Lowered Takeouts

[TEJAS KIDD]

Sam Houston lowered the takeout on Pick 3's to 12% a few years ago.
Retama did the same
Ellis Park lowered their Pick 4 takeout to 4% last season.

How many of you have complained about takeout rates?
How many of you have ever placed a wager on one of the aforementioned track's wagers?

We've all asked for some lowered takeouts and a couple of the smaller tracks have answered the question, yet, Sam Houston's Pick 3 pools averaged just $3900 yesterday (Ironically, the Pick 4 pools at a 25% takeout average more, go figure).
Where are you MR. or MRS. TAKEOUT COMPLAINER (I'm not gender biased)? What makes you think that a major track is going to follow suit?
I am calling you out. They built it, but you haven't come. I am going to approach Sam Houston management and ask them if they can guarantee a $25,000 pick 3 pool sometime in December. WILL YOU SHOWUP?
I'll keep you posted if and when this happens.

[pandy]

I'll play a $25k guaranteed Pick 3 with 12% takeout.

[shanta]

I am going to approach Sam Houston management and ask them if they can guarantee a $25,000 pick 3 pool sometime in December. WILL YOU SHOWUP?


YES :)

[Robert Fischer]

The takeout is the fee I pay to be able to wager against the public. I happily pay that fee.
If the fee gets unreasonable, I won't play. Fortunately the fee is reasonable at the Major tracks that I tend to focus on. I am not a huge fan of smaller pools and smaller purses.

I want larger pools. I want the game on tv and I want everybody to put their dollars in the pot. Then I will pay 30% if need be for such an opportunity.

[joeyreb]

I don't play Sam Houston's Pk 3 or Pk 4 because the payouts are so low

[spilparc]

Ellis Park lowered their Pick 4 takeout to 4% last season.



Very true, and I told everybody I knew all about it while I was in Vegas. Problem was, I couldn't find one casino that took action on the Ellis Park Pick 4.

[TEJAS KIDD]

I don't play Sam Houston's Pk 3 or Pk 4 because the payouts are so low

Do you mean the payouts are too low or the pools are too low?

[rrbauer]

Sam Houston lowered the takeout on Pick 3's to 12% a few years ago.
Retama did the same
Ellis Park lowered their Pick 4 takeout to 4% last season.

How many of you have complained about takeout rates?
How many of you have ever placed a wager on one of the aforementioned track's wagers?

We've all asked for some lowered takeouts and a couple of the smaller tracks have answered the question, yet, Sam Houston's Pick 3 pools averaged just $3900 yesterday (Ironically, the Pick 4 pools at a 25% takeout average more, go figure).
Where are you MR. or MRS. TAKEOUT COMPLAINER (I'm not gender biased)? What makes you think that a major track is going to follow suit?
I am calling you out. They built it, but you haven't come. I am going to approach Sam Houston management and ask them if they can guarantee a $25,000 pick 3 pool sometime in December. WILL YOU SHOWUP?
I'll keep you posted if and when this happens.

These small-pool promotional takeout reductions such as the ones referenced are just that. They make good PR. And, they do very little towards the overhaul that is needed industry wide to get takeout lowered.

I played the ELP P4 for about a month in support of that reduction, but the quality of some of those races was very poor and it's a circuit that I'm mostly out of touch with. The other two mentioned, Sam Houston and Retama, I've never played a race at either place and showing up for a single P3 event at a completely unfamilar venue with a $25K pool is not my idea of time or money well spent.

That said, I'm not trying to discourage you from working towards reduced takeout and you have my moral support. What you're doing is more than what 99.9% of the horseplaying crowd is willing to do.

[TEJAS KIDD]

These small-pool promotional takeout reductions such as the ones referenced are just that. They make good PR. And, they do very little towards the overhaul that is needed industry wide to get takeout lowered.

I played the ELP P4 for about a month in support of that reduction, but the quality of some of those races was very poor and it's a circuit that I'm mostly out of touch with. The other two mentioned, Sam Houston and Retama, I've never played a race at either place and showing up for a single P3 event at a completely unfamilar venue with a $25K pool is not my idea of time or money well spent.

That said, I'm not trying to discourage you from working towards reduced takeout and you have my moral support. What you're doing is more than what 99.9% of the horseplaying crowd is willing to do.

These tracks did make a good pr move with the hopes that it would attract more players to play their races. Sure, the whole industry needs to work towards an overhaul of the system, but ROME wasn't built in a day. They've made the first move but the players haven't showed up. Maybe if we all start supporting these tracks then others would follow suit. How can the others justify the lowered takeout if noone shows up? Sam Houston has rolling pick 3's (they just didnt lower the takout on a single wager like Ellis) If I didnt already play Sam Houston, it certainly would be appealing to me.
I understand when you say you wouldnt be interested in playing into the guaranteed pool. For your same reason, I'm not interested in those guaranteed pools in California.

[joeyreb]

Do you mean the payouts are too low or the pools are too low?

Both

Last year I hit 2 pk 3's and the late Pk 4 at Sam Houston one night, and didn't net $150 combined....

[BombsAway Bob]

While TVG hasn't shown Sam Houston Race Park on Air Yet , they carry them via streaming video, & I regularly play small Pick-3 tickets. Similar to Suffolk, Evangeline, & other "cheap claimer" tracks in racing product, the 12% takeout allows you to eat a favorite on a $6 ticket & still get a 15/1 return!
While I won't start the Pick-3 with the chalk singled, I'll live with them in the middle or last leg. It's a stubborn rule I stick with; I WILL NOT SINGLE A FAVORITE that's 2/1 or less in the first leg of a Pick-3 (or Pick-4).
Don't get me wrong; if I play the sequence, chances are the fave will be ONE of my first-leg choices, but to single them almost guarantees an UNDERLAY in payout! Many disagree, & I tear up many online wagers as a result. :bang:
BUT when I do score,the Payout makes it ALL WORTHWHILE!:lol:
Good Luck & "They're off and racing!":jump: -Bob www.myspace.com/bobgrant3 (http://www.myspace.com/bobgrant3)

[JustRalph]

It's a damn shame what has happen to Sam Houston. I looked at a card last week and after two races I found something better to do. I couldn't believe how small the pools were. I have just recently started playing multi race wagers and I couldn't believe how small even the win pools were.

Great facility.......good service and it sits there like it's invisible from the freeway. Hell, I even like the race caller!

Anybody who hasn't been there, if you get down that way. Try it out. I haven't been for about two years........it was great for a couple of days.
Saturday morning in the Jockey club for a breakfast buffet and great service with private windows etc was I think 8 bucks. Lunch buffett was cheap too. No more than twenty guys playing all day in a very nice private room. After five you can go downstairs and play in the simulcast room for a couple of bucks a table for the night. Good turf racing too............

[Bobzilla]

While thumbing through my official Breeders' Cup track program at Monmouth I noticed on one of the earlier pages an add purchased by Sam Houston Race Park, expressing their desire to hold the 2010 Breeders' Cup. I was a little surprised. I'm really not familiar with the track at all. Would this track have a realistic chance for serious consideration on the part of the Breeders' Cup to hold this event? Seems the BC would like to internationalize their brand and a smaller traditional dirt oval in Texas would not appeal to the Euros, unfortunately.

A little off the original topic, and I apologize, but seeing the reference to Sam Houston I thought I'd mention it. As for the original topic, I for one, would participate in a one day special Lowered takeout P3 or P4 at a track like Sam Houston or Retama, at the very least to lend moral support. However, as I'm primarily a NY player, in the long run I need to play what I'm familiar and comfortable with, at least until the takeout in NY becomes so userous I'm completely squeezed out, which might actually happen in 2008 depending who ends up with the franchise.

[njcurveball]

As this thread evolves I am wondering what people consider

"played into lower takeouts".

Personally I did not play into the Laurel Meet or the Ellis pick 4. Perhaps I am the exception? Those pools were very low, so for the people who are voting that they played into lower takeouts, perhaps a short list of which ones and how much of your play they got would be good to get a consensus?

I guess if you bet $10,000 on the day and put $2 into the Ellis Pick 4 you could technically say the same thing?

If over 70% of this board is doing it, than those tracks must be doing something right.

[1st time lasix]

The pools for the late Ellis Pick four grew substantially last year as the word got out. I played it and watched the pool sizes grow.

[DeanT]

I played the ELP pick 4 every day. How could I not? It was the lowest rake bet in the history of racing.

How good was I? Not good. I didnt know anything about ELP. I handicapped fairly poorly. But I have a salient point (I think): I put $x in an account to play it. I got my balance down low several times. I went back and looked after all was said and done: If the rake was 25% I would have went broke after about two weeks. I had hit three or four pick 4's and the extra money I received kept me afloat. I churned tons of cash into the bet that I never would have bet because I would have been broke.

For the people that chose "dont pay attention to takeout" I would say go back through records and calculate your wins and losses, then calculate them with zero rakes. It is an eye opener.

That was a fun exercise for me, and if anyone does the same thing next year I will be there. As with most lower hit rate bets, you need a score and some luck. I lost a couple five figure paydays by head bobs. One bob my way and I would say I was a winner, but at least the low rake kept me in the game with a chance at cashing. I cant say that about 30% pick 4 tracks. They are not there for me as a customer, they are there to squeeze as much as they can out of me, and I will not stand for it as a player.

[BillW]

As for the original topic, I for one, would participate in a one day special Lowered takeout P3 or P4 at a track like Sam Houston or Retama, at the very least to lend moral support.

The 12% pick-3 has been in place for a few years and applies to all 7 of the rolling pick-3's on the card (starting with the 2nd race) i.e. not just a one time thing.

[rrbauer]

These tracks did make a good pr move with the hopes that it would attract more players to play their races. Sure, the whole industry needs to work towards an overhaul of the system, but ROME wasn't built in a day. They've made the first move but the players haven't showed up. Maybe if we all start supporting these tracks then others would follow suit. How can the others justify the lowered takeout if noone shows up? Sam Houston has rolling pick 3's (they just didnt lower the takout on a single wager like Ellis) If I didnt already play Sam Houston, it certainly would be appealing to me.
I understand when you say you wouldnt be interested in playing into the guaranteed pool. For your same reason, I'm not interested in those guaranteed pools in California.

There's a reason that some tracks traditionally have low pools. Clearly, the main reason is for lack of handle. The causes for that may be location, the time-window that their races are run in, the competition from other tracks running in the same time-window, the competion for the gambling dollar from other venues in their geographical area, the racing product itself; or, any combination of those and other causes.

Horseplayers are creatures of habit. Our priorities towards which circuits we follow and gamble at are deeply ingrained. You have your reasons for playing Sam. I have my reasons for not playing Sam. And, it sounds like takeout is not a major reason for either of our preferences where Sam is concerned.

To me, strictly as an outsider looking in, Sam would do well to reduce the number of P3's it is offering to see if the pool sizes increase. Attracting more people (and dollars) to fewer P3's should increase the pools and with the lower takeout result in higher payoffs. There's a limited number of P3-dollars that show up on any given day and expanding the number of pools for those dollars simply dilutes the size of the pools. And, that's what you're experiencing today.

[rrbauer]

I played the ELP pick 4 every day. How could I not? It was the lowest rake bet in the history of racing.

How good was I? Not good. I didnt know anything about ELP. I handicapped fairly poorly. But I have a salient point (I think): I put $x in an account to play it. I got my balance down low several times. I went back and looked after all was said and done: If the rake was 25% I would have went broke after about two weeks. I had hit three or four pick 4's and the extra money I received kept me afloat. I churned tons of cash into the bet that I never would have bet because I would have been broke.

For the people that chose "dont pay attention to takeout" I would say go back through records and calculate your wins and losses, then calculate them with zero rakes. It is an eye opener.

That was a fun exercise for me, and if anyone does the same thing next year I will be there. As with most lower hit rate bets, you need a score and some luck. I lost a couple five figure paydays by head bobs. One bob my way and I would say I was a winner, but at least the low rake kept me in the game with a chance at cashing. I cant say that about 30% pick 4 tracks. They are not there for me as a customer, they are there to squeeze as much as they can out of me, and I will not stand for it as a player.

As I see it, a couple object lessons from your experience:

1. Lowered takeout equals higher payback when you win and extends the bankroll.
2. Lowered takeout equals squat when you lose and contracts the bankroll.

Staying afloat means that the rate of winning must exceed the rate of takeout. And, therein lies the rub where Ellis is concerned from my perspective. My handicapping and my approach to building P4 plays at Ellis was not good enough to capitalize on the takeout-reduced payoffs that resulted there. Hence, after a month, I lost interest.

[TEJAS KIDD]

While thumbing through my official Breeders' Cup track program at Monmouth I noticed on one of the earlier pages an add purchased by Sam Houston Race Park, expressing their desire to hold the 2010 Breeders' Cup. I was a little surprised. I'm really not familiar with the track at all. Would this track have a realistic chance for serious consideration on the part of the Breeders' Cup to hold this event? Seems the BC would like to internationalize their brand and a smaller traditional dirt oval in Texas would not appeal to the Euros, unfortunately.

A little off the original topic, and I apologize, but seeing the reference to Sam Houston I thought I'd mention it. As for the original topic, I for one, would participate in a one day special Lowered takeout P3 or P4 at a track like Sam Houston or Retama, at the very least to lend moral support. However, as I'm primarily a NY player, in the long run I need to play what I'm familiar and comfortable with, at least until the takeout in NY becomes so userous I'm completely squeezed out, which might actually happen in 2008 depending who ends up with the franchise.

Yes I believe that Sam Houston is trying to get the BC. The facility is much smaller than Lone Star Park, so I don't think they would be able to handle the crowd. Lone Star has 3 floors of grandstand and 2 floors of suites. Sam Houston has 2 floors of grandstand and only 1 floor of suites. The turf course is amazing, though. Probably one of the nicest in the country. They only race on it 3 days a week and only a maximum of 6 races a week. That's why it's in such great shape from opening day to closing day.

[DeanT]

As I see it, a couple object lessons from your experience:

1. Lowered takeout equals higher payback when you win and extends the bankroll.
2. Lowered takeout equals squat when you lose and contracts the bankroll.

Staying afloat means that the rate of winning must exceed the rate of takeout. And, therein lies the rub where Ellis is concerned from my perspective. My handicapping and my approach to building P4 plays at Ellis was not good enough to capitalize on the takeout-reduced payoffs that resulted there. Hence, after a month, I lost interest.

Most definitely.

I was the same way. After a couple of weeks I went thru stats etc, but with no background on some of the horses and trainers I was lost. After the meet I downloaded all of the cards and results files and went through them. I know what my mistakes were and figured out a plan of attack. I hope they offer it next year. I am pretty confident I can beat 4% now.

As an aside: The ELP meet helped me at TPX. I played that meet and did fairly well. I like poly as a rule, but I had never played TPX. Knowing some of the trainers and connections helped.

[jma]

Most definitely.

I was the same way. After a couple of weeks I went thru stats etc, but with no background on some of the horses and trainers I was lost. After the meet I downloaded all of the cards and results files and went through them. I know what my mistakes were and figured out a plan of attack. I hope they offer it next year. I am pretty confident I can beat 4% now.

As an aside: The ELP meet helped me at TPX. I played that meet and did fairly well. I like poly as a rule, but I had never played TPX. Knowing some of the trainers and connections helped.

Great posts both of you. It's hard to blindly support low takeout at tracks with poor racing just to do it, but at 4% it's hard to go wrong. I found it worth it financially to learn something about Ellis to play the Pick 4s. However, Sam Houston's 12% Pick 3, while not a bad deal, is just not worth the time. Maybe it's because my nights are busy lately, maybe it's because I knew a little about the Kentucky circuit but little about Texas, maybe because I like the Pick 4 more...a combination of those things. Still, betting those low takeouts would be *the right thing to do*, if only to hopefully get the larger tracks to take notice.