Why DON'T they raise min jock weights to 116?

[harnesslover]

I was watching the REAL Sports espisode last night about the 2 jocks who died from basically starving themselves and the push for minimum jock weights to 116 from 110 was discussed as well.

I was a little curious as to the truth or lunacy to D Wayne Lucas's comments that 'even a few extra pounds on these horses could cause a lot more breakdowns'. (Not to mention that he basically said if they can't keep their weight down, they can go f themselves and find another line of business)

Is there truth to this? Does the added 'risk' of breakdowns of horses outweigh the safety of the jocks?

Is it simply that the owners/trainers could give a shit about whether the jocks are killing themselves or not?

[ddog]

I was watching the REAL Sports espisode last night about the 2 jocks who died from basically starving themselves and the push for minimum jock weights to 116 from 110 was discussed as well.

I was a little curious as to the truth or lunacy to D Wayne Lucas's comments that 'even a few extra pounds on these horses could cause a lot more breakdowns'. (Not to mention that he basically said if they can't keep their weight down, they can go f themselves and find another line of business)

Is there truth to this? Does the added 'risk' of breakdowns of horses outweigh the safety of the jocks?

Is it simply that the owners/trainers could give a shit about whether the jocks are killing themselves or not?

for some reason I saw that show and when they paraded out D Wayne "run em till they break" Lucas the statements he made were breathtaking in their hypocrisy.


raise the weights to 125 if the horses can't hold up under that then kill the "sport".

that ain't the jockies fault anyway, not many of them are breeders and/or owners last I checked.


just another bunch of tired b.s. as to weights.

[gillenr]

A good rule of thumb is that "trainers lie".
This subject(jockey weight problems) has been discussed at great length here in the past. Just do a search.

[jballscalls]

i love that horse racing is the only sport where a guy as big as me, can complain when a 125 lb guy is 7 lbs overweight LOL

[harnesslover]

i love that horse racing is the only sport where a guy as big as me, can complain when a 125 lb guy is 7 lbs overweight LOL
No kidding.. I was talking to my wife last night about that.. I said if my manager required me to come in 35 lbs lower than my ideal weight, I would be fired so fast my head would spin.

[GaryG]

I doubt that I am the only one who wanted to stick a pitchfork in Lukas after his comments. Randy Romero was the best rider to come out of Louisiana IMHO. Also a fine person and I wish him the best.

[46zilzal]

D.Wayne, the breakdown KING, give a damn? Hardly, he just goes back to the stable (excuse me historically he did that until everyone figured him out) and grabbed another million dollar yearling to ruin.

[Dahoss9698]

While I don't think a few extra pounds would hurt horses in general, Lukas is spot on with the other comment. Not everyone can be a jockey and if you can't make the weight, maybe you shouldn't be. Look I'd love to be a pro basketball player. Unfortunately I didn't have the size. What happened with Romero is tragic, but it was his choice.

[jotb]

Hello all:


I miss that show last night but I think I watched it before and I felt that Lukas should not have made that comment. Everyday you have exercise riders that work horses and they are much more than 125lbs. I believe the weight increase would not lead to more breakdowns but on the other hand if they raised the weights you would have many more riders trying to become jocks and right now we have about 2k jocks in the country already. Lastly and sad to say but there are many trainers out there that could care less about the jocks safety.

Joe

[alysheba88]

While I don't think a few extra pounds would hurt horses in general, Lukas is spot on with the other comment. Not everyone can be a jockey and if you can't make the weight, maybe you shouldn't be. Look I'd love to be a pro basketball player. Unfortunately I didn't have the size. What happened with Romero is tragic, but it was his choice.

Lukas is a heartless m.....fer

No one is saying anyone should be a jockey or that weights should be 175.

A few extra pounds is all anyone is asking.

Why not just reduce weights to 95 using your and Lukas's logic.

Where is the humanity and common sense? I mean dont people understand that jockeys need to have some strenght here to handle 1200 pound animals? Are they supposed to have that at 101 pounds?

[kenwoodallpromos]

"If you cannot maintain a woman's weight you cannot ride in a man's sport".
There has never been a study correlating jockey or carry weight to breakdowns or injuries, or either one to horse's weight or muscle mass.
I have never heard of assigning a different weight to a TC horse based on weight or height of the horse. "The fish" Real Quiet probably carried the same weight in the KY Derby as SIlver Charm because weights are based on age and sex of the horse etc.
When 4-7 lbs are added to the assigned weight because the calendar changes from Dec 31 to Jan 1 I do not believe there is any other consideration other than a *.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"
Scroll to race: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 View Printing Notes


1st Race - Churchill Downs - Wednesday, November 21st, 2007 MAIDEN CLAIMING. 1 1/16 Mile Dirt. Purse $14,000. FOR MAIDENS, THREE YEAR OLDS AND UPWARD. Three Year Olds, 120 lbs.; Older, 123 lbs. Claiming Price $15,000, if for $12,500, allowed 2 lbs. (12:40 PM) (13)
Wager Types: Daily Double / Exacta / Trifecta / Superfecta Pick 3 (RACES 1-2-3) Pick 4 (RACES 1-2-3-4
Handicapper's Selections: 8,4,9,11
# Horse Odds Jockey Wgt A/S M/E Trainer
1 Willie's Turn (KY) 20/1 Fernando De La Cruz 115 3 G L James R. Girdley
2 Daddy's Lilpunkin (KY) 12/1 Rene R. Douglas 123 4 G LA Bobby C. Barnett
3 Riley's Revenge (KY) 50/1 Diego Rodriguez 110 3 C LA Jerry Orm
4 Our Friend Rick (KY) 7/2 Larry J. Sterling, Jr. 120 3 G LA David M. Carroll
_____________
Here is a 10 lbs difference in 3 yr olds. for bug and conditions.
I see on various programs at other tracks, differences of between 1-5 lbs for "older", and 108-123 swing for 3 yr olds depending on track, race, bug, and condtions.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Hello all:


I believe the weight increase would not lead to more breakdowns but on the other hand if they raised the weights you would have many more riders trying to become jocks and right now we have about 2k jocks in the country already.
Joe


This has always been my arguement.
If you had a limit at 120 then guys that naturally weighed 130, would reduce to get to 120. If you have a limit at 130, then guys that naturally weigh 140 would reduce to 130. It would never end. The horses don't have a choice in the matter. They are forced to carry what ever we put on their backs. The jockeys, however, have the choice to become jockeys. They have the choice to stick their fingers down their throats and "Flip" their meals to make their riding weight. Noone shoves them in the sauna and padlocks the door behind them. They are responsible for their actions. There are plenty of careers for short men in this world. They don't have to be jockeys. Some day,there may even be a remake of "THE WIZARD OF OZ". They could work at least one day a year on March 17th.

[northerndancer]

No matter what you do with weights there will always be the issue of starvation, flipping, taking lasix, sitting in the hotroom, etc. You can raise the weight to 125 lbs and all you will do is the ex rider or exercise rider who now weighs 140 lbs will starve themselves to get back in the game. Therefore we will continue to debate how much weight is too much for the horse.

I do not agree with the statement that horses should not carry more weight and that weight carried correlates to breaksdowns. I believe that breakdowns are caused by pedigree, conditioning, nutrition, track condition and careless attitude by exercise riders before any consideration to weight.

Does increasing the weight scale by 5 lbs correct the problem...... for some current jockeys it will but again all you do is invite another group of jockeys who can not maintain the new weight...... vicious cycle.

You can not protect people from themselves...... therefore the lure of big paydays being a jock will make them do unthinkable things to themselves to make weight.

[alysheba88]

This has always been my arguement.
If you had a limit at 120 then guys that naturally weighed 130, would reduce to get to 120. If you have a limit at 130, then guys that naturally weigh 140 would reduce to 130. It would never end. The horses don't have a choice in the matter. They are forced to carry what ever we put on their backs. The jockeys, however, have the choice to become jockeys. They have the choice to stick their fingers down their throats and "Flip" their meals to make their riding weight. Noone shoves them in the sauna and padlocks the door behind them. They are responsible for their actions. There are plenty of careers for short men in this world. They don't have to be jockeys. Some day,there may even be a remake of "THE WIZARD OF OZ". They could work at least one day a year on March 17th.

Dont buy it. Same as Lukas's argument.

Your Wizard of Oz comments show your true agenda here.

Those jockeys are ten times more athletic then you will ever be

Yes there will always people trying to reduce no matter what the weights are. But at least get it to a humane level. No one but no one is talking about having 150 pound jockeys.

I mean sure the

[alysheba88]

Why not make the weights 85 pounds then? Or 90? Since you appear to be saying it doesnt matter what they are, that some will always reduce why not just make it as low as possible.

That "vicious cycle" stuff just doesnt wash. People use variations of that to quash change on a variety of issues inside and outside the sport. We are talking about health here. Raising the weights by 5-6 pounds wont stop the bigger jockeys from doing extreme things. But would reduce the number of them having to do it.

Why is everything all or nothing? That if you cant "solve" the problem entirely in all cases for all jockeys that we should just sit back and do nothing?

[GaryG]

I would like to see the SCW increased by the percentage that the average adult has grown since those weights were carved in stone. The average man was 5 feet 8 not long ago. I will look it up when I get the time.

[harnesslover]

How was 110 the weight that was decided in the first place? Was this just an arbitrary # or was it a weight that was needed in order to 'fit' the horse so he would be at least risk to break down?

And to propose a possibly dumb question, as humans have generally gotten bigger over time, are horses at the same weight/strength as they were 20,30,50 years ago?

[Dahoss9698]

Lukas is a heartless m.....fer

No one is saying anyone should be a jockey or that weights should be 175.

A few extra pounds is all anyone is asking.

Why not just reduce weights to 95 using your and Lukas's logic.

Where is the humanity and common sense? I mean dont people understand that jockeys need to have some strenght here to handle 1200 pound animals? Are they supposed to have that at 101 pounds?

Humanity and common sense? If you want to discuss this as an adult, I am more than willing, but let's be realistic. Of course no one is saying reduce the weights to 95. My point was the very first thing in being a jockey is being the right size. There are people who are naturally the size. And those who have to work at it. You'll just be having 140 pound people flipping and trying to lose weight to become a jock.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Your Wizard of Oz comments show your true agenda here.

Those jockeys are ten times more athletic then you will ever be





What is my true agenda?
This is my agenda.
The motive for raising weights should always be for the health of the horse and not the human on their back.

I wasn't bashing jockeys. I know jockeys are athletes and in addition,underpaid. I've never said they weren't athletes. Lighten up, I was just adding a bit of humor (Wizard of Oz). Really, I don't think it matters to add 5 pounds to the horses. That's a very small amount considering their size. I'm all for that. I'm wouldn't raise the weights because of the jockey's weight reducing health problems. What I was stating is that it won't matter for the health of the human pilot, because there will always be jockeys trying to make weight.

[harnesslover]

What I was stating is that it won't matter for the health of the human pilot, because there will always be jockeys trying to make weight.

I think there comes a time when a certain weight is simply unhealthy and it has nothing to do with commitment or work ethic.

If you set a weight that is guaranteed to create health problems for most jocks, is it really a matter of commitment or common sense?

[alysheba88]

Humanity and common sense? If you want to discuss this as an adult, I am more than willing, but let's be realistic. Of course no one is saying reduce the weights to 95. My point was the very first thing in being a jockey is being the right size. There are people who are naturally the size. And those who have to work at it. You'll just be having 140 pound people flipping and trying to lose weight to become a jock.

Why not reduce it to 95? I am serious. If people are taking the approach that the current weight is fine, why not lower? If not lower, why not?

What is the "right size"?

And yes I do believe it is a humanity and common sense issue. How is that not acting like an adult?

[alysheba88]

What is my true agenda?
This is my agenda.
The motive for raising weights should always be for the health of the horse and not the human on their back.

I wasn't bashing jockeys. I know jockeys are athletes and in addition,underpaid. I've never said they weren't athletes. Lighten up, I was just adding a bit of humor (Wizard of Oz). Really, I don't think it matters to add 5 pounds to the horses. That's a very small amount considering their size. I'm all for that. I'm wouldn't raise the weights because of the jockey's weight reducing health problems. What I was stating is that it won't matter for the health of the human pilot, because there will always be jockeys trying to make weight.

But that makes no sense. Raising it five pounds will tremendously help CURRENT jockeys. Sure it wont help those who are way over the weight now. But how could it not help current jockeys?

[the_fat_man]

Where is the humanity and common sense? I mean dont people understand that jockeys need to have some strenght here to handle 1200 pound animals? Are they supposed to have that at 101 pounds?

What's interesting is that, other than when they race, these 1200 pound animals are handled by riders typically quite a bit heavier than jockeys. The added weight translates to added strength (excepting the female exercise riders.) So not only are jockeys expected to be lighter than exercise riders, they also need to be stronger ---and exercise riders are typically very strong.

The job really should be for those who can naturally make the weight.

[alysheba88]

What's interesting is that, other than when they race, these 1200 pound animals are handled by riders typically quite a bit heavier than jockeys. The added weight translates to added strength (excepting the female exercise riders.) So not only are jockeys expected to be lighter than exercise riders, they also need to be stronger ---and exercise riders are typically very strong.

The job really should be for those who can naturally make the weight.

Very true. Larry Jones rides many of his horses. Other trainers do too. Hell Jack Van Berg used to, maybe he still does now, do not know

[chickenhead]

If the main requirement for the job is: "you must be a dehydrated midget" is it any surprise there are many less than stellar jockeys? Open up the pool to as many people as possible, within reason, and you'll get better, healthier riders. ANY increase is going to help...2lbs, 3lbs, 5lbs, makes a difference.

[Robert Fischer]

One approach, is to look at the major money generating tracks. Have some good people go out and observe the jockeys , height/weight , health review etc..
From there if necessary, conservatively adjust the minimum weight in an effort to help the money jocks. If they need 5 more pounds - fine! Take care of the money.

[SMOO]

I would like to see the SCW increased by the percentage that the average adult has grown since those weights were carved in stone. The average man was 5 feet 8 not long ago.

:ThmbUp:

[equicom]

Lukas may be a great trainer in terms of his strike rate and all that, but his statement was partly based in ignorance. Besides, anyone who has the sheer amount of choice that Lukas has in terms of quality and numbers is bound to get a good strike-rate. If you had a few of his horses in your stable, you'd probably do quite well too. And very few of the "Lukas" horses actually get his personal attention. Most of them are trained by assistants.

Horses do not break down because they are carrying a few extra pounds on their backs (OK, maybe some do if you put ridiculous amounts, but in the normal racing range, no!). Horses break down because they are pushed harder than their level of fitness or natural ability can handle. They break down because ignorant trainers think that Lasix is some sort of wonderful cure-all. And they break down because ignorant jockeys often fail to recognize the signs in the horse that it is over-stressed and then they don't take evasive action. The win-at-all-costs mentality is very much to blame here.

In Australia, horses regularly work with much more weight than they would carry in a race. Sometimes well over 130lbs. But they don't break down with anywhere near the frequency that American horses do, and the track records are often better here... so why? It's not really because the trainers are all that much better, but I would guess that the much larger pool of trainers does tend to dilute the talent over there. I think a very large part of the reason is that we don't use Lasix. Using Lasix to prevent bleeding is like putting a bandaid on a zit. It covers up the problem to some extent but doesn't address the underlying cause.

Research shows that about 90% of horses are bleeders. They bleed internally after fast work or races, and it is only when this bleeding reaches the stage of epistaxis (where blood is visible at the mouth and nose) that the horse gets banned. Over-stressing the body accentuates this problem, and I am talking from personal experience because as a child I used to get bleeding in the lungs when running.

The use of Lasix allows trainers to run horses that are not properly fit to handle the stress of racing. The horses don't usually break down due to bleeding, because the Lasix suppresses that to some extent. Instead they break down because the fatigue produced by their efforts, or the pain from lactic acid build up, or the sheer difficulty of pulling in enough oxygen to sustain them, causes them to become unco-ordinated and put a foot down wrong, or to start veering off the line (ironically causing the jockey to pull the whip to try and get back on course). Imagine 1000lbs of horse doing the equivalent of a twisted ankle at speeds approaching 40mph... what do you think is gonna happen?

The point is that if it wasn't for the Lasix, the horse wouldn't have made it that far. Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is irrelevant. The main issue is that horses that are fit enough to race will not break down, and virtually every horse that does break down is either because they were not fit enough to handle the task or because the track was too hard.

I was also shocked when I was in Canada to see the number of trainers that would run horses that were visibly injured in races. Shocked also that the punters would often let these same horses start favorite! And I'm curious as to why the stewards, jockeys, trainers, owners, and betting public will stand for this? Why don't the stewards say "hey that horse looks a bit dodgy, let's get the vet to check it out" ? Why doesn't the jockey say "sorry boss, the horse isn't sound, I can't ride him" ?

[Tom Barrister]

Just get rid of the jockeys altogether. Use a mechanical lure like the greyhound tracks do: put a bale of hay on it, open the gates, and let the horses chase it.

The weight system does need to be raised somewhat to compensate for the fact that humans have gotten bigger.

I don't buy the argument that a bit more weight will be detrimental. If the trainers take better care of the horses and don't treat them like expendable livestock, they'll hold up to another 5-10 lbs. Times will be a bit slower, but that's happening with most polytrack anyway.

[Pell Mell]

No mention of steeplechase horses going 2 miles and more with 150+ on them and jumping fences to boot.:confused:

[jma]

I would like to see the SCW increased by the percentage that the average adult has grown since those weights were carved in stone. The average man was 5 feet 8 not long ago. I will look it up when I get the time.

Well put, and very simple. Of course you will have people still trying to make weight, but let's at least make it realistic for the modern human to have a shot at making weight without starving themselves. Though the 140-pound rider MAY try to starve themselves down, I'd rather think of the current riders who might be able to live a bit more normal life.

[kenwoodallpromos]

From About.com-
"http://horseracing.about.com/library/blscale.htm"
I doubt many tracks follow this exactly!

[TEJAS KIDD]

?


I think that horses are breaking down because of claiming races. If we had no claiming races then trainers/owners wouldnt force their horses to run in order to "bail out" by letting some poor sucker jump in and claim them. I was unfornate enough to be a poor sucker a few years ago. I dropped a claim in a filly for 10k at LSP. She ran 2nd the day we took her from a top trainer. We picked her up after she was done at the test barn and she could barely make it back to our barn. The next morning she could barely walk. We took xrays and she had chips in one of her front ankles. We did right by the horse and paid to have them removed. She never recovered and within a few months we were forced to put her down.

[Kelso]

I wasn't bashing jockeys. I know jockeys are athletes and in addition,underpaid.

If they were truly underpaid, they wouldn't be riding. They get as much as they can get from owners who pay as little as they can pay. Just business ... among free adults.

[PaceAdvantage]

I watched the piece....it was about 90% old material that I've seen on Real Sports before, including the Lukas interview.

I'd really like an explanation from those who want to up the weights....how is this going to stop a brand new wave of jockey wannabees from doing the same exact damage to themselves that the current batch is inflicting?

I don't understand the rationale. The whole point of raising weights is the belief that this will help the current batch of jockeys lead a more normal life. Yup, I think we can all agree this would be a GOOD thing.

BUT, it's going to create another batch of flippers and self-abusers and the problem WON'T be solved. As you know, NOT ALL JOCKEYS flip and abuse their bodies.

If you raise the weights and fix it for some, you simply end up creating a new group of folks whom Bryant Gumble can run a story about in a couple of years. What is the purpose?

Is there a shortage of jockeys? (Pun?)

[alysheba88]

If its always going to be a problem then why not decrease weights? No one can answer that one. When you think about the answer why not it should lead to a little flexibility regarding todays weights (which for some reason appear to be etched in stone- unalterable)

[Shenanigans]

I personally know jockeys that are 5'7'' and have no business being jockeys. Their "healthy" weight should be in the 165-170# range. Raising the weight limit would too encourage too large of exercise riders to think about reducing to ride. Raising weights for jockeys is no different than lowering the basket in basket ball so the smaller guy would have a fair shake at playing too.:rolleyes: It's nuts.
I wanted to be a jockey at one time, but after gaining muscle from galloping I realized I wouldn't make a good one. Reducing to the right weight I wouldn't have enough strength to finish in a race - that making me a mediocre rider. No thanks. These jockey know what they are getting into, they made the choice so they must live with it or find another occupation.

As for Lukas' comment, he does have a point. Sure, exercise riders do weigh more than jockeys, but very rarely do you see a 150# exercise rider working a racehorse. They only gallop (which is a difference in working). Speed is the recipe for a breakdown. The faster the horse goes, the more stress is put on the bones. Added weight increases the stress. There is a reason why trainers raise hell when their horse is handicapped 130.
You Lukas bashers need to do a little research on other trainers before calling him "breakdown King". I know a few trainers (Steve Asmussen for example) that have far more horses dying out of their barns than Lukas, and not all of them are breakdowns but also heart attacks and the such. The reason you hear more of Lukas' breakdowns is because of the media attention he always had around him.

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=TEJAS KIDD]I think that horses are breaking down because of claiming races. If we had no claiming races then trainers/owners wouldnt force their horses to run in order to "bail out" by letting some poor sucker jump in and claim them. I was unfornate enough to be a poor sucker a few years ago. I dropped a claim in a filly for 10k at LSP. She ran 2nd the day we took her from a top trainer. We picked her up after she was done at the test barn and she could barely make it back to our barn. The next morning she could barely walk. We took xrays and she had chips in one of her front ankles. We did right by the horse and paid to have them removed. She never recovered and within a few months we were forced to put her down.[/QUOT
The claiming game is one of the most difficult games in the world today. How many Lava Mans have you seen in the 50k claiming box that go out and win 3m in purse monies? Not many right? Some trainers are pros at this game they put in horses who look great on paper and when they are claimed rarely does anyone do well with them. The fact that you need to ask a lot of questions and know the right people to claim a horse is the only way to claim. Horses have run well with chips in the knees or ankles and associated problems before. The fact that horses are given shots to help them thru this pain has been part of the game since it began. Go to any barn and look at some of the horses, you may even see a few standing in ice buckets to take the pain off the ankles. If you are going to claim know the horse,trainer and owner and see if any red flags are up especially suspicous drops! If it were easy everyone would do it! Losing a horse is terrible, no one wants to do that luckily you were in it for 10k we lost one that cost us $150k and we are a small stable.

[ddog]

I personally know jockeys that are 5'7'' and have no business being jockeys. Their "healthy" weight should be in the 165-170# range. Raising the weight limit would too encourage too large of exercise riders to think about reducing to ride. Raising weights for jockeys is no different than lowering the basket in basket ball so the smaller guy would have a fair shake at playing too.:rolleyes: It's nuts.
I wanted to be a jockey at one time, but after gaining muscle from galloping I realized I wouldn't make a good one. Reducing to the right weight I wouldn't have enough strength to finish in a race - that making me a mediocre rider. No thanks. These jockey know what they are getting into, they made the choice so they must live with it or find another occupation.

As for Lukas' comment, he does have a point. Sure, exercise riders do weigh more than jockeys, but very rarely do you see a 150# exercise rider working a racehorse. They only gallop (which is a difference in working). Speed is the recipe for a breakdown. The faster the horse goes, the more stress is put on the bones. Added weight increases the stress. There is a reason why trainers raise hell when their horse is handicapped 130.
You Lukas bashers need to do a little research on other trainers before calling him "breakdown King". I know a few trainers (Steve Asmussen for example) that have far more horses dying out of their barns than Lukas, and not all of them are breakdowns but also heart attacks and the such. The reason you hear more of Lukas' breakdowns is because of the media attention he always had around him.

hint ratio of STARTERS to breakdowns

[onefast99]

We had the international jocks here at the Meadowlands in September and they are in the 140# range and all the horses seemed ok with it.

[ddog]

I watched the piece....it was about 90% old material that I've seen on Real Sports before, including the Lukas interview.

I'd really like an explanation from those who want to up the weights....how is this going to stop a brand new wave of jockey wannabees from doing the same exact damage to themselves that the current batch is inflicting?

I don't understand the rationale. The whole point of raising weights is the belief that this will help the current batch of jockeys lead a more normal life. Yup, I think we can all agree this would be a GOOD thing.

BUT, it's going to create another batch of flippers and self-abusers and the problem WON'T be solved. As you know, NOT ALL JOCKEYS flip and abuse their bodies.

If you raise the weights and fix it for some, you simply end up creating a new group of folks whom Bryant Gumble can run a story about in a couple of years. What is the purpose?

Is there a shortage of jockeys? (Pun?)

yes that logic applies , but so does the fact that everyone is getting larger, i think anyway over time.
maybe it would open up the population of peole that could be jockies AT a more"normal"(shudder) weight for THEM?

[stu]

With the second condition book at Alb this season, I shifted the weights from 122/117 to 123/120 for thoroughbred races without any complaints from horsemen.

In the past year or so, some racing secretaries have increased the quarterhorse weights from 124/122 to 126/123. This increase wasn't uniformly welcomed by the horsemen.

There is only so much change that the horsemen will tolerate. The rate of change has to be slow or it won't be accepted.

[Pace Cap'n]

If its always going to be a problem then why not decrease weights? No one can answer that one. When you think about the answer why not it should lead to a little flexibility regarding todays weights (which for some reason appear to be etched in stone- unalterable)

Decrease the weight and you will most likely decrease strength. Decrease the strength and it will create unsafe conditons. Additionally, it would shrink the pool of available jockeys, with many of the most competent no longer able to compete.

As far as chasing a bale of hay, anyone ever see the Three Stooges at the races where they gave their horse a bottle of hot sauce and then ran around in front of it in a pickup with a bucket of water?

[Dahoss9698]

If its always going to be a problem then why not decrease weights? No one can answer that one. When you think about the answer why not it should lead to a little flexibility regarding todays weights (which for some reason appear to be etched in stone- unalterable)

No one is answering it because it's a stupid premise. It's not realistic and it makes no sense to do. You are just looking for a pointless arguement.

[TEJAS KIDD]

If they were truly underpaid, they wouldn't be riding. They get as much as they can get from owners who pay as little as they can pay. Just business ... among free adults.

When I say underpaid, I mean in relation to other professional athletes.

[TEJAS KIDD]

I wanted to quote Shenanigans comments about Asmussen. He was the trainer we claimed that filly from. I'll never take another horse from a trainer that rules the roost like he does at LSP. Who knows what kind of crap he gets away with up there.
I've actually been pretty successful since that filly, as I vowed never to claim a horse in the blind again (I looked at her PP's but never saw her on the track) This year 4 claims, 4 3-1-0 1st after claim. Looking to make the % better tomorrow night at RP with Screen Writer.

[ezrabrooks]

With the second condition book at Alb this season, I shifted the weights from 122/117 to 123/120 for thoroughbred races without any complaints from horsemen.

In the past year or so, some racing secretaries have increased the quarterhorse weights from 124/122 to 126/123. This increase wasn't uniformly welcomed by the horsemen.

There is only so much change that the horsemen will tolerate. The rate of change has to be slow or it won't be accepted.

Stu,

What is the highest condition weight put on an actual runner this meet at the A-Downs?

Ez

[jotb]

I wanted to quote Shenanigans comments about Asmussen. He was the trainer we claimed that filly from. I'll never take another horse from a trainer that rules the roost like he does at LSP. Who knows what kind of crap he gets away with up there.
I've actually been pretty successful since that filly, as I vowed never to claim a horse in the blind again (I looked at her PP's but never saw her on the track) This year 4 claims, 4 3-1-0 1st after claim. Looking to make the % better tomorrow night at RP with Screen Writer.

Good luck with Screen Writer but that looks like a big class hike. Do they write 10k races? I was wondering if Doocy was your first choice or Nena? I know she is in the race but has done well with Screen Writer.

Joe

[TEJAS KIDD]

Good luck with Screen Writer but that looks like a big class hike. Do they write 10k races? I was wondering if Doocy was your first choice or Nena? I know she is in the race but has done well with Screen Writer.

Joe

Yes, Doocy was our 1st choice, he rides for us regularly. Yes they do write 10k races. I think the last one either didnt fill or it was too soon for us to come back. We did try to go in a Sa10000 or Sa12500 that didnt go. I think the last 15 in the book didnt go either, and now we're in with 11 others(go figure). We claimed the horse to have some runners at Sam Houston/Delta Downs, that's why we didnt go back in the 7500. Hopefully we'll get a piece of the pie tomorrow. I'm getting a piece of pie after dinner. Happy Thanksgiving.

[stu]

Stu,

What is the highest condition weight put on an actual runner this meet at the A-Downs?

Ez

From memory, the highest weight in a QH handicap to run was Gotta Get at 125. The highest weight in a TB handicap to run was Tempting Date at 124.

In overnight races, several aged thoroughbreds carried 121 (two pounds off the base of 123). Several aged thoroughbreds carried 122 (two pounds off the base of 124).

It is not uncommon in New Mexico for all non-sex/non-age weight allowances to be waived voluntarily by horsemen. On top of that trainers are allowed to use riders who are seven pounds over the program weight. I am sure we had a least a few mounts this year that carried in the upper 120s.

With Tryptophan- and Chardonay-impaired memory,
Stu

[Shenanigans]

hint ratio of STARTERS to breakdowns


Hint: Amount of horses coming out of a trainers barn dropping dead on the track in the morning for no apparent reason. You don't hear much of that happening with any Lukas horse, but it isn't uncommon for an Asmussen horse (or some other trainers):rolleyes: . You just never hear about it because it's usually at a lesser track and a less expensive animal. I promise you some of the "top" trainers out there today have more "blood" on their hands than Lukas ever did. They just don't have the media coverage like he did.

[Shenanigans]

I wanted to quote Shenanigans comments about Asmussen. He was the trainer we claimed that filly from. I'll never take another horse from a trainer that rules the roost like he does at LSP. Who knows what kind of crap he gets away with up there.
I've actually been pretty successful since that filly, as I vowed never to claim a horse in the blind again (I looked at her PP's but never saw her on the track) This year 4 claims, 4 3-1-0 1st after claim. Looking to make the % better tomorrow night at RP with Screen Writer.

He gets away with a lot. That's not the only track either.;)

[ddog]

Hint: Amount of horses coming out of a trainers barn dropping dead on the track in the morning for no apparent reason. You don't hear much of that happening with any Lukas horse, but it isn't uncommon for an Asmussen horse (or some other trainers):rolleyes: . You just never hear about it because it's usually at a lesser track and a less expensive animal. I promise you some of the "top" trainers out there today have more "blood" on their hands than Lukas ever did. They just don't have the media coverage like he did.


you are correct, if the horse dropped dead not in a race I would not account for it in my stats.
i would "expect" more breakdowns from "cheaper" stock that is true.
I guess I need to control for that as well.

I will keep an open mind on this but I am leaning DW way.

[ezrabrooks]

From memory, the highest weight in a QH handicap to run was Gotta Get at 125. The highest weight in a TB handicap to run was Tempting Date at 124.

In overnight races, several aged thoroughbreds carried 121 (two pounds off the base of 123). Several aged thoroughbreds carried 122 (two pounds off the base of 124).

It is not uncommon in New Mexico for all non-sex/non-age weight allowances to be waived voluntarily by horsemen. On top of that trainers are allowed to use riders who are seven pounds over the program weight. I am sure we had a least a few mounts this year that carried in the upper 120s.

With Tryptophan- and Chardonay-impaired memory,
Stu

Stu, thanks for the information. Those 'top' weights surprised me a little, as I thought your handicap horses might carry a little more. I pay more attention to horses up or off with weight from one race to another, rather than particular weights assigned.

I was a little surprised that your increase in scale was more opposed by the quarter horse people...as I thought it would be the TB people complaining.

Again, I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

Ez

[equicom]

We don't get that many horses dropping dead during races or trackwork in my neck of the woods. I think it has only happened one time, actually. Usually racing or work related deaths are due to taking a bad step and snapping something. Also in Summer our turf tracks can be as hard as concrete, which was demonstrated by Three Crowns in the 1998 Melbourne Cup when he snapped his leg mid-cannon to fetlock and had to be destroyed.

Something very intriguing... stewards will cancel races because of a bit of rain, but not when it is 120 degrees in the shade. I think any trainer who runs his horse in extreme heat should be locked up, but I doubt I'll get a lot of support for that view.

Main reason why we need such light jockeys is probably because of the economics of racing. Breeders and owners won't allow a horse to have 3 to 4 years in the paddock to mature properly...

"In one of these skeletons (I am almost certain it was Eclipse) all the vertebrae stood perfectly clear, except for a couple at the end which had adhesions, probably caused by old age. The other skeletons all had bony extoses, due it was thought, to carrying more weight than they could cope with in the early days of training. Eclipse, it was pointed out, never had a saddle on until he was four years old." Rickaby, F (1967) - Are Your Horses Trying? : J.A Allen & Co., London. Page 76.

[alysheba88]

No one is answering it because it's a stupid premise. It's not realistic and it makes no sense to do. You are just looking for a pointless arguement.

A stupid premise? People have no problem vehemently arguing the current weights are "fair" and should be not be higher. So why not lower?

[alysheba88]

Decrease the weight and you will most likely decrease strength. Decrease the strength and it will create unsafe conditons. Additionally, it would shrink the pool of available jockeys, with many of the most competent no longer able to compete.

As far as chasing a bale of hay, anyone ever see the Three Stooges at the races where they gave their horse a bottle of hot sauce and then ran around in front of it in a pickup with a bucket of water?

So weight, strength and safety are all related? Shrinking the jockey pool too?

I happen to agree on all counts.

[equicom]

Actually, with regard to the above, it is kind of silly to think that more weight = more strength = more control. Control is about sensitivity, not brute force (although there are still a few jockeys to learn this). Monty Roberts won his first trophy at the age of 3, not on a miniature pony but on a 15.2h TB cross that reportedly weighed in around 1100lbs.

You wanna tell us that a 3yo kid is stronger than a 30yo jockey?

Well, of course Monty is very modest and gives all the credit to the horse, but the point is that there are plenty of kids out there that are better riders than some jockeys, and they don't weigh anything close to 100lbs. So it is not about how big you are, or how strong you are, but how well balanced and in control you are.

Hauling on the bit, contrary to popular belief, is not how you slow down or stop a horse. When you see a jockey with his hands up near his chin and the horse's mouth gaping, that just means he's a bad jockey with no balance, not that he's doing a good job of holding his horse up.

I'm not saying that you can't stop a horse by hauling on the reins, but that it won't usually work. A long steady pull only results in pain, and if the horse cannot switch that pain off, the logical reaction is fear, resulting in a bolt, or that the horse will look for some other way to stop the pain, eg. buck you off.

[alysheba88]

Then lets lower the weights and put 3 year olds on the horses

[njcurveball]

A race germane to this discussion was run in New York yesterday. Horses carrying 130+ pounds and the extra was lead weights (harder to carry than human weight).

The times looked reasonable to me and if they did not list weight I would not have been able to guess they went slower than expected.

Anyone who does a variant may be able to say just what the effect of carrying 130+ pounds was in terms of time?

The splits were 21.92, 45.12, 109.9.

The winner Grand Champion and the runner up Joey P were separated by a head. If weight is not included, how do their speed figures from this race stack up against their other races?

[equicom]

Then lets lower the weights and put 3 year olds on the horses


Don't see why not. Apparently in the 1920's they had this novel idea of putting monkeys on the back of greyhounds as "jockeys". Unfortunately monkeys are not quite expert at this "talent" and would sometimes fall off the dogs, with predictable consequences (I won't go into detail, for the sake of the squeamish).

[njcurveball]

Apparently in the 1920's they had this novel idea of putting monkeys on the back of greyhounds as "jockeys". .

Rumor has it the leading trainer stuck a banana in the boot of a $100 winner. :D

[Pace Cap'n]

Actually, with regard to the above, it is kind of silly to think that more weight = more strength = more control. Control is about sensitivity, not brute force (although there are still a few jockeys to learn this). Monty Roberts won his first trophy at the age of 3, not on a miniature pony but on a 15.2h TB cross that reportedly weighed in around 1100lbs.

You wanna tell us that a 3yo kid is stronger than a 30yo jockey?

Well, of course Monty is very modest and gives all the credit to the horse, but the point is that there are plenty of kids out there that are better riders than some jockeys, and they don't weigh anything close to 100lbs. So it is not about how big you are, or how strong you are, but how well balanced and in control you are.

Hauling on the bit, contrary to popular belief, is not how you slow down or stop a horse. When you see a jockey with his hands up near his chin and the horse's mouth gaping, that just means he's a bad jockey with no balance, not that he's doing a good job of holding his horse up.

I'm not saying that you can't stop a horse by hauling on the reins, but that it won't usually work. A long steady pull only results in pain, and if the horse cannot switch that pain off, the logical reaction is fear, resulting in a bolt, or that the horse will look for some other way to stop the pain, eg. buck you off.

Strength, as in being able to stay aboard, and have enoungh in reserve to be able to impart your wishes. This, from having read of jockeys who, while starving themselves in a successful weight loss attempt, became too weak to stay on the horse. In some cases, to stay concious. Who said anything about pulling on the reins?

[alysheba88]

Yes three year olds are great judges of pace, reading a form, and other mental tasks.

[ghostyapper]

Is there truth to this? Does the added 'risk' of breakdowns of horses outweigh the safety of the jocks?

Absolutely since an "added risk of breakdowns" has a much greater negative affect on the safety of the jockeys then the 110 lb limit.

[Kelso]

When I say underpaid, I mean in relation to other professional athletes.


Understood. But other pros attract more attention (read TV ratings) than do jocks. That translates into more money for owners/promoters to pay the help. But, I think, the fact remains that jockeys - just as other pros - operate in a free market and any price set in a free market is, definitively, a correct price... not over, not under.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll say it again:

The whole point of raising minimum weights is to make life easier for jockeys. A GOOD THING.

BUT, raising minimum weights WON'T ELIMINATE the problem it is trying to solve....jocks abusing their bodies to make weight. That's because with the higher minimum weights, comes a brand new class of folks who will kill themselves to make weight while striving to ACHIEVE THEIR DREAM of being a professional jockey.

It's a no brainer to me. Leave as is, unless the whole point is to simply make life easier for CURRENT jockeys, and screw whomever else comes along in the future looking to go down the treacherous path of bulimia, anorexia and halitosis.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Why not raise the weights to 220. I've always wanted to be a jockey. I think I could drop 20 pounds to make weight.

[ddog]

I'll say it again:

The whole point of raising minimum weights is to make life easier for jockeys. A GOOD THING.

BUT, raising minimum weights WON'T ELIMINATE the problem it is trying to solve....jocks abusing their bodies to make weight. That's because with the higher minimum weights, comes a brand new class of folks who will kill themselves to make weight while striving to ACHIEVE THEIR DREAM of being a professional jockey.

It's a no brainer to me. Leave as is, unless the whole point is to simply make life easier for CURRENT jockeys, and screw whomever else comes along in the future looking to go down the treacherous path of bulimia, anorexia and halitosis.

let's help the ones we can now.

no reason to hold the good hostage while we wait for the perfect.

[ddog]

I'll say it again:

The whole point of raising minimum weights is to make life easier for jockeys. A GOOD THING.

BUT, raising minimum weights WON'T ELIMINATE the problem it is trying to solve....jocks abusing their bodies to make weight. That's because with the higher minimum weights, comes a brand new class of folks who will kill themselves to make weight while striving to ACHIEVE THEIR DREAM of being a professional jockey.

It's a no brainer to me. Leave as is, unless the whole point is to simply make life easier for CURRENT jockeys, and screw whomever else comes along in the future looking to go down the treacherous path of bulimia, anorexia and halitosis.

and while your at it , if everyone(?) is so concerned about the health of these brave little guys then why not have an industry sponsored HEALTH plan and doctor cert every week with testing as to the jockies fitness to participate.

OOPs, now we are not THAT concerned you dolt.

[Shenanigans]

and while your at it , if everyone(?) is so concerned about the health of these brave little guys then why not have an industry sponsored HEALTH plan and doctor cert every week with testing as to the jockies fitness to participate.

OOPs, now we are not THAT concerned you dolt.


Well, while you're at it, why not put stiffer drug regulations on the drugs that are being administered to the horses that the little men ride too? Why not put the hammer down on the cheating trainer that runs his crippled horses hopped up on who knows what? If I was a jockey, I don't think I would be bitching about raising weights as much as I would be bitching about the illegal (and over used legal) drugs that are being pumped into the horses I'm riding - but what's the old adage - "Don't shit in your nest".:rolleyes: That's why jocks NEVER voice their opinion on that subject.

[ddog]

Well, while you're at it, why not put stiffer drug regulations on the drugs that are being administered to the horses that the little men ride too? Why not put the hammer down on the cheating trainer that runs his crippled horses hopped up on who knows what? If I was a jockey, I don't think I would be bitching about raising weights as much as I would be bitching about the illegal (and over used legal) drugs that are being pumped into the horses I'm riding - but what's the old adage - "Don't shit in your nest".:rolleyes: That's why jocks NEVER voice their opinion on that subject.


I would vote for that.
far as I am concerned no drugs for the horses would work for me.
now the jockies, that's another story.

Sometimes grown-ups have to step up and push for rational changes!

:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

and while your at it , if everyone(?) is so concerned about the health of these brave little guys then why not have an industry sponsored HEALTH plan and doctor cert every week with testing as to the jockies fitness to participate.

OOPs, now we are not THAT concerned you dolt.As long as you don't raise the takeout, I'm all for anything that helps the jockeys. There's PLENTY of money floating around out there to take care of EVERYONE. It's just horribly misappropriated (with the state getting way too big a slice).

And on a side note, did you just call me a dolt?

[northerndancer]

How come it is everybody's other than the jocks responsibility to police themselves?

If the jocks themselves really wanted to increase the weights all they would have to do is force the issue by refusing to ride...... but alas it is not that important of an issue to the body of jocks........ the jockeys want it every way and not be responsible for making it happen....... they want their heath, life & dnetal insurances paid by the industry...... they want all the advertising revenue for themselves while on the back of a horse..... they want the ability to cancel races whenever the room is persuaded by the top jocks (never in a democratic way)....... they want higher riding weights....... they want the lions share of the purse for winning and also be paid a tidy sum for finishing dead last.......

When will this all end...... when do the jocks stand up and take responsibility for their own fate...... oh yeah they did that with the jocks guild and where did that get them.