not buy it, just as I am to buy it.
The data from the Army has not been particularly easy to track down.
Let's not forget that figures lie and liers figure.
I've found a site supporting your belief. It's at:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm
I've found a site supporting my belief. It's at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/national/class/MILITARY-FINAL.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

My own observation is:
1. the Working Class is the most predominant group.
In that class, there are often 2 incomes in the home, hence it may appear that income and recruiting aren't related. Yeah.

2. Both sites above indicate that the very, very poor, are not signing up.

ljb
12-07-2007, 04:50 PM
The course has changed. Things are better. Got anything newer than a year old?
Here is some newer stuff Tom, Dated Dec. 7, 07
Talks about the military giving up on Bush.
WASHINGTON -- Families with ties to the military, long a reliable source of support for wartime presidents, disapprove of President Bush and his handling of the war in Iraq, with a majority concluding the invasion was not worth it, a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/timespoll/la-na-militpoll7dec07,0,4843202.story?coll=la-home-center

ljb
12-07-2007, 05:00 PM
this quote will help us all understand why some here must display the neo=nazi flag.
The Republican Party was captured in the 1870s by the railroad barons and turned from the reform party that Abe Lincoln had run on the platform of, into the party of inherited wealth and corporate interests. Since Reagan, they have successfully reinvented themselves as the party of soft bigotry and "NASCAR average guys." They have gone out of their way to reach out mostly to frightened disenfranchised white males and scare them. Take Rush Limbaugh with his supposedly funny ad about the Hillary Clinton testicle lock box that you now can get for your husband.

GaryG
12-07-2007, 05:05 PM
this quote will help us all understand why some here must display the neo=nazi flag.:lol: :lol: :lol:

46zilzal
12-07-2007, 06:24 PM
John Fogarty beat me to the punch a couple of stupid wars ago with the song Fortunate Son.

Some folks are born
made to wave the flag,
Ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail to the chief",
they point the cannon right at you.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no senator's son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.
Some folks are born
silver spoon in hand,
Lord don't they help themselves.
But when the tax man comes to the door,
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no millionaire's son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.
Some folks inherit
star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war.
And when you ask them,
"How much should we give?"
They only answer "More! More! More!"
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no military son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.

delayjf
12-07-2007, 07:01 PM
How many of them actually thought they would be sent overseas for multiple tours of duty? It's borderline criminal what's happened to them.
They knew the job was dangerous when they took it.

hcap
12-07-2007, 07:29 PM
SoTom said: The course has changed. Things are better. Got anything newer than a year old?December 7, 2007
Here is some newer stuff Tom.
Talks about the military giving up on Bush.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/timespoll/la-na-militpoll7dec07,0,4843202.story?coll=la-home-center
Tom has his fingers stuck up his ears. Ignorance is bliss, practiced dilligently.
I guess the last time he linked to, or supported any of his world views with something other than his so-called debating skills, did not hold up under scrutiny Anyway, another snip from the story link ljb posted.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/...=la-home-center

December 7, 2007
Nearly six out of every 10 military families disapprove of Bush's job performance and the way he has run the war, rating him only slightly better than the general population does.

And among those families with soldiers, sailors and Marines who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, 60% say that the war in Iraq was not worth the cost, the same result as all adults surveyed.
Mr bravery himself, Tom puts any one who dares to stir up facts contrary to his preconceived views on his infant like iggy. Then roars and feels proud. 25,000 posts, and still going in circles he draws in his own mind.

JustRalph
12-07-2007, 07:57 PM
They all came here to escape the cold and the property taxes. In regard to the cold--they're safe. In regard to the property taxes--don't count on that one for too long.

Not if the S. Carolina model takes hold.............


http://southcarolina.realestaterama.com/cut-in-property-tax-seen-as-boon-for-sc-homes/

Greyfox
12-07-2007, 08:13 PM
December 7, 2007


December 7, 2007
Mr bravery himself, Tom puts any one who dares to stir up facts contrary to his preconceived views on his infant like iggy. .

Tom and I have disagreed on lots of issues. Yet I have learned a lot from his viewpoints. I don't think that I'm on his iggy and I don't think that anyone gets there until they earn their way on. Thank God he's on this board.
I also glean lots from your posts hcap.
Not sure what this has to do with the flag issue though.

JustRalph
12-07-2007, 08:28 PM
John Fogarty beat me to the punch a couple of stupid wars ago with the song Fortunate Son.

Some folks are born
made to wave the flag,
Ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail to the chief",
they point the cannon right at you.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no senator's son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.
Some folks are born
silver spoon in hand,
Lord don't they help themselves.
But when the tax man comes to the door,
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no millionaire's son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.
Some folks inherit
star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war.
And when you ask them,
"How much should we give?"
They only answer "More! More! More!"
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no military son.
It ain't me,
it ain't me.
I ain't no fortunate one.


Interesting tidbit about ole John............ he joined the reserves to get out of Vietnam.........does that ring a bell?

Tom
12-07-2007, 11:42 PM
Tom and I have disagreed on lots of issues. Yet I have learned a lot from his viewpoints. I don't think that I'm on his iggy and I don't think that anyone gets there until they earn their way on. Thank God he's on this board.
I also glean lots from your posts hcap.
Not sure what this has to do with the flag issue though.

I respect you and your opinions, and enjoy our discussions. You will never go on iggy because you are an intelligent person with honest opinons and act like an adult. Unlike the other two wastes breath.
I wish you would not quote that troll because my IGGY doesn't filter out the crap from him andhis puppy dog.:rolleyes: I glean lots from hcap's crap as well - ergo the IGGY. Or should I say, the "infant like IGGY." Try this, hiccups - I choose to not interact with serveral who are complete zeros in my book. You have zero to offer - on any topic ever. You and your puppy are vile, twisted people better off ignored. But I keep seeing these quotes from you and RinTin Tin about my ignoring you. Actually, it is rewarding to know I am causing you two such conern. Talk about infant like - it is you two for sure. Try growing up. I have taken the adult acting by ignoring you qs nothing comes of it but arguments and thread hijacking. You can't seem stop your childish attacks. Talk to your dog.

Greyfox
12-07-2007, 11:45 PM
I respect you and your opinions, and enjoy our discussions. You will never go on iggy because you are an intelligent person with honest opinons and act like an adult. Unlike the other two wastes breath.
.

In deepest respect, thanks Tom.
Greyfox

ljb
12-07-2007, 11:52 PM
Me too Tom, me too ?

46zilzal
12-08-2007, 02:37 AM
Interesting tidbit about ole John............ he joined the reserves to get out of Vietnam.........does that ring a bell?
A very smart move on his part as he is alive to tell us about it and not worm fodder like so many others.

PaceAdvantage
12-08-2007, 03:54 AM
Alas, a large number of our men and women joined the National Guard. How many of them actually thought they would be sent overseas for multiple tours of duty? It's borderline criminal what's happened to them.It doesn't matter what they THOUGHT would happen to them in the Guard. COMBAT was always a possibility. That's why they call it the ARMED FORCES.

A quick glance at the history of this country would show any potential National Guardsman that the chances for seeing combat are NOT out of the realm of possibility:

During World War I, the National Guard provided 40% of the US Army's combat forces. Guard membership doubled in 1940, and provided 19 divisions during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), of which the National Guard units were among the first to deploy overseas and the first to fight. Later, 138,000 National Guardsmen were deployed for Korea, and many other smaller deployments. During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam. After September 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11), the Army National Guard has been used extensively in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) and Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq).

hcap
12-08-2007, 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by JustMissed
You might find this interesting from a Military Times poll:

" Published:
Dec. 29, 2006
Down on the war
Poll: More troops unhappy with Bush’s course in Iraq
The course has changed. Things are better. Got anything newer than a year old?
Here is the full article from the LA Times. Reprinted. Look at the summary.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/07/5694/

Published on Friday, December 7, 2007

"Nearly six out of every 10 military families disapprove of Bush’s job performance and the way he has run the war, rating him only slightly better than the general population does.

And among those families with soldiers, sailors and Marines who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, 60% say that the war in Iraq was not worth the cost, the same result as all adults surveyed."

"When military families were asked which party could be trusted to do a better job of handling issues related to them, respondents divided almost evenly: 39% said Democrats and 35% chose Republicans. The general population feels similarly: 39% for Democrats and 31% for Republicans."

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/wp-content/photos/1207_03.gif

Is Tom brave enough to debate the substance of this issue after declaring with all the certainty of a knee-jerking hack the opposite of what this article points out? How about a contrary link? Or at least come out from under your infantile iggy. Not too much to ask from a MASTERdeBATER

PaceAdvantage
12-08-2007, 02:34 PM
Not too much to ask from a MASTERdeBATEREverything was great up until this point. Are you testing me on purpose?

Grits
12-08-2007, 03:05 PM
Everything was great up until this point.

I'm glad someone--besides me, thinks so.

Too sensitive for me, no. Too crude for me, yes.

Sorry the thread ended in such a manner.

hcap
12-08-2007, 07:43 PM
Tom Quoting Greyfox in post # 90.........
Originally Posted by Greyfox
Tom and I have disagreed on lots of issues. Yet I have learned a lot from his viewpoints. I don't think that I'm on his iggy and I don't think that anyone gets there until they earn their way on. Thank God he's on this board.
I also glean lots from your posts hcap.
Not sure what this has to do with the flag issue though.
Then tha a**H*le sez...
I respect you and your opinions, and enjoy our discussions. You will never go on iggy because you are an intelligent person with honest opinons and act like an adult. Unlike the other two wastes breath.
I wish you would not quote that troll because my IGGY doesn't filter out the crap from him andhis puppy dog. I glean lots from hcap's crap as well - ergo the IGGY. Or should I say, the "infant like IGGY." Try this, hiccups - I choose to not interact with serveral who are complete zeros in my book. You have zero to offer - on any topic ever. You and your puppy are vile, twisted people better off ignored. But I keep seeing these quotes from you and RinTin Tin about my ignoring you. Actually, it is rewarding to know I am causing you two such conern. Talk about infant like - it is you two for sure. Try growing up. I have taken the adult acting by ignoring you qs nothing comes of it but arguments and thread hijacking. You can't seem stop your childish attacks. Perhaps masterbation would calm you down. Talk to your dog.It seems Tom is not the only Ostrich.
Or maybe you have Tom on iggy?

Should I say favoritism instead?

__________________

Marshall Bennett
12-08-2007, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE=hcap]Here is the full article from the LA Times. Reprinted. Look at the summary.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/07/5694/

Published on Friday, December 7, 2007

"Nearly six out of every 10 military families disapprove of Bush’s job performance and the way he has run the war, rating him only slightly better than the general population does.

And among those families with soldiers, sailors and Marines who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, 60% say that the war in Iraq was not worth the cost, the same result as all adults surveyed."

"When military families were asked which party could be trusted to do a better job of handling issues related to them, respondents divided almost evenly: 39% said Democrats and 35% chose Republicans. The general population feels similarly: 39% for Democrats and 31% for Republicans."

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/wp-content/photos/1207_03.gif

Is Tom brave enough to debate the substance of this issue after declaring with all the certainty of a knee-jerking hack the opposite of what this article points out? How about a contrary link? Or at least come out from under your infantile iggy. Not too much to ask from a MASTERdeBATER[/QUOTE
6 out of 10 ain't bad ... considering 8 out of 10 is the American avg.

hcap
12-08-2007, 08:45 PM
6 out of 10 ain't bad ... considering 8 out of 10 is the American avg.You repeat my entire post and then say this??
Exactly what is your point? Are you saying 80% of non-military families disagree and gee ain't it swell that Military families hate him less?

Steve 'StatMan'
12-08-2007, 08:56 PM
You repeat my entire post and then say this??
Exactly what is your point? Are you saying 80% of non-military families disagree and gee ain't it swell that Military families hate him less?

So, what was their opintion on the Southern Flag? :liar: :p

equicom
12-08-2007, 09:05 PM
Couldn't a descendants of a Nazi's say the same thing, having fought bravely under their flag.

Actually this is a common misconception, probably engendered through WW2 propaganda to stir up enough anti-German sentiment to justify going to war (keep in mind that everyone at the higher levels of Government profited immensely from going to war, only the country was harmed, not the individuals pulling the strings).

In fact, many people in the regular forces of Germany were opposed to Nazism, and really either in fact or in spirit, were fighting under a German flag. The problem is that to say so would get you shot, and most people are not that stupid or brave (take your choice!).

It is just the same as in today's war in Iraq. Many servicemen do not agree that they should be there, or that the war is justified, and they don't necessarily stand behind the philosophy that has put them there, but it is their job and they do it. They may not agree that it is in their country's best interests, but they serve their country regardless. This can be a good thing and a bad thing. It is a bad thing because it means that sometimes unconscionable acts can be justified in the name of patriotism, and a good thing because it means the military can be relied upon to do what is required of them without putting their own personal agenda ahead of their duty. None of the generals at the Pentagon, for example, are likely to try and assassinate the President, as was the case in WW2 for the Germans.

Certainly many of Hitler's generals were opposed to his ideas, and this is one of the key reasons why they lost the war. Hitler, for example, refused to attack Britain in the early stages of the war, and he also attacked Russia, both things that his officers objected to (if they had invaded Britain in 1938 or 1939, they almost certainly would have won, no matter how much people hated their ideals).

Hitler gradually disposed of his best generals until all he had left around him were incompetent "yes men" who didn't have the balls to object to his lunacy. In fact, many of the things Hitler is accused of were not his own beliefs, he didn't for example originally want to execute deaf people (one of his closest friends and most trusted advisers was deaf) but he went along with the idea of killing them once it started happening, and in the end found ways to justify these things to the German people.

The disturbing parallel today is that you will see an awful lot of "yes men" about, while the people more inclined to say "no" are quietly fading away. Colin Powell is a good example.

People are being ruled with an ever-hardening iron fist (gradually, slowly, slowly) in the name of anti-terrorism, exactly the same platform that Hitler used to gain power and eventually become one of the most powerful and feared men in the world. Hitler justified attacking Poland by staging "terrorist attacks" against "innocent Germans" and then blaming the attacks on Polish jews (which was untrue).

Eventually any local disorder in the areas near the border were declared terrorist attacks, and public sentiment was stirred up against Poland and against jews, even though the dominant religion in Poland is catholicism. Jews were then, as now, very much a minority.

This eventually escalated to a point where people became suspicious of all jews (thinking they might be agents or spies for the terrorists, or even terrorists themselves) which was so effective that neighbor became willing to turn against neighbor, friends stopped speaking to one another, and fear became the order of the day.

Whenever fear is predominant within a society, it allows the government to step in as a "protective parent" and take care of things. One of the ways they do this is to introduce harsh laws that under normal circumstances would bring widespread criticism and objection, but in the climate of widespread fear you will hardly hear a peep. The objections will be drowned out by the roar of approval from the common herd.

Simply replace the word "jew" with "muslim" and you will find exactly the same fear and resentment today, especially in the lower echelons of society.

Marshall Bennett
12-08-2007, 09:29 PM
You repeat my entire post and then say this??
Exactly what is your point? Are you saying 80% of non-military families disagree and gee ain't it swell that Military families hate him less?
Does it matter ? We could be winning the war with 0 casualties and you would
" hate " the man anyway !!

chickenhead
12-08-2007, 09:33 PM
tsk tsk MagDonk.

hopefully you removed it yourself.

Steve 'StatMan'
12-08-2007, 09:34 PM
Color Magenta gone - nasty post was removed.

lilmegahertz
12-08-2007, 09:38 PM
ok...um...where were we? Nazi flags and bush haters right?


Anyhoooo.....

hcap
12-08-2007, 09:48 PM
Does it matter ? We could be winning the war with 0 casualties and you would
" hate " the man anyway !!This makes no sense. Evidently you feel uncomfortable with the LA Times/Bloomberg poll, and cannot argue your case in lieu of contrary facts.

This is typical of many RIGHT/Left discussions here on off-topic.
With some exceptions, the right here will dismiss substantiated points of view from the other side by sing song repetitions, stamping their feet hoping the facts will quietly go away.

PaceAdvantage
12-09-2007, 01:32 AM
Or maybe you have Tom on iggy?

Should I say favoritism instead?

__________________Nope, and nope. In fact, I've deleted a number of posts from Tom since I instituted a more vigilant board policy over the last few days. I must have missed that one....Tom was smart enough not to BOLD the questionable parts, unlike you....

PaceAdvantage
12-09-2007, 01:35 AM
I love it that I call for an "off-topic" enema, and then just like that, these people (like TMD) start flushing themselves away....makes my job SO MUCH easier....:lol:

Kind of like Libya and Iran after the Iraq invasion....

Marshall Bennett
12-09-2007, 08:18 AM
This makes no sense. Evidently you feel uncomfortable with the LA Times/Bloomberg poll, and cannot argue your case in lieu of contrary facts.

This is typical of many RIGHT/Left discussions here on off-topic.
With some exceptions, the right here will dismiss substantiated points of view from the other side by sing song repetitions, stamping their feet hoping the facts will quietly go away.
I don't stomp my feet over any political issue . I respect your opinion whether I agree or not . If I choose not to argue endlessly , doesn't mean I've abandoned my own opinion and hope any facts go away !!

Grits
12-09-2007, 09:07 AM
I love it that I call for an "off-topic" enema, and then just like that, these people (like TMD) start flushing themselves away....makes my job SO MUCH easier....:lol:


PA, this guy was a real piece of work. Thank you for sending him back from whenceforth he came. Straight to the sewer he crawled out of. I had the good fortune of being on the receiving end of 3 or 4 (uninitiated) messages from him. TRASH in the worst way.

I hope he doesn't show again under another name.

ljb
12-09-2007, 09:31 AM
Nope, and nope. In fact, I've deleted a number of posts from Tom since I instituted a more vigilant board policy over the last few days. I must have missed that one....Tom was smart enough not to BOLD the questionable parts, unlike you....
Wow, now we have a new guideline. Some things are acceptable if they are not BOLD. Which leads me to say The bias is becoming more obvious evey day. :D

hcap
12-09-2007, 09:44 AM
My remark about Tom was in response to his claim that some posters-mostly those that disagreed with him- could not use logic and consequently out of weakness they resorted to posting external links, which NOT surprisingly, he never did. Therefore his grasp of logical thinking alone requiring no facts or reality, moved him into the realm of a master debater.

Two pregnant pun-wanting words.

equicom
12-09-2007, 11:35 AM
Well, it seems to me that if you can successfully argue with several people at once, the skill must be known as "mass debating".

Maybe they could have a correspondence course for this:

"What are you so happy about?"

"Oh, I just got my Mass Debating Certificate!"

"Shit! You mean we have to apply for a license to do that now? Damn that Coulter woman!"

:D

hcap
12-09-2007, 11:44 AM
Ann Coulter is an aid for some of the righties on this board in the art of "Mass Debating".

Go figure. No accounting for taste. :ThmbDown:

PaceAdvantage
12-09-2007, 02:43 PM
Wow, now we have a new guideline. Some things are acceptable if they are not BOLD. Which leads me to say The bias is becoming more obvious evey day. :DActually, because Tom did not bold it, I MISSED IT, meaning, I don't read EVERY SINGLE POST WORD FOR WORD, EVERY DAY, as that is IMPOSSIBLE on days where I AM PRESSED FOR TIME.

But, when you BOLD words, like HCAP DID, it tends to catch my eye (which is the whole reason for BOLD in the first place, is it not)?

Are you really this shallow, or do you have the ability to pick up on things that are NOT SPELLED OUT FOR YOU letter by letter?

Do I really have to make these kinds of replies? Of course I don't.

However, LJB sees me as an adversary, thus his last reply...

Tom
12-09-2007, 03:40 PM
As you can see, PA did find it and did delete it. Fair and balanced. Ya know what else, I was wrong to post it, and I am not whining like a baby that PA deleted it. It's called being an adult. You and your master should try it sometime. Your constant whining and crying is really pathetic. It is like having to listen to the commotion at the kids table at Thanksgiving dinner.


...Try growing up. I have taken the adult acting by ignoring you qs nothing comes of it but arguments and thread hijacking. You can't seem stop your childish attacks. Talk to your dog. __________________
For those of you obsessed with winning, remember this: at the trap, it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.
Last edited by PaceAdvantage : Today at 01:36 AM.

equicom
12-11-2007, 05:39 PM
Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, there is freedom of speech, even if people don't necessarily agree with what you have to say.

Tom
12-11-2007, 09:36 PM
This isn't the rest of the world. It is PA' site - he pays the bills and we are all GUESTS here. Sometimes we push the envelope :rolleyes: but we all signed the TOS agreement and have to live by it. We are all free to speak elsewhere. This place is far more lenient than many. And he doesn't delete or close threads because he disagrees with us, only for our behavior or language.

Greyfox
12-11-2007, 10:55 PM
This isn't the rest of the world. It is PA' site - he pays the bills and we are all GUESTS here. Sometimes we push the envelope :rolleyes: but we all signed the TOS agreement and have to live by it. We are all free to speak elsewhere. This place is far more lenient than many. And he doesn't delete or close threads because he disagrees with us, only for our behavior or language.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Tom. ...not that we would ever totally agree, but we would toast each other. Excellent.

JustRalph
12-12-2007, 12:07 AM
Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, there is freedom of speech, even if people don't necessarily agree with what you have to say.

What the hell are you talking about? Elsewhere? Freedom of speech is guaranteed in only one place.............The United States. And your freedom of speech argument is not valid in a private setting. Your right to free speech is only applicable if a government entity is trying to surpress it. The right to Free Speech is only a right in a public setting. Your employer, or any private entity (such as this board) can restrict your rights of speech.

46zilzal
12-12-2007, 12:31 AM
What the hell are you talking about? Elsewhere? Freedom of speech is guaranteed in only one place.............The United States.
Exclusivism....As if things are ONE way in ONE country to have no equivalent ANYWHERE ELSE in this entire world. Exclusivism....ONLY one place has this when they in fact do not. Phony argument without a basis in logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech
Freedom of speech is a right in civilized countries all over the globe Norway, France, England, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Australia and countless others.

The right to freedom of speech is guaranteed under international law through numerous human rights instruments, notably under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, although implementation remains lacking in many countries. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes preferred, since the right is not confined to verbal speech but is understood to protect any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

equicom
12-12-2007, 12:49 AM
Your employer, or any private entity (such as this board) can restrict your rights of speech.

I can walk up to somebody and punch 'em right in the face. Just because I <i>can</i> do something doesn't mean I <i>should</i> do it.

Anyway, if people are obviously posting bad things that should not be posted, like racist or hateful things, then by all means censor away if it makes you happy.

But I would suggest that deleting a post or banning somebody just because they happen to disagree with your views, have views which conflict with yours, or because they happen to be critical of something you have done or said, well... that would just be immature.

Nor by any means does America have a monopoly on free speech as you imply, and furthermore you cannot have free speech in a country that has more lawyers than icecream van drivers... it is a known fact.

PaceAdvantage
12-12-2007, 01:01 AM
But I would suggest that deleting a post or banning somebody just because they happen to disagree with your views, have views which conflict with yours, or because they happen to be critical of something you have done or said, well... that would just be immature.And rest assured that has never happened here. If it did, there would be about 3 people left posting....

46zilzal
12-12-2007, 01:06 AM
NEVER??? sure about that?

PaceAdvantage
12-12-2007, 01:16 AM
NEVER??? sure about that?Yes sir. To my knowledge, nobody has ever been kicked off simply because they disagreed with my views, had views which conflicted with mine, or they happened to be critical of something I have done or said.....and please don't mention Amazin, 'cause he was never kicked off....

The only reason people are kicked off is if they are a habitual breaker of TOS (http://www.paceadvantage.com/TOS_PrivacyStatement.html)rules....

JustRalph
12-12-2007, 01:17 AM
Exclusivism....As if things are ONE way in ONE country to have no equivalent ANYWHERE ELSE in this entire world. Exclusivism....ONLY one place has this when they in fact do not. Phony argument without a basis in logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech
Freedom of speech is a right in civilized countries all over the globe Norway, France, England, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Australia and countless others.

The right to freedom of speech is guaranteed under international law through numerous human rights instruments, notably under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, although implementation remains lacking in many countries. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes preferred, since the right is not confined to verbal speech but is understood to protect any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

you're right........ it is just as strong as the U.S. Constitution. yeah right...........

From Wiki: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (abbreviated UDHR) is an advisory declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly (A/RES/217, 10 December 1948 at Palais de Chaillot, Paris). It consists of 30 articles which outline the view of the General Assembly on the human rights guaranteed to all people. The International Bill of Human Rights consists of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

I am sure the U.N. could enforce this ........... they can't enforce their own rules. Find me something that has lasted 200+ years and been upheld by the Supreme Court and lower courts countless times.

I am sure that those who are denied their rights can appeal directly to the U.N. huh? Get real.........I will take the U.S. Constitution over an Advisory declaration if you don't mind................ :bang:

46zilzal
12-12-2007, 01:19 AM
Exclusivism never dies, even with tons of reality dumped on it. It takes international perspective to realize that it is a dream created by other exclusionists.

Tom
12-12-2007, 07:41 AM
Exclusivism never dies, even with tons of reality dumped on it. It takes international perspective to realize that it is a dream created by other exclusionists.

Just having the right to free speech doens't mean you won'tget killed for exercising it. Hmmmmmm, Iraq, for one. Back in their "good old days."

46zilzal
12-12-2007, 11:15 AM
Just having the right to free speech doens't mean you won'tget killed for exercising it. Hmmmmmm, Iraq, for one. Back in their "good old days."
Changing the subject and completely off the mark AS USUAL.

JustRalph
12-12-2007, 05:11 PM
The U.N. recommended and advised that no one buy oil from Iraq for years. But guess what happened?

equicom
12-12-2007, 05:44 PM
And rest assured that has never happened here. If it did, there would be about 3 people left posting....

Yes, I appreciate that. But I sense things would be very different if some other guy was in charge.

equicom
12-12-2007, 05:51 PM
Just having the right to free speech doens't mean you won'tget killed for exercising it. Hmmmmmm, Iraq, for one. Back in their "good old days."

When did Iraq ever have freedom of speech? I don't think there is any Middle Eastern country that ever has, apart from maybe the UAE, but even that is very doubtful. I'd love to see one of those sidewalk evangelists (with the microphone and placard proclaiming "Jesus loves you and because you're a sinner he'll make sure you burn in hell") setting up in downtown Markesh. Phew, that would take about three days to clean up.

And it is very unlikely that the new government installed by the US in Iraq is going to be giving its citizens the "democracy" that GWB keeps going on about all the time in his speeches. It is very unlikely.

Tom
12-12-2007, 10:26 PM
The right to freedom of speech is guaranteed under international law through numerous human rights instruments, notably under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, although implementation remains lacking in many countries.


For you and 46 - this is what HE said. I pointed out that having the right and actually being able to use it are not the same. He used the argument to put down the US, as his usual, then denies it when it suits him. He is funny like that. Funny starnge and funny Ha Ha.

equicom
12-12-2007, 11:57 PM
Those "universal rights" only apply in countries that recognize them. Interestingly, the US is apparently one of the few countries that is not a signatory to the charter, because they apparently disagree with some parts of it.

JustRalph
12-13-2007, 12:40 AM
Those "universal rights" only apply in countries that recognize them. Interestingly, the US is apparently one of the few countries that is not a signatory to the charter, because they apparently disagree with some parts of it.

Why sign when you have 200 years of the most important document ever drafted?

PaceAdvantage
12-13-2007, 01:59 AM
Yes, I appreciate that. But I sense things would be very different if some other guy was in charge.Different how? And are you offering?

46zilzal
12-13-2007, 11:40 AM
Why sign when you have 200 years of the most important document ever drafted?
Many would argue that the Magna Carta, the first document of it's kind, is right up there in a tie.

equicom
12-14-2007, 08:54 AM
Why sign when you have 200 years of the most important document ever drafted?

Because your government doesn't see it as an important document any more. That's why.

GaryG
12-14-2007, 09:05 AM
Because your government doesn't see it as an important document any more. That's why.Is this not your govt as well, or are you from Uzbekistan?

Tom
12-14-2007, 10:12 AM
:lol::lol: