signers

[judd]

why is it if you box a trifecta for (4 horses) for a $1.00= $24.00 and it hits over
$600 you have to sign when if you play $20 across on a 20-1 shot and get over
$700 you do not sign ??

[stu]

Rules for Tax Reports and Withholdings on Winnings

Slot machines and bingo: Payouts of $1,200 or more are reported to the IRS, but there is no withholding taken out.

Keno: Similar to slot machines, but the amount won must be at least $1,500.

State lotteries and sweepstakes: Withholding is taken out of all winnings of more than $5,000.

Parimutuel pools, including horse and dog races: Subject to withholding, but only if the winnings are both more than $5,000 and at least 300 times as large as the amount bet.

[judd]

thanks for replying--so on a $1.00 box and pays $800 one has to sign ?

[stu]

The Law review can be found below:

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/109218803770238434

The paper costs $44 for non-subscribers of "Gaming Law Review."

[sally]

If you played a $1 pick 4 straight (total cost $1) and it hit for $424.00 would you have to declare that? (if it was your tvg account).

[stu]

thanks for replying--so on a $1.00 box and pays $800 one has to sign ?

A $1 three-horse trifecta box is considered as six individual bets by the IRS:
five losers and one paying off in excess of 300-to-1 odds. Thus a signer.

[Pace Cap'n]

thanks for replying--so on a $1.00 box and pays $800 one has to sign ?

It was not a $24 bet. It was 24 bets at $1.

[judd]

it was a 4 horse box for a dollar (cost $24.00) today at phila
trifecta

[ezrabrooks]

it was a 4 horse box for a dollar (cost $24.00) today at phila
trifecta


Is that what Bobby is upset about? I pirated your avatar..and used it as my Fantasy Football Logo..just to tick the other teams off... It worked..

Ez

[jonnielu]

why is it if you box a trifecta for (4 horses) for a $1.00= $24.00 and it hits over
$600 you have to sign when if you play $20 across on a 20-1 shot and get over
$700 you do not sign ??

Gee Judd, You are really not supposed to ask questions like that. Keep it up and next thing you know, you will be asking why it is that you have to buy your freedom from the feds with a tax on your income in the first place.

Short answer is that the feds have never had a leg to stand on for collecting an income tax on ordinary citizens, so they have always done it with YOUR authority through third parties.

In the world of horse racing, to have each individual winning bettor sign the AUTHORIZATION form so that money could be withheld from each transaction would seriously curtail handle. The pari-mutuel facility might not be co-operative to that extent. So, as usual, the feds settle for conning you into believing that money won from pari-mutuel wagering is taxable, yet they will let you get away with a "certain" amount of it by only "requiring" the pari-mutuel facility to push an AUTHORIZATION form at you for winnings of 300-1.

This way, everybody is happy, and nobody is asking questions that the feds don't really want to answer truthfully.

But, while you are asking good questions, here is another one for you to ask -
What happens if you do not sign the form authorizing the track to withhold the money? If they are somehow authorized by the IRS, which is supposedly authorized somehow, why to they need you to authorize anything? Why doesn't the pari-mutuel facility simply withhold 20% from the entire handle and send that to D.C. for re-distribution? I mean, since it is all authorized..... or is it?

And there you have the problem with good questions... they often lead to more good questions.;)

jdl

[Pace Cap'n]

it was a 4 horse box for a dollar (cost $24.00) today at phila
trifecta

It was a $1 straight trifecta, with 24 permutations.

[jonnielu]

A $1 three-horse trifecta box is considered as six individual bets by the IRS:
five losers and one paying off in excess of 300-to-1 odds. Thus a signer.

And, you can take that agency's opinion, along with a dollar, and get a donut anywhere in town.

jdl

[judd]

thanks jonnielu
where have your ability picks been ??

[jonnielu]

thanks jonnielu
where have your ability picks been ??

Well, I've been thinking that it isn't fair to the subscribers to post them on the board. I should do a different track I guess. Should I look for one around philly, or what?

jdl

[JustRalph]

Ah, Bob Knight.......... another successful Buckeye.............

if he doesn't stop shooting his neighbors.............he is going to jail.... :lol:

[cnollfan]

why is it if you box a trifecta for (4 horses) for a $1.00= $24.00 and it hits over
$600 you have to sign when if you play $20 across on a 20-1 shot and get over
$700 you do not sign ??

The 300-1 on a $2 wager IRS rule was written 40+ years ago when the only form of exotic wagering available was the daily double and an occasional quinella/exacta/twin quin. At that time, it was a rare occurrence -- a few times per meet, rather than a few times per day. Although the rule is hopelessly outdated, good luck explaining to your congressman why gambling needs a tax break.

[onefast99]

Ah, Bob Knight.......... another successful Buckeye.............

if he doesn't stop shooting his neighbors.............he is going to jail.... :lol:
He is above the law...in most states.

[judd]

ya know another crazy signer that doesnt make sense

if you hit the 4-didget lottery number for 50 cents which pay $2500
you have to sign and fill out tax form
but in other sense you can play $10 (all $1.00 tickets) and get $5,000
and its all cash (3 didget number)
what logic do they make ???

[jonnielu]

The 300-1 on a $2 wager IRS rule was written 40+ years ago when the only form of exotic wagering available was the daily double and an occasional quinella/exacta/twin quin. At that time, it was a rare occurrence -- a few times per meet, rather than a few times per day. Although the rule is hopelessly outdated, good luck explaining to your congressman why gambling needs a tax break.

Better then that - Have your Congressman and/or the secretary of treasury determine whether or not you are within the jurisdiction of federal code title 26 in the first place.

[jonnielu]

ya know another crazy signer that doesnt make sense

if you hit the 4-didget lottery number for 50 cents which pay $2500
you have to sign and fill out tax form

authorization form

but in other sense you can play $10 (all $1.00 tickets) and get $5,000
and its all cash (3 didget number)
what logic do they make ???

What compels you to sign it??

[harnesslover]

I was a little stunned to find out that it's 300 times the base wager, not the cost of the ticket..

I hit an $824 tri at Penn National on a $6 ticket.. I had to sign.. I always thought it would have to be 300 times the wager ticket ($1800)

So under these idiotic rules, theoretically if you played a $2 8 horse trifecta box (not sure why you would but for sake of argument...) costing you $672, you could actually lose money on the wager and still have to sign?!?!?

[Pell Mell]

And, if you buy a ticket for $1,000. and it pays $600. they keep the ticket so you have no proof of the $400. loss on the bet.

[harnesslover]

And, if you buy a ticket for $1,000. and it pays $600. they keep the ticket so you have no proof of the $400. loss on the bet.

Unless you get audited it doesn't matter.. I have never had to provide proof of my losses I claim to offset the signers.

[Sailwolf]

And, if you buy a ticket for $1,000. and it pays $600. they keep the ticket so you have no proof of the $400. loss on the bet.

That's why you go home and photocopy the ticket and come by the next weekend

[Sailwolf]

Unless you get audited it doesn't matter.. I have never had to provide proof of my losses I claim to offset the signers.

I wonder if there are any IRS agents who look at certain websites?:jump:

[point given]

FINALLY - THEY GET IT !!!!!!!!!!!



NTRA to tackle taxes on gambling winnings



by Ed DeRosa (ederosa@thoroughbredtimes.com)

The National Thoroughbred Racing Association’s legislative agenda for 2008 includes a plan to eliminate automatic withholding for wagers paying off more than $5,000 as well as to increase the withholding level from $600 on wagers paying more than 300-to-1 to $1,500 on wagers paying more than 750-to-1...

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/December/06/NTRA-to-tackle-taxes-on-gambling-winnings.aspx

[judd]

when i do sign for horse winnings or lottery i offset my winning in declairing
same amount in losses (tax time end of year)
have never had a problem
its certain that the irs knows its not the ist time you bought a lottery ticket
or its the ist time you made a horse bet !

[ezrabrooks]

when i do sign for horse winnings or lottery i offset my winning in declairing
same amount in losses (tax time end of year)
have never had a problem
its certain that the irs knows its not the ist time you bought a lottery ticket
or its the ist time you made a horse bet !

And....the Service would also have reason to believe that the signers were not your only winners..

Ez

[trigger]

Unless you get audited it doesn't matter.. I have never had to provide proof of my losses I claim to offset the signers.

For IRS , Gambling losses can only offset gambling winnings if you do Schedule A....depending on your other income and deductible expenses and the amount of your winning payoff, it is not always a net 'win" for a taxpayer to complete Schedule A to offset gambling winnings.
Also, some states do not allow any offsets for gambling losses, so the entire amount of the tax ticket is taxed at the state income tax rates (if your state has an income tax). Also, sometimes the state tax rate on gambling winnings is higher than the regular state income tax rate.:bang:

[Imriledup]

FINALLY - THEY GET IT !!!!!!!!!!!



NTRA to tackle taxes on gambling winnings



by Ed DeRosa (ederosa@thoroughbredtimes.com)

The National Thoroughbred Racing Association’s legislative agenda for 2008 includes a plan to eliminate automatic withholding for wagers paying off more than $5,000 as well as to increase the withholding level from $600 on wagers paying more than 300-to-1 to $1,500 on wagers paying more than 750-to-1...

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/December/06/NTRA-to-tackle-taxes-on-gambling-winnings.aspx

The racing industry needs to be very aggressive on this issue and get this changed. How many times have you made a wager and lost money on the race and had to 'sign'? Also, think of a pick 6 syndicate who bets a 20,000 ticket into a carryover. All the chalk wins and the pick 6 pays 5k. Not only to they LOSE 15k on the ticket, but there's a signer and withholding. So, they don't even get their 5k back.

[delayjf]

And, if you buy a ticket for $1,000. and it pays $600. they keep the ticket so you have no proof of the $400. loss on the bet.
I believe the total amount of the bet is listed on the W-G they give you back when you cash and sign.

also,

It's been a few years since I've had to sign, but back then there was a loophole in that the 300-1 rule only applied to bets of 2 dollars and up - for 1 dollar wagers it was 600-1. Therefore a 2 dollar exacta paying 600.00 you have to sign for, but a 1 dollar exacta paying 400.00 you don't have to sign for. Has that changed?

[Pell Mell]

I have a buddy that only plays longshot exactas for $1 and I don't think he's ever had to sign and he catches them for $500. for a buck. The last w2 I got only listed the type of wager and didn't even have the amount of the wager.

[Pace Cap'n]

I have a buddy that only plays longshot exactas for $1 and I don't think he's ever had to sign and he catches them for $500. for a buck. The last w2 I got only listed the type of wager and didn't even have the amount of the wager.

He never will have to sign as long as they pay less than $600.

[spicytomato]

if i feel like its gonna be a real big pay


i just repeat ticket at the smaller price

like the 1 ex box.... 2 or 3 times if i really feel i got it

other than that

how many signers you got a year

because if you keepin all your tix and claim that too

dont think you gotta worry about signers

unless.......like some people.....you really make money

those some people have yet to be me

altho my brother had one 10c spr for over 700 payout
good race that was

good luck:ThmbUp: